Gunner

[danielm60660]

Hello all. New guy here. I have a Cushing's dog. Gunner is a nearly 10 year old pitbull x. He was diagnosed about 4 months ago and treated with Lysodren. He was re checked and his ACTH was showing a slight increase, so the vet started a second 5 day induction phase. About a week after that, he started with increased urination, decreased appetite and lethargy. We took him back in and his ALT liver value was very chart high.

We will be doing an ultrasound Monday to look at his internal organs, but the traditional vet has mentioned cancer.

I am working with an herbalist who feels like he has essentially a "congested liver" and is providing us with an alternative treatment (AT/BC drops and Artemisinin ?sp). Obviously, I would prefer this to cancer. I am wondering if anyone had seen liver issues post-induction phase (particularly if there has been a second induction phase).

Some relevant info:
1. My dogs are raw fed which helps his allergies. Some have mentioned that raw feeding in an older dog can be too hard on the digestive system. I have no problem dealing with allergies if raw is not going to work for him.

2. He had an ultrasound when all this started and was diagnosed with hepatitis. There was a nodule which they tried to aspirate. They were unable to hit the nodule, but the tissue around it showed infection/inflammation I believe.

3. I have asked them NOT to do core biopsies with this ultrasound due to the risk of anesthesia. If there are numerous nodules we will assume the worst and treat very aggressively with alternatives. (I have been down the chemo path with bad results. I doubt I would go there again.

4. These symptoms started right after we ran out of AT/BC. I had a problem getting it for about a week. Since we have him back on it, he seems slightly better. He is only eating real turkey or turkey cat food. Last night he ate half a can of dog food with tripe and vomited it up an hour later. (Too rich too soon?)

So that's about all I can think of. Thank you for taking the time to read all of this.
DM

[lulusmom]

Hi Daniel and welcome to you and Gunner

With the lack of appetite and lethargy, please do not give Gunner any more Lysodren. I have a whole lot more questions than feedback at the moment. It would help us to provide you with meaningful feedback and sharing experience if you would please get your hands on all of the testing that was done by your vet to diagnose Gunner with cushing's and post the results here. There are overlapping symptoms between primary liver disease and cushing's, with PU/PD (excessiving drinking and peeing) being one of them. What other symptoms did Gunner have that lead your vet to suspect cushing's.

When was hepatitis diagnosed and how long after that was cushing's diagnosed. Was it infectious hepatitis? Diagnostic tests such as the ACTH stimulation test and the LDDS test are more than likely to yield false positive results if you are dealing with liver disease.

I had a dog with hepatitis and I almost lost her. She was in the hospital on IV fluids for several days. She came home with a whole lot of medications, including antibiotic and liver support, and it was a a good four month recovery. I can't remember the name of the liver support but suspect it was Adenosyl. I am a rescuer and I've had a number of dogs precribed Adenosyl for a myriad conditions that negatively impact the liver and cause severe elevations in ALT.


A dog with primary liver disease doesn't become symptomatic until 75% of liver function is gone. At that point, toxins can build up and make a dog very sick. Protein restrictions are usually not necessary until this point. What has your vet said about the vomiting and extreme lethargy?

I have never heard of the herbal remedies you have Gunner on. Can you tell us what they are and how they work to improve liver function? Also, what is a congested liver?

Sorry for all the questions but it will help if you can provide as much information as possible.

Glynda

[danielm60660]

He was initially diagnosed and treated for infectious hepatitis with antibiotics. He first went in for the drinking, urinating, loss of hair etc. The regular vet ruled out cushing's by ultrasound being normal, but the specialist saw the thin skin and pot belly as classing cushing's. He was also very hungry all the time.

His diagnosis of cushing's was right on the heels of the liver stuff and was done by ACTH stimulation testing. After the induction phase, he did show improvement of all symptoms.

He had an ultrasound when the liver was first looked at and it showed a small nodule in the liver. They were unable to hit it with the fine needle, but the cells near the nodule showed inflammation. The antibiotics did nothing to help his symptoms.

He is having another ultrasound as I type this and that will tell us more. I asked that he not be sedated due to the increased risk of anesthesia problems in cushinoid dogs.

I called the vet yesterday. I told them about him vomiting his food Saturday. I gave him little bits of turkey all day yesterday and he did vomit a little of that about noon. I let him settle his stomach and in the evening yesterday, he had a strong appetite and kept a little turkey down.

He is on denamarin from the regular vet.

I talked to the vet about this and they said to hold off on any meds (including pred) until today after the test. If he had been vomiting constantly, I was to bring him in. He vomited again

Artemisinin is called Qinghaosu in Chinese. It is sweet wormwood extract and Artemisia annua. It is used in cancer cases and immune issues.
AT/BC (by Quantum herbal) has red clover, burdock root, Oregon grape root, yellow dock root and a few other things. It serves to detoxify the blood and support the liver.

He is also sending a liver tonic which I don't have yet.

The herbalist I work with is Mike at Wag Your Tail in Chicago.

I'm not totally educated on how these things work, but he is very helpful if you can get him on the phone and loves to explain things.

I will leave it to the reader to google him lest someone suspect spam (I hate it too).

I am also in the field. I am a trainer and recently opened a non profit (K94Keeps.org).

I have used alternative treatments from Mike on three other animals and they have all outlasted the vet's estimates, so I think he can help.

Thanks for the response. I hope we can get him fixed up. He's been with me his whole life, literally.

DM

[danielm60660]

The ultrasound showed signs of hepatitis. His liver is smallish. There are no nodules, and aspirates were taken for further testing.

There was no core biopsy as I didn't want him sedated. Also, the vet said his liver may be too small to get a core biopsy (couldn't reach it under the rib cage).
Please discuss your previous point of hepatitis causing a false positive for cushing's.

Thanks,
DM

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi DM,

A belated welcome to you and Gunner! :) I fell in love with Gunner on your fourth sentence...a Pitbull X. I love Pittys and was privileged to share a couple of years with a female Pitty (or Pitty mix - vets differed on whether she was full or mix and I never had DNA done.) Crys taught me what a delightful, loving breed the Pitbull is and I am a staunch defender of them now.

I can't address the specifics of hepatitis and its affect on cushing's tests but I can give you the basics.

Cushing's is a condition in which the body is over-producing hormones, most commonly cortisol. Now, here's the tricky part about cortisol - it is one of the body's natural responses to stress of any kind, internal or external. Cortisol is one of the "fight or flight" hormones, triggered when the body perceives an "enemy". In Cushing's, a tumor either in the pituitary gland or the adrenal(s) makes the body think it is under constant attack so cortisol is continually released.

However, when there is a real "enemy", cortisol is also released. When testing is done to try to diagnose Cushing's, those tests cannot tell if the cortisol is present at an abnormally high level because of a malfunction in the pituitary or adrenal(s), or if it is there because the body is actually under attack.

Point in case - my Squirt was diagnosed with PDH (pituitary based Cushing's) based on five tests - the LDDS, HDDS, ACTH, UTK panel and ultrasounds (2). However, when she had the second U/S, I was told about a tumor on her spleen. Once that tumor was removed, her cortisol returned to normal and has remained within normal range since. That surgery was in Sept. of '08.

The tumor on her spleen caused her body to release excess cortisol; that excess cortisol (which was the normal response under the circumstances) caused the testing to come back positive for PDH; removal of the tumor rendered the diagnosis of PDH invalid because the splenic tumor was the root cause of the excess cortisol.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang