Schnapps - possible cushings

[diggydog]

Hi all,

I have a diabetic dog and am a member over on k9diabetes so hope that someone over here can help me out with some information.

I look after my friends dog Schnapps aka Baby Schnappy an 8 yo mini schnauzer for a few days each week.
Over the last few months Schnapps has had a huge increase in drinking and urination.
I checked her urine with multi-stix but nothing out of the ordinary showed, no blood or protein or anything and no glucose either.
My friend Ann has very limited income and is on her own so is finding it hard enough to survive on what money she has and can only afford limited vet treatment just now.
Anyway - she took Schnapps to the vet yesterday and had a full blood panel run after the vet examined Schnapps. Blood results came back this morning with high liver enzymes and not much else so he wants to test for cushings.
Schnapps does have a pot belly going on and is drinking much more than usual but she isn't up during the night to pee and has only had 1 accident in the house since the increase drinking started.

How important is it just now to test for cushings? I am not really sure Ann can afford it and if its something that can be put off for a few months till she can get a bit of money behind her it would be great. Her vet seems to me to be pushing her into doing the test this week (acth I think)
I had my wee diabetic tested a while back and done a little research into Cushings but not all that much giving Alfie tested negative and he has no insulin resistance which kinda ruled it out anyway.
I thought that treatment only really helped to relieve the symptoms of cushings and given that Schnapps is alert, bright and a really happy wee dog that putting it off is not really going to harm her a huge amount in the long run.
Obviously Ann doesn't want to see Schnapps suffer or anything and is really worried that not testing is a really bad idea so is trying to beg and borrow money so she can get it done.
I dont want to tell her to put it off if its not the right thing to do??

Thanks!
Allison

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[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Allison,

First, you are a very good friend to reach for help on behalf of your friend's baby. We all need friends like you!

Second, here is a link from our Helpful Resource Section where your friend may find some financial help. Many of us here use Care Credit for our pups but there are other options available, too. The testing phase is expensive, but crucial. Once the testing has confirmed Cushing's, the expenses drop considerably, especially if using Lysodren to treat. Trilo can be a bit more expensive to use because it often requires more ACTH tests to get the dose right.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212

Now, to the nitty gritty! :D The pot belly, panting, drinking and elevated liver enzymes are all common to Cushing's - but also common to other conditions. I assume the labs Schnapps has had ruled out diabetes and hypothyroidism? Has her appetite changed any? Cush pups are driven to eat - they are obsessed with food; even after just finishing their meal they will often beg for more. They will get into the trash and/or counter surf, take food from you and other pets, search continuously for something, anything, to eat. My Squirt has always been a Miss Piggy and I felt I would never be able to use this sign with her but, man!, was I wrong! When that cush appetite kicked in, she was frantic for food. :eek: There was an obvious difference from her usual love affair with food!

It would help a great deal if you could post the test results that Schnapps has had so far and any she has in the future - you or her mom either one. This is Schnapps thread so her mom is free to post, too, if she can. If not, we will count on you! :)

The good thing about Cushing's is that it is a very slowly progressing condition, taking years to start doing damage. So your friend has time to save up some pennies for testing and check out the link for aid. The test usually done to diagnose are the LDDS, ACTH, and ultrasound. But there is one simple, non-invasive test that can rule OUT Cushing's, but it cannot diagnose it. The UC:CR is a urine test that will tell the vet if Cushing's is a possibility or not. If the test comes back normal, Schnapps does NOT have Cushing's. If it comes back abnormal, that still dose not diagnose Cushing's; it simply means something is off. This is a good starting point and could alleviate the concerns about Cushing's right off the bat. It is the least expensive test, too.

We admire and respect the k9d group - our sister site - and are very glad you came over to talk to us about Schnapps. We will do all we can to help her, you and her mom. Ya'll ain't alone on this journey - we will walk with you every step of the way.

Keep up the good work and keep being such a good friend - your friend and Schnapps are so very lucky to have you in their lives!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[diggydog]

Thanks Leslie!

I had a look at the link but should have mentioned that we are in Scotland, I have put Ann in touch with the PDSA and a couple of other charities that might help her out. I wish I could offer her financial help but having a diabetic dog of my own means its just not all that possible but if and when I can I will help her out.
I only met Ann a few months ago when she came to work where I do and she is one of the most amazing people I have ever come across. Her husband has just walked out on her leaving her without a penny and dealing with her mother who is blind, a father having chemo for the sceond time having beating cancer once already and 2 kids to support and of course Schnappy.

I asked Ann to get the test results but not sure she is confortable asking her vet and she wont let me ask as she knows how hard I can be on vets but I will keep trying!
Both diabetes and hypothyroid have been ruled out along with a few other things. Its interesting to note that her vet has not done a UA which I think should be done so am trying to get Ann to put off the acth and do a UA. Will try and get the UC:CR done as well.

There are so many sympotoms of Cushings that fit with Schnapps buts a few that make me question it to be honest. We have pot belly, panting drinking and urination and yeah in the last few weeks her appetite has increased. Normally Schnapps is fed once a day but she is always on the hunt for food but if she gets stressed by something she wont eat or if she does she is sick. Last week we were at a friends house for a few hours and they have guinie pigs so Schnapps got REALLY excited then wouldn't eat.

K9diabetes group have been a total life saver for Alfie and I and I doubt very much he would still be here if I hadn't had help and advice from everyone there and I am so glad that I knew about K9cushings and found it over here.

Will try get some results and a UA and UC:CR done soon!

Hugs
Allison

[diggydog]

Hi All,

I first posted here over a year and a half ago about my friends dog Schnapps.
At the time my friend was unable to financially undertake any further testing with Schanpps and to be honest none of the symptoms Schnapps had/has got any worse and she was living a rather happy little life.

Fast forward a year and my friend was unable to keep Schnapps any more and needed to rehome her.
Although I already had 2 mini schnauzers of my own and my diabetic terrier I could not stand the thought of my wee Schnapps going to somewhere else so decided that I would take her in as my own.

So I now have 3 mini schnauzers and a diabetic terrier and am rapidly becoming that crazy dog lady.

The week after I officially adopted schnappy I took her for a full work up at the vet.
Nothing significant came up other than slightly elevated liver enzymes - same as the last lot of bloods she had done in 2011.
Her pot belly has gotten much larger - so I figured I would put her on a diet but after having her weighed she actually weighed less than my other schnauzer of the same age and size. Schnapps looks like she is twice the weight she actually is!

I decided to wait a while until Schnapps settled in with us in her new home and see if her being on my routine of weighed food every 12hours apart (gotta love a diabetic to create routine) and regular walks woulds help with the weight.

So that brings us up to now.
I think we need to seriously consider pursuing additional testing on my girl.
She drinks pints of water everyday, the pot belly is no different despite diet and exercise and she has recently stopped jumping up on the sofa and needs lifted into the car.

To look at her she screams cushing's dog but she does not have the hunger associated with cushings.

Is this hunger always a symptom??

Going to take her monday for UA, UC:UR and full blood panel.

She is not diabetic as I have already tested her for that - when I test Alfie's bg she always likes to watch and has been good a letting me get a wee bit blood from her lip so have checked her every couple of days before and after food.

If the hunger is always present in a cushings dog then I wont go down the ACTH route but I cant help but keep coming back to her having cushings!

Allison

[Junior's Mom]

Welcome back. What a wonderful friend you are to take this dog in. As far as I know, cush dogs are starving. Was the thyroid checked? Hypothyroid shares many of cushings symptoms.

[Woodydog]

Hi Allison I,m in Scotland too *waves* I,m going through the same at the moment with my terrier, he had bloods done which showed up elevated liver enzymes but as he presented with Cushings symtoms thirst, peeing, hunger, pot belly I decided to test for cushings. Previously to the ACTH test and then LDS test I got him tested for Kidneys, Diabetes, thyroid and everything including Cushings came back negative. His eating isn't frantic as he has always loved food.

I hope you get him sorted out :D

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Allison,

It is so nice to hear from you again but I am sorry to hear that Schnapps' symptoms have returned. Bless you for giving Schnapps a forever home.

As a rule, dogs with Cushing's do usually have a ravenous appetite BUT there are exceptions to that rule! Was an urinalysis done, and if so, could you post those results? Also, with the chemistry bloodwork, besides the high ALP, anything else marked abnormal?

The UC:CR test can rule out Cushing's but not rule it in because other illnesses can create a dog's body to make excess levels of cortisol.

A pot bellied appearance can be a symptom of Cushing's because the excess cortisol causes a redistribution of bodyfat to occur plus it makes the liver work harder thus enlarging the liver.

An ultrasound can be a very useful diagnostic tool as it can show abnormalities with the internal organs and if the adrenals are visualized there is a good chance that it can distinguish PDH from ADH.

Please know we are here for you so ask all the questions you want.

Love and hugs, Lori

[molly muffin]

Hi and welcome back.
The UC:CR and urinalysis is a good place to start. An ultrasound can be beneficial, If it is an option. If not, ACTH or LDDS, once everything is ruled out before starting any kind of treatment.
Also, make sure your vet has treated cushings and knows whats what, like about monitoring testing and dosage protocols. You can always print out instructions from our Resource section if there are any questions.
That is so wonderful that you gave Schnapps a forever home. Plus your friend can still come by and say hi sometimes too. What a sweetheart you are. Everyone needs a little crazy in their lives. 4 furbabies, should do the trick. :)
We actually have had a couple cushings dogs that do not have the ravenous hunger. It always makes us a bit suspicious whether anything else is going on or not. I think though that it appears on here at least, that the excessive drinking and peeing are the most common symptom.

I know you'll get this figured out. :)
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trixie]

Hi Allison,
I am so touched with the whole story of Schnapps, how nice for you to adopt her. I'm happy Schnapps ended up in your home and with other schnauzers too. :D
I have a 9yo mini schnauzer too.
My dog's appetite did increase, but not as much as her water drinking. Do you notice a lot more panting at times when you wouldn't expect it?
I really hope Schnapps does not have Cushings and that you and the Vet get to the bottom of what's going on with her.

Barbara

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Allison,

Nice to see you again and I wanted to tell you what an angel you are to take Schnapps in as your own. She's a lucky girl to have a friend like you around and so is her former mom.

The cush appetite sign is pretty standard but we have seen pups who do have Cushing's yet do not display that ravenous appetite. So, yes, it is possible even tho that would be outside the norm. Your plan for the testing is a great start and, if you can manage it, an abdominal ultrasound is one test I highly recommend because it saved my Squirt's life by finding a tumor on her spleen. The ultrasound can not only see the adrenal glands, which can help with the diagnosis, it will see many other organs and establish a base for their status.

When you get those tests done be sure to get copies and post the results here in Schnapps' thread. We can help you cipher 'em. ;)

I'm really glad Schnapps has you on her team!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[goldengirl88]

Hi:
Welcome, you already have so much good advise I just wanted to commend you on taking your friends dog in and helping him. I hope you can get the testing done and confirm what he has. If you keep a daily doggie diary on him it will help to refer to it for things you need to know. You are a wonderful friend for doing this. God Bless you and your baby.
Patti