Been there, Done that:Harley has crossed the bridge

[StarDeb55]

I had not started a thread for Harley as of yet in the hopes that cc.net would return from the internet nether regions, but looks like that is going to be awhile, so I figured it's time.

When we last left off, Harley had another episode of GI upset, not nearly as severe as his gallbladder attack last fall, but due to some confusion with what my GP vet wanted to do with his lysodren dosage, along with the illness, I went ahead & had him stimmed about 5 weeks early. I must back up to refresh all of our memories about the lyso dosage. About 6 weeks ago, I discovered that Harley had dropped from 14 lbs. to 12.4 lbs for no apparent reason. With the weight loss, that put his current weekly lyso dose of 300 mg., at that point, over max dosage at 54 mg/kg. The GP vet told me that lyso had been know to cause weight loss, so he cut the weekly dose to 225 mg. Harley got sick about a week after the change in dose. With the stim, I also had a chem panel drawn as I was concerned about a possible kidney issue as I had noticed that Harley appeared to be drinking a lot of water, again. Anyway, the stim came back at 7.1 which was slightly lower than Feb.'s result. Harley has been fine running with a post of 7, & the vet doesn't want to attempt to take him lower because of the pre-existing gallbladder condition. Prior to the stim being done, the vet wanted to increase the lyso dose back to what it was. My response was, "HUH:confused:, if this is a Cushing's crash, don't we want to drop the dose even further?" The vet was insistent that it needed to be increased, so that's when I insisted on the stim. The chem panel did show an increased BUN, but a perfectly normal creatinine. When monitoring kidney function, you do look at both numbers, but the creatinine is the more important of the 2. The interesting thing was that Harley's T4 came back at 0.3. After talking to the vet, he added on the free T4 to make sure we weren't looking at a case of sick euthyroid. MIRACLES OF MIRACLES, Harley's free T4 came back perfectly normal. It's about time, the little guy & Mom caught a break.:D;)

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

I think Wylie is taking cues from Harley - Wylie had his GB attack end of Sept/beginning of Oct, I think about a month after Harley - and last week Wylie had some GI upset. It wasn't as bad as last time, he recovered more quickly, and based on an ultrasound, the IMS said it was not a GB attack or pancreatitis. I think I'm gonna have to keep up with your thread to anticipate what's gonna happen to Wylie:p.

-Susy

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Debbie,
Good to hear Harley (and You) caught a break.

Now bear with me here for a second, the way I understand this is that the vet wanted to increase the dosage but due to your insistance a stim was done (5 weeks early) and a T4 along with a free T4 and since all came back okay. The dosage will remain the same (not increased) as the vet wanted to do in the first place?

Why did the vet think the dosage should be increased before the stim was performed?

This stuff is so complicated, I'm just trying to understand better, I'm glad you guys and gals are here.

John (Roxee's Dad)

[StarDeb55]

Frankly, John, I don't understand the vet's line of reasoning to this day, & neither did Glynda. If there was any suspicion that this GI upset was Cushing's related, the dosage should have been cut down even further than what we had done the week before. I was so confused at that point in time, I felt more comfortable running the stim early to see just exactly where we were, rather than blindly adjusting the dose. This is especially true in light of the weight loss. So right now, the dosing scenario was the following:

Prior to weight loss: 300 mg/week, with a weight of 14 lbs., was 46.9 mg/kg. With the weight loss this dose now shot up to 54 mg/kg.

With the weight loss: 225 mg/week with a weight of 12.4 lbs., was 40.2 mg/kg.

With a stim result having dropped just a hair since Feb. '09, 7.4->7.1, I think, I suggested going up to 250 mg/ weekly, 44.6 mg/kg, the vet was agreeable to this dose. I was also concerned about dropping his mg/kg dose to 40 or lower as the little twerp unloaded on me late last summer when he was at something like 37 mg/kg. I actually, now, split his dose up as 75 mg, 100 mg, & 75 mg on a M, W. Fri. schedule.

The vet is the one who brought to my attention that lyso can cause weight loss, so I wasn't about to let him talk me in to going back up to 300 mg./weekly, especially with no stim. I had thought for about 6 weeks or so, that Harley just looked "bony" & felt "bony" to me. Petting him, you could clearly feel his hip joints, vertebrae, you name it. He had to go in for his rabies shot which is how we discovered that my suspicions about his weight were correct. The vet is the one who ordered the T4, which came back really low at 0.3. I think you have been reading enough to know that Cushpups can have a falsely low T4 reading due to sick euthyroid syndrome, so this is why the free T4 was done. It was perfectly normal, so we aren't dealing with hypothyroid, too.

I'm sure this is as clear as "mud". I still get very confused at times dealing with this dratted disease. I don't know what I'd do if I hadn't had the prior experience with Barkley, my lab tech background, or if I hadn't found all my friends at CC.net.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Debbie,

How is Harley feeling and doing weight-wise now? Maintaining, gaining...???? Munchie will gladly share his baby scale with Harley!!! :D

Louise

[StarDeb55]

Hi, Louise! Harley acts like he feels pretty darn good. Can't give you a specific answer about the weight, I will probably run him in for a weight check tomorrow. I do think that he doesn't feel or look quite as "bony" as he did.

Debbie

[lulusmom]

Hi Deb,

I'm happy to hear that Harley is doing much better. I think your plan to up the dose a bit is a sound one and I'm glad your vet agrees.

I was aware that dogs treated with Lysodren lose the weight they gained before treatment due to overeating, fluid retention and redistribution of fat but I have never read anything that mentions weight loss as a side effect of long term use of Lysodren. The next time you see your vet, can you ask him if this is based on his experience or is it something he researched. I am particularly interested because Lulu's weight has been up and down for the past nine months and both of the IM's she has seen in that time never mentioned Lysodren as a possible cause for her weight loss. :confused:

I really need to start a thread myself so I can share Lulu's experience here. It's been interesting to say the least. For a change, Jojo seems to be stable.

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

Whooo Hoooo!

No more "skinny Minnie" for my boy, he weighed 13.0 lbs. this afternoon. This is up from 12.3 lbs. He still needs to gain about 1 lb.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

Good new Debbie,

I hope he continues to improve.

Scott

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

No more "skinny Minnie" for my boy, he weighed 13.0 lbs. this afternoon. This is up from 12.3 lbs.

Good going, Harley!! Keep up the good work. :D

Louise

[Barney's Mom]

Wow Debbie, that's awesome! 0.7 pounds is pretty significant for a little guy like Harley! Keep up the good work mom!

Cheryl

[StarDeb55]

I picked up all of the most recent labs from 3 weeks ago, & it get's even better. I am grinning from ear to ear on this one.

ALT results-
2/5/09-304
4/7/09-67
Normal Range: 12-118

Alk Phos:
2/5-876
4/7-681
Normal Range: 5-131

Substantial improvement in the little twerp's liver function. He may, just yet, outlive me.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

My Harley's grinnin with ya:D:D:D
Good job Debbie Congrats with the good news:)
Lori

[forscooter]

Deb...

SO glad you got good news!!!!:D:D:D

You certainly deserve it! You have worked so hard for it! Congrats from all of us here!!!

Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Deb,
Great news.....:D:D:D Congrats....:D:):D:)

Since I can't go back on your thread.. Is Harley on any supplements like milkthistle or is controlling the cortisol bringing down his ALK and wow what a drop in the ALP.:D

John (Roxee's Dad)

[StarDeb55]

John, milk thistle, given daily.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

That's great news, Debbie!
Way to go Harley!:D

[StarDeb55]

DOUBLE YAHOOOOOO!!!

Yesterday's weight check was 13.7 lbs, so Harley is back up to his "fighting weight".:D

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

Good Job Harley and Mom:D:D

That's almost a pound and a half:D Very good to hear:D

John (Roxee's Dad)

[Barney's Mom]

Oh Deb, that is so good to hear!!!!!!!!!


Barney and Cheryl

[StarDeb55]

Well, the hard earned weight gain may not hold up for long. It's hunger-strike central at my house for pretty much the last 4 days. The only thing I've gotten Harley to eat is his Evo kibble mixed with meat flavor baby food for 2 meals. He wouldn't touch that tonight. I've tried both the beef & chicken canned food I have. Beef was mixed with kibble, chicken had nothing else. The little snot looked at me like he was highly insulted. I have tried, I think 2 or 3 different brand of canned food over the past month. He will eat them for about 2 weeks, then quit. This includes Merrick's which he ate really well for over 5-6 months last fall. I really don't think it's his teeth because he just had a dental in 2/09. He would not even touch the NutriCal paste tonight. When he gets to about day 4 of this, Mom starts getting stressed. I guess I will go across the street to Whole Foods in the morning & check out what they have to offer in the way of canned food.

At least, Chewbacca will eat anything I put down. As long as that boy gets 2 squares a day, plus treats, he's a happy little boy.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Debbie,

How frustrating and worrisome for you!! Sure hope you can find something over at Whole Foods that will make Harley's taste buds happy.

Good luck on your quest!

Louise

[Wylie's Mom]

Would he eat boiled chicken breast with rice? That's Wylie's favorite (but of course, he also really liked it when I gave him the nasty, stinky raw green tripe).

Harley sounds like my neighbor's cat - when he turns up his nose, my neighbor opens a different flavored canned food and gives the "no good" food to the strays (but I guess you don't need strays with Chewbacca around!)

I hope you find something...he is drinking water & acting fine otherwise, isn't he? Doesn't look like any GI or GB issues?

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

He's fine. Drinking, no vomiting, diarrhea, etc., just being a snot to drive me nuts. I just got back from my errands which included the Whole Foods trip. There are some dried chicken breast strips for treats in their pet food section which he will eat, so I bought another bag of those. I bought 2 cans of Newman's Own dog food as it appears to have gotten pretty decent reviews, & doesn't have much junk in it, all organic. We'll see in a couple of hours when it's time for supper.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Are the strips made in China? I have a hard time finding ones that aren't.

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Oops, forgot about that, & yes, they are, but both dogs have been eating them without a problem for about 6 weeks. So I think if there was going to be a problem, something would have shown up by now.

Debbie

The producer is Dogswell. I just took a look at their website , & they do have a letter posted from the CEO that guarantees product safety for what it's worth.

[Wylie's Mom]

I don't recall which brands were recalled or suspected, but I do remember this:
"Dog owners who feed their dogs chicken jerky products are asked to watch for these signs: decreased appetite (although some dogs may continue to consume the treats to the exclusion of other foods); decreased activity; vomiting; diarrhea (sometimes with blood); and increased water consumption and/or increased urination."

Just be careful (I know you are;))... I just remember reading comments on articles from people who's dogs had alleged issues/deaths due to brands that were not recalled yet...at that time, I do remember not finding anyone who blamed the Dogswell brand for their pups ills (I was contemplating getting that brand, but decided to just stop giving the jerky treats to Wylie 'cause I couldn't decide:mad:). I do recall, that it was mostly, if not all, small dogs that had the problems.

Fingers crossed that the little snot eats the Newman's Own:D.

-Susy

[AlisonandMia]

I wouldn't feed anything from China to any living thing I'm afraid! The really scary thing about this problem with the jerky treats is that no-one has been able to find what the contaminant that causes the problem is - but it ain't melamine. It seems that because the contaminant hasn't been found they are able to give these guarantees that there is nothing nasty in the stuff! Some of the companies who supply these treats (don't know which one(s) but Kathy (We Hope) does have that info at her fintertips) have been pretty aggressive when it comes to shutting down anyone who casts doubt on their products - even professional veterinary associations have had problems when they try to raise concerns!

It is pretty easy to make safe chicken jerky at home if you have a fan-forced oven and you can probably do it with a conventional non-fan-forced oven too. I make my own (using beef heart, not chicken because of the cost) and it works out really well - only problem is that the house tends to fill with flies.:eek::mad::eek:

Alison

[StarDeb55]

Harley ate about 60-70% of his supper which is more than he has eaten at any one meal in the past 3-4 days. We are in the clear for now, so we'll see how long it lasts.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Yay Harley:D!!!

How's he eatin' now?

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Sorry, it took so long to respond, Susy. He is still very hit & miss on his appetite. He ate very well both meals yesterday, but absolutely refused breakfast this morning. I took him in for his bi-weekly weight check, he's down 13.7->13.2 which doesn't suprise me. I'm just glad it's not worse. We stopped at Whole Foods, & I bought every flavor of "Wellness" canned they had, so will try that tonight.

The good news front is that Harley went for a recheck on his left eye. The eye vet is very pleased with how it looks, just very minimal scarring left from that non-healing corneal ulcer. She does want me to restart the antibiotic + steroid ointment as she has a mild concern that there is a mild degree of inflammation in the eye when she checks it under the scope. I had her check the right eye that was injured at the groomer's last Feb., it looks absolutely fine, so that is a big relief. His tear test was perfectly normal for both eyes this morning, 20 mm. which is right on the mean for the normal range.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

That is good news on the eyes:D!

Is this finiky eating thing relatively new for Harley?

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

No, he's alway been this way, just sometimes worse than others. When he dropped down to 12.4 lbs 2 months ago, he had been eating very well for him which is why I was so astounded by the weight loss.

Deb

[StarDeb55]

Maybe the little snot is making me schizo, but I think I may have figured out the problem. He ate very, very little of the new canned food tonight, even after about 2 hours of fooling around. Finally, I got the dish, sat with him on the floor, & let him lick the canned food off my fingers. I could not offer it to him fast enough, & he ended up eating about 90%. This is about the 3rd time in the past 10 days that he has ended up eating really well, when I have fed him by hand. I guess I will be making a trip to PetsMart tomorrow for a new food bowl. At this point, I will try anything.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Maybe his royal highness expects to be finger fed:p:D;)??

-Susy

[BestBuddy]

Deb,
I've never found a dog bowl that will hand feed the dog all by itself...good luck.:p
Jenny

[StarDeb55]

LOL!!!!:D:p All I've got to say is there are always a couple of comedians in every crowd.;):D:p

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

Well, so much for a new dog bowl. He ate no breakfast this morning. I bought the new dog bowl tonight, ended up having to hand feed him to get him to eat the 30% he did eat. I am about ready to move him to Primal Raw, & he can take it or leave it. The only thing that's stopping me is using a raw diet with a cushpup's depressed immune system.

Oh, Glynda, got any thoughts on that?

Deb

[lulusmom]

Hey Deb,

All my kids have been eating Primal for a year and all have done very well on it. All are at their normal and healthy weight now but I do feed Lulu more than is called for to keep the weight on her. We have no problem with inappettance here....just the opposite. They are all bottomless pits. I pulled a tiny red Pom yesterday from death row and he slurped it up too.

I could never see me throwing my little ones a raw chicken wing or leg and I don't have the time to fuss around with necessary supplements so I went with a highly rated commercially prepared raw diet. The guy I get my food from only carries high end food and requires that he be allowed to inspect all facilities before agreeing to be a distributor. He was very impressed with the folks that make Primal. I get the organic, hormone and antibiotic free chicken.

If you want to give it a try, you may want to heat it up a bit....the smell is enhanced and it may stimulate the little twerp's appetite. :D No matter what you decide, fingers and paws are crossed here hoping the appetite comes back.

Hugs,

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

Thanks, Glynda! I have been reading the info on the Primal website & they mention that when you make the switch, you need to be adding what I guess is a digestive enzyme to the food for the first couple of weeks. Did you do that?

Debbie

[frijole]

Deb - I highly recommend the digestive enzyme. :o Right before Haley was diagnosed I thought my biggest problem was the fact that both of my dogs had awful teeth. It hit rather fast and had never been a problem before so I researched and decided it was most likely diet.

After a TON of reading I thought I'd go raw. Today's pre packaged stuff wasn't even available in my town yet... so I bought chicken breasts. OH.MY.GOD. After 24 hours I had a royal mess from both ends of both dogs all over my house. They both developed pancreatitis over it. Later I read about the enzymes.

They were actually both having teeth cleaned when Haley ended up dx-ed with cushings so I forgot all about trying to go raw at that point.

Don't chance it. My 2 cents. :eek:
Kim

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Debbie

I check in daily ... but have still been busy with night shift ... sleep deprivation kicks in and the brain doesn't tick over that well.

Sabre has been on a raw diet since about 6 months old. We got sick and tired of flicking dried food along the floor or hand feeding him so that he would eat his food! I recently have done some research recently and there is some thought on exactly what you mentioned ... not feeding a dog with a depressed immune system and with this they suggest cooking anything that may cause an issue ... ie the meat. However, I have not found this to be an issue with Sabre at all and we are continuing to feed Sabre raw food. I make mine from scratch as there is only one supplier I have found here, in New Zealand, who make a commercially made raw food and it is very expensive.

I do hope that Harley starts eating soon.

Take care
Angela and Sabre

[StarDeb55]

I have no explanation, but I'm just grateful the little snot has decided he wants to eat in the past 48 hours. As I said, I did buy Wellness canned dog food which he was sticking his nose up at. This is, I believe is the 4th brand of canned dog food that I've bought in the past 5 weeks or so. For awhile, he would eat a 50/50 mixture of canned + kibble, he started balking at that, so I went to straight canned. That worked for awhile, but in the past week, he quit on that. Yesterday, I went back to a 50/50 mixture, canned + kibble, he has eaten nearly every bite for the past 2 days I was shocked.:eek::p We'll see how long this lasts.:(:confused: If he gets uppity, again, I think the next stop will be Primal.

Debbie

[lulusmom]

Debbie, I did not add the digestive enzyme as directed and my dogs handled it fine but that doesn't mean Harley wouldn't have a problem. The little Pom I bailed out of the shelter on Friday was undoubtedly on some really nasty food that didn't agree with him as his little butt was covered in poop. Unfortunately, I didn't realize it until I got in the car with the windows up and him in my lap. Eeeewww! He's had five Primal meals and his poop is as firm as can be. He's had a bath too and smells as sweet as he looks. :)

G.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

I used a digestive enzymes when I switched Wylie to Eagle Pack Holistic Kibble, but I didn't use digestive enzymes when I switched him to Primal - I gradually converted his diet over about a week. I remember Alison saying something about not feeding kibble and raw at the same time, but I ended up doing that because I was transitioning from kibble. Wylie had no issues.

My IMS had the same concern about giving a pup with a depressed immune system a raw diet...but I switched anyway. Wylie only refuses food when he's feeling really bad...I switched to raw in hopes of improving his dry coat (I think it helps to a certain point).

I initially got a free sample packet of Primal... I don't why, there was no doubt that Wylie would eat it... but it was free - it had nugget samples of 4 different flavors. I feed him the chicken for the lower fat content (the Venison had the least fat, but was about 3 times the cost of Chicken).

Let us know what happens.

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

As many of you know, I have an 8 yr. old Lhasa boy, Chewy, that I update you on from time to time. I sent an outside e-mail to Alison about a month ago concerning the recent discovery the Chewy appears to be suffering from allergies. Alison has encourage to me post the e-mail on the boards, due to comments that Dr. Lewis, my derm vet, made concerning hyperestrinism. I am copying the e-mail I sent to Alison, so you will have all of the information in context of Chewy's symptoms. I have bolded Dr. Lewis' comments.

last week the groomer alerted me that the hair down Chewy's back was terribly thin, & his skin seemed to be quite dry & flaky. He has always worked on his paws like there is no tomorrow, you look at his pads & they're just screaming red.

Chewy had a follow-up with the eye vet this morning & as I'm sitting there waiting, I'm taking a close look along the middle of Chewy's back, yes, his hair has thinned out considerably. I was stunned though when I flipped his tail back, & here's this big bald spot at the base of his tail, on his butt. I'm thinking, "Great, here's a $300 trip to Dr. Lewis in the derm clinic, as I'm not going to get on the "treadmill" that Barkley & I were on, with 3-4 severe ear infections a year for something like 3 years before the GP sent us to Dr. Lewis. I guess it was fate as the eye & derm clinics are in the same section of the speciality clinic, sharing the same reception desk. I finish checking out with the eye clinic, tell on of the derm clinic girls that I guess I'd better make an appointment to see Dr. Lewis ASAP. Guess what, Dr. Lewis had a cancellation at 230 this afternoon, so we went back down.

I took a copy of Chewy's labs that were done right before last Christmas which included the normal UCCR. Dr. Lewis agrees with me that in all likelihood, it's not Cushing's, nor a thyroid issue. He did skin scrapings, no demodex or anything else suspicious. His paws are pretty badly infected with bacteria. One ear does have a small amount of yeast, while the other, right now, is just an excess production of wax. Poor guy looks like he's got "allergy eyes", too. Derm Clinic is working with Pfizer on a trial allergy medication that Chewy would be an excellent candidate for except his use of Tacrolimus eye drops knocks him out of the trial immediately. Dr. Lewis feels that there is a distinct possibility it may be Alopecia X, or an overproduction of estrogen, but feels more strongly that it's allergy related, even though hair loss usually doesn't occur with allergies. My comment was that with hyperestrinism wouldn't that affect the liver function. He said not necessarily. He said it's more likely that the hair follicles are just extremely sensitive to estrogen, even at normal levels, & react by causing hair loss, so there's a possibility that lignans + melatonin may, also, be on the agenda.

[StarDeb55]

I am officially worried,now. The little snot is close to being totally anorexic. Since Monday, he has eaten well only twice. I had to hold Monday's lyso dose because he had not eaten, so I figured we'll just move to a Tues., Thurs., Sat. schedule. He ate fine on Tues. PM, so I gave him his lyso. Now, the last time he ate well was yesterday morning. He was very lethargic this morning, & I suspect he may have gone outside to vomit a couple of time last night. (I'm not taking a flashlight out to check at 2AM, though.:rolleyes::eek:). I did give a pred about 11AM, & he has perked up some, not as lethargic. He refused breakfast this morning, & supper, so I called the vet. I did get him to eat about 30% of supper, after I got off the phone, but that was handfeeding him. The vet wants to put him on a round of Flagyl to see if it is, indeed, another GI upset, Flagyl should straighten it up. Flagyl does have a very mild appetite stimulant effect, too. Even though I hate feeding Hill's anything, the AD canned seems to be a very good food for dogs who are ailing, or as my vet put it, "A dog has to be half dead before they won't eat the AD". So the plan is, another pred tomorrow morning, start the Flagyl after I pick it up, hold Lyso until further notice, meaning his appetite improves. Crap, I hope we don't have to hold the lyso until I'm facing a re-load!!!:mad::rolleyes::eek:

Deb

[AlisonandMia]

He hasn't decided to go low on his cortisol has he? It could (if you are real lucky) be as simple as that....

It seems that some dogs as they age, get very much more sensitive to Lysodren (and other meds) like older people can and they can suddenly go low when on a dose that was previously a good maintenance dose.

Alison

[StarDeb55]

Maybe, but he had pred this morning, so a stim is out right now, anyway. His maintenance dose is 250 mg./week, last weight was 13.7 lbs. On Tues., he got 100 mg. The other 2 doses this were going to be 75 mg. each. The other thing that makes me think this isn't a low cortisol issue is that at several points during the day, his respiratory rate to me seemed to be elevated, along with his breathing sounding very ragged, raspy, in nature. He seemed to be sleeping when he was doing this, & when I'd wake him up, he would stop, so don't know if this is concerning or not. I did mention it to the vet, though.

Deb

[frijole]

Ah Deb my heart goes out to you. Thank God he'll eat when you hand feed him. Is AD that greyish jello stuff in a can? I remember Haley loved that a whole lot. Hang in there. I too was hoping that maybe her need for lysodren had diminished and she'd gone low. Keep us posted.

Kim

[StarDeb55]

Don't know what the AD look like, but will find out when I pick it up tomorrow. Right now, I would feed him zebra poop, if he would eat it!:p;):rolleyes:

Deb

[JFBMaine]

WOW !!! You folks on this site are really amazing! You all sound so darn intelligent, educated, informed, and just pure nice! Did I mention wonderful??? Oh yes, and supportive!
I love the name Harley and he is so cute! Hope you both continue with your break.

[Wylie's Mom]

Geez, Deb... I hope Alison's hunch proves to be the case. Let us know what he thinks of the AD.

-Susy

[lulusmom]

My comment was that with hyperestrinism wouldn't that affect the liver function. He said not necessarily. [/B]

Lulu's estradiol was hugely elevated and since I know that estradiol is the demon sex hormone (:D), I did a lot of research on it, including communications with Dr. Oliver. Estradiol is the estrogen that is elevated in cases of "hyperestrinism" and per Dr. O, by the time a dog is diagnosed with it, liver damage is almost always apparent with very elevated alkaline phosphatase, enlarged liver and the normal steroid hepatopathy and hyperechoic liver that you usually see via an ultrasound.

Sooo, your question was very appropriate but your derm vet's response is not in keeping with Dr. O's definition of hyperestrinism and it's impact on the liver. Having said all that, I will tell you that I was shocked that Lulu's liver enzymes were normal despite the hugely elevated estradiol. Good grief, do any of our pups read the book?

Please do keep us posted on what's going on with Cutie Chewy.

Glynda

[AlisonandMia]

And it wasn't just estradiol that was elevated was it, with Lulu? It was the whole lot really and her cortisol was out of range too because she was "between treatments" at the time (??) and yet those liver enzymes were all "normal". Did you ever get that test repeated?

Alison

[lulusmom]

Yes, all five intermediates were off the charts. I haven't done a new UTK panel because she hasn't stabilized on the lysodren yet. She is overdue but my mom has been my priority lately. I am comfortable that if the cortisol is within range on the next stim, everything else should be too; however, I may have her estradiol checked just to make sure. She's been on melatonin and purified lignans for over six months so if the estradiol is still elevated, I'm not sure what else we can do.

G.

[StarDeb55]

Well, so far, he will not touch the AD, either. I've gotten him to lick maybe 4 bite off my fingers. He would finally take the peanut butter that had his Flagyl & pred in it, so maybe when that kicks in, he'll eat. The plan is to hold the lyso through the weekend. Assuming his appetite improves, restart the lyso on Mon., but drop the weekly dose from 250 to 225 mg. I pointed out that waiting until Monday means he will have had no lyso in a week, perhaps we should consider a reload? My vet doesn't want to put him through the extra stress of a reload right now, because of his past history of just going totally anorexic as his sign that he's loaded, then it's like 3-4 days to get him to start eating, again. I have a tendency to agree with that train of thought, as I'm not sure that Mom can stand the stress of a reload either at the moment.

Debbie

[labblab]

Debbie, I'm afraid I do not have any helpful advice to offer. :(

But I just want you to know that I have been following your thread and can imagine how upsetting it is for you to try to get Harley to eat. It is a whole lot of stress for you -- wracking your brain to try to come up with something that will work.

So even though I have no suggestions, I surely do send big (((hugs))) to you both...
Marianne

[forscooter]

Hey Debbie,

I wish so much I could think of something that would be of some help! I have Bailey off Lysodren at the moment because he stopped eating this week. Not even cookies. He is starting to eat again now and I am waiting for him to show some symptoms before I resume....but I can only imagine how you must be feeling bc I know how stressed I was think week trying to get him to eat....even just a little.

I know you probably have done this, but have you warmed the food a little? Sometimes, that has helped me with the boys...

And just say the word, we can go zebra poop hunting if it will help! We are the Poop Patrol after all!

Sending lots of good thoughts for a good appetite!!! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[acushdogsmom]

Debbie I haven't been able to read all the way back, but what have you tried in the way of home cooking?

My boy went through several picky phases, where he would only eat certain things, all of them home-cooked from scratch. One was skinless boneless low fat (white meat) ground chicken meatloaf ... have you tried anything like that? I can pull out my recipe if you want. I used to make a meatloaf and then freeze the slices in ziplock bags, and then nuke as needed. :)

He'd also usually eat things like banana and yogurt and scrambled eggs, even when his appetite wasn't "in gear". Sometimes fresh cooked whitefish (no bones!) too.

My Vet also used to tell me that when they are older, she'd sometimes prefer to let their cortisol run a little higher (not high, but higher than that 1-5 ug/dl range) ... the older ones sometimes just do better with their cortisol a little higher than that target range we usually aim for.

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Debbie,
I really hope things get better for Harley and of course you. In my case when all else fails I cook up either a turkey burger, chicken burger or finally a hamburger on the grill.

[BestBuddy]

Debbie,
I am sorry you are having trouble with Harley and his eating. It makes you so helpless because you know they have to eat but after trying dozens of different foods nothing works. I had a few occasions with Buddy and the last time I used the Eagle Pack canned chicken mixer with his normal food and it seemed to work. I'm sure you can feed it straight but I used about half and half with his normal food so I could try to keep the BG in line. After a week or so I was able to use less and less of the mixer and all was well.
I am hoping you can find a solution soon!
Jenny

[StarDeb55]

Thanks everyone! Cushy, my vet has not wanted to try to take Harley's cortisol down to the usual range of 1-5, since he was so sick from that apparent gallbladder attack in 9/08. His stims have been running between 7-7.5. & he's been doing fine at that level, no symptoms.

I'm beginning to wonder if the little snot doesn't know he has me buffaloed & is playing this for all he's worth. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. When it comes to home cooking, I don't even cook for myself, but I may have to resort to doing it for him. My last idea on a prepared food is to try the Primal that Glynda swears by. The dog bakery where I buy the majority of my food does carry Primal so finding it is not a problem. I think I will se swinging by there after work tomorrow & buying a couple of trial packs. If that doesn't work, I guess home cooking is going to be the next step. If this is a cortisol issue, he is off lyso until at least Monday, so maybe things will improve over the weekend!

Debbie

Oh, I did get him to eat about 20% of dinner by letting him lick the canned food off my fingers. After he did eat that, he was willing to take the blob of Peanut butter that had the flagyl & pred in it. The vet wanted him to have one more dose of pred today, just to be on the safe side.

I can't tell a lie that I'm beginning to wonder if continuing to treat his Cushing's is worth it, if it's going to do this to him. He's 14 years old & deserves to have a decent quality of life, whether it's for one month or a couple of more years. I'm venting right now, because frankly I'm getting worried that this is his way of telling me that he's tired of fighting. I swore I would never, EVER let this dratted disease take one of my dogs, but what do you do if trying to treat it is destroying their quality of life?

[ladysmom06]

Debbie,

Sorry to hear that your having problems with Harley eating. After Lady became diabetic the only way I could get her to eat was to home cook. How is Harley this morning? Hoping you had better luck getting him to eat. Hugs to you and him.

Luv,
Lynne and Angel Lady 7/98-3/09

[labblab]

Debbie, I surely sympathize with you as to your turmoil over treatment decisions for Harley. If only we had a crystal ball to guide us...:o When it comes down to such a basic issue as eating, all the other concerns start to fade into the woodwork -- at least for the time being. I do think it makes good sense to temporarily back off of the Lysodren as an experiment. If Harley's appetite improves, that will be an important piece of information to factor in. And since you still have some feeding options to pursue (like the Primal, or even some home-cooking), I'm hoping that he'll still come around.

But I do agree that at his age, your goal is overall quality of life. So that may mean "sliding" on his Cushing's treatment. The endocrine system involves such a delicate balance. And as a senior citizen, there may be more advantages to a higher cortisol level for him.

Once again, I'm so sorry that his appetite is proving to be such a problem. Because I think there are few things worse than seeing your pup wasting away no matter what you try to prepare to tempt them. :( But I'll be hoping that the Primal will do the trick! :)

Marianne

[forscooter]

Debbie,

My heart broke for you when I read the end of your post. As you know, I'm sure, I decided to treat Bailey "my way". Not advocating this for any of the new members here....but I think we have a pretty good handle on our pups and the treatment. And I know we don't know cortisol levels without testing and all of the "rules". But there is one "rule" I do believe in....as I know you do...and that is the quality. I think the largest question we all ask of ourselves is what gives the best quality?

Yes, Cushing's disease sucks beyond belief. But if the treatment causes more discomfort than it is giving, well then that becomes the other sucky part. And I guess it is the balance we strive for. As we know, there is no cure for the disease. We "manage" it. Part of that management, I believe, is when we must make our own rules.

I took Bailey off the Lysodren this week. His appetite is improving as his water intake. He isn't quite so uncomfortable with the arthritis. I spent the last week watching him not eat and moaning and groaning. Not a happy boy. Today, he ate his breakfast and keeps going outside to lay in his beloved sun and sniffing all there is to sniff wafting through the air. That's my Bailey....high cortisol or not....higher than the "rules" allow perhaps.

Whatever his cortisol is, it is. It is keeping him comfortable.

I'm not trying to tell you what to do and I think sometimes writing things out doesn't convey all that we want....I know you want what is bets for Harley...I am simply agreeing with you, trying to offer support for whatever you need to do, wishing that things turn around today, and somehow trying to answer your last question...

I am hoping for a much better day and that whatever the answer is, whether the home cooking or the dropping off/tailoring down the Lysodren gives you an answer that is right for you both...

Lots of hugs...Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[frijole]

Debbie,

My heart bled too and I was at a loss as to how I could help you. I truly believe that "mom's know best". In this case it is obvious as your love exudes in every post and you know every little habit and behavior. So you must go with what you think is best. You are so very knowledgable on these things. Sometimes even strong knowledgeable people need encouragement and a big hug.

So that is exactly what Haley, Annie and I are doing for you guys right now. Hang in there Deb and keep the faith. Lots of toes, fingers and paws crossed for you here. Come on dear Harley - we are sending you dog kisses, hugs, and treats you cannot resist.

Kim

[gpgscott]

Debbie, have you ruled out a chronic infection of some sort, Moria when through a phase herself when she would not eat properly and was losing lots of weight and the administration of an oral antibiotic for a skin inflamation restored her appetiete.

Scott

[Squirt's Mom]

Debbie,

Like others, my heart sank at your last words. You know Harley best and I know you will make the right decisions for his quality of life. He is in experienced, knowledgeable hands paired with a heart that loves him. Unbeatable combination!

Keep your chin up!
Wishing you and Harley the best,
Leslie and the girls

[StarDeb55]

I work every weekend, so that's why it took me awhile to respond. I, also, wanted to see what Harley had eaten or rather not eaten from his breakfast when I got home this afternoon. Chewy is crated on work days, so once Chewy is locked up, I can put Harley's dish back down, if he has not eaten much breakfast. Frequently, this has worked well, as he apparently can eat when he's ready, & I come home, & a large portion of his breakfast will be gone. It didn't work today. I tried the AD one more time, he ABSOLUTELY did not touch it.

On my way home, I did go to the dog bakery, & purchased several flavors of Evanger's premium organic canned food which is about the only kind they have that I haven't tried. Put out the turkey dinner one, he walked up, sniffed the dish, & walked away. I tried hand feeding, he didn't want any part of that. My last idea, I went to the kitchen, got a pretty good handful of grated cheese, stirred that into the canned food, not any more successful, initially. The one thing he has always done is wait to see what I'm going to eat, & what he can "mooch" off of me. Once I was finished with my sandwich, we came back to my bedroom, I tried handfeeding, again, the little snot still didn't want any part of it. I tried dropping small junks of it on the carpet in front of him, that's when he started eating, & as of right now, has eaten about 70%. He may not be done, yet, as I've seen him wait around to see if I have anything else, then he'll let me know he's ready to eat some more. I had a hard time with the Flagyl as he wouldn't take it in a Pill Pocket or peanut butter, so I finally pulled the cheese out, & a cheese ball worked. I did buy a trial package of Primal which I have in the freezer, if he decides that he wants no part of the Evanger's in a couple of days.

An older couple own the dog bakery, & they both are absolute angels. The wife know I have been having Holy He!! getting him to eat over the past month, & she has always told me that if he stops eating any of the canned food I have, just bring it back the unopened ones, & they will refund my money. By the way, I finally did find several kind of dehydrated jerky type treats, chicken, turkey, duck, that are all made in the US. The wife told me that they absolutely will not stock any pet food product made in China.

Thanks for all your kind words, good wishes, & prayers after I posted last night. As you could easily tell, I was extremely bummed, depressed, etc. I feel slightly better this afternoon as I still have a couple of more options. I do know that if his appetite has not shown a distinct improvement by Monday, I intend to continue to hold the lyso, & will call the vet. As I mentioned earlier, this may end up causing a reload, but right now His Highness has to eat, that is the priority.

Debbie

Scott, the vet did empirically start him on Flagyl yesteday. With his long standing history of GI issues, the vet thought the Flagyl would settle anything down in the GI tract that may be out of "whack", along with the fact that the drug is a mild appetite stimulant. I did ask about a general appetite stimulant, & my vet said that none of them that are available work very well.

[Harley PoMMom]

Glynda,

I was just wondering if anyone has asked Dr O. about Treatment #10 listed on Treatment Option Considerations for hyperestrinism? It says:

10) Specific hyperestrinism treatment. ArimidexTM and AromasinTM. Indicated for treatment of hyperestrinism in dogs, but kinetic studies are lacking – they inhibit aromatase enzyme.

Maybe we got lucky and more studies were done :)

Lori and Harley

[frijole]

Deb,

Have you been using the same dish? I ask because he is eating out of your hand and if it's on the carpet. Just wondering as crazy as it sounds if its the dish. :confused: Do you have an old throw rug you can try it out on?

I'm just relieved he ate some food. More hugs, Kim

[StarDeb55]

Actually, I had the thought that there was something bugging him about his dish about 10 days ago, so I bought him a new one. The old one was plastic, the new one metal with a rubber bottom. The new dish really only helped for a few days, & back to the same drill. Tonight, I started with the new dish, got the walk up, sniff, & walk away routine, so I scraped everything into the old dish. The food was in the old dish when he started eating when I was dropping it on the rug.

Debbie

[Buffaloe]

Debbie,

I've been buying those chickens they cook at Costco for Shiloh. Like you, I flat out do not cook other than the occasional barbeque. She absolutely loves the Costco chickens, when I come home with one and she smells it, I've got her full attention. It takes me 30 minutes or so to break it all up and put it in three bags, one refrigerated for the next few days and I freeze the other two. I also cook her some organic rice to go with it...very simple.

Her very favorite canned dog food is Natural Ultramix with lamb, vegetables and brown rice in gravy. They carry it at Petco but it is cheaper at Sprouts. We should eat so well.;) I'm glad he seems to be eating a little more and I'm glad you are feeling better about it.

Ken

[lulusmom]

Lori,

I never asked Dr. Oliver about treatment option 10 because, 1) personally, I would rather stick to the tried and true treatments that have been tested for efficacy and 2) Lulu's IM and I are following Dr. O's recommendation to the letter. I don't recall that Dr. O has ever recommended that treatment so I wonder why it's on the treatment option page. Good question for Dr O huh?

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

WHOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Harley ate 100% of his breakfast. He had started eating on his own as I was sitting waiting to leave for work, (of course, I'm running late), & I thought, "fine, I'm late, but I'm giving him every chance to eat", he had eaten about 50% when he decide he was done at that point. So I crated Chewy, put Harley's dish back down in the kitchen, & took off for work. I got home a few minutes ago, that dish was absolutely CLEAN! We'll see how it holds up at dinner time in a couple of hours.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

WHOOOOOOO HOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Debbie

Could not possibly put it better.

When I leave early in the morning the first question I ask Vandy on the mobile after she is up is 'Is she eating'?

Good for you and Harley.

Scott

[Wylie's Mom]

YAY, Harley:D:D!!!

I was writing a long reply before you posted... I then saw the good news when I previewed my post (& relialized I missed the whole last page!). Just in case he reverts back, here's what I was going to post:

Debbie, I'm so sorry Harley's still not eating much. I don't cook for myself either... Wylie gets a small meal of boiled chicken & rice about every other day and I know he prefers this over his regular Primal meals. Grocery stores in my area sell whole roasted chickens for pretty cheap... from what my neighbor says, on sale they can be $5 each... maybe you can consider getting one of those and try giving him some of the breast meat?

But if you do venture to do some cooking - I look at the papers for sales on skinless, boneless chicken breasts (his Primal chicken is organic, but I haven't bought organic chicken breast before). Many of these are pumped with "chicken broth" - I rub & rinse them off (till they're not "slimy"), cut the remaining fat I can find (sometimes I do find a bone they missed), and I soak them in water for a couple hours (in the refrig.) to try to get some of the "chicken broth" salt out (don't know if it helps, I think of it as a "reverse brine"). I cut slits in the breasts so the middle is better likely to be cooked well enough. Rinse them again. Boil them for about an hour, rinse them, and boil again with new water. I may be overdoing it with the additional boiling - to remove more fat & salt - but I find that the more fat I remove, the longer the cooked chicken "keeps". If I make a big batch, and I won't use a portion for about 3-4 days, I'll put those in the freezer (put them in the refrig about 1 day before I need them). Sometimes before serving, I nuke cold pieces for about 10 seconds. I replaced some of Wylie's treats with pieces of chicken.

Sometimes I save some of the chicken broth (from the second boiling)... if it seams that his water consumption is low, I add 1/4 cup of the broth with 3/4 cup of water - he laps it up quickly and always wants more.

Can't help much with the rice except to add additional water... I rely on my rice cooker (I don't know how I could cook decent rice without it).

Oh - And I wouldn't get the "value pak" bag of frozen chicken breasts (I think "ice glazed" was written somewhere on the package)...the one I got seemed pretty nasty. I think it would be better to get the fresh ones (on sale) and stick them in your freezer.


I can't tell a lie that I'm beginning to wonder if continuing to treat his Cushing's is worth it, if it's going to do this to him. He's 14 years old & deserves to have a decent quality of life, whether it's for one month or a couple of more years. I'm venting right now, because frankly I'm getting worried that this is his way of telling me that he's tired of fighting. I swore I would never, EVER let this dratted disease take one of my dogs, but what do you do if trying to treat it is destroying their quality of life?

I agree with you... Harley's apetite would come before Cushing's treatment, IMO... I'm guessing you're also thinking of some sort of compromise... maybe you can shoot for a higher cortisol level??? Do you know how he might be at maybe a post of around 10?

-Susy

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Debbie,

I've been following Harley's current eating dilemma and am so glad for both of you that he is "back on food" again. So is this the Evangers or the raw?? Munch is also on Flagyl since Sat. and it seems to have started working pretty quickly to remedy what was ailing him. Maybe there's a dog tummy bug going around???

I've got to agree with you also - appetite/eating would take top priority. Keeping my fingers crossed that your little guy eats his dinner.

Louise

[StarDeb55]

Sorry, the Evanger's canned food.

Deb

[frijole]

Yeah Harley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Made my day.

Kim

[Wylie's Mom]

I thought I read that ArimidexTM and/or AromasinTM were cost prohibitive.

-Susy

[forscooter]

OH THANK GOODNESS!!!!!!!

GOOD BOY, HARLEY!!!! KEEP IT UP!!!!!!:D:D:D

Hugs! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[StarDeb55]

Dinner Report-

WE'RE ON A ROLL!!! 90%

The only thing is that I had to scoop it out of his dish & as last night, drop chunks of food on the carpet in front of him. Ask me if I care, he's eating!!!:D;)

Deb

You just have to play the game at times!!

[frijole]

Wonderful news. Wonderful. Give him a big hug. K

[Roxee's Dad]

Great news Debbie :D:D:D

How's his weight doing?

I'm kind of going thru the same thing with Roxee. Last few days it's been a game of what will I eat today. For lunch she past on chicken w/gravy, beef w/ and w/o gravy, salmon. Fianlly gave up and decided to throw some Taste of the Wild kibble on the floor and she gobbled it up, so I put another 1/4 of a cup on the floor and she munched it all down. Couldn't believe she past on the good stuff for kibble. Then I put her lunch back in front of her for dinner and she munched that down too.

Do you think their messin with our heads?

Hope the good news continues!

[forscooter]

Hey, that's why they make carpet cleaner!!! So glad Harley is eating!!
Beth

[Carol G]

That is great news Debbie.

I've been going through the same thing to some degree or another for the past year and a half with McGill.

I switch around between some varieties of premium canned food that he likes, Three Dog Bakery kibble (although he will only eat a little), canned salmon (no salt added), poached chicken breast (an act of love as I'm a vegetarian) & rice, etc.

Evanger's Lamb & Rice and Duck & Sweet Potato are a couple that he will eat for a while (and I can even sneak some Nature's Variety kibble in it). I understand that the Evanger's is a really well controlled product (production wise).

I think it is a combination of them having less than a good appetite, working it for all it is worth and messin with our heads.

I would be interested in any really good recipes for home cooking that aren't too involved.

I'm thrilled that Harley is eating again.
Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie

[StarDeb55]

And today's dining report is not so good.

Breakfast- He ate absolutely nothing. I got home to a dish that had not been touched this afternoon.

Supper- Just finished. After playing the "let's drop the food on the floor" game in front of him, he has eaten 90%.

The other problem is that he has always been real good about taking pills in either Pill Pockets or a dollop of peanut butter, he's refusing both of them. Right now, I'm hiding his Flagyl in a cheese ball which seems to be working for the time being.

Debbie

[Carol G]

How did he do today?

For what it's worth, McGill will go off the pill disguisers too. Now he won't take the pills in cream cheese, week before last he wouldn't take them in pill pockets.

Carol

[Sabre's Mum]

Hi Debbie

I keep tabs ... but unfortunately cannot offer any advice. I truly hope His Royal Highness Harley does start munching on his food more frequently!

Take care
Angela and Sabre

[AlisonandMia]

The other problem is that he has always been real good about taking pills in either Pill Pockets or a dollop of peanut butter, he's refusing both of them. Right now, I'm hiding his Flagyl in a cheese ball which seems to be working for the time being.

I think dropping food on the floor gets their "hunting instincts" going a bit and that helps with getting them to eat. My Zac seems to find training treats even better when I toss them rather than just put them in his mouth - that way he gets to catch 'em, kill 'em AND eat 'em!:D:D:D (He is a dog with a very high prey drive!:eek::eek::eek:)

I think Flagyl tastes pretty disgusting (bitter probably) - most antibiotics are disgusting, even to dogs. Maybe he happened to bite into the pill pockets and peanut butter and got a taste of it or even smelled it when it was going down? Pred tastes pretty dire too (like I have to tell you!:p:p:p) and seems to be something that can cause pilling problems if they get a taste of it. I was always so grateful that Lysodren doesn't taste bad like so many other meds.

If bitterness of a med is an issue then a cheese ball would be good because of the salt content - salt offsets bitterness. (My daughter won't ever take any potentially bitter med without a little heap of salt on a saucer, just in case!)

Alison

[StarDeb55]

Sorry, I didn't update last night, but we had 2 straight, rather nightmarish days at work, & I was beat. Unfortunately, there is no change. No breakfast either yesterday or today. Harley did eat about 80% of last night's dinner by playing the "drop the food on the floor" game. I made the decision when I got home a few minutes ago & saw that breakfast had not been touched that we will be starting Primal tomorrow. Thurs. & Fri. are my days off, so I will be around to where I can closely monitor both dogs as we start the switch.

The vet's appointment is not until next Tues. It's my very strong opinion that I should not re-start Harley's lyso until I can sit down & have that heart to heart with my vet. As poorly as he's eating right now, I think trying to give him lyso will be adding fuel to an already simmering fire. I realize that this going to mean a reload, but you do what you gotta do. In fact, he's been off lyso for about 10 days now, & he's already getting symptomatic as he is getting up 1-2x a night to go get a drink in the kitchen. I'm just not sure I want to put him through the stress of a re-load, & I may ask the vet about Anipryl, simply to try for some symptom control. I honestly know he is not a happy boy right now. He doesn't want to get up in the morning on work days. In fact, he's getting down right cranky when I have to get after him to get up. This morning, after i put the dishes down, sat on the couch, Harley went up & sniffed, went straight back to the bedroom door, trying to get back there to go back to bed, I guess. This type of behavior is just not like him AT ALL, & I can seriously say my level of concern is increasing by the day.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

I have been through several of these with Moria Deb and am going through one right now.

I am with you, it is plain screwy, its not like they won't eat but they have to be coaxed.

Ours may be related to a med change, we will see. Hope your Harley develops an appetiete again soon.

Scott

I am not so sure I would stop treatment totally, I might reduce the dose, but if you are seeing symptoms that is a sign the cortisol is rising. On the other hand a rising cortisol should stimulate appetiete.

Scott

[StarDeb55]

It has been a very tough 48 hours. Before supper, the last time Harley ate was 60% of 2 Primal chicken nuggets yesterday morning. He stuck up his nose at the lamb, duck, & beef nuggets between last night & this morning.

Well, I sprang for a 4 lb. bag of Primal chicken nuggets this morning. It looks like it may have been a wise decision.

YAHOOOOOOO!!!!

The dog with the gourmet taste buds ate 100% of 2 chicken nuggets. I have always said that he seems to like chicken & turkey flavored food better than anything else. I guess Mom knows her boy best. We will see what breakfast brings in the morning. I feel better about him right now than I have in 48 hours. I was talking to my hairdresser this morning, & even told her that I was scared witless that Harley was trying to die on me. Guess he showed me that he's going to stick around awhile longer to continue to remind me whose BOSS in this house. I think I can hear him telling me, "You dumb broad, you just had to get me something I liked to eat!"

Deb

Right now, I'm thinking the plan is going to be to keep him off ALL meds until his appetite is better & stabilizes for at least 2 weeks. At that point in time, I will take him in for a stim to see where we are. If he hasn't gone over 9, it's my opinion that his lyso will simply be restarted at a maintenance dose, in the hopes that letting the cortisol run a little higher will help his appetite to stay at a consistent level. This is assuming that my vet agrees to all of this when we see him this coming Tuesday.

[Harley PoMMom]

I e-mailed DR.O about the ArimidexTM and/or AromasinTM and here was his response. My questions in blue, his answers in black.

Dear DR. Jack Oliver:
I was just wondering about Treatment #10 listed on Treatment Option Considerations for hyperestrinism? It says:
10) Specific hyperestrinism treatment. ArimidexTM and AromasinTM. Indicated for treatment of hyperestrinism in dogs, but kinetic studies are lacking – they inhibit aromatase enzyme.
>>>These treatments are so expensive (human anti-cancer drugs) that they are prohibitive to use in dogs. Also, melatonin and lignan both inhibit the same enzymes as these two drugs, and are much more affordable.
As my Harley was diagnosed atypical via UTK panel case # EN 09-3017 (5/1/09) with Estradiol baseline of 129.4 pg/ml and post ACTH of 132.2 pg/ml.

>>>These estradiol levels are very elevated. But, you would still treat with melatonin and lignan as you are doing. Also, these high estradiol levels are sometimes seen when owners are using hormone creams, so if you might be doing this, consider being extra-careful with application as the hormones are readily absorbed across the skin of people and pets.

He is currently taking the Melatonin and the pressed flax hulls with lignans prescribed from the UTK option sheet.
>>>Give this treatment some time, as it may take several months for the estradiol levels to come down.

But if these do not bring his Estradiol down, I was wondering if the ArimidexTM or
AromasinTM could be an option for Harley.
>>>It's an option, but a very expensive option, with extremely limited experience in dogs. I only know of one dog that these drugs were used in (a bixhon that weighed 12 lbs) and it cost the owner about $250 per month, and took 6 months for estradiol levels to come down.

>>>Hope that is helpful. Regards, Jack.

I don't know, the $250 doesn't scare me as much as the "extremely limited experience in dogs." :eek:

Lori

[Carol G]

That is great news Debbie!

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[Roxee's Dad]

Yayyyyy Harley:D:D

Happy to hear the good news!:D

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Maybe the chicken....will keep him from picking, at his food that is!

Eat heartily Harley!!!!

Munchie

[StarDeb55]

We are on a roll!!

100% for breakfast!!!!! YAHOOOOOO!!!!

Yes, & he feels a lot better, too. My little boss has been way too quiet the past few days. I was laying in bed trying to read last night, when he literally gets in my face, giving me the what for, & generally cussing me out, probably letting me know what a lousy trick it was to let him stay so hungry for so long.:eek::rolleyes::p

Deb

[labblab]

Oh Debbie, this is just the BEST news!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :D :) :D :) :D

I am so happy for Harley and SOOOO relieved for you!! I've got all my fingers crossed that this is just the beginning of a royal pig-out for Mr. H...:p :p :p

Big (((hugs))) and huge congratulations!
Marianne

[gpgscott]

Very happy here also Deb, hoping he keeps it up.

Scott

[StarDeb55]

I had to post one more time. We just finished supper. 2.5 nuggets gone in about 90 secs. My little boss stuck his mug in his dish & did not come up for air until it was empty. I figure we go about 4-5 days eating like this, the problem is

HISTORY!

DEB

[ventilate]

Hey Deb; YEA!!! If anyone understands about being a picky eater it is me. HRH (Her Royal Highness for those of you that dont know us) came by her title honestly. I noted that she was a fillet minion dog on my PB and J budget:p Finding something they will eat if a great thing and needs to be celebrated, and with gusto, sometimes it takes a lot of bags and cans of different kinds and they still snubb it.
So revel in the accolades and know we are there with you, if not in body in spirit.
Hugs to you and yours from me and mine.
HRH Nike, Kenai and me

[Carol G]

Wow, that is great news!

Given McGill's age, I've been hesitant to try the raw but maybe I'd better at least reconsider.

Again, I'm thrilled for you.

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[StarDeb55]

Thanks everyone! Carol, Harley is 14 now, I was so desperate as you already know, I was willing to buy him the Filet Mignon that Sharon mentioned. The Primal was basically our last hope before Mom started cooking for him which I consider too much as I don't even cook for myself. I would have done it, though.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Deb,

I'm relieved for you that Harley is eating his new chicken nuggets with gusto. Hopefully the more he eats, the better he'll feel...oh, oh, my mind started wandering off to that little song about beans... :eek: ... so I'd better quit while I'm ahead.

Keep chowing down, Harley!!!

Louise

[acushdogsmom]

We are on a roll!!

100% for breakfast!!!!! YAHOOOOOO!!!!

Yes, & he feels a lot better, too. My little boss has been way too quiet the past few days. I was laying in bed trying to read last night, when he literally gets in my face, giving me the what for, & generally cussing me out, probably letting me know what a lousy trick it was to let him stay so hungry for so long.:eek::rolleyes::p

Deb


I had to post one more time. We just finished supper. 2.5 nuggets gone in about 90 secs. My little boss stuck his mug in his dish & did not come up for air until it was empty. I figure we go about 4-5 days eating like this, the problem is

HISTORY!

DEBJust curious ... are you cooking the nuggets or just feeding them to him raw?

But either way ...

WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[StarDeb55]

Cushy, all I'm doing is taking the "chill" off of them, 20 secs. in th microwave. I'm in the process of transitioning my Lhasa boy, Chewy, to the Primal, too, as I refuse to keep 2 types of dog food on hand. Chew is no problem as I've said before, as long as he gets 2 squares a day, he is a "happy camper". With Chewy's allergy, hair, skin issues, I figure the Primal is probably better for him anyway.

Deb

[StarDeb55]

Now for a Chewbacca update. Both dogs were groomed today. The mobile groomer I use had to shorten Chewy down further than either of us intended because the longer she worked on him, the more she discovered just how bad his hair loss is. Glynda, at the rate this going, Chewy is going to resemble Miss Lulus very shortly. I was literally stunned when I saw him. He has so much skin showing through what little hair he has left, he looks almost white. You can see from the pictures I've posted that his hair is a nice golden tan color. Guess, I'll be calling the derm clinic on Monday to try to get that follow-up moved up. It wasn't due until the end of the month, but "Holy Smokes", I'm afraid if I let the poor guy go that long, he will be totally "naked". I would be sorely tempted to start the lignans + melatonin without talking to Dr. Lewis first, but guess I better wait.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

Deb, If I understand this right, there has not been a full adrenal panel for Chewy.

I do not think there is a downside to beginning melatonin and lignans but I think I would want the panel first.

Scott

[StarDeb55]

No, there hasn't been. Dr. Lewis seemed fairly convinced we're dealing with allergies even though he did make the comment that hair loss is somewhat unusual with allergies. Now, that you mention it, I really had not given Atypical a thought when I had the negative UCCR done at Christmas time. In light of the skin/coat issues, perhaps a full panel might be warranted. All of us have to go to the GP on Tues., so I think I may just get the ball rolling through the GP as I know, I can get the UTK panel done cheaper through him.

Debbie

[SachiMom]

Debbie,
Needed something to smile about and Harley did the trick.
Give him lots of hugs from me.
When Sachi was having her appetite problems I also purchased a ton of different kibble, cans & treats to try and get her to eat. We have a small chain pet store that would guarantee the food (except open cans) and what I ended up doing is taking back the stuff she would not eat, they would exchange it for unopened bags and I would donate it to a local dog rescue. Otherwise I would have given it to someone else or thrown it out. It made me feel better that even though she wouldn't eat it, some other pup was eating high on the hog!!!
Here's hoping for another smiley day tomorrow!!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Eat hearty little Harley!!!!
~Mary Ann

[StarDeb55]

I have merged the thread that I started concerning Chewbacca & possible hyperestrinism in the "everything else" forum. If you will read last night's post concerning Chewy's now massive hair loss in the past month, along with Scott's comment, I now am very suspicious that Chewy may be an Atypical boy. I did have a UCCR done on him last Christmas which came back negative. His thyroid, & blood sugar were also perfectly normal at that point in time. Chewy has always had a voracious appetite ever since I adopted him from rescue 3 years ago. He really doesn't drink much, but I have never been able to get the polyuria under control. I have been crating him the past 5-6 weeks, & he is, now, even urinating in his crate most days. In light of Dr. Lewis' comments about an possible estrogen issue, the massive hair loss in the past month, & Scott's comment last night about having a UTK panel done, the only thing I can think of that fits all of these symptoms is Atypical Cushing's.

Our follow-up at the derm clinic isn't until the end of the month. I do have an appointment with my GP vet Tues. afternoon for Harley which Chew will now be tagging along. I'm going to let the GP take a look at Chewy, ask him to get the "ball rolling" about the UTK panel, so I can have results back by the time we head to the derm clinic. I can't bring Chewy in for the blood draw until Thurs. morning, but that still gives us 2 1/2 weeks to get the results. I've been thinking today about Dr. Lewis's comment that absolutely no one would end up with 3 pups with Cushing's, to quote, "There is NO WAY!" I laughed & said "Remember, you're talking to the medically needy dog magnet."

Do I get a special award from the group if I do, indeed, end up with a 3rd Cushpup?:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::(:(

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

OMG!!! Special award....I think a special "fund" would be better and I'll be the first to donate! Hope it is something else and something simple.

Louise

[StarDeb55]

$$$$$ donations are always appreciated!!!!!:rolleyes::D;)

Look at it this way, if I'm right, & there's no elevated cortisol which I don't think there will be, because of the normal UCCR. It will be cheap to treat, melatonin + lignans, & no stims should be necessary for a minimum of 4 months.

Deb

[Carol G]

Deb, tell Dr. Lewis "Way." My Keeshond before Winnie had Cushings. Then Winnie and McGill (Atypical). So, it's been three in a row for me.

You are right though about the Atypical w/o elevated cortisol -- after the initial outlay for the full UTK panel (which our IM sends through a lab so we pay lots more), McGill's has been way cheaper to treat and monitor. I think treating McGill's has been (knock wood) pretty simple and painless for both of us.

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[Wylie's Mom]

Debbie, I am sooooooooo happy that his Royal Highness has accepted your offerings of Primal chicken & turkey jerky:D:D:D:D.

I did a thorough brushing of certain areas of Wylie's coat about a week ago & wish I hadn't... I focused on getting rid of flakes on his skin, but then when I stepped back & looked :eek: I think I experienced the same thing you did with Chewy! I hope you figure out what's up with his coat - your hunch makes sense;).

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

We all made our little trek to the GP this afternoon, so I will update one pup at a time.

Harley is still eating like a fiend, loves that Primal chicken. Unfortunately, 6 days of eating well, does not make up for 3 weeks of just barely eating his weight is now down to 12.6, normal for him is 14.0 lbs. The vet agreed with everything I offered as a plan for my "little boss". We are going to make sure his appetite is good & stable for 2 weeks which means through the end of next week. At that point, he will be stimmed to see where we are. If his post hasn't gone over about 9 & assuming he remains asymptomatic, we will just resume maintenance dosing in the hope that letting his cortisol run a bit higher will continue to stabilize his appetite. I want to avoid a reload at all costs as he gives me absolutely no warning he is loaded, the little snot will totally stop eating, then I've got another nightmare on my hands trying to get him to eat.

Chewy has another ear infection, (geez, this sound like Barkley on rewind), bacteria this time in both ears, no yeast. Oral antibiotics for 10 days, plus daily ear washes with Otomax. This is subject to change, depending on what Dr. Lewis wants to do next week. The GP agrees with me that Chewy sure looks like a candidate to be a Cushing's pup with the hair loss, big appetite, repeated infections, PU, but no PD as he is my tee-totaler. He is more than willing to do the UTK panel for me, but there is one huge snag. My days off are Thurs.-Fri., which are the only days I can get to the vet to have the stims run. We all know that the UTK lab doesn't want samples shipped to arrive over the weekend as no one is in the lab to receive them. I said that I would be willing to cover the cost of a FedEx overnight, if we draw the blood on Thursday morning, to insure a Friday delivery in Knoxville. My GP is trying to double check on the logistics & will call me next week. I was trying to get the UTK panel cooking prior to the follow-up with Dr. Lewis, but that may not happen. We see Dr. Lewis a week from tomorrow. I may just hold up the UTK panel until I can actually talk to Dr. Lewis, but I want to see what my GP can work out, both pricing & getting it sent.

I did flat-out ask the GP, if they would consider cutting me some slack on the UTK pricing, since I'm having to have both dogs stimmed within the next 10 days or so. He said he couldn't make any promises, but would talk it over with the office manager.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Debbie,


Medically needy dog magnet - No kidding!

Very glad that Harley (The Boss)(Springstien fan?) is eating well again.

And I do hope that all turns out well for Chewy.

Still can't help but wonder about the pre mixed shampoo's that many groomers use. Bacteria, bacteria, bacteria.

[StarDeb55]

John, if you're referring to Chewy's medicated shampoo, that wasn't a groomer thing. The derm vet put him on it at our initial visit 6 weeks ago, to try to help with possible skin issues as it's suppose to help repair the epidermal layer of the skin. It's a 16 oz. bottle, definitely not pre-mixed.

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

I think that your vet may be able to freeze the blood sample and send it at their leisure, like Monday or something. Leslie's vet did this - but unfortunately left it in her freezer for a month or so by accident. But it does look like it can be frozen before sending - I'm sure Leslie can tell you if I'm right about this or not.

Alison

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

Alison is right..the sample can be frozen over the weekend at the vets then sent out. Of course, the problem with that is, UTK empties the samples from their freezer on Monday's only and spends the week working on those samples. That would probably mean your samples wouldn't be looked at til the week after they were shipped. :( So, your idea of an overnite shipment would be my preference as I'm sure it is yours, too.

I'm in the mood for a road trip and that is a beautiful part of this country. If we were neighbors, I'd be happy to pack it in my dry ice and overnite it for you myself. All this hassle with timing and shipping can get to you! :eek: Especially on top of all the stress you have been under lately. :(

Hope the logistics can be worked out and that The Boss keeps up his chowing down!

Our best to you and yours,
Leslie and the girls

PS. What singer is called The Boss? Rod Stewart? Springfield? Todd Rungren? :confused:

[StarDeb55]

Springsteen.

Debbie

[Squirt's Mom]

:o:o:o ahhhh...:o:o:o

[StarDeb55]

DUH!:rolleyes: I just thought of something. Chewy is on antibiotics, both orally & eardrops for the next 10 days, so he has no business having a UTK panel done until all of his antibiotics are done. This will have to be pushed back until week after next. It's probably just as well, since that will give me a chance to talk to Dr. Lewis next Thursday, & get his specific input.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

I think Mom deserves a rest, now.:p:rolleyes:;) I have made the medication rounds for the night. Eye drops for Chewy. Oral meds for both dogs. I did put Harley's milk thistle in a Pill Pocket for the first time. The little rat had such a hard time getting it chewed up & swallowed, I really thought he was going to spit it out. I think I'm going back to sprinkling that on his food. After passing out pills, I thought I was done, came back to my bedroom, looked at both dogs, went "Crap, we're not done. Harley you need eye drops, Chew you need your ears washed & your ear drops." Finally done. I try to do the majority of the med rounds at night as I am so pressed for time in the morning on work days, I try to keep extra stuff to a minimum. I'm going to have to allow extra time for about the next week as Chewy has to have ear drops twice a day. What we don't do for love! OH, Mom needs her meds, too!!:D:eek:;)

Debbie

[jrepac]

have to chuckle a bit re: meds....I keep all of my aussie's supplements and med bottles in a row on the counter...I then work thru them from am to pm, rotating bottles from back to front, until all have been administered/eaten. We start at 5am and finish around 10pm. I have found that putting a couple (like vitamin & milk thistle) into her dog food is a bit easier!

Re: ear infections, my Mandy had one around this time last year....she did the antibiotic cream, otomax washes and simplicef tabs for 20 days. It all cleared nicely. I knew something was wrong when she kept starting at me with her head turned to one side! it was kind of funny at times...but less so when she would not go up or down any stairs!

I have been very fortunate that she has had no other infections (UTIs or ears) since Sept....[which I can only attribute perhaps to using anipryl (?) and a daily cranberry tab beginning at that time, the latter which is to make the urine/urinary tract more acidic and thus prevent bacteria from clinging/developing).

[StarDeb55]

Well, Harley has been dropped off for his stim. The bad news is that even though he has been eating the Primal really well for 2 weeks or so, now, his weight has dropped for 12.6 lbs. to 12.2 lbs. in the past 10 days. If he still wasn't eating, I could explain it. Now, I would have hoped he was at least holding his own. I guess it's time to start adding NutriCal to his meals for the extra calories to see if that will give him a boost.

Chewy is off to see Dr. Lewis in a couple of hours. I plan to have a fairly extensive discussion as to whether or not Dr. L thinks we are dealing with Atypical. If he thinks there is a good possibility, then, I will set Chewy up for a UTK panel a week from today through my GP. It will be cheaper than letting Dr L's office do it. I really want to hear from Dr. L as to which he think is more likely, Atypical or allergies, so we pick the more likely road to travel to get to a diagnosis. The poor guy can't loose to much more hair or he will be going "naked".:(:eek: There may be some adjustments on the meds that Chewy has been on for his ear infection, but I will leave that up to the expert. The other option as to what is going on with the Chewbacca man is allergies which means skin testing would be the next step. I will update after everyone is back from the various vet visits. Hopefully, I should have stim results tomorrow.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

Dr. Lewis is thoroughly convinced that Chewy's problems are allergy related. He really feels that further bloodwork would be a waste of time & financial resources. He offered a couple of options as to how to go. The first one is cyclosporin therapy which is what Barkley was on, as B was not a candidate for allergy shots due to the Cushing's. Cyclo can be remarkably effective, but it is terribly expensive. Monthly cost for a pup Chew's size would probably be about $125. I am very, very leery about cyclo therapy as it is an immune system suppressant, & I will be convinced until the day I die that between the immune system suppression from Cushing's & the long term use of cyclo for B's allergies, between the 2 of them, is what allowed the development of the lymphoma.

I have opted for skin testing & allergy shots. The initial outlay for testing & getting the anti-sera made up is pretty steep, $700-$900. Over the long haul, though, Dr. Lewis figures that maintenance therapy for Chew would average about $30 per month. Considering Chew is 9 years old, & he could easily be with me another 6-7 years, it's my feeling this is the way to go. Dr. L told me that over his career he has probably treated in excess of 40,000 patients, (cats & dogs), going this route, & probably averages an 80% success rate. I like those odds, & as I've said before, I pretty much trust Dr. Lewis implicitly, so Chewy is scheduled for his skin testing the Weds. after July 4th. The bad thing is that he will have to be off his antihistamine for 2 weeks prior to skin testing. On the good news front, Chewy's ears are in good shape, saw rare bacteria on the cytology this morning, so we can stop all of the antibiotics effective today. We will just be doing maintenance ear washing twice a week.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

I hope that whatever is the easiest & cheapest treament, is what Chewy has;).

One thing I'm curious about is whether or not Chewy seems to be irritated in some way (besides the ears) ... my allergies always manifests with some sort of irritation... I wonder how common it is for a dog to have allergies without signs of scratching, licking, etc... is Chewy showing any of these signs?

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Major hair loss. Dr. L said hair loss is kind of unusual with allergies, but not unheard of. In fact, he said that he actually had an Old English Sheepdog come in one time that was totally bald, turned out to be allergies.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

But, Chewy doesn't look like he's itching, right?

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

He was licking & chewing on his paws with a vengenance. In fact, when we saw Dr. Lewis for the first time, 6 weeks ago, his paws were so infected he got put on antibiotics for a month which he finished about 2 weeks ago.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Okay - so, I'm guessing that's one of the reasons why he's thinking it's allergies and not Atypical;).

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Yes. 3 things point to allergies, hair loss, atopy(chronic ear infections), & the licking on his paws. Dr. Lewis feels that since his bloodwork was absolutely fine last Christmas that this is the clincher. Yes, things can change in 6 months, but he doesn't think so. Chewy's bloodwork showed absolutely no elevation of his liver enzymes, glucose was normal, along with thyroid, so the other obvious candidate were pretty much ruled out, along with a normal UCCR.

I really would rather treat for allergies as it will be much easier, & the expense over the long term will be less, but I will do what is necessary. Of course, allergy shots will take several months to kick in before we see improvement, so not much difference on that score, compared to treating an Atypical pup with melatonin + lignans.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie,

Does Dr. Lewis think his allergies are due to an environmental thing or food related item?

Just wondering, bc if it is bc of food allergies I was wondering if you ever heard of the elimination diet for food allergies.

Lori

[StarDeb55]

Lori, we have discussed a food elimination diet a couple of times, now. In fact, when Chew first started showing signs of a possible allergy problem, almost 2 years ago to the day, I took him to see Dr. Lewis at that point. We actually saw one of his residents, initially, who put Chewy on a food elimination diet. I really did not see any significant improvement, so based on what happened 2 years ago, Dr. L feels that skin testing is the next step. Dr. L doesn't feel that an elimination diet is worth repeating.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Debbie,

Hope the antigen shots will work for Chewy. They did for me. :D

Louise

[Harley PoMMom]

Debbie,

I'm reading "Optimal Nutrition" by Monica Segal, and there is an allergy section in there, that's where I got the elimination diet info. from.

I kinda figured you already went that route but wanted to throw it out there, just in case :) You gals/guys are all sooo knowledgable, I am always learning new things from you all and am in such awe of your vast wisdom.

Best of luck with Chewy.
Lori

[StarDeb55]

Thanks, Lori, I did appreciate the suggestion. Just wanted to say that what I know about allergies is what I learned from Dr. Lewis as he took care of Barkley, my 1st Cushpup, for his allergies. I don't place a whole lot of blind faith in any medical professional, be they for people or animals, any more. The one that I do trust absolutely implicitly is Dr. Lewis, he is just that good. He is probably one of the foremost derm vets in the country, & is the senior managing vet for Derm Clinic for Animals which run 8 clinics in the western US. If it sounds like I'm a Dr. Lewis "fan girl", I AM!

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

Chewy has just started eating the Primal raw patties hasn't he? That diet is meant to be pretty good if there are food allergies I believe. I don't think it's the rawness as such but rather the cereal-free-ness that does the trick in most cases though.

I wonder if our pets are not sometimes allergic to us! I mean if we can be allergic to them, why not? I've got two itchy (atopic?) cockatiels (totally unrelated to one another)and it's just such a frustrating thing to deal with! Oh, and you can't really use steroids of any kind on birds which makes it extra tricky - that and the fact that a lot of companion-bird medicine is pretty experimental and even speculative and most if not all of the treatments are off-label - and you really have to consult an avian-(should say 'alien-') medicine specialist......

Ok - I was just venting.....:p

Alison

[StarDeb55]

You are, indeed, the mind reader, Alison! I brought up the fact about the food change from Evo to the Primal raw. Dr. Lewis didn't have a whole lot to comment on concerning that except he did want to know what Chew's diet was prior to Primal. I told him Evo as I knew that Evo was totally grain free & I had figured the less grain the better. He had one of his techs do some checking to see what the exact protein source in Evo was. As it turns out, in the "small bites" which is what I was using, the protein is chicken, turkey, & herring meal.

Yes, in discussing treatment options, the use of steroids was brought up. Dr. Lewis answered for me before I could say anything when he said that I know you aren't in favor of that, I just nodded my head in agreement. He did go on to say that steroids do have their place in treating allergies, but just not over the long term.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

I finally got the results of Harley's stim last night.

Pre: 3.4
Post: 11.0

Keep in mind, he has been off of lysodren for over a month. Both his vet & I agree that a re-load is not in his best interest right now. I, especially, feel this way as his appetite is starting to get a little "iffy", again, even with the Primal. He has yet to go a full 24 hours without eating, but he is refusing to eat every 3-4 meals. He still has no symptoms, so as long as the status quo remains, we are going to try maintenance dosing, 200 mg./weekly, which works out to 37 mg/kg. The vet wants the dosing dropped from 3x a week to twice a week to see if less frequent dosing may help with his appetite. If we continue to hold this course, the next stim will be done the beginning of October.

I really think this truly now is a case of treating the pup & not the numbers which I am more than willing to do. At 14 years old, Harley's quality of life is the most important thing. By letting the numbers run high, maybe we can avoid another prolonged round of anorexia.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

I really think this truly now a case of treating the pup & not the numbers which I am more than willing to do. At 14 years old, Harley's quality of life is the most important thing.

Absolutely in total agreement.

How is he physically? weight, aches, pains, limping? or pretty healthy?

[StarDeb55]

John, he acts like he feels ok. There is still a problem with weight loss. At the beginning of the month, he was down to 12.4, but after a month of barely eating, go figure. He was weighed last Thursday, & had dropped to 12.2 lbs with his appetite being pretty darn good the past several weeks. I was kind of surprised as I really thought he would be holding his own. I have started adding NutriCal to his meals for the extra calories to see if I can get his weight to start going the right direction.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

I'm glad that Harley acts & feel okay. About the appetite, would you consider raw green tripe? Here's what I posted on Steph's thread:


I started reading the DogAware article (that I think someone may have already posted the link for you before):
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

Anyway, she mentions that raw green tripe is great for dogs with kidney failure and dogs with inappetance. I had given Wylie some raw green tripe, before I switched him to a mostly Primal diet. I do believe that he may like the tripe more than cooked chicken. But it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO nasty smelling (& looking) that I was so glad when he finished the order that I had bought. I truly believe that it is very good for dogs; so much that I am seriously considering placing another order and dealing with that foul smell again - his coat was softer within days of just supplementing his diet with it. I thought it was a "raw diet" thing, but I'm finding that Primal isn't doing as good of a job in this department as the Tripe did. So, if Pallie is still not eating much and if you can deal with really, really, really foul smells, you might want to try the tripe.

Per Mary Straus:


Green Tripe: not the bleached kind you get from the supermarket (which is not harmful but has very little nutritional value). Green tripe smells awful, but dogs adore it and it's quite healthy for them.

Someone had writted a whole article on raw green tripe in the Whole Dog Journal about a year ago... I wish it wasn't copyrighted, or I would post a scanned copy. There are some people who feed their dogs nothing but tripe, but I had only added a dollop to his meals.

It may also be good for Chewy... if the allergies are food related!

BTW- Seeing the affects of Tripe was the reason that I switched to raw... Wylie has always had a dry coat - months and years with supplementing with olive oil, then fish oil, then F&S 3V caps, then back to fish oil, and also switches to different kibble & canned food - none of them softened his coat. Tripe has been the only thing I have found that made a difference (it was added to his kibble at the time) - Primal doesn't even seem to be doing the trick. I personally don't care if his coat is soft... I just feel that something is wrong in his diet when his coat is dry.

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Thanks, Susy! There was a specific flavor of Merrick canned food that contained green tripe which I bought one time. I will have to say both dogs loved it! On the other hand, Mom DID NOT LOVE IT!:p:D:rolleyes: That is the absolute worst smelling stuff in the world, it was all I could do to keep from gagging when I put it in their dishes. I will keep it in mind, but we are not there quite yet.

Debbie

[Wylie's Mom]

LOL... I've only smelled it frozen or thawed out at refrigerator temperature and that was bad enough... I don't want to imagine the smell released from a can at room temperature:eek::eek::eek:.

-Susy

[AlisonandMia]

I think on the Dogaware site there is a recommendation that green tripe be fed outside. I've never "met" green tripe but I'm sure Zac would love too - I mean he likes a bit of cat poop if he can get it.:eek:;)

Maybe you should start tempting him with a bit of the tripe food - just for variety. It might head off another hunger strike. Cooking the raw food might help too as that makes it into something "different" and mine certainly always loved it cooked. I think Glynda cooks it from time to time if Lulu gets fussy, too.

Alison

[frijole]

Now I am feeling a bit confused... I buy Solid Gold food for the kids. I buy kibbles and canned and throw a bit of canned in when they need a change. I also hide Haley's pills in it. I always have them send an assortment.

It has been a while but they have sent me tripe before. I think it is mixed with other things and I absolutely didn't think it smelled any worse than any of the others. :D So if you want to try it - Its Solid Gold, green can is all I can remember but it was tripe for sure. ha.

Kim

[gpgscott]

Debbie,

I wish I had something to offer. This inappetance issue seems to have so many variables with our elders.

I have not heard of the green tripe, but it sounds like it is a good thing for a pup.

I do know when Moria had the perforated ulcer a number of years ago she would drink buttermilk when she would not eat anything. The Dr. treating her at the time told me one could survive for a long time on nothing but buttermilk. I still resort to it on occaision and she has never refused it.

Scott

[StarDeb55]

Thanks for the reminder about the buttermilk, Scott. I'm headed to buy groceries in the AM, so I think I will throw a quart in my basket. He did not eat breakfast, has eaten about 50% of dinner, & is starting to tell me he would like to finish his supper. I hope so, because he is supposed to re-start his lysodren tonight.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

Well, Harley has finished ALL of his dinner. The first dose of lysodren is now a done deal. One of my stops tomorrow will be at the dog bakery where I will be buying some more turkey jerky which he seems to eat. I need to buy Primal, but I'm thinking I may buy one bag of a different flavor besides chicken. The gourmet palette seems to get tired of eating the same thing for a long period of time.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Deb,

Just wondering how Harley is doing today after restarting the Lysodren?

Louise

[StarDeb55]

He seems to be fine. He ate very little breakfasst, 20%, which is not unusual. I did buy Primal today, so I bought a bag of duck, along with chicken, to see if a change will jog his appetite. He has eaten about 50% of dinner, & is probably waiting to see what he can mooch off me. He's in for a shock as I'm going out shortly & will not be back until 11 or later. His dish is in the fridge, so he can finish up then, if he wants.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

LOL!!!!! I just got home from my concert, put someone's dish back down. Guess who finished ALL of his dinner, just 7 hours after the first round, but who cares!!!:rolleyes::D

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

And Harley was so sure he had your number :):):)

I can see him thinking, What? :confused: Where you going? :confused: I haven't eaten yet! :( Okay, she's finally home, :) she's puttin food on the floor :), yep it's the same thing :( but I better eat it before she goes to bed:o.

Glad he is eating.:)

[gpgscott]

Little brat:D

Maybe he is starting to figure out you are going to take a hard line with the ol boy:D

[StarDeb55]

Little brat is right!!;) I've thought for a long time that part of this is that he is jerking my chain, & I'm dumb enough to fall for it.:p:rolleyes: I have family who keep telling me that when he gets hungry enough, he will eat. With him, I don't think that's the case. I think he's stubborn enough that he's going to show me. Unfortunately, I'm such a "homebody", having an engagement in the evening is pretty unusual for me. I went to see Eric Clapton & Steve Winwood last night, had to leave kind of early as I had a 40 mile drive over to the west side of Phoenix to get to the concert.

CRAP!!! I just got back from buying groceries, & guess what I forgot to pickup, the buttermilk. It's too hot to go back out, so I will pick it up on my way home from work tomorrow.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Eric Clapton and Steve Winwood....I'm envious! Hope Harley does well in the eating department tonight.

Louise

[lulusmom]

Hey Deb,

Glad that Harley is eating much better. There is nothing worse than the helplessness we feel when our babies aren't eating. I'll take eating like a pig even if it means reloading over not eating and not knowing why. Let's hope he stays interested in food.

Gil and I are going to see Eric Clapton and Stevie Winwood at the Hollywood Bowl on Tuesday night. We've been wearing out a DVD of their New York concert at Madison Square Garden and have been gearing up for this for weeks. I grew up with these guys which means all three of us are older than dirt. :D:D

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

Yep, it was definitely NOT a teeny-bopper crowd last night. Speak for yourself, I AM NOT OLDER THAN DIRT, just close to older than!!!:p;)

THE GOURMET pallet did eat all of his supper. Guess a change to the duck helped to re-energize his appetite.

Debbie

[lulusmom]

Speak for yourself, I AM NOT OLDER THAN DIRT, just close to older than!!!:p;)

I was actually talking about me, Stevie and Eric. I know that you are still a spring chicken. :D:p:D

[StarDeb55]

It's kind of funny, & I don't know what to make of this, but since I last posted on the 27th, Harley has been eating like a "little piggy". Of course, that is the day that his order of flax hulls came in, & I was wondering if I was totally nuts switching over because of his poor eating habits. I suppose he has set out to show me that he has decided eating is a good thing, & it's not a good thing to stress Mom out!:p:rolleyes: On the more serious side of this, I'm wondering if a serious elevation of his estradiol may have contributed to some degree of GI upset & nausea which aggravated his tendency toward anorexia. I'm just thinking out loud. All I can say is that I'm seriously looking forward to our weight check at the end of this week as I'm pretty confident the little twerp should show a gain.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

Well, I hope this isn't the first warning in another round of anorexia. Harley ate about 30% of his breakfast this morning, 5 minutes later he threw it all up. It was that nasty bile color which is a clear indication that his belly is upset, so I guess I will be limiting what he eats today. He did eat a turkey jerky strip when I got home a little bit ago, & that has stayed down. We will see what happens as the day progresses.

Also, please keep your fingers crossed for Chewy as he will be going for his skin testing on Weds. I hope we can get to the bottom of this massive hair loss, skin irritation, & get a plan in place to get the big guy on the road to recovery.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Deb,

Has Harley shown any tummy distress at all since going back on the Lysodren or has it just started since the flax hulls....or none of the above? Sure hope this passes and he starts eating again. It's got to be so stressful for you.

Most definitely I will be keeping my fingers crossed for Chewy and hope the allergy testing will determine what he's reacting to that's causing his hair loss and skin irritation.

Sending scritchies for Harley and Chewy!

Louise

[StarDeb55]

Thanks, Louise! I don't think it's the flaxhulls as he gets those at night. He's on a Mon.-Thurs. dosing schedule, so it's been nearly 72 hours since the last lyso dose, so that should be out of his system. This is the first time he has had a problem since going back on the lyso. At this point, who knows??? I do have some canned food available as a backup, in case the Primal is an issue. When that nasty bile color comes into play, my main concern is a gallbladder issue because he does have a pre-existing gallbladder problem which includes a dilated common bile duct. In talking about this, I just remembered I do have some Flagyl on hand from the last round of GI problems which he didn't take hardly any of it as I felt pulling him off of all meds was the better way to go. If he either refuses to eat, or vomits, again, I guess I will start the Flagyl.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie,

Was checking to see how Harley's tummy was doing, hoping he's feeling better and eating for you.

Also wanted to wish you and Chewy good luck with the skin testing, keeping all fingers and paws crossed for a diagnosis of his allergies and a treatment plan.

Lori

[StarDeb55]

Thanks, Lori. Harley seems to no want his breakfast, but he makes up for it at supper.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

And now for updates!!

I ran Harley in for a weight check this AM. What a sigh of relief!!

Today 12.3, last weigh in 12.2, at least he is holding his own.

Chewy is back from his skin testing. He is actual allergic to a fairly broad spectrum of things, both outside allergens, & indoor things. The vet tech said that this is really the most common finding they get on skin testing. They sent me home with Chewy's vial of anti-sera for his shots, & we start on Monday at a very low dose, .25 cc. We will gradually work up over the next 3 months or so, to where he will get 1.5 cc. At this point in time, shots will be given only weekly. As the dose increases, the time between injections also increases, so if I notice that he is getting itchy, the frequency of injections may have to changed. For instance, if he was to get 1.5 cc monthly, it would be switched to .75 cc, twice a month. I will be re-starting all of the other things I was doing prior to the testing today, including his Zyrtec. Recheck in 6 weeks. I'm sure most of you know that allergy shots are not a quick fix, but they are the safest & most effective. Time will tell.

Debbie

PS- I forgot the Chewman has a tendency to be cage aggressive, & I guess they had a hard time getting him out of the cage to get him prepped for testing. The vet tech goes back to get him out so we can go home, he's back in 10 secs. Asks me to go back with him as Chew is so upset, they can't safely get him out of the kennel. I go in, "All right, you big bully, are you ready to go home?" He stands up starts wagging his tail, comes right out of the kennel for me, no complaints. Dr. Lewis is standing there, along with one of his residents, they're all laughing, telling him, "See, how well you like us!" The poor vet tech said he usually demos giving injections for the owners with their pet, but Chew is so stressed it that he really wants to bypass that today. I really think I can handle it, but if I can't, we'll be headed back for a lesson.

[Wylie's Mom]

Yay, Harley!!

Did they give you some sort of list of what Chewy's allergic to?

I wish I could have seen "vicious" Chewy turn into "happy to go home" Chewy:p.

Good luck on the shots:eek::eek:!

-Susy

[StarDeb55]

Boy, do I ever have a list. They test for 69 different allergens, scoring reactions from 1-4, they consider anything 2 or higher a strong reaction. Chewy reacted to 44 things on the list. Of those 44, 19 scored 2 or higher. Now, go figure, here's a dog that's living in Arizona, he's allergic to Palo Verde trees, orange, among others. We have PV & orange trees coming out of our eyeballs. The funniest thing I just noticed is that he had a 3+ reaction to human dander.

OMG, HE'S ALLERGIC TO MOM!!:rolleyes::mad::eek::p

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

Boy, do I ever have a list...The funniest thing I just noticed is that he had a 3+ reaction to human dander.

OMG, HE'S ALLERGIC TO MOM!!:rolleyes::mad::eek::p

Debbie I'm sorry Debbie, This made me laugh. On a serious note, I sure do hope the shots work for Chewy.

Atta Boy Harley gaining some weight and here's hoping the appetite persist and he continues to gain.

Lori

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Oh, my.....allergic to Mom, huh. Poor guy - and poor Mom! Think I may have mentioned this before but the antigen shots worked well for me and hope they will work as well for Chewy.

Good going Harley with your + .1 :D Keep chowing down!

Louise

[StarDeb55]

Lori, don't feel bad, I laughed when I saw it, too. In fact, I'm thinking great maybe that's what the problem has been all along, all of my dogs are allergic to me. They start out healthy when I get them, but then, LOOKOUT!

Debbie

[Ann and Wylie]

I'm just saying hi bc I'm new here and just noticed you're in Chandler - I'm in Phoenix :). I also noticed you mentioned a "Dr. Lewis" - do you go the Derm clinic at AVS? If yes, so do I! I have seen Dr. Shick and Dr. Campbell there; at the Internal Medicine Clinic, I see Dr. Bailey.

Both of my dogs see the Derm - Wylie for his skin issues from his recently diagnosed Atyp. Cushing's and Hypothyroid - and my Marcel sees them for his allergies...he's doing great now that he's on Atopica....but I too am considering allergy testing/shots.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi.

[StarDeb55]

Nice to meet you. Yes, that is the exact Derm clinic I go, too, but I ALWAYS see Dr. Lewis. Chewbacca, my other boy, had skin testing last week, & starte his allergy shots yesterday. I, also, know Dr. Bailey. I basically know most of the vets in the clinic, started going there after they first opened. I think the only clinics one of my dogs haven't been in are Surgery, Dental, & Radiology.

Debbie

[gpgscott]

Hi Deb,

Just saw the dx about mom.

So lets see, how do we keep the human dander down:rolleyes:

Saranwrap maybe:eek:

Maybe dept. of homeland security needs a 'nodogs' list:D

Scott

[StarDeb55]

It's been a little over 2 weeks since the last update. Harley ran into the vets for a weight check this morning. I wish I could say there is an improvement, but at least he's stable, still at 12.3 lbs. He's eating pretty well for him, & I'm trying to make sure I add a good squirt of Nutrical to every meal for the extra calories, to see if I can get the little twerp to put on some of the 2 lbs. that he has lost. Harley acts like he feels fine, so as long as he does & is eating well, I'm satisfied. His next stim isn't due until early October, so I am definitely not trying to buy "trouble".

Chewy is, well, Chewy. He is pretty much always a happy boy. He will get his 3rd allergy shot on Monday. Giving the injections has not been a problem. The first shot I got a treat out to distract him ahead of time. He was so excited that there was food available that he was hopping & bouncing around trying to get the treat, that it made it a little hard to hit a "moving target". This week, I got the injection ready with no treat, called him to me, grabbed the scruff of his neck, & poked the needle in. Chew's is standing there going, "huh, what??" It was a done deal, & then he got his treat.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Deb,

Glad to hear Harley is maintaining in the weight department and still eating.

Sounds like you've rapidly become adept at Chewy's injections. At one time I had to give fluids to one of my old cats at home, which I know isn't the same....except that it's a needle. :eek: The first time was the worst (for me) and then it was old news....just part of a routine.

Hope the furkids continue to do well.

Louise

[Wylie's Mom]

Chew's is standing there going, "huh, what??" It was a done deal, & then he got his treat.

:D I imagine him going, "huh, what?? - ooooooooooo a treat", and only remembering the treat:p

-Susy

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Deb,

So glad also, to hear Harley is sustaining his weight and is still eating for his Mom.

Happy to hear Chewy is not minding the shots...I bet trying to inject him when he was moving all around was next to impossible...but your a pro at this...so no problem...if it were me...:eek::eek::eek:

Lori

[StarDeb55]

Well, as most of us know, you can't catch a break, nor can the pups at times. I really do blame this on myself. Harley's left eye is all nasty again. We are off to the eye vet tomorrow. I just hope it hasn't re-ulcerated since he fought that corneal ulcer for a year. This is truly my fault as he has become such a demon about getting his eye meds ever since that groomer at my GP vet hurt his "good" eye last spring. If he gives me any flack or shows me any reluctance about his eye meds, I will let them slide. I guess I have let them slide a little too long. I will have to ask for their suggestions on how to treat him to avoid an all out fight as he gets stressed & Mom gets stressed. I may ask for tranquilizers for us both!:(:rolleyes::eek:

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie,

So sorry to hear about Harley's eye and I'm sure the eye vet will have suggestions on how to give that darling rascal his eye meds. Please stop being so hard on yourself, we've all been there, we don't want to stress out our babes unless we absolutely have to, you've had alot to deal with concerning poor Harley...especially his appetite...give youself a break.

Sending prayers and positive thoughts your way and hoping for a excellent visit with the eye vet.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[Nathalie]

Debbie, I was in a similar dilemma a couple of years back with my foster dog Joshua who was a ShiTzu. He was picked up by Animal Control as a stray and due to neglect of his dry-eyes he had only partial vision left and he needed eye drops 3-4 times per day – his eyes where in terrible shape at first.

He was a pretty agreeable fellow but when it came to cleaning his eyes and putting eye drops in he would fling his teeth at me and by the end of week 2 I was ready to send him to another foster home because I just could not get the drops in by myself on a regular basis and his eyes started to get worse.

Here is what worked for me …
I would sit on the couch and put him between the armrest and my right side laying down, dog and I facing the same direction – using my right leg to sort of get him snug against the armrest without him feeling trapped. Then I would use my left hand hold him by the scruff just enough he could not turn his head and bite me and with my right hand I would bring the eye drop bottle over his head so he would not see it coming towards his eyes. Place your right hand at the side of the dog to keep head from moving away from you and use left hand on scruff to controll left movement. The first couple of times Josh did struggle but once he realised I would not let him go unless he stopped struggeling and the eye drops did not hurt I was able to take care of his eyes without any struggle by just positioning him between me and the arm rest.

I realize this may not work for Harley, but it might be worth a shot if you have not tried this already.
Nathalie

[gpgscott]

Eyes are particulary difficult to medicate when you have an unwilling victim. Sorry the issue has come up again and hope you get it under control soon. I wish there was a magic technique I could give you.

Scott

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Deb,
Sorry about your and Harley's current episode. Hope it doesn't turn out to be too serious.

Question: Are these eye drops or an ointment? Is the med available in an ointment? I ask because sometimes it is easier to put an ointment in the eyes than it is drops.

Vet taught me how to apply ointment to an unwilling pup by placing a line of the ointment on the side of my right thumb, using my left hand to hold the face and the eye open, then placing the ointment on the lower eyelid of the eye with my right thumb.

We still have to do it daily with Mickee, he know when it is time for his eyemeds and comes willingly and takes it like a trooper. Also had to do it with Bailee and he was a real fighter and biter. He would get so mad, he would hold his breath until his tongue turned blue and his eyes balls were about to pop out of his head.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Debbie,

I'm sorry about Harley's eye... it looks like you have some good choices to try for eye medication administration... here's another one (that works for Wylie - drops):

http://www.animalhealthcare.com/handouts/general/eyedrop.htm
This is similar to what my (former) vet had taught me... but, I was told specifically to point his nose/muzzle upward - I seem to have better control that way.

Here are others found on web (some variations of the same):
http://www.dog-health-guide.org/eyedropfordog.html
http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/p/how-to-apply-eye-drops/e028310a-d5f9-2264-6b51-07c40f916241
http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/p/how-to-give-a-dog-eye-drops/d1510d83-39fe-9ed1-6a6d-6bee8ab619f5
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/clientED/dog_eyes.aspx

Good Luck!
-Susy

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Deb,

Sorry to hear about Harley's eye. Hope everything checks out ok during his visit to the eyeball doc and that his eye heals/clears up rapidly. I use the same technique that Susy does with Wylie for giving Munch his eye meds so haven't got any new suggestions for you.

Thinking of you and "feisty" Harley and waiting for your report on the eye doc visit today.

Louise

[StarDeb55]

I had a disaster at work today, so had to push the eye vet appointment back to Monday. Never fear, though, I have enough antibiotic ointment &/or drops that I started treating him myself on Monday, until I could get him seen. (The eye vet may be P.O'd about Dr. Debbie, D.V.M. home treatment plan, but it's not like I don't know what I'm doing.) Anyway, I have worked out a pretty good battle plan to get that eye treated for now. I have some small, soft treats that I sit the bag on the kitchen counter. I put the little snot on the counter, give him a treat, treat the eye, & end with another treat. In fact, it's working so well that I put him up on the counter last night to try to wash some of the "dried crusties" from around his eye. the little twerp, immediately sticks his head in the treat bag trying to get one. I was seriously laughing!:D:rolleyes: In 3 days, his eye looks a lot better, not red, & not oozing green slime, so I think we can hang on until Monday. Unfortunately, his regular eye vet is out of town startin tomorrow until next Weds., so we will be seeing one of her partners. Harley just needs to be seen, so I don't exactly care who it is.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

In fact, it's working so well that I put him up on the counter last night to try to wash some of the "dried crusties" from around his eye. the little twerp, immediately sticks his head in the treat bag trying to get one. I was seriously laughing!

ROFL, Yeah, I can see that! Thanks, I / we needed a good laugh.:D

[StarDeb55]

We are back from the eye vet. All thing considered, the exam went very well. Harley's eye has not ulcerated, probably just an infection due to Mom's lack of diligence with his meds:o. Amazingly, the tear test was good in both eye, left =16, right =20. I would have bet $100 that the left eye would have been really bad. I had also notice his right eye was very red driving down to the office, so the vet checked both. Unfortunately, the right eye is now showing corneal deterioration consistent with dry eye, so I get to treat both eyes. His meds have been changed, & I actually have less medication to manage to treat both eyes. We will now be using 2 meds that contain a steroid, but I have been assured that it is such a small amount that it should not be a problem for the Cushing's.

Not to bad an afternoon, as I was expecting much worse! I had even told the vet that I was totally responsible for this & if his eye has ulcerated, I will be kicking myself in the backside way worse than anything they could do to get after me.:eek::mad::p

Debbie

[muskyhusky]

We are back from the eye vet. All thing considered, the exam went very well. Harley's eye has not ulcerated, probably just an infection due to Mom's lack of diligence with his meds:o. Amazingly, the tear test was good in both eye, left =16, right =20. I would have bet $100 that the left eye would have been really bad. I had also notice his right eye was very red driving down to the office, so the vet checked both. Unfortunately, the right eye is now showing corneal deterioration consistent with dry eye, so I get to treat both eyes. His meds have been changed, & I actually have less medication to manage to treat both eyes. We will now be using 2 meds that contain a steroid, but I have been assured that it is such a small amount that it should not be a problem for the Cushing's.

Not to bad an afternoon, as I was expecting much worse! I had even told the vet that I was totally responsible for this & if his eye has ulcerated, I will be kicking myself in the backside way worse than anything they could do to get after me.:eek::mad::p

Debbie
How old is Harley, he Cushings too, oh Lord, is he neutered?

[StarDeb55]

Harley is 14 years old, & neutered. He's from breed rescue & I've had him since he was 10 months old. He is most definitely neutered as rescue will not allow an adoption without it. Yes, Harley has Cushing's with his diagnosis coming in the spring of last year. He has been successfully treated with lysodren since diagnosis. Harley is actually my 2nd Cushpup. Barkley, my 1st Cushpup, was successfully treated with lysodren for just about 8 years, crossing the bridge at 15 yrs. old.

Debbie

[frijole]

Deb, great news on the eyes! It is tough. Haley's eyesight has gotten so bad. :( She has distance but close up.. zilch. She has constant gunk in her eyes and she no longer blinks when I clean them so it is tough!! Sigh. Kim

[muskyhusky]

Harley is 14 years old, & neutered. He's from breed rescue & I've had him since he was 10 months old. He is most definitely neutered as rescue will not allow an adoption without it. Yes, Harley has Cushing's with his diagnosis coming in the spring of last year. He has been successfully treated with lysodren since diagnosis. Harley is actually my 2nd Cushpup. Barkley, my 1st Cushpup, was successfully treated with lysodren for just about 8 years, crossing the bridge at 15 yrs. old.

Debbie

15 years old, then maybe Shadow can live that long...There is hope then, thank you....

[Harley PoMMom]

Deb,

So glad things went well at the vets, did they show you some new fangled way to put his meds in his eyes, or are you going to stock up on bags of treats? :)

Love and hugs.
Lori

[StarDeb55]

Buy stock in Little Caesar's soft gourmet treats.:D;)

Debbie

[gpgscott]

Hi Deb,

As long as the treats do the job:D

Sorry to hear about the other eye, but at least you know and very glad the left eye was not as serious as you had feared.

Scott

[StarDeb55]

Well, with a post of 11 on the last stim at the beginning of last month, I have kind of been waiting for the "other shoe" to drop. I feel pretty sure it has since Harley has now started chugging water like a beer drinker at Oktoberfest. I'm going to put a call into the vet tomorrow to see if I can get clearance to up his maintenance dose which is 200 mg weekly, or 35.7 mg/ kg. I, also, think he has picked up some weight, (YEAH!!:D;), which might have something to do with this. I intend to run him in for a weight check tomorrow, then calculate out a new dose to suggest to the vet. I, also, want to go back to 3 times a week dosing. The vet cut him back to twice a week to see if that would help with the inappetance issues. I know this is a huge crap shoot without a stim, but his next stim is due at the beginning of October, anyway, so I think we'll be ok. My pocketbook will be in better shape if that stim can wait for 6 weeks, too.

On the eye front, he is doing fine. Both eyes have absolutely no redness. The treats to get the eye meds applied work great. He still is developing just the least little bit of mucoid drainage in both eyes which is colorless, so I know it's not infected. I guess I will be touching base with the eye clinic, too.

Deb

[Roxee's Dad]

I, also, think he has picked up some weight,

After your long and a bit scarey struggle with his appetite, this is great news. :D:D:D

And good news on the eye front too! :D:D:D

[Harley PoMMom]

Keeping all fingers and paws crossed that his weight check will indeed show an increase.

So glad Harley's eyes are better now...darn it I forgot to buy that stock in Little Caesar's soft gourmet treats...of course with the money I've been spending on my guy, there's none to spare. :p

Best of luck to you and Harley with your dosage regimen and talk with the eye clinic.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[StarDeb55]

YAHOOOOOO!

Today's weigh in for little Mr. Harley is:

12.7 lbs.

7/24 =12.3 lbs.

I'll take it. I left a message for the vet to call me about his lysodren dose, so will update after I get that call.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

YAHOOOOOO!
I'll second that!!

[gpgscott]

YAHOOOOOO!
Debbie

Hey! If you are yellin, well then I'm yellin as well:D

Scott

[Wylie's Mom]

Today's weigh in for little Mr. Harley is:

12.7 lbs.

Another good reason to keep those eye med treats coming;)!!!

-Susy

[frijole]

:D way to go. hugs, k

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Keep chowing down on those vittles Harley!!!

Louise

[Dollydog]

That .4 increase is awesome....and I remember the feeling!! :D Congratulations and hoping for more increases! ;)
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

[4Mikeydog]

We are cheering for that beautiful weight gain :D:D:D
Keep up the good work!!! Congratulations from the bottom of our hearts and dog-bowls!!!

Dorothy and Mikey

[StarDeb55]

Just got off the phone with the vet, he has ok'd uping the maintenance dose to 250 mg /weekly from 200. 3x per week dosing which will be split as 75, 100, 75. Dosage goes from 34.5 mg/kg to 43.1 mg/kg. The plan still remains to stim at the beginning of October. Hopefully, with this substantial increase, we can regain control on some of these symptoms.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

Since this is sort of Chewy's thread, too, I thought I would give a quick update on how the allergy shots are going. He has now been on shots for 6 weeks. His next injection isn't due until the first Monday in Sept. He truly is better. The licking & working on his feet is pretty much gone. We went for a 6 week follow up with Dr. Lewis last Thursday. Chewy got the royal treatment as we not only saw Dr. L, but he had 2 of his residents with him. His ears look good, paws still red, but not licking as I said. The injection before last, though, he had a wheezing episode about 2 hours after the injection which quit in less than minute, so based on that Dr. L wants to stop the dosage at 1 cc., we were supposed to take it up to 1.5 cc. I can sort of play it by ear on the follow-ups, but if he should pop an ear infection, Dr. L most definitely wants to see him.

My big concern with my big boy is still the hair loss. He has now dropped about 30% of the hair on this tail, & for a Lhasa, this is kind of tragic as their tails are their "crowning glory". The 2 of us discussed the whole possible Cushing's thing, again, & Dr. L gave me a big pep talk, reassuring me that he is convinced it's not Cushing's. He told his residents that I'm kind of jumpy about Cushing's, & I laughed, told them that was a huge understatement. I told the residents to ask Dr. L about Barkley some time, & then they would understand. Anyway, Dr. L really has a good game plan as to how to monitor Chewy. It's been nearly a year since Chewy had basic labs done. Dr. L wants all of his basic labs repeated some time this fall, comprehensive chem panel, CBC, thyroid, & UA, paying close attention to the liver function tests compared to a year ago. He wants me to make sure he gets a copy of results, but between my GP, Dr. L, & myself, if we see that the liver function tests are starting to trend up, then we will revisit Cushing's. To conclude the visit, Dr. Lewis tells me, "No one is going to end up with 3 dogs with Cushing's, it's just not going to happen". I laughed & told him that he really had no idea had bad my luck can be at times. What a guy, I love him to death!

Forgot, Chewy was wandering around the exam room before everyone came in, comes up to me, & proceeds to puke on the floor in front of me. One of the techs comes in to clean it up. Right after Dr. L, & entourage come in Chewy pukes again, Dr. L grabs some paper towels to clean up. I'm standing at the exam table with Chewy, thinking why does my foot feel wet. Chewy vomited all over my foot & sandal, too. One of the residents sees it, grabs some paper towels, & hands them to me . Poor guy, I know he wasn't sick, I think it was a case of nerves as he remembers being at the clinic, & something not so good happened last time, (skin testing), & think he remembered.

Debbie & Chewy

[StarDeb55]

We just got back from taking Chewy for his bloodwork. Harley went along for a weight check. The good news is that the little demon dog's weight is holding:

Today: 12.7 lbs
8/20: 12.7 lbs.

I nearly got really excited as the scale bounced up to 13.0, but then leveled off at 12.7. I'll still take it, as long as he's not losing lbs. I know just from the feel of him that he doesn't feel nearly as bony to me as he did 2 months ago. I would really like to get his weight over 13 lbs since he is still down about 1 lb., but I'm a realist & know that may not happen.

Deb

[frijole]

Great news Deb. Take the W and run! Kim

[StarDeb55]

Well, we may have an answer for Chewy's continued hair loss. His T4 has dropped from 1.9 in 12/08 to 0.9 on the labs done this week. I agreed with my GP vet to go ahead & add on the free T4 to make sure this is for real, so I will probably know about that at the beginning of next week. The really good news is that his liver function tests including his alk phos are ALL low normal, so I think I can breathe a big sigh of relief, & get off of my Cushing's rant for Chewy.:rolleyes:;):D The other thing is that Chewy's hematocrit was 61% indicating probable dehydration. I have always told the vet that he is my "teetotaler", so the only thing I know to do is starting adding fluid to his meals. The vet suggested pedialyte, so we will probably be starting that in the next couple of days.

Now, for little Mr. Demon Dog, I forgot to mention that the increase in the maintenance dose seems to be doing the trick as the middle of the night trips outside to pee have pretty much stopped. Harley still seems to be drinking a lot, so I'm kind of curious to see what his stim shows at the beginning of next month.

[StarDeb55]

I need a 2nd opinion/advice about using pedialyte with Chewy. The vet suggested using that to make sure that Chewy is well-hydrated by adding it to his meals. I got to thinking about this today, & if Chewy's electrolytes are normal, which I assume they are since the vet mentioned nothing about them being out of whack on the labs, it's my opinion that the additional electrolytes from the pedialyte could throw something out of whack. I simply added about 2 oz. of bottled water to breakfast, & he ate without a problem. Perhaps I should hold off on the pedialyte, until I can confirm with the vet on Tuesday?

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

I would have thought that if he is just dehydrated with no electrolyte depletion then all you need to do is "just add water".

It's my understanding that things like pedialyte are needed when there is dehydration with electrolyte depletion (like you get with diarrhea) but that normal dehydration due to lack of water is best corrected by just taking in water.

Alison

[BestBuddy]

I agree that just water is best at this stage. Maybe when you speak to your vet you can try the pedialyte. I hope you can keep the water going in.:D

Jenny

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie,

Well FWIW, IMO, I wouldn't give him the pedialyte bc of the added ingredients (dextrose, potassium citrate, sodium chloride and sodium citrate), I believe if you're adding water to his meals that should be good enough until you find out for sure from the vet if Chewy does, indeed, need it.

I'm happy to see that Chewy's liver function tests including his alk phos are ALL low normal, YAAA!!, so maybe no cushings for Chewy, YAAA!!

Also glad to hear that the increase in the maintenance dose for Harley has almost stopped the midnight peeing trips...Been meaning to ask...How are his eyes doing?

Love and hugs.
Lori

[StarDeb55]

Concerning the pedialyte everyone's idea is just exactly what mine is, so I will stick with water through the weekend. It's got to be one of 2 things, either his electrolytes are not ideal because of the dehydration which is why the vet suggested pedialyte or the vet really wasn't thinking this through, & with no electrolyte abnormality, water should be sufficient.

Thanks for asking about Little Mr. Demon Dog's eyes. I'm happy to report they are doing well, & looking pretty good. Not only have the midnight pee trips stopped, Harley was getting up a couple of times a night to go get a drink, that's pretty much stopped, too.

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

You might find this interesting: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/inconversation/stories/2008/2166346.htm (click on "show transcript")

I mentions how in elderly people the thirst mechanism doesn't work so well. I wonder if something similar happens with dogs - it wouldn't surprise me.

Alison

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Debbie,
Just wondering how the boys are doing?

Chewy - staying hydrated
Harley - gaining weight

I forgot which was the twerp and which was the snot ;)

[StarDeb55]

Thanks for asking, John. We're all fine. I have been adding about 2 ozs. of water to the Primal that Chewy eats, so he is eating more of a Primal soup than solid food. Unfortunately, he will have to have his next allergy injection on 10/1 at the derm vet's office as he now has had 2 mild reactions. The last shot, about 2 hours later, he was so out of it, you would swear the little boy was "stoned". He was fine by morning. The derm vet wants him at the office to pre-medicate him, give the injection, & watch him for several hours.


Now, for Mr. Little Demon Dog, (aka Harley), he is actually pretty darn good. Eyes look great, & as long as he gets his treats, eye meds are not an issue. The increase in his lysodren dose from 200 mg. to 250 mg. weekly, has stopped both the midnight trips outside, & to go get a drink, so that is a good sign. The only reason I knew he was getting up at night was he doesn't see very well anymore, so he needs his "assistance human" to help him back in bed. We will know for sure when his has his next stim in about 3 weeks.

Hope you & yours are doing well.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

I thought for the next several days, I would switch my avatar to my dearly beloved Barkley, in memory of his passing day after tomorrow. I still miss him & always will. Harley's pic will return in a couple of days.

R.I.P dearest B, you human Mom misses you.

Debbie

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Deb,

What a great way to honor Barkley. Your boy had such a sweet, sweet face.

Louise

[labblab]

Deb, it is very sweet and touching to see Barkley honored as your avatar. I know you remember him every single day, regardless. But this way, it helps us to also join with you in celebrating his life and your special memories.

Many (((hugs))),
Marianne

[lulusmom]

Deb, I love Barkley's picture. He had passed before you got here (cc.net) but I feel as if I know him. You have done a wonderful job of keeping his memory alive.

G.

[frijole]

I thought for the next several days, I would switch my avatar to my dearly beloved Barkley, in memory of his passing day after tomorrow. I still miss him & always will. Harley's pic will return in a couple of days.

R.I.P dearest B, you human Mom misses you.

Debbie


Cool photo. He is truly a doll. RIP Barkley. K

[Roxee's Dad]

Oh Debbie,

He was such a cute baby boy. It's sometimes so hard to find the right words for moments like these. I can only say I feel sadness for you and feel honored that you are sharing this memory with us.

I just love his cute face and that pose just says "Love me"

[gpgscott]

Barkely is precious Deb,

It is nice to be introduced to his person.

Scott.

[Buffaloe]

Deb,

So I'm getting my work out in this morning, riding my bike around Camelback Mountain. I'm waiting at a red light and a lady pulls up next to me with a small dog sitting on her lap. This dog is the spitting image of Barkley. He's got his nose out the window, then turns his head to his Mom and looks at her adoringly, then back for more smells...way too cute.

Ken

[StarDeb55]

Thanks to all of you who have posted to honor Barkley's memory.

I will relate one small, funny story concerning B & the day I brought him home from rescue. My Mom's dog, a little Lhasa who weighed all of about 13 lbs., had ruled the roost at our house, since my poodle who had crossed the bridge about a year previously. The poodle was also pretty small, around 14-15 lbs. This Lhasa was extremely possessive of Mom, & our house. I figured to lessen the chance of a disagreement between Barkley & Tai, I would bring Barkley into the back yard on his leash, while Mom had Tai on her leash waiting for us in the yard. My Mom took one look at B, who probably weighed about 23 lbs, & exclaims, "But, he's soooo big!!!!!". I started laughing & basically told her what did she expect. Mom grew to love B almost as much as I did. She was very hard of hearing, so she depended on B to let her know when something might be going on that she needed to check out. Of course, the problem there was that B could frequently be "lying", but that was OK, too.

To dearest Barkley, I know you & Mom are together, & are keeping watch over the 3 of us. We will all be reunited, & here's to that day.

Debbie

[StarDeb55]

HAPPY DANCE!!!!!

Just got back from picking up Chewy from the derm vet, took Harley with me so I could run him in for a weight check at the regular vets.

Today's weight: 13.1 lbs.
9/3: 12.7 lbs.

YAHOOO!!!!!!

Harley has been eating really well for him, & I was convinced he had gained as he definitely doesn't feel as bony as he has felt for the past few months.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

This is great news :D:D:D

So what was the secret food formula?

[StarDeb55]

John, the little twerp tried to stop eating the Primal about a month ago. I remembered that the Lhasa my Mom had years ago really liked those "Little Caesar's" tins of wet food. I have been buying those tins, adding 1/4 tin of Caesar's to his Primal, & mashing them all up together. Of course, the treats to get his eyes treated help, I'm sure!;):D

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

John, the little twerp tried to stop eating the Primal about a month ago. I remembered that the Lhasa my Mom had years ago really liked those "Little Caesar's" tins of wet food. I have been buying those tins, adding 1/4 tin of Caesar's to his Primal, & mashing them all up together. Of course, the treats to get his eyes treated help, I'm sure!;):D

Debbie

Sometimes it is just amazing how these commercial dog foods know what to add for our pups noses and taste buds. Sometimes we have to go for whatever works. Glad the little twerp :p is gaining weight. :) It can be such a challenge sometimes.

Love that little twerp reference, I have a customer with 2 shi's and they just took in a little brindle Shi, I started grooming him at 12 weeks old, he's now 9 months and I nick named him "little twerp" and his mommy just laughed. So when they call, the want Andy, Max and the little twerp groomed.:D

Wishing you continued success with your little twerp and the snot. :D

[StarDeb55]

We are anxiously awaiting the results of Harley's stim which was done on Friday. His vet is off tomorrow, so we will be biting our nails/claws until Tuesday. Anecdotally, I think the increase in lyso about 2 months ago has probably dropped his numbers a little because the midnight trips out to pee or get a drink have totally stopped.

Now, his appetite has been on the downside for about the past 10 days or so, & his weight on Friday shows it.

10/1- 13.1 lbs.
10/23- 12.6 lbs.

I've been playing around with adding "treats to the Primal, & I think I may have found one that will work, at least for awhile. The lady who owns the dog bakery where I buy my Primal gave me a sample of dehydrated chicken bites awhile back. I crunched a few of those up in the Primal the past couple of meals, & he has eaten almost 100%, so I guess I'm back to the dog bakery on Tuesday to buy some. It's 100% pure meat with nothing else, so that's a good thing. His eyes are doing ok, but even with 3 different eye meds a day, they still get a little runny which leads to the hair getting matted & nasty around his eyes. Groomer is due on Friday, so I guess I will try to wash his eyes some before then, so she doesn't have to fight him to get it all done.

I will post when I have the numbers.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Debbie,

We are all waiting anxiously with you, biting our nails/claw too. :p:D and so hoping that those numbers are good, but as you and others say, somtimes you have to go by the pup and not by the numbers...well that's not a direct quote...but it's something like that tho. :o:)

I am so glad you found something else Harley will eat with his Primal and hopefully by his next weigh-in we will see an increase...oh our pups...how we worry...and we love them so.

Will be looking for your results on Harley's stim.

Love and hugs.
Lori

[StarDeb55]

HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!

Just got off the phone with the vet.

10/23 ACTH
Pre: 3.2
Post: 8.4

Last July:
Pre: 3.4
Post: 11.0

I just knew they had come down. There are some good things, some bad things on the general bloodwork which I will post more in detail, later, when I get the results. The one thing the vet is concerned about is there has been a substantial increase in the serum globulin level which raises the total protein. He says this is usually an indication of an infection, but I assured him Harley is fine. There is no sign of anything coming on. He wants to hang tight, but if I notice anything that indicates any infection, bring him in because he's probably going to need antibiotics. I told the vet that "You know if the little guy even breathes wrong, our next stop is at your office." Last piece of good news, the vet will allow us to bump the stim schedule to every 4 months, instead of quarterly. That will help Mom's pocketbook a little bit.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!

Just got off the phone with the vet.

10/23 ACTH
Pre: 3.2
Post: 8.4

Debbie
YAAA!!! Atta boy Harley!!!

Love and hugs.
Lori

[gpgscott]

Happy Dancing with you all.

Just not as colorfully:D

Scott

[labblab]

Debbie, that's such great news about Harley's stim results! :) :) :) :)

Congratulations to you both,
Marianne

[Wylie's Mom]

Yippeeeee!!

About adding treats to the Primal... since you aren't up for trying the raw green tripe (:eek:can't say I blame you;)), you might want to try sardines... I sometimes get them for Wylie: I get sardines in water with no salt added (but still has sodium - see label), I try to get skinless, boneless, but its hard to find sometimes.

-Susy

[Roxee's Dad]

Good news on the stim. :D:D:D

Too bad the little Twerp won't give you both, a good stim and weight gain in the same week. :(

[StarDeb55]

The rest of Harley's labs are, indeed a puzzle, some good, some not so good.

Alk Phos:
10/23- 624
4/8- 681

The AP has been steadily dropping, & this is simply with milk thistle.

ALT:
10/23- 270
4/8- 67

This is the one that really bothers me as 67 last spring is right in the middle of normal range. Friday's sample was hemolyzed & there is a notation on the report that hemolysis can increase the ALT as much as 20%. If you consider that, it still means that Friday's result is 216 which is almost 4x higher than last spring. I guess I'm going to be reading up on the causes of an elevated ALT, other than Cushing's.

Here is the puzzle that the vet mentioned about the total protein/globulin.

10/23:
Total Prot.- 7.7
Globulin- 4.4

4/8
Total Prot.- 6.5
Globulin- 3.3

Total protein normal range: 5.0-7.4
Globulin normals: 1.6-3.6

Bun has dropped from 39 down to 27 with the creatinine stable at 1.1. As I've mentioned to quite a few of you, when looking at renal function tests the creatinine is more important as there are a number of factors that can affect the BUN, including something as simple as dehydration. I'm still happy the the BUN has come down.

If I had to grade this batch of labs, I would have to say a "B". I'm thrilled that his cortisol has come down so nicely, & the alk phos is coming steadily down, but my "radar" is up about the ALT since the little guy has the pre-existing gallbladder issue.

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

I think gallbladder issues can raise ALT.

Alison

[StarDeb55]

Harley & I had a rather horrible morning. The backup mobile groomer I have came to clean up both boys this morning. I had to cancel & re-schedule with their regular person twice, on the 2nd one because of jury duty, it was going to be 6 weeks or more before she could get them in. They were already 3 weeks late, so you can see why I called Aussie. Anyway, shortly after they go out to the van, the groomer is knocking on the door because she needs help with Harley. I'm telling you, Harley absolutely went wild, even with me in the van. After she managed to get his face & eyes cleaned up, I went back in the house. She asked me to come back out in about 10 minutes to help her, so she could do his paws & trim his claws. I was in the kitchen at the front of the house, & could hear him screaming inside the van, clear in the house. I went straight back out & didn't leave. He finally calmed down enough that she could get him finished, but the only way to finish up his paws, & clip his nails was to put a full head muzzle on him because he was even trying to bite me. The poor little boy was so terrified, he was psychotic. After his eyes were covered, he seemed to relax to the point, he may have been going to sleep. The regular groomer always tells me that Harley has to "work hard" during his grooming, so I have a feeling she is seeing the same thing. This bothers me because he is more than one person can handle when he is so psychotic. I have a call into the vet about something else with him, & after what I saw this morning, I fully well intend to ask the vet for some type of sedative to at least relax him, if not knock him out before he's groomed in the future. Harley does not need to go through this at 14 yrs. old, & neither does any groomer whose working on him.

I talked to the vet this afternoon, & he is in total agreement about the necessity to sedate Harley prior to any future grooming, so he is willing to write me a script for Valium. I hate to do it, but I DO NOT WANT TO WITNESS what I saw this morning, ever again.:mad::eek::(

At least Chewy is standing in the tub, hanging out, being Mr. Mellow. Saying, "do whatever you need to do lady, & I'm ok with it." After we got done, I felt like I had worked out for about 2 hours at the gym.

Debbie

[AlisonandMia]

It does sound like the poor little guy really needs the Valium. I'm glad your vet didn't prescribe Ace after what I've read recently about it (never liked it for horses, I must say). Here's a couple of links to the Dolittler blog:

http://www.dolittler.com/2009/10/22/Acepromazine.Why.Im.not.a.big.fan.when.it.comes.to .sedation.via.ace.html

http://www.dolittler.com/2009/10/20/Sedating.your.pet.after.surgery.Whats.your.take.ht ml

Alison

[Roxee's Dad]

Thanks for that link Ali. That is scarey stuff. It goes on my list of prohibited drugs!