Steph and Pallie, atypical, UTI, KIDNEY (Update: Pallie has passed)

[corgipallie]

Steph and Pallie are here!

Pallie's hanging tough. I'm taking her to the vet today to check another believed-to-be lipoma. Otherwise she's hanging in there pretty good. :D

Hope everyone had a great Easter/Passover.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Stephanie,

I was curious - do you have all lumps checked out by your vet. I wish I did, but I stopped having them checked when they kept saying they were benign. Wylie now has tons of these fatty tumors - been getting them for the last 3 years, with new ones popping up all the time - small ones, big ones, round ones, long ones... I showed the last new one I found (in his right armpit) to a vet (not his regular vet) and she just assumes its benign. Does your vet get a sample of each lump?

Just curious, I kinda don't want to deal with ANOTHER thing.

Good luck with the check-up.

-Susy

[gpgscott]

Hello to Steph and the Wonder-Corgi,

Bettin on a fatty tumor:D

sure wish fat was worth something:eek:

[Wylie's Mom]

I wish doggie pee was worth something:D!
-Susy

[frijole]

:p I hear ya Scott on the fatty tumors. I could make a fortune between my two geriatric schnauzers. I try to get the biggest bang for my buck so when they have their teeth cleaned is when they get them looked at and removed if necessary.

My Annie (she's ONLY 14) had one last time that the vet said was unlike anything he'd ever seen. He was concerned it was cancerous. It was a lipoma with a cyst on top of it. Double whammy. They cut all around it to be sure it was nothing. Poor gal had multiple layers of stitches.

[AlisonandMia]

Bettin on a fatty tumor

sure wish fat was worth something

I'm not sure it isn't worth something. What about that Beverley Hills Bio Deisel? :D (http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2008/12/doctor-turned-liposuction-waste-into.html)

Hey just realized - I could be sitting on a fortune here!:eek::eek::eek::D:D:D:o

Alison

[corgipallie]

Hi all!
Good to see you here!

I don't get every bump checked. This particular one was very very close to her mammary area. Even though she's a spayed virgin, I wanted to make sure it was benign fat and also that it wasn't going to cause any problems in that area. And being that she's atypical with elevated sex hormones, I had no idea how that played in.
Thankfully, it's just another lipoma. My vet aspirated it just to make sure. And thankfully he said it won't cause any problems if and when it gets bigger since it's bound to grow.
When I found it on Saturday I was fairly sure it was fat, but the location made me want to check it out.

I wish her lipomas could lead the country to oil independence. hee hee. ;-)

[ventilate]

Steph;
I am glad it was lypoma. Not sure if it the old dogness or the cushingsness but I tell you, if Nike didnt have all her lypomas she would weigh about 10 lbs less. The vet laughs that it is as good thing she has one big one one each of her sides or she would topple over:eek: He has all of hers maped, and he checks her over every time we go in and counts them. she has so many anymore I have lost count, He will ask me as he is examining her if he finds one if this is a new one? when she had one or 2 I could answer now she has 10 or 20 couldnt tell ya. If he has not maped it, he will aspirate it to check it out. Nike has some close to or on her mammory glands as well. Hey we need to write Obama and give him this idea, we dont need the stinken alaska pipline we have lypomas.......

Good luck
Sharon

[corgipallie]

I should have mapped hers out like you did. That's a great idea. They are all pretty much cataloged in my head, but I should have made a treasure map. She has at least a dozen, one of which is quite large.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

So glad it was just more FAT!! :D And I know you are relieved to find that out as well.

We may be on to something here with the fat and supplying energy needs! ;) Goodness knows, I can contribute enough for a small country myself! And I'm not nearly as well balanced as Niki! :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Steph,

That's great - it's just fat:D! I don't have Wylie's mapped either. I tried looking for a simple drawing to use, couldn't find one on the internet, but I think my vet has one. If I get a copy, I'll try to post it. He has so many of them, I'll probably have to enlarge the drawing to fit them all in!!

-Susy

[Squirt's Mom]

Lord! I'm glad no one is mapping my fat! :rolleyes:

[Truffa's Mom]

Hey Pallie and Steph, glad to hear everything is Great.

I could host a "party fatty tumor".... or just contribute to the oil independence....

My vet has mapped and measure every bump on my Truffa's body, sometimes I swear to him that she is loosing weight :o, but the growing fatty tumors are the ones to blame for her gain weight..... obviously Truffa sniffing his white pockets and begging next to his cookie jars totally obliterates my pity excuses...

But thanks to my stubborness and obsessiveness in checking -measuring and absorbing samples - every old and new bump, that's how we found two mast cells, and for my surprise they were the "pretty and small ones that were mast cells.... so my advice : keep on doing the oil exploration.

Marcela & The Choco Labs

[corgipallie]

so my advice : keep on doing the oil exploration.

Great advice!!!!:D

[forscooter]

Hey Steph...

So no money tree but we have oil?????

I have started calling Bailey "Lumpy Bumpy"...one of his many names...

Poor Bailey....

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[corgipallie]

I know we had some Tramadol discussions on the old CC.net, but I can't remember what everyone's feedback was.

Pallie's having some rear-leg pain/weakness, whether it's Cushings, arthritis, the fact she's 12, etc.
So we are trying a 50mg Tramadol in the morning and evening.
For those who have used it, does it work right away, or does it take a few days for results to show? Has anyone used it for arthritis and/or old age pain?

Thanks!
Steph and Pallie the wonder-corgi(hound)

[lulusmom]

Hi Steph,

Three out of five of my furkids have taken Tramadol for post surgical pain and it works very quickly. It made all them tired but it controlled the pain superbly. Lulu is a real panter when she is in pain and she was as calm as could be on Tramadol. I believe that other members have used Tramadol for severe arthritic pain and hopefully they will be along to share their experiences.

Usually a vet can tell the difference between arthritis and muscle weakness due to cushing's. Did you have xrays done and/or did the vet manipulate the joints? I personally would want to know which condition is causing the problem because if it is muscle weakness due to cushing's, Tramadol is not the answer. When was Pallie's adrenal hormones last tested and can you post the results?

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html

Glynda

[Carol G]

Hi Steph,

McGill (16-1/2 year old, Australian Cattle Dog mix with Atypical) is on a high dose of tramadol for his arthritis (50 mg 3 times a day) plus Previcox.

I saw a real improvement when we added the Tramadol to the NSAID (Deramaxx at the time). Our IM vet says that there is a combination effect with Tramadol & a NSAID.

He started out with the tramadol at 2 times a day and we upped it not too long ago. I think it really helps him a lot and I don't see any side effects. He has bloodwork done regularly to be sure the NSAID isn't causing any problems.

Little tip on the tramadol, ask your vet for a written Rx and get it filled at Wal-Mart or Costco. My cost went from $31 for 90 to $11 for 120.

I think the muscle weakness from his Atypical (which went undiagnosed for much too long) probably made the arthritis worse and now because of the arthritis, rebuilding the muscle is challenging -- not to mention his age.

Carol, Winnie (always), McGill & Atty Cat

[corgipallie]

Thanks for the Tramadol info. Hopefully it will work. My vet won't put Pallie on an NSAID because she's Atypical and thinks it will cause an ulcer, so Tramadol is our only option right now.

I do have to be careful with it because she's on SAMe, in her Denamarin for her liver. In humans it has caused seratonin syndrome, but my vet said there has not been any noted cases in dogs, but theoretically it could happen with high doses or long-term. So we obviously don't want that. He says to use it as needed. But with NSAIDs out of the picture, Tramadol is our only choice (aside from stopping the Denamarin). He is not concerned about seratonin syndrome happening. I hope he's right.

(and yes, I get it at the grocery store. $4!! I get her Benezapril there too for $4)

[Carol G]

That's interesting about the NSAID and Atypical because McGill is Atypical also (treated with Melatonin & Lingans only). He does take Pepcid AC as a precaution because he's on the NSAID. Why does your vet think the NSAID is more likely to cause an ulcer in an Atypical Cushings dog?

I just started McGill on SAMe for the arthritis and then I read about the seratonin syndrome. I had checked with the IM vet before starting him on the SAMe but once I read about the seratonin syndrome, I called the IM and asked specifically about it. He too wasn't concerned.

I will be watching to see how Pallie does.

Carol, Winnie (always), McGill & Atty Cat

[gpgscott]

Steph,

It is my experience that the NSAIDS are prescribed in doses way larger than needed for relief from symptoms. Me, I would start at 1/4 the recommended dose and work from there.

Adaquane is a good treatment, and when purchased online is not expensive.

When needed I give Moria Tramadol at 1/2 the recommended dose, and it works fine. A larger dose makes her more stupid than I am.

I have for the past 3 or so months been giving Moria ranatidine every morning (same as famantodine, pepcid, tagamet) and it is working well, she eats and is doing famously.

It is a balancing act with an elder. You and Pallie will figure it out.

Hope this is some help.

Scott

[corgipallie]

Carol,
I'm glad you checked with the IM about the SAMe and tramadol. That makes me feel better.

I'm not sure exactly what the link is between atypical and NSAIDs but my vet doesn't want Pallie on them due to the risk of an ulcer. If the tramadol works, we won't need an NSAID anyway.
I can vouch that I don't want Pallie on NSAIDs if her risk of stomach problems is high. I am on stomach medication because of NSAIDs that I have to take because other meds won't help me. I deal with it, but unless Pallie is really suffering (which thankfully she's not), I will follow my vet's advice for now.

The Pepcid AC definitely helps the stomach with NSAIDs!

I gave Pallie 1/2 a Tramadol tonight (25mg), and she played a little squeaky toy in the living room. :D

[AlisonandMia]

If there is a problem with Tramadol there is also acetaminophen/paracetamol. When Mia had an ear infection the vet suggested it for pain relief if necessary - a NSAID was contraindicated because if things had got that bad she would have been on pred anyway. The vet gave me, in writing, the dose the correct dose for Mia and the mg/kg dose in case I used another preparation. I never needed to use it but this is what the vet suggested and I got the impression they recommend it quite frequently.

I know it isn't normally recommended, presumably because they don't want people just popping Tylenol down their pets' throats willy-nilly:eek::eek::eek: but I gather it does work well for dogs. Acetaminophen/paracetamol is absolutely lethal for cats so that could be another reason it isn't used as a "pet med" to any great degree or at least it isn't officially mentioned a lot.

This is what it says about using it in dogs in the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracetamol):


Although paracetamol is believed to have no significant anti-inflammatory activity, it has been reported to be as effective as aspirin in the treatment of musculoskeletal pain in dogs.[56] A paracetamol-codeine product (trade name Pardale-V)[57] licensed for use in dogs is available on veterinary prescription in the UK.[58] It should be administered to dogs only on veterinary advice. The main effects of toxicity in dogs is liver damage.[59] N-acetylcysteine treatment is efficacious in dogs when administered within a few hours of paracetamol ingestion.[56]

Alison

PS: Another thing that is great for "NSAID tummy" is Slippery Elm. After taking NSAIDS on and off for years for migraine I find that I not only have to take it "with food" as advised but am best using Slippery Elm as well with every dose. In fact, Slippery Elm works for me even on an empty stomach (I guess the Slippery Elm is "food" when it comes to stomachs and NSAIDS).

[BestBuddy]

Don't know about dogs but I have found ginger tablets help my NSAID tummy.
Jenny

[Barney's Mom]

I am a huge fan of Tramadol. When Barney's back flares up one Tramadol is usually all that is needed to set him right. He must have a huge tolerance for drugs though, he is more playful, and only rarely sleepy. There have been times where I have given him a Tramadol 50mg and a 5mg Valium and it doesn't seem to phase him mentally, but he does quit limping :)

I guess every dog is different. I keeping Barney away from the NSAIDS as long as possible.

CHeryl

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

I'm sorry Pallie is hurting. :( It breaks my heart to see them in pain.

We use Tramadol here, too. Ruby uses it and so does Squirt, both as needed. Squirt weighs 14lbs and she gets 1/4 of a 50mg tablet and that usually does the trick for her. Ruby, at 50 lbs, gets 50-100mg. They can have those doses twice a day. So far, I have seen no problems with it at all.

I do have some thoughts on Pallie's legs, tho. One, Corgie's are built long like Doxy's so are prone to spinal problems, as I'm sure you know. ;) Did your vet check to be sure this isn't something with her spine? A friend of mine has Corgie's and one of hers has real back troubles, so I couldn't help but think of this when I read about Pallie. Another thought, is the vet sure this is arthritis and not the Cushing's acting up? Does Pallie have any other cush signs showing up lately? I hate to bring this up, but remember that Atypical pups can become true cush pups with elevated cortisol. Also, has Pallie gained any weight recently? If she has, that with her long construction could be causing some of what you are seeing. As one with arthritis, I can tell you that losing weight is one of the best treatments but, dang! that's hard to do! Especially for one who loves food as much as I do! :p

I hope I am just being my usual worry-wart self and that all my concerns have been addressed. Since I know you are a great mom, I am sure you have already covered these bases plus for Pallie's pain but I just gotta mouth off sometimes. :p

Hope sweet Pallie is feeling better!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

The tramadol is helping! I've been only giving her 1/2 to 1 50mg pill a day and it seems to help those legs/back of hers. She took Tramadol for her back last summer and it helped some then but then we didn't need it anymore, then she was back on it for her liver problem, and then off of it after the mass we found started shrinking.
Now,I suspect with her age now her legs and back might be a little more sore these days and her legs aren't helping her back obviously, and vice versa.
I just got back from the vet because she has some painful ear inflammation that I had to get some medicine for.
Poor Pallie. But I think we're on the upswing. I hope!!
We love you all!:)

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Steph,

I sure hope Pallie is on the road to recovery with that ear inflammation too. Poor Pallie, it's bad enough to have the back and legs hurting...it's just plain adding insult to injury getting inflamed ears on top of it all. From one who knows....growing old along with the assorted things that come with it stinks sometimes!! Of course, I'll happily accept growing old as opposed to the alternative. :eek: :eek:

Sending some healing vibes for Pallie.....

Louise

[gpgscott]

I see Pallie has a new boat.

Hope you all are enjoying the pretty spring.

Scott

[forscooter]

Poor Pallsters!!! Sending healing thoughts for those ears! Did you tell her it comes with being a hound-dog??? :(

And the back/leg connection...poor Pallie is built like a suspension bridge of sorts too...kind of like the boys....and it does get strained sometimes. I am glad the Tramadol is helping!

Big slobby kissies coming from her hound bro!!!! And me too!!! LOL!

[AlisonandMia]

Is Pallie on SAM-e? Apparently it not only helps the liver but can also helpwith arthritis etc. See this thread: http://www.k9diabetes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=812 (Where Jenny has been experimenting on herself, SAM-e is discussed and you can get to learn all about "nuf-nufs" to boot!:D)

Alison

[corgipallie]

Beth- hahahah I never thought of Pallie as a suspension bridge! That is hysterical!!:D

Yes, Alison, she is. SAM-e is one of the 2 ingredients in her Denamarin, the liver medication she takes ever since our trauma with the degenerative tissue my vet found which at first was thought to be cancer. He still has her take it once a day, in the morning on an empty stomach so it absorbs fully. The doggie internal clock amazes me. She whines for breakfast EXACTLY one hour after she gets her denamarin, which is the minimum amount of time between the denamarin and food. Glad to see it helps arthritis too! :D

[Truffa's Mom]

Hey Pallie & Steph, glad to see the Tramadol is working. We are having quite of a similar problem here, apparently they have their secret cell phones lines and they start acting the same!!!!

We started walking on three legs yesterday. I remember that our vet has always recommended Tramadol or Adequane over any NSAID, and I preferred it that way too; as Alison I also tried all kind of pain relievers for my "headaches", now known as migraines, and I almost destroyed my GI tract, so I know first hand how NSAIDS affects other internal organs.

I hope our dear Pallie gets better. Love the picture on the boat!!!

Marcela & The Choco Labs

[corgipallie]

Glad to have a great new home!

[Barney's Mom]

Welcome Pallie and Steph!

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Steph and Pallie...

Welcome, and great to see you here at our brand new home! Munchie says hows about some new Pallie pictures??? One with her itsy-bitsy, teenie-weenie yellow polka-dot bikini would work....aroooooo!!!

Louise

[forscooter]

Hey Steph...

So glad you got here! How is Ms. Pallie feeling with the Tramadol btw?

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[lulusmom]

Welcome to our new home, Steph and Pallie. Glad to see you both made it. I think we should have had prizes for the first members through the portal huh? We'll all have to settle for some really yummy virtual margaritas. My mouth is puckering up already and look ma, no hangover. :D:D:D

Glynda

[corgipallie]

Pallie's doing pretty good with her tramadol. She goes to the vet next week for some blood and urine tests (for her kidneys).

She is just about to celebrate her 2 year anniversary for starting treatment. She started on May 26, 2007. It's an easy day to remember for her anniversary because it's my birthday. ;)

[gpgscott]

Hi Steph,

Glad you made it OK, I have merged the new thread you started here with the former one from K9D cushings forum.

Scott

[forscooter]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEPH!!!!!!:D:D:D

AND

HAPPY 2 YEAR ANNIVERSARY PALLIE, YOU SEXY GIRL IN YOUR BIKINI!!!!

I hope you both have a wonderful happy day!!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie...and Allo too!

[Roxee's Dad]

:D:D:D Happy Anniversary Pallie :D:D:D
and

:D:D:D Happy Birthday Steph :D:D:D

[mytil]

Happy Anniversary too Pallie girl from me. :D :D

And Steph HAPPY BIRTHDAY :D :D

What a great day for the both of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T. :D

[corgipallie]

Thanks you guys!

Pallie and I are heading home (and Apollo too) from a weekend at the coast. I needed a get-away and Pallie did great (after she decided what day she wanted to go).

Her new avatar is her itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka dot bikini.

After Pallie's diagnosis of Atypical Cushings, I did research and went to the store and got the flaxseed oil and melatonin and we started treatment 2 years ago today. I got the meds, but waited a day or 2 to start because I thought I'd never forget the day I started treatment if it was on my birthday (and my 30th at that!!). So here we are... 2 years later, 12 year old Pallie, 32 year old me... and I feel very blessed.

[Harley PoMMom]

:D HAPPY BIRTHDAY STEPH and HAPPY 2 YEAR ANNIVERSARY PALLIE :D

Lori and Harley

[labblab]

"Happy/Happy!!!!!!!" from me, too...:D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :) :D :p :)

Hugs and scritches,
Marianne

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

:p:):p:)Happy 2nd Anniversary, Pallie!!!:p:):p:)

Munchie is sending some special MiniSchnauz slurps your way and says bow-wow-wow-wow!!....thanks for the bikini pic.


&

:p:):p:)Wishing you a Very Happy Birthday, Steph!!:p:):p:)

Hope you both have a wonderful day!!

Louise & Munchie

[Wylie's Mom]

Happy/Happy! from me too.

Love, love, love the bikini:p:D:p!!!

-Susy

[gpgscott]

Happy, happy and a big thumbs up to the itsy bitsy:D

[corgipallie]

Thanks all!!

Pallie's bikini proves you don't have to be young and thin to flaunt it on the beach! hahaha.

Here are some photos. I only have them so far posted on Facebook, but it's a public album so you shouldn't have any viewing problems:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=22448&id=1483818505&l=65d435e6ff

[frijole]

Too cute! That part of the world is so beautiful... I will be there next weekend. Do you mind 2 old schnauzers? :o

The limo is great and looks like fun too. Happy day!
Kim

[Wylie's Mom]

Enjoyed the pics - I love beach pictures... I'm thinking about a limo for Wylie someday... If I do get one and have him ride in it, I'll put a sign around his neck that says "Mush, Mush!!":p.

-Susy

[Truffa's Mom]

The pictures are spectacular!!!!

[corgipallie]

Well, another Pallie setback.
Her blood test came back hypothyroidism. I haven't really talked to my vet much -- he just emailed me the lab results and that her levels were low and to think about starting treatment for it.

Her T4 is .6 and normal is 1.0-4.0
Her Free T4 is 6 and normal is 8-40
Her T3/TSH/TAA are all normal.

I can't remember who else has hypothyroidism. If anyone has any advice/feedback, please let me know. I'm upset that her body is attacking her thyroid. Damn Cushings (well, damn atypical cushings). :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(


This just in from my vet:
here is the bottom line: This is very common in most breeds. We see it all of the time. It is not life-threatening but at some point it will affect how she feels. That is, it makes dogs feel sluggish, pant alot, gain weight and have hair/skin issues. It can also slow the immune response down.

I am not saying we have to even treat her since we just found this out but I want you to know what it is. It is simply treated with thyroid hormone supplement twice a day. Rare dogs feel hyper on the meds (real rare). Most just feel better over all.

[forscooter]

Steph...

Sue (Zoe) can help you....she knows lots and lots and lots about the thyroid thing. I think she has done lots of research and I know she gave me lots of info when I wasn't sure about the Doobs. I am wondering if that's why Pallie was feeling so funky when you first tried to leave for the trip???

But I am told it is very common. Once you have an endocrine disorder, it is much more common to have another.

That and damn Percy's visit and she must be feeling quite icky!

Healing thyroid and anti-Percy hugs coming straight at ya!!! Beth, Bailey and always Doobie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Steph,

Hypothyroidism isn't that bad and is easily treated. Of course, that's another pill to remember. :rolleyes:;) And her numbers aren't that low so starting now is what Dr. Jean Dodd usually recommends. Dr. Dodd is an expert on the thyroid. Here are some links about Dr. Dodd and thryoid issues that you may find helpful:

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/DODDS-RESUME.HTM
http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ARTICLES.HTM
http://www.foxfirepublishing.com/doddsarticle.html

I bet this is why she wasn't so keen on taking the trip at first. From personal experience, I can tell you it is amazing how much better all around treating an under active thyroid will make one feel! Scott has seen the same with Moria and I am sure you will see that with Pallie, too.

Did your doc say that the Atypical could cause the thyroid to develop problems? Wondering if that is something new to worry about with Squirt. :rolleyes:

Hope Pallie is feeling better real soon! Let us know how you decide to proceed...we know you well enough now to be nosy. :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Thanks you guys!
Leslie, I'll check out those links.
Another pill to remember is no big deal. She gets enough of them that one more isn't going to make a difference.

I read that 1/2 of hypothyroidism in dogs is caused by the body attacking its own thyroid, due to auto-immune diseases. Since Cushings (and atypical) is auto-immune, then it makes sense that it is all connected. But again, I really haven't talked to my vet much -- just the email he sent me and then my questions back to him.

I hope treatment makes her feel better. She has a UTI again too, so hopefully the Cipro will kick in soon too.

I hate it when she feels lowsy. It makes my heart sink.

[corgipallie]

more from my vet.
I feel a little better now...especially her body not attacking her thyroid.:D

Couple of things to think about >

The list of symptoms you sent could be caused by Cushing's as you know. Her T4/FT4 have never been low as far as I know. So I doubt that she is having any effects from the low hormones yet.

Also, her thyroid antibody is normal so she is not attacking her thyroid. Her TSH is normal as well which means her body isn't telling her to produce hormone yet.

Personnally? I would either recheck the panel in 3 months or start her on a low-ish dose.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Steph,

I don't know what to tell you, but before Wylie's Cushing's dx, his T4 was boarderline low, but in the range... this is from my first post on cc.net:


A year later (Spring ‘08) Wylie’s fur still had not grown back in the area that was shaved. I saw another vet at the same facility – Dr. LG. She looked at the previous hypothyroid test results and suggested treating him for it. We started with .7 mg of Soloxine for a couple weeks, then did a T4. It was too high so she lowered the dosage to .5 mg. Ran the T4, again and said it was on the high end of normal so she wanted to lower the dosage to .3 mg. In the meantime I had Dr. L look at a few of Wylie’s lumps (so far, I’m told they are all fatty tissue), I told him that Dr. LG wanted to continue treating with .3 mg of Soloxine when Wylie tested high while on .5mg. Dr. L said to don’t even bother with the .3 mg, and I agreed.

From what I recall, he had the Soloxine twice daily and basically, you would keep testing to get the right dosage... from my experience, I agree with your vet about rechecking or starting him on a low dose;). Also, if I'm recalling correctly, you want to be careful not to give too high of a dose because that would raise his blood pressure.

Wylie had a T4 done before his dentist appt. last December - it slipped just below range and I then had the Mich. State U thyroid panel done:

TT4 15 RR 15-67 nmol/L; TT3 1.1 RR 1.0-2.5 nmol/L; FT4 (by dialysis) 13 RR 6-42 pmol/L; FT3 2.3 L RR 4.5-12.0 pmol/L; TSH 10 RR 0-37 mU/L

The vets concluded that he was low due to his Cushing's (not being controlled well enough), even though the free T3 was low and several others were boarderline low. So we haven't treated him.

IMO - I think hypothyroidism is confusing... I read the Jean Dodds stuff and others, plus articles regarding humans... it seems that different vet & doctors have different ideas of which "T" is the better indicator.

The Atypical thing does give us another factor to think of - we should start keeping mental notes on Hypothyroid & Atypical only pups. Maybe you can email Dr. O about this... I wonder if someone already has??

-Susy

[gpgscott]

Hi Steph,

What determines primary hypothyroid is low T4 in the presence of elelvated TSH.

I am sure Deb will weigh in on this but you have normal TSH and slightly low T4.

I think this comports with 'sick euthyroid'

I think this is treated differently than administration of synthroid.

Scott

[frijole]

My Haley is hypothyroid - was discovered at time of cushings dx. It is a piece of cake compared to everything else. I give her a pill a day and that is all. $8 for a bottle of 60. Life is good. :D

[corgipallie]

Thanks everyone again for your help!
I am going to give myself a crash course in Hypothyroidism tonight learning about all these T's and what they mean. My vet is out of the office tomorrow so I'll touch base with him on Thursday and hopefully know what I'm talking about and what he's talking about.

Pallie's GI has had a rough evening. I think she's a little better now after her cipro, an immodium, and some yogurt. She was not feeling well at all when I got home from work. I'm sure the GI issues are somehow connected to her UTI. They often are.

[corgipallie]

And if it helps at all, here are her normal numbers:

T3 68
TSH .42
TAA 12%

[zoesmom]

Hey Steph -

Well, Pallie has joined the hypo-t club, huh? Quite a number of the cush pups have low thyroid. Zoe's isn't sick euthyroid, tho. That is, she stayed hypothyroid after we started treating for cushings.

Overall, a pretty simple thing to treat. Pills are cheap, by comparison, too. Zoe takes twice a day and we used to test every 3 mos., but lately it's been every six since her T4 has finally settled down. The testing s/b like in cushings....four hours after pills. I bet Pallie will start to feel better once it's being treated. The goal, of course, is to have them between 1. and 4. on the T4. Zoe's gotten too high a couple times and was showing signs of hyperthyroid. Her vets like to see her near the upper end of that range (like 2.5 - 4) when they do the four hour test, so there's room for a little more downward trend as the day wears on.

I gotta say, since we started that darn tylan (the chicken antibiotic) for Zoe's GI troubles last year, the uti's have come to a virtual screechin' halt. (Not to mention, her water consumption is way better and consistent). That drug seems to have taken care of several life-long problems in the Zo, even tho' nobody has offered me an explanation as to why. Even her T4 used to jump all around, but that's not changed lately either. Things have stayed pretty steady on the tylan - all except for the acth, naturally! I keep forgetting to ask if she's now concentrating her urine any better. She always had low USG's in the past, but I swear her pee is lookin' a little bit colorful these days. But for me, the no uti's is probably the best part --- better than the no "GAS" :eek::p:rolleyes:;) Sue/Zo

[acushdogsmom]

Hi Steph and Pallie!

We've got a thread in our Resources Forum about hypothyroidism. So you might want to start your reading there.

(click here) Hypothyroidism/Disorders of the thyroid gland (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=191)

Also want to send you some (((hugs!))) :D

And when you get a chance, I hope you'll post some Pallie pics for us. You can have more than one album here, so there's lots of room for pics.

[corgipallie]

So check out what I found doing some research online...

Scientists at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign have found that a drug commonly used to treat dogs for bacterial infections induces hypothyroidism. The antibiotic trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole (T/S) consistently blocks production of thyroid hormones in dogs causing hypothyroidism. Hypothyroidism caused by short-term administration of T/S is reversible when treatment is discontinued.

Dr. Campbell's research found that dogs being treated with T/S at a dose of 3 0 mg/kg twice daily with develop iatrogenic hypothyroidism within one to six weeks of treatment. All thyroid hormones are affected with marked depression of total T4, free T4, total T3, free T3 and reverse T3 and marked elevation of endogenous TSH concentrations. Dogs with low serum thyroid levels should be checked for a history of T/S administration. Retesting of thyroid hormones should be done after the dog has been off T/S for a minimum of three weeks.

and...


The use of some medications, particularly the sulfa-containing antibiotics, affects the activity of the thyroid glands, and may result in low out put of thyroxine. This form of hypothyroidism may be transient, because the gland may recover once the drug is stopped.

and...

The T4 level (also called the total T4 level) is measured commonly and is included in many routine screening blood panels. It would seem that a low T4 would indicate hypothyroidism and a normal T4 would indicate normal thyroid function. Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. Dogs taking certain drugs (most notably seizure medications phenobarbitaland potassium bromide; prednisoneor other corticosteroids; non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs; the heart medication propranolol; the behavior drug clomipramine; or sulfa class antibiotics) or with illnesses other than thyroid disease often have depressed T4 secretion. These dogs will have low T4 levels but are not hypothyroid. This means a normal T4 indicates normal thyroid function but a low T4 may or may not indicate hypothyroidism. There is also a grey zone where T4 results are considered not definitively normal and not definitively abnormal. In short, T4 alone is not adequate to make a diagnosis of hypothyroidism.

And I found this because...

Sulfa-Based Antibiotics ( Sulfonamides) such as:

* Penicillins
* Tetracycline
* Doxycycline
* Amoxicillin
* Ampicillin
* Zithromax/azithromycin
* Beta-Lactams
* Ciprofloxacin

I am going to have to talk to my vet about this on Thursday. I wonder if the Cipro for her UTI (she was on it for 6 weeks, off a few weeks, and then just started again yesterday for Percy's return) has anything to do with these T4 numbers. The blood work was drawn before she restarted the Cipro, but I wonder if it could still have an effect on the results. Or maybe she truly is hypothyroid. Worth exploring...

[ventilate]

Steph;
my vet tested Nike for hypothyroid her T4 was a tad low and he wanted to start meds. At the same time we went to the IMS, she sent out a free t4, or T4Free, cant ever remember which it is. but it came back normal so no meds hers was due to cushings. It was a year later my vet sent out another FT4 and it came back in the middle of the low range, so truly low so she started meds.
Before starting the meds maybe have your vet check the FT4, that way you will know for sure it is not just from the Cushings.
Sharon

[zoesmom]

Hmmm....that's interesting about the trim-sulf (a/b). The first time I ever gave that drug to Zoe (for a uti, of course!:rolleyes:) was when she had her very first seizure. She was only about 1 at the time. Of course, she's never had the drug again. And didn't have any seizures again, until several years later which is what led us to the hypothyroid possibility. But if trim-sulf drops the thyroid level, as it says, then maybe that's what triggered that seizure as they can occur in cases of hypothyroidism.

Have you considered getting Dr. Dodd's full thyroid panel? If the info isn't in the resource section, I have it somewhere on my computer (instructions, prices, forms for submitting.) She's the authority on thyroid problems, from what I hear. Sue

[corgipallie]

Sue, I haven't yet considered anything. First I want to get this UTI under control because she's feeling icky and isn't eating her food, which is rare for her. She'll eat anything else though! Then I'll chat with my vet to see what he wants to do, whether wait a few months, or start a low dose, and see what he even knows about this sulfa-based antibiotic connection to thyroid secretions.
Too much to think about these days!
I so appreciate everyone's knowledge and feedback!!!

[corgipallie]

So I'm glad I checked with my vet about the Cipro because he wrote this:
Ciprofloxacin is not a sulfa, it is a fluroquinolone so don't worry about that.
So that means 1. Internet isn't always right and 2. Pallie's hypothyroidism is real.

So right now the big concern with her is her lack of appetite. She won't eat her own food, or yogurt, or the lunch meat turkey she gets her meds in. In fact, almost every food she gets a lot of, she's not eating. She'll eat some of Apollo's food, she'll eat ground turkey meat, rice, cottage cheese, bread, her snack treats, etc. But nothing that she eats regularly. The last few meals that she ate her own food (1 of which I tricked her into eating by putting rice with it), she threw it up. She's not a vomit doggie. When she throws up, something doesn't feel right. Yet, perhaps she has a mental thing about eating her own food. So I don't know what's up with that.
She's also moderately lethargic. The Cipro should hopefully get rid of the infection soon, but in the meantime, she has little energy. She's alert though and barks and noises and words she knows to bark at, like "Don't freak out."

My vet said to try a pepcid twice a day for a few days to see if it helps at all. I guess he's thinking it's all related to the Cipro/infection. I know it takes cipro 3-5 days to really make you feel better, and we just go through 3 full days. Overall, I think she's pretty stable, but obviously doesn't feel well. Nothing else on her blood work, aside from the slight creatinine numbers and the hypothyroidism indicate anything severe. The urine test also just showed bacteria and blood so we know the infection is there.

She's never really lost her appetite this long on her regular food. We tried s/d once for bladder stones and she hates that stuff. But her normal foods have never been an issue.

Anyone have any similar stories?

[maggiebeagle]

As a clinical microbiologist, I can tell you none of the drugs on that list is a "sulfa drug".
Virginia

[corgipallie]

I didn't give Pallie her Cipro this morning. She threw up again last night. I emailed my vet too and he said there's big-time nausea going on. So we're going to wait 24 hours then try some Clavamox.
Her appetite and lethargy were getting worse yesterday and it was scaring me. She did eat a little rice, cottage cheese, yogurt and ground turkey this morning. As of when I left for work this morning, it was still in her tummy.
It's so strange that she was on Cipro for 6 weeks with no problems and now her body is having trouble. -

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

Two thoughts...(I KNOOW!!!! Who would'a thunk it?!)

Have you noticed any correlation between the UTIs and Pallie's exposure to lakes, etc?

Is there any possibility she could have gotten into something at the beach that has made her sick?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Yeah, Leslie I actually have thought about it and even mentioned it to my vet a few times. He said it would be a stretch. He said it technically could be possible but not likely. And she gets UTIs in the winter too when she isn't even near water.

He thinks her UTIs are mainly due to her weakened immune system on top of calciumized (is that a word) crystals in her kidneys that can cause irritation/infection, a few little stones in her bladder that he only wants to take out if it's an emergency (which now I'm putting more thought into), and how low she is to the ground when she squats.

Percy just won't leave Pallie alone. She's had UTI troubles all her life. She first had stones when she was 2. They were struvite so they dissolved. But she's had crystals and UTI troubles ever since.

[forscooter]

Steph...

Just a thought....when Scoobie got diagnosed with his bladder stones it was bc I took him to the vet bc he was literally projectile vomiting. The vet said his system was just so irritated and infected it was making him sick. He did have the IBD too but he became symptomatic bc of the stones...Maybe get the stones re-checked if they haven't been looked at in a while?

Also, my other thought was, and I know Pallie is Atypical, but could her levels be off? Could this be why she is feeling so yucko? When was the last time those were done?

Sending Pallie hungry-making hugs!!!!! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[corgipallie]

Maybe get the stones re-checked if they haven't been looked at in a while?

Yeah, I think I am. That's what's been running through my head lately.


Also, my other thought was, and I know Pallie is Atypical, but could her levels be off? Could this be why she is feeling so yucko? When was the last time those were done?

When I took her to the vet last week for her urine and blood draw, I did ask my vet about it. He said until she becomes more symptomatic with Cushings stuff, he didn't feel the need to. He said that if she had more Cushings symptoms or they became worse, then yes. But until then, he said no. He also has told me many times that if she's stable on her treatment now, then not to worry. And he's said that even if her levels are off or worse, our course of action would be the same since she can't have Trilo and he doesn't want her on Lysodren unless she absolutely has to be, even a maintenance dose.

We both feel this latest bout of lethargy and vomiting is from the Cipro. She was fine on Monday morning and this all started about an hour after her first dose Monday night. Thank goodness for my daily journal writing!!!

Now, the stones would be a different story. She had a stone removed 2 1/2 years ago, and look, here we are again with tiny stones and more UTIs. It's just endless.

[forscooter]

I was thinking maybe some levels were too low rather than being too high....not sure how likely that would be but it was going through my head...I know you wouldn't see a drop like you would with the other meds but still, I guess what I am wondering is if just over the course of time, things are on the lower end...if that's even possible.

the stones should show up in a quick x-ray, right? Maybe give her another day or two off the antibiotic and see....and if she's not better, check the stones.

Cipro is a "funny" antibiotic...I have taken it with no problems and then took it and my stomach was all sorts of screwed up. Hopefully if she can keep the yogurt down and with it out of her system, she'll quiet down. And maybe just chicken broth it today with a little white rice and let her system settle?

Poor Pallie!!! Sending you a margarita and Pallie a cranberry tonic!!!
Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[corgipallie]

I should take it and see if I throw up.

[forscooter]

Oooooooooo....I don't think it works that way, LOL....and anyway, experiment after Pallie starts feeling better so you can have her take care of you!

And corgi butts are the best, aren't they???

[forscooter]

I should add there is a method or reason to my madness about the levels...I don't have a copy of it, but I do remember Dr. O saying something about Scoobie when he told me to give the melatonin with the keto after I switched him off of Lysodren. It was something about watching that we didn't go too low bc melatonin would also effect the cortisol....not that he would come crashing down necessarily....but it was something I had to be aware of...

So, I am not sure bc Pallie isn't on one of the stronger drugs if it would work the same or not...:confused::confused::confused:...and I don't know that she would get this sick...but I am wondering just as a remote possibility of all else fails if she could be feeling yucky from the levels and then the UTI on top...but it is suspicious if you started on Monday and she was fine until then...I would think it is the antibiotic...

we need an anti- antibiotic for when things go wrong!

[corgipallie]

so just a quick update on Pallie...
No more Cipro ever! She got her last dose on Thursday evening. I talked to my vet and told him I was stopping it because Pallie was not feeling good. She's been throwing up a little food once or twice a day, depending on the day. She knows the food she'll eat and the ones she won't.

Among other support and suggestions, he said to wait 24 hours and try Clavamox for this dumb UTI.
I waited til 11am today (Saturday) and gave it to her. She threw up at 1pm, 2 hours after the Clavamox. I have no idea if it got absorbed or not. There wasn't a pill in the present on the floor (I went through it with a rubber glove on). She seems a little more upbeat over all, but still lethargic and still nauseated.
My vet said he could give her an anti-nausea drug, but we both agreed to hold off just another day or so because adding another medication to the mix can get even more confusing, and it also can be sedative, which on top of her lethargy would make me have an anxiety attack not knowing. If she was throwing up a lot or without it being food related, I would be more favorable and he agreed. I hate hate hate that she feels bad -- my heart keeps sinking. But hiding further symptoms or reactions could be bad too.

She took 3 days (6 doses) of Cipro, has been off for almost 2 days, trying Clavamox, still lethargic and still throwing up a little.
Overall, she's no worse. But she's not too much better either. Maybe the Clavamox will help the UTI and it will make her feel better. And hopefully the cipro effects will fade soon.
She did fine on it the first time around, then she was off for a month, but her body apparently doesn't want it anymore.

And to think I could have almost killed my baby with antibiotics...and it's my fault she is feeling so bad when I should have stopped the meds sooner than 3 days...
the guilt is settling in...:(

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Steph,

No guilt allowed! You did what the docs said, you knew when she started feeling bad and made the connection, you stopped the med when that connection was confirmed, you love Pallie and always do the best for her....so NO guilt!!

You are wise to let the Cipro get out before adding another AB, IMHO. Cipro makes me sick every time I have to take it. UCK! I can't remember what we used for Ruby's UTI....seems like Clavamox and then we added something else...started with a "B" seems like. Lots of help there, huh? :rolleyes:

If the vomiting continues for much longer, I would have her checked for an unrelated cause just to be sure. But then I'm a twitcher. :p

Hope she gets to feeling better real soon!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Today's update:
Pallie has still been throwing up about once a day from the stomach irritation and my vet was aware of that from my emails, but today's had a little blood. I got in to see Dr. T and we talked a bit, and I hounded him with questions and possible causes, and he's pretty sure it's the Cirpro. He said he has taken Cipro before. He was in vet school and got something from a calf. He said it felt like it tore up his GI. But then he's taken it other times and his wife has taken it with no problems. I guess it's just one of those things.

He put her on Carafate. He can't confirm or deny an ulcer unless he scopes it, but the Carafate will treat the ulcer and the inflammation regardless. If she's not feeling better in 5 days, then I'll go from there. I don't really want to knock her out unless I have to obviously. The anestesias scare me.

So onward... Clavamox (he said to continue since if any reax from it would be from the other end and unlikely since she handles it so well), Pepcid, Benezapril, Lignans, and Carafate.
Denamarin and the other supplements are on hold. Melatonin is under the skin.

Once she feels better, we'll look into the UTI causes and the thyroid.

Steph and Pallie

[Kiska'smom]

Hi Steph,

I'm so sorry to hear that Pallie hasn't been feeling well. Poor pup. I hope that she rallies soon. As for feeling guilty, I know that it's a natural reaction; but no one is a better mom! You can't blame yourself for doing what professionals recommended. It sounds to me like you were right on top of things! That's what good moms do!

Big hugs,

Jeanne, Kiska, and Sammie

[forscooter]

Hi all...

I asked Steph if I could come here and post to you all until she can get back herself, and she said it would be OK.

I wanted to let you know that Pallie is feeling pretty sick right now. She was still vomiting and the lethargy she had returned yesterday. Steph took her in to the vet yesterday and this is what the blood showed: "Creatinine was higher than 7 and BUN over 130."

Pallie spent the night at the ER vet on an IV drip getting fluids. She will be going to her regular vet this morning and remaining on the IVs through the weekend. Right now, her kidneys are feeling pretty sick.

I asked Steph if I could post this bc I know the power of this place. I know the power of having all your support and positive thoughts. Steph is of course, busy with Pallie, so she may not be able to post much herself but I am sure she will be along when she is able and feeling up to it.

She also made sure Pallie has her magical duckie which has been helping her through this past week....

So please, for Steph and Pallie, I am asking that we send our loudest magical quack quack quacks out to Pallie throughout this weekend and our biggest positive thoughts and support out to them both as they try and get Pallie back on her feet!

So, Pallie.....QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!

And Steph, all my strength coming straight at ya!

Love and hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie (who is still watching out for you too!)

[mytil]

Oh my gosh,

Thank you for posting this update Bethy.

I am sending tons and tons and tons of quacks for your Pallie.

Everything is crossed here
(((hugs))))
Terry

[frijole]

Sending hugs and prayers out to Pallie. I am glad she is at the vet's.

Trying to figure all of this out. Beth, did all of this start because of a UTI and the drug Pallie was given? Seems strange. Is there something I am missing? Trying to figure out what is going on.

Thanks
Kim

[forscooter]

Kim....You know I am not 100% sure what caused this. Pallie was being treated for the UTI and has had a chronic renal issue. But, around the time the UTI was diagnosed, she had blood work which came back just fine...it was good. She was put on Cipro for the UTI. She was vomiting quite a bit and Steph put her on chicken baby food, chicken broth, Pedialyte and kept her diet very light. She also had some of the A/D food.

After a few days (I have to go back through my messages and check the timelines on all of this), she came off the Cipro thinking that was making her so sick. She got switched to Clavamox. The Cipro can have some nasty side effects. She improved for a few days, the vomiting decreased to maybe once every 20-24 hours. But then she vomited a small amount of red blood and dark stuff.

Steph took her back in and the vet felt she had developed an ulcer possibly from the Cipro. So Carfate was added and again she seemed to improve.

Yesterday, she woke up and was vomiting again, no blood, but she was also back to being pretty lethargic. Steph brought her in to get labs done and she also had an ultrasound that looked "beautiful". The vet was starting her on Cerenia for the vomiting. But the labs came back with the kidney values out of range and so they decided to keep her in the ER and start the IVs and keep them going through the weekend.

I heard from Steph this morning and she said Pallie tolerated everything last night. She was going to drop her off at her vet's where she'll get the weekend IVs.

So, I don't know what happened...if it was the UTI that affected the kidneys or the Cipro. I know Steph is struggling with the fact that she gave her the Cipro, but I also know we all would have done the same. I don't think anyone saw this coming....

I'll keep you posted until Steph can get here....I just wish there was something more to be done. I am hoping that once they get this stuff flushed out, that Pallie will be back in her little bikini swimming in the lake....

Love and hugs! Beth

[labblab]

Oh goodness!!!!!!!!! Beth, thank you so much for keeping us informed. For sure, I am sending all my healing thoughts directly to sweetie Pallie (and tons of cyber-hugs to Steph!!!).

I know the doctors will be able to tell Steph more about all this. But I really hope that she won't beat herself up about the Cipro. I know that it is an antibiotic that is commonly given to human renal patients for the treatment of UTI's, so it is thought to be a help and not a hindrance in that patient population. Some dosage adjustments may be made in the event that the person already has severe kidney dysfunction. But it sounds as though Pallie started out "OK" on that score. So my "layperson's" guess is that it is the UTI that is associated with the worsening renal function, and not the Cipro.

Anyway, we all know that no pup could have any better caretaker than Steph!!!!!!

Huge healing hugs being sent to both girls,
Marianne

[gpgscott]

Thanks Beth,

Steph we are all thinking about you and Pallie and praying as hard as we can for her rapid recovery.

It is so easy to blame ourselves, please don't. We all know how very carefully you monitor her condition and the antibiotics were necessary at the time, there was no way to predict a bad reaction.

Hoping Pallie rests and is fortified by the fluids.

Scott

and QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!! from us also:)

[forscooter]

Hi all....this is in from Steph who is trying to get some much needed and deserved rest:


She did good on the fluids with no vomit and her kidneys are making urine. She is still feeling icky and the doc who's taking care of her today said that it does take a few days for the creatinine to go down. I asked her how well dogs respond and she says it varies depending on the dog, but for the most part (which I knew), this is not a long-term fix. It's enough to keep her happy and comfortable until a proper send off and usually that happens within a few months. I knew that too.

About what made her kidneys suddenly shut down --- docs don't know, except she's had chronic problems for years and years and this is kinda like a acute flareup. Unfortunately her kidneys weren't working well to begin with, so the flareup is just making matters worse and they probably can't fully recover. Once I talk to the Dr. on Monday and see where her levels are, I'll know more. But he didn't know what caused it and doesn't think it's from any medication -- but more than likely age, chronic problems, medical history, etc. He and I pretty much knew this was going to happen (I even told him when he thought she had cancer in Dec. that I thought she'd succumb to kidney failure first). We just didn't know it would be an acute case like this on top of the chronic.

So she and her magic duckie are getting IVs. I'll call a lot and they will let me visit her this afternoon, then it's back to the ER tonight. A lot of transfers because I won't leave her at my vet with no one there overnight.

So, I'm still QUACKING and hoping that Pallie can go home on Monday and have many more days of sunshine!!! Steph is an exceptional mom and I know if anyone can get Pallie through this, it is Steph for sure!!!!

Love and hugs! Beth

[ladysmom06]

Hi Steph,

Sending prayers and positive thoughts to you and Pallie. Hugs to the two of you.

Luv,
Lynne and Angel Lady 7-98/3-09

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Steph,
I am so sorry that you and Pallie are going thru this terrible time. Please know that we are hoping and praying for both you and Palie.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

You know I care about you and Pallie and I am holding you both in my arms.

Big hugs to you and gently belly rubs to Pallie, and Apollo, too,
Leslie and the girls

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Steph,,

I'm so sorry that Pallie is not doing well. I'm keeping positive thoughts for both of you. Hope Pallie continues to improve with her fluids and feels better over the weekend so she can come home.

Here's some more quacks from me and the Munch.....


QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!!!!!!

Love & Many Hugs,
Louise

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph,

Sending well wishes, positives thoughts and prayers your way.

And, of course ~ QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!

Lori

[zoesmom]

Steph -

Zoe and I are sending the positive vibes, too. Pallie is a tough little cookie (like her mommy) so we have every hope that things will begin to turn around soon. Sending her lots of quacky-quacks and hugs. Sue

[frijole]

Quacks from me and mine also. Hugs too. Kim

[gpgscott]

Quacks, prayers, and hugs.

Scott

[Carol G]

Lots of quacks, hugs and positive thoughts from us.

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[forscooter]

Aaahhhh...it's working....keep quacking!!!

I heard from Steph...Pallie is holding her own (of course she is, she's Pallie!)....she seemed to feel better with Steph there (of course she does, it's Steph!)....she was going to take Pallie back to the ER vet tonight (if she leaves her at the vet's no one is there overnight so that's why the back and forth) and she'll go back later and stay some with her tonight too....but so far, both mom and pup are hanging tough....just like we know they can....

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie (who I dispatched days ago to hold his honorary hound sister's paw!)

[gpgscott]

Quack!

So glad to hear about the wonder-corgihound. and I know Scoobie is right there with her.

So continued prayers and quacks.

Scott

[forscooter]

Update: BUN down from 180 to 123...creatinine still 7.3 but that can take a few days...she is back at the ER for the night...

Steph will be here as soon as she can....she is very thankful for the quacking...and I am sure she will speak for herself as soon as she can...I don't mean to speak for her...I just know what the power of this board can do!

I am just so happy there is improvement somewhere and we'll just keep it up until the other number gets to where it needs to be!!!

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!

Love and hugs....Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[lucygoo]

Wow...Quack, quack from me too. Not sure what that means, but if it works...:) I, too, know firsthand the power of this board, so I'm quacking that it works for Steph and Pallie:)

Gina and Lucy

[labblab]

Tons more QUACKS!!! coming from my house!!!!!!!!!

Marianne

[BestBuddy]

QUACK QUACK QUACK

Jenny

[AlisonandMia]

And three more Australian quack's from me:

QUACK! - QUACK! - QUACK!

Alison

[corgipallie]

I just want to thank everyone for being a quack, saying a quack, quacking, and praying for Pallie.
Beth has done a great job (thank you Beth!) with relaying info. Pallie has had what they are calling an acute flareup of chronic kidney disease and her creatinine jumped from 2.6 to 7.3 within 2 weeks (and maybe even faster). All the vomiting (including the blood), which originally thought from the Cipro was actually her kidneys shutting down. My vet thinks it is all coincidential that it all happened in and around at the same time the antibiotic was started and more than likely from repeated kidney infections, age, medical history, etc. (and in heinsight or however you spell that word, I think there were other warning signs a few days earlier that were very subtle and kidney failure was my last thought), and thinks the kidney problem, which makes her feel nauseated, lethargic, vomit, bleeding and ulcers, was multiplied when we included an antibiotic that irritates all of that (and actually hid it and fooled us until yesterday's blood work).

So she is getting the most aggressive treatment possible with 3 days straight of IV flushing and hopefully that creatinine will come down. The problem is it won't be down enough because of the already chronic kidney disease. So if her kidneys were only working at 50% (I don't know the real number, that's just an example) and now they are 20% (again, only an example), they won't get back up to 50%. So, unless a miracle happens, this is not a long-term fix. And most dogs only go a few months at best until their body shuts down, they stop eating, and quality of life is compromised significantly.

As for me, I am hanging in there. Pallie and I have had some good talks and she's one brave little girl. I've been running a lot back and forth between home, my vet (5 min from home) and the ER (25 minutes away) and trying to sleep a little in the middle. It is strange being home without her and Apollo and I are bonding in preparation for when this is permanent. I'm not trying to be negative about the outcome, but I will be able to deal with the grief better when it comes if I let myself take corgi-steps towards accepting the inevitable.

So thank you all so much for the prayers and the quacks. I agree with Beth that this board has amazing powers.

I am off to the ER shortly for the night on the lobby couch. They wake me up when I can visit with Pallie for a bit. Then it's back to my vet in the AM.

I love you all!!
Steph, Pallie, Apollo and the magic duckie

(p.s for those who want to know the quack story -- I took Apollo to Petsmart last weekend and we picked out a toy for Pallie in hopes it would make her feel better. It's a stuffed squeaky duck. And we called it the magic duckie. It's with her in her cage at the vet).

[forscooter]

I believe in miracles...

and magical duckies...

but preparing, I understand...and when the time comes, I have no doubt that you will do what you need to do....and we will all be here with you and Apollo....always...

But for now....QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!

Me

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Steph,

You're not being negative....the inevitable is not today....

More QUACK, QUACK, QUACK QUACKS for Pallie!!!!

Louise

[Squirt's Mom]

QUACK!! QUACK!! QUACK!! from me!

QUACK!! from Squirt!

QUACK! from Ruby!

QUACK! from Goldie!

QUACK! from Crystal!

Plus prayers and all the hugs you can stand!
Leslie and the girls

[judymaggie]

Steph: Tons of QUACKS and healing prayers from me to you and Pallie and I know my Maggie is looking down from the Rainbow Bridge, telling Pallie to hang in there!

[forscooter]

Good morning everyone....this is an update from Steph...


They rechecked her BUN for some reason along with some other stuff (not creatinine) and it went back up to 140. She also had some pretty high blood pressure overnight but she did eat some and peed and pooped. She seems a little more lethargic again this morning. Maybe she'll hopefully rest better now that she's at the regular vet. But at 1pm it's back off to the ER.
We're 1/2 way done and no significant changes and the blood pressure is scary.
I'm going to try to get a little sleep.

QUACK QUACK QUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!

Prayers for Pallie....Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[frijole]

Steph, thinking of you and Pallie and sending hugs, kisses and QUACKS your way.

Kim

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Steph,
Also thinking of you and Pallie and praying for a good outcome.

Also Quacking for Pallie.

Wishing Pallie a quack recovery.

[forscooter]

Pallie and Steph are back at the ER for the rest of the weekend. Pallie's BP went up to 300 last night, came down when they put Steph in a room with her and then the vet gave her a med and it is now 160....much much better!!!

Pallie isn't eating yet....but seemed perkier in the car while going back to the ER. Steph is holding on too. They said it can take a few more days....

So, we just have to keep it going! She also said they are being great to both of them at the ER....good thing bc otherwise we'd all be taking a road trip right about now! :cool:

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love and hugs! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph and Pallie,

You are both in my thoughts and prayers.
Hoping Pallie is feeling better soon.

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK !!!!!

Hugs to you both,
Lori

[frijole]

Warm thoughts and prayers from here also. No doubt Pallie needs his mommie and his ducky. Hugs, Kim

Quack!

[gpgscott]

Still here with the others quacking for Pallie.

Scott

[Carol G]

Quacks and positive thoughts from us.

Carol, McGill, Atty Cat & Winnie (always)

[corgipallie]

I know the quacks are working! They have to!!!! Quack!!!!!!!!!!

I am at home packing up to head to the ER where Pallie has been all afternoon and evening getting fluids. She seems a little less lethargic today and has eaten and drunken a little on her own. She is also sleeping a lot.
Her blood pressure before I left was at 190, so she got her benezapril and they will check it in a few hours. It's a little high, but not nearly as bad as last night or this afternoon. It was 160 around 3pm, 3 hours after the special BP medication.

She'll be getting her fluids through Monday morning then it's to my vet for the all important blood work to see if she's responding. More quacks!!!!!!!!! More quacks!!!

I'll update when I can. Beth is keeping me strong. And all you are too. I can feel the power of this board.

Steph, Pallie, Apollo and Bojangles the hedgehog

[acushdogsmom]

I'm a believer in whispering, and there's a whole lot of quack whispering going on up here in Canada for Pallie. :)

(((hugs)))

and many *whispering* quacks!

[SachiMom]

Steph,

Sending out healing magical QUACKs and prayers for Pallie.
Stay strong. With your strength Pallie will get stronger.

Sending tons of hugs to both of you.
Lotsa Luv ~ Mary Ann

Also, many thanks to Beth for keeping us updated.

[forscooter]

Just got an update from Steph....who I hope by now is sleeping! I am sure she will be by later herself to fill everyone in but I thought I would give you the update bc I know I was waiting for it too....

Pallie had a better night last night. Her BP did go back up but then responded to the meds. She ATE! A little bit of baby chicken hot dog thingies but she ATE! And she is barking and growling at the other dogs that come by her. So Pallie is get her feistiness on and I think these are all wonderful signs!!! Corgi steps to wellness....

So, as Cushy says, we probably should whisper our happiness....

But QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK and keep fighting, Pallie-girl!!!!

Love and hugs, Beth and the crew

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks, Beth! I have worried about Pallie and Steph all nite and am glad to see a bit of improvement...feisty is GOOD!

Steph, we are all still quacking our hearts out for Pallie. Let us know how you BOTH are doing when you can.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Thank you all for the love and support and quacks. I am at the ER just reading in the lobby area because it is so hard going home. Apollo will be ok for a few hours. She is still doing ok and fighting. Her blood pressure is a nice 150 and she is sleeping a lot. We go to my vet first thing in the morning and it's D-Day to find out if her kidneys are improving or not and how much time she may have left. Either way, of course kidney failure is always terminal and I accept what is going on. Still hurts like hell. So fight now and be sad later. Easier said than done but I am staying strong for Pallie. She doesn't have time for me not to be and I know we feed off each other's energy. Kinda hard to tell how she is really feeling because she has been in a hospital cage for 3 days and she has never acted "normal" while at a vet that long. So tomorrow is D-day and I am praying for the best miracle that is possible. Thank you all again. Let's keep quacking!
love steph, Pallie Apollo and Bojangles the hedgie

ps sorry if there are typos. I am typing on my phone.

[gpgscott]

Still quacking here in SC and hoping for improvement in the numbers.

QUACK!

Scott

[Buffaloe]

Steph,

Lots of prayers and QUACKS for Pallie coming from Phoenix.

Ken

[forscooter]

Believe in miracles, Steph...

QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph,

Sending positive thoughts, prayers and more magical QUACKS your way.

Hugs to you both,
Lori

[frijole]

Ah Steph, what an awesome mom you are. Keep the faith and gather the strength we send from around the world. Hugs, prayers, warmest thoughts and of course.... more QUACKS! Kim

[Truffa's Mom]

Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack+Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack

+
magic duckie
+
Tons of prayers

+

Quack magic energy from K9Cushings

+

Mommy's (Steph) love

+

Apollo & Bojangles TLC

+

Choco-healing kisses express from Texas


We will keep sending your way all the good energy. We love you!!!

[Roxee's Dad]

Still Quacking in TN.

Quack, Quack, Quack........

Thoughts and prayers are with you.

[SachiMom]

Late nite magic QUACKS from the west coast.
Healing thoughts & prayers and quacks for Pallie
Luv & Hugs for Steph.
~ Mary Ann

[4Mikeydog]

We are Quacking like mad in New Jersey!!!!

with love and prayers,
Dorothy and Mikey

[Squirt's Mom]

Thoughts, prayers, hugs, love and quacks are with you this morning, Steph.

[lulusmom]

Steph,

Positive thoughts, powerful prayers and lots of healing quacks, barks and meows being sent your way from more of your friends from Southern California. Canine friends Lulu, Jasper, Jojo, Buster and Feline friends, Moki, Mimi, Squeaky and Maggie have 32 paws crossed and 8 tails wagging for Pallie this morning.

((((Healing Hugs))))
Glynda, Gil and furkids

[forscooter]

Since I have already taken over Steph's thread and I'm not sure when she'll get here, I'll go ahead with today's quick update....

Pallie's creatinine came down to 3.9 from 7.3 and the BUN is at 82 from 180. They are planning on doing the fluids during the day at the vet but then letting Pallie go home at night. The numbers still aren't where they need to be.....but as we keep saying, corgi-steps to getting there. And I believe any news is GOOD news and am so glad Pallie can be snuggling with Steph and Apollo tonight....every single moment is a gift...

I told Steph it ain't over until the fat doggie sings, and Bailey ain't singin' anytime soon!

Anyway, I thought I'd barge in and post this bc I know how anxious I was to hear!


QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!

Love and hugs! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[gpgscott]

Thanks Beth,

Hoping Pallie is going home tonight.

Still quacking!

Scott

[Harley PoMMom]

Beth,

Thanks for all the updates.

Glad to hear Pallie is coming home tonight and making corgi-steps in improving.

We're still QUACKING here in PA.

Hugs to all,
Lori

[gpgscott]

More quacks for Pallie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGkUGUTqzSc

Scott

[corgipallie]

Hahahaha Scott! I needed that!

I had a busy day at work so I wasn't able to get on til now. Pallie is at the vet getting her fluids and I'm leaving soon to pick her up and take her home. She hasn't really eaten anything at any of the vets so I am hoping coming home will help her eat. I got some nice meats ready for her. Then she goes back to the vet tomorrow for more fluids in hopes if we can get that creatinine lower.

Again, she is still going to succumb to this. Her kidneys are just too damaged from chronic disease to make a full comeback. So we just have to enjoy the time left. If she doesn't start eating, it may come sooner than I hope. She'll get another blood test on Thursday to see if these daytime fluids are helping making her feel better.

My vet and I had a good talk today while I was there and he even got a little choked up. He knows we have both done all we can possible give to her. He said he just had to put one of his own down a few weeks ago, a 14 year old whippet. He considers Pallie like one of his own too.

So please don't stop quacking!!!!!!! Even though she will be sick, we need the quacks to make her eat and to give her some good feeling days before the end.

Thank you all so much.
Steph, Palz, Apollo and Hedgie-Bo


(and thank you all for getting this forum back up. If it were still down and I had no place to turn, I don't know how I would get through some of this.)

[Wylie's Mom]

I'm glad Pallie gets to go home tonight!

Here's some belated quacks: QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK

And future quacks:QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK

-Susy

[forscooter]

WELCOME HOME, PALLIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D

Now, please eat, let your mama sleep, and cuddle cuddle cuddle all night long!!!! And don't forget kisses for Apollo too! He's been waiting!

Steph, as we all know but seldom ever think about are the moments....all we have, any of us, even ourselves, is right here, right now.....so ENJOY right here, right now.....and love that little girl up!!! And get some sleep!!!!!!!!!!!! That's Dr. Bethy's order for both you girls!

Love ya!!!! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

OMG I ALMOST FORGOT!!!

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!

[corgipallie]

QUUUUUAAAAAACKKKKKKK!

Pallie's vet is quacking too! I told him about this board yesterday when I picked her up and that everyone is quacking for her.

Last night we fell asleep on the floor, both being exhausted. (by the way-hardwood floors really are HARD!) We woke up and she wasn't interested in too much food, so I tried again at almost 11pm and she ate a pretty good amount of cooked ground angus beef. It was more than she's eaten recently and after I hand-fed her some, she even went for more from the plate. She did have some diarrhea this morning and last night, but no blood and not painful.

She slept all night long, but at 3am when my roommate got home, he was in the hall on his cell phone and she got up and barked. Yay Pallie! She fell back asleep shortly. I slept on the floor with her but she got tired of me snugglin' up to her so she went off on her own, but she knew I was close by.

She's at the vet all day today getting fluids and my dad comes into town today to help out with the next few days. Work is going to be a nightmare until tomorrow afternoon and I am going to be pulling an all-nighter at the office. I wish I could bring Pallie there but I can't. And I wish I could come home to spend time with her, but I can't. Thank goodness my dad is coming to help out though. We'll pick Pallie up around 4pm and then I have to go back to work by 6pm.

Keep quacking!!!!!!!!!
And if you want to watch the CMT Music Awards tonight at 8pm eastern... know Pallie and my dad will be watching from home while I'm slaving away wishing I was with them too.

QUACK!!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Atta girl Pallie!!

We're here in PA QUACKING our heads off for you, dear sweet Pallie.

And here are some extra: QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!

Special hugs and prayers to Steph and Pallie,
Lori and Harley

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Steph,
We're still Quacking in TN....

Quack... Quack... Quack.... Quack......

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

....and here's some more quacking for Pallie from California

QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!!!!

Hugs & Many Prayers,

Louise, Munchie & the 6 Furballs

[judymaggie]

I was so glad to read that Pallie was at home -- please give her a gentle hug!
Here's some more ...

QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!

to keep her spirits up!

Judy (always "Maggie's Mom")
Riverview, FL

[labblab]

In honor of Pallie and your dad, we'll be QUACKING away in tune tonight with thoughts of banjos and fiddles and mandolins and happy Pallies in our heads!!!! :p :p :p :p :p

I am so very glad that Pallie is home...:o :)
Big quackin' (((hugs))) from Marianne, Peg and Luna

[forscooter]

I'm very glad to hear your dad will be coming to spend a few days with you all....and I am also very glad Pallie ate, got feisty, and slept....and that you got to have her back home cuddled with you (if only a little while on the cuddling, lol). I am sure you are exhausted....what a rough week you've had!

I hope after tonight's busy schedule, you get to get some more rest in there....and that Thursday's news brings nothing but the best possible numbers!!

We're all still quacking here too! QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!

Love and hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[lulusmom]

Alrighty, Pallie.....Donald is not happy that you are still feeling under the weather. He's as mad as hell and he's not going to take it anymore until you get better.


134 NOW I MEAN IT!! QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!!!

[corgipallie]

I can't believe the power of the quack!!!
Pallie was at the vet all day today on fluids. My dad and I went to pick her up and we talked to the vet for a bit. She's going to stay home with grandpa tomorrow and chill. My vet says we've flushed pretty much all we can do and that she needs a day or so to get back to home life and see how she adjusts. I fed her some ground beef and she was so into it! She loved it! I taught my dad how to give her the meds she needs, but he tried them in more ground beef and she took it!!! I was afraid she was eating so slowly that she would spit the pill out. Grandpa has magical quacking powers!!!
We will retest on Thursday and see where that creatinine. The quacks are working!! I can feel it!!!!!!!

QUACKQUACKQUACKQUACK!!!!!

[SachiMom]

Pallie has the magical duckie, a grandpa with magical powers, a million magical healing thoughts, prayers and quacks, and an angel for a mommy. Only the best for Pallie.
Keeping our fingers crossed that Thursday proves the QUACK has magical powers.

Magical sunshine QUACKs from southern california.
Hugs & Prayers for Pallie, Steph and Grandpa.
~Mary Ann

[zoesmom]

Magical sunshine QUACKs from southern california.
~Mary Ann


Hey Steph - we are a known for our quack-i-ness out here in CA so quakety-quack, quack-quack goin' out to Pallie, and you and Grandpa, too! Glad she's eating a little bit. That has to be a good sign. Sue/Zo

[forscooter]

Steph....I am so glad Pallie is finally eating with some interest. I do think this is a very good sign that she is feeling much better! Hoping that things continue down the same path today and you get some really terrific news tomorrow! You both deserve it so very much!
QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!
Hugs, Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

I am so glad that Pallie got to come home! QUACK!! A magic grandpa to look after him! QUACK!! A loving, devoted mom! QUACK!! And 100's of folks hoping for the best quacking results possible tomorrow!

My thoughts and prayers remain with you, Steph.
Hugs to all at your house,
Leslie and the girls

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph,

So glad Pallie is eating for her devoted, loving Mom, and wondeful Grandpa with the magical quacking powers.

Sending positive thoughts and prayers that tomorrow will bring very happy results on Pallie's test.

Still Quacking here in PA.

QUACK ! QUACK ! QUACK ! QUACK !

Hugs to you all,
Lori

[Dollydog]

Hi Steph,
I'm trying to get caught up on your thread .... and still haven't finished. Glad to hear that Pallie is home and has 24/7 companionship. Will keep catching up and find out where all the quacking started!! :D
Lots of quack, quacking from our house too,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

[forscooter]

Good luck today, Pallie!!!! Hoping and quacking for some really great numbers!!!!

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK
QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK
QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK


Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

My thoughts, prayers, and 1000's of QUACKS are with you and Pallie today.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[forscooter]

Hi...

I just heard from Steph a little bit ago, and she will pop in later, but she said to give you the news from Pallie's labs today...

Creatinine went back up to 4.3 and BUN is 110. But, it didn't go up as high as it was before so Pallie is going to get fluids every other day and then go for a re-test in 1-2 weeks. Steph is going to be giving these to her at home now.

Pallie is eating chicken and beef so that's good too!!:D The vet thinks she is still a little punky feeling from her tummy and also a bit weak from being in the hospital for the 5 days.....hopefully she will regain her strength....and knowing Pallie, she will! She's one tough cookie!!!

So keep QUACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's working!

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!

Love and hugs....Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph,

Tons of hugs, positive thoughts, prayers, and well wishes are sent your way for sweet Pallie.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to you too.
Lori

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

I read somewhere a long time ago that green was a healing color so here are some big green healing quacks for Pallie.......

Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack
Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack
Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack

Love & Hugs,
Louise & Munchie

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks Beth! TN is quacking up all over the place for Pallie!

Hang in there, Steph...we are with you and Pallie all the way!

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[Roxee's Dad]

Another in TN is Quacking.......

Quack......Quack.....Quack......Quack.....Quack... ...Quack.....

[corgipallie]

Thank you all again for the quacks!!! I know it's working!

As Beth mentioned because I was running around like a mad woman yesterday and completely exhausted at 7pm I didn't have a chance to hop on here.
Pallie's creatinine from Monday to yesterday went up from 3.9 to 4.3 and her BUN went up from 80 to 110.

In comparison, a week ago her creatinine was 7.3 and BUN was 180. So the fluids definitely helped, but I'm bummed the numbers went back up again. Very bummed. My vet too. He said though that dogs can live pretty comfortably with creatinine in the 4s for a while as long as we can maintain it. That is the key. So he gave her some subcutaneous fluids and then an Rx for me to do it from home. I had to make a few phone calls to find a pharmacy who had it all (as the doggie pharmacy was even more expensive). I did find one nearby and I got the fluid, the lines and the needles for $50 (12 of them). So I'll start doing this from home and he wants to retest in a week.

She's still eating beef and chicken but won't touch much else. I called the grocery store yesterday and ordered a special rotisserie chicken for her--- one that has absolutely nothing on it. No spices, no butter glaze, nothing being dripped on it -- just a plain old cooked bird. So I will pick that up this afternoon.

You all mean the world to me!

xoxoxoxoxoQUACKQUACKQUACKxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox

[Squirt's Mom]

QUAAACK QUACK QUACK! QUAAACK QUACK QUACK!

Steph, I can't imagine how you are coping with this. :( Your strength and resolve is admirable; I don't know if I could face this as well as you are. You know we are here for you any time, for any reason.

Big hugs to you my friend and belly rubs to sweet Pallie,
Leslie and the girls

[Dollydog]

Thanks for the update....lots of quacks coming from our house to yours through our rain :D Take care,
Jo-Ann & Lady :)

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Munchie is singing this for his favorite yellow polka dot bikini gal....

With a Quack-Quack here and a Quack-Quack there, here a Quack, there a Quack....everywhere a Quack-Quack...arooooooo!

Slurps,
Munchie & Louise (but I'll pass on the slurps :D )

[gpgscott]

With a Quack-Quack here and a Quack-Quack there, here a Quack, there a Quack....everywhere a Quack-Quack...arooooooo!

Slurps,
Munchie & Louise (but I'll pass on the slurps :D )

Very approriate Louise as you know Pallie is a Corgie-hound:D

[forscooter]

Yes, she is!!!:D:D:D

QUACKAROOOOO!!!! QUACKAROOOOO!!! QUACKAROOOOO!!!!!

Love, The other hounds

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph and Pallie,

We're still Quacking here in PA.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to all,
Lori and Harley

[corgipallie]

I gave Pallie her fluids this morning and it went seamlessly and now she looks like a fully engorged tick with a big body and tiny little head. Hhahahahahaha. She is loving my cranberry/walnut bread too.

QUACKQUACKQUACK!!!!

[judymaggie]

Steph -- congrats on mastering the fluids at home! When my Maggie was getting them, she always looked so odd as the fluids would slide down her side and end up in her belly. :) Pallie sounds like she has excellent taste -- hope she is also enjoying her rotisserie chicken!

More QUACKS sent your way!

Judy (always "Maggie's Mom")
Riverview, FL

[acushdogsmom]

I'm sure it's much less stressful for Pallie to have the fluids being administered by you at home than having to have it done at the vet's.

Still quietly whispering the quacks (and quackaroos too) up here in Canada. :)

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Enjoy....QUACK-QUACK-QUACK....your cranberry/walnut bread....QUACK-QUACK-QUACK....Pallie....QUACK-QUACK-QUACK....(picture an icon of me drooling)....QUACK-QUACK-QUACK!!!

Louise

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Steph,

Looking for a Sunday report. How is Pallie today??........QUACK-QUACK-QUACK!!!

Louise

[corgipallie]

Sunday report:
My dad went home this morning. :-( So I'm on my own now. Pallie is still enjoying ground beef, rotisserie chicken and toast. She doesn't get fluids again til tomorrow. I'm trying to get her to drink but she's not too interested. Any suggestions? She drinks a little after she eats but it's not nearly enough. I've tried juice and chicken broth in her water and she's not interested and she's not much into ice either. Frozen chicken broth? Any ideas?

I just got back from the store and I'm going to boil some chicken later and see if she'll drink the makeshift broth from that. Otherwise she's sleeping a lot but seems comfortable. It is a very hot day here. I would like to take her to the park later just to sit in the grass and lift her spirits a little. I hope it cools down a little by sunset. Tennessee summers are brutal.

Steph

[gpgscott]

Hi Steph,

I hear ya on the brutal summers, our has just arrived, heat index yesterday of 105, but a little better today.

I have been giving Moria Ensure each morning, the vanilla flavor, it is sweet, has no lactose and she slurps it right up. Don't know if it would be a burden on kidneys but you might want to ask your Dr. Walmart has a store brand with the same analysis for half the cost of the branded product.

Scott

Oh, and did I say Quackeroooo! :D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

Sorry the magic daddy is gone home. :( But you will do fine as always.

With the sub-q fluids, Pallie is probably not feeling much thirst but I would want to see her drinking, too. One way to get more water in her would be to add some to her feed. The home-made broth will be good for her, too, so good idea!

It is brutal out there isn't it?! And tomorrow is supposed to be worse! :eek: I cannot take the heat at all so I am behind closed doors under heavy A/C and may remain here til Nov. :p Squirt doesn't like it either so a trip to the park would be torture for both of us. I hope Pallie feels like getting out and that she enjoys the day.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

I have to give Munch a specific amount of water every day (stone prevention) and adding it directly to his home cooked food is how he gets it.

Ground beef "soup" would be worth a try...QUACK, QUACK!!

Louise

[forscooter]

Bailey isn't too much into drinking anymore either, not as much as I think he should be, so I always put water in with his food....and sometimes broth, or any liquid he will drink....

and sniff sniff sniff....do I smell cranberry/walnut bread???? Mmmmmmm......

How about tuna water? Will she drink that? Is there a veggie she liked? Cook that is come water and use that as flavor?

And please I beg of you all, send the sun up here!!! I don't even remember what it looks like it has been raining soooooooo incredibly long!!!! I could probably make a fortune in mushrooms! :(

Love and hugs! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

QUACKAROOO!!! QUACKAROOOO!!! QUACKAROOOOOOOOOO!!!

[Barney's Mom]

Just finding out that Pallie hasn't been feeling well. Prayers said that she puts this behind her quickly.

Cheryl

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

And please I beg of you all, send the sun up here!!! I don't even remember what it looks like it has been raining soooooooo incredibly long!!!! I could probably make a fortune in mushrooms! :(


Note....Hijack in progress (sorry, Steph...it's BB's fault! ;))

I'll send you some sun from So. CA...83 degrees outside today and a mild breeze is blowing. No chance of mushrooms here....but there's plenty of dried up plants and I'm on a water budget. Must abide by the new rules or the "water police" will come and get me. I'll send them to you also. :D

Louise

Here's some more QUACK, QUACK, QUACK-A-ROONIES for Pallie!

[corgipallie]

I love Dr. Oliver.


I emailed him this morning and got a very quick reply back. I was wondering about Pallie's atypical cushings treatment in the face of her kidney issues right now, telling him that she was due for her new implant but we held off until she was stabilized. Here's what he wrote in case it helps anyone else.


Hi stephanie,
You might want to go with an oral dose of melatonin until things get well stabilized. Then if you needed to stop treatment, you could easily do this. The oral dose for a Corgi would be 3 mg of melatonin in the a.m., and 3 mg of melatonin again in the p.m. The implants only last for 4 months, so there would be none, or only minimal melatonin being released. It would be safe to do the oral melatonin now. Later, when things have stabilized, an implant could be considered once again.
You might consider going with lignan from www.flaxhulls.com, and give 1/2 teaspoonful of this per day on the food.
You would want to discuss this with your veterinarian as well, since he is very familiar with all that's going on.
Hope this is helpful. Regards, Jack Oliver.


Dear Dr. Oliver,
My 12 year old corgi is atypical cushings and has been using the melatonin implant and lignan capsules for the last 2 years. Her 3rd implant within this time is due for replacement. However, last week Pallie went in to acute-on-chronic renal failure. After 4 days in the ICU, her creatinine dropped from 7.3 to 3.9 and then back up to 4.3 as of last Thursday (and BUN 110). She is getting subcutaneous fluids now and seems to be stable. Her next BUN/Creatinine test is later this week. Since this all happened, she's been on other medications and my vet had me stop the lignans temporarily until we stabilized her (she had been vomiting a lot too).

Now that she is relatively stabilized (eating, drinking, no vomiting), do you think we should continue the lignans and put in the next implant? Her atypical cushings treatment has taken a back seat in the last 2 weeks due to the renal failure. But on the other hand, I don't want her to suffer with the cushings or make matters worse while not treating it while we have her kidneys stabilized, although I know that the renal treatment is only temporary until they can't be saved any longer.

Any advice on whether to continue her cushings treatment and whether to put in the next implant would be much appreciated.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Steph,

Thank you so much for sharing your letter, and I think it was wonderful that you received a response so fast.

How is sweet Pallie doing? Is she still eating and has she started to drink any liquids? And how are you doing? I know, too many questions, but I been worried about you both. :)

Take care of yourself and give Pallie a gentle hug from Harley and me.

Lori QUACKING from PA.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

I was just reading in the booklet that comes with the flax hulls and there is a section talking about the lignans being beneficial for kidney disease and to improve functioning. Thought you might want to know that and find it interesting. I'll be happy to type up what it says for you if you want to know now.

Good luck with the sub-q tonite! QUACK!! QUACK!!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Leslie, do you use these lignans with Squirt? Forgive me for not being up to speed on your thread.

Yes, if you wouldn't mind posting that info, I'd love to read it. I haven't ordered the flax hulls yet. If Dr. Oliver endorses them, I'll all for trying. I have to go to the store and get more melatonin. I have a bottle from before Pallie went implant, and the date is still valid but I think I still will get a fresh bottle.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

No need for forgiveness. Heavens to Betsy! You have enough going on without worrying about keeping up with my little thread. So don't you fret one bit about things like that.

Here's the info from the booklet that comes with the hulls. Hope this helps!

From: Flaxseed Lignan, the Power of SDG in Promoting Health
By: Charles A. Weisman and Dr. Dan Junker

Pg. 17

…There is growing evidence that dietary phytoestrogens, such as flax lignans, have a beneficial role in chronic renal (kidney) disease. Recent findings from dietary intervention studies performed in animals and humans suggest that consumption of flaxseed rich in lignans retards the development and progression of chronic renal disease. (Velasquez, M.T., American Journal on Kidney Disease, May, 2001, 37(5):1056-68)

In a study involving the dietary supplementation of flax lignan, the researchers measured the existence of proteinuria, or protein in the urine, which is a sign of severe renal disease. Mice with lupus were fed a diet supplemented with 15% flaxseed for 14 weeks. The flaxseed diet significantly delayed the onset of proteinuria. Further, the incidence of proteinuria was lower in the flaxseed diet group compared to the control diet group. It was also noted that lignans produce specific reversible and competitive inhibition of PAF. This PAF factor has been implicated with the onset of renal injury. Mortality was lower in the flaxseed-fed mice. (Clark, W.F., & Parbtani, A., “Flaxseed in experimental and clinical lupus nephritis,” University of Western Ontario, 2000, pp. 17-22. Hall, A.V., et al., Am. J. Kidney Dis., 1993, 22(2):326-32)

In a study at the University of Manitoba, it was discovered that lignans in flaxseed improve kidney function in certain types of kidney diseases. When rats with kidney dysfunctions were given flaxseed in their diet it preserved renal function and reduced histological injury. (Ogburn, M.R., et al., “The effect of dietary flaxseed supplementation on organic anion and osmolyte content and excretion in rat polycystic kidney disease,” Biochemical Cellular Biology, 1998, 76(2-3):553-9)

Flaxseed has been investigated in both immune and non-immune models of renal injury. It was concluded that in both models, flaxseed wan beneficial in slowing the decline in renal function. Studies comparing defatted flaxseed meal with full-fat meal indicates (sic) that components other than the oil, such as fiber or lignans, have desirable properties in some aspects of renal disease. (Parbtani, A. & W.F. Clark, “Flaxseed and its components in renal disease,” Flaxseed in Human Nutrition, 1995, AOCS Press, 244-260)

Hugs and QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!!!
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

wow this is great info! thanks Leslie!
I wonder if the lignans Pallie has been getting for the last 2 years has helped her kidneys from then up to now.

[Wylie's Mom]

Thank you, Leslie from me too - that is good to know. I've been reading a little about Kidney issues, hoping I can spot things early incase Wylie has problems later.

Steph, about the lignans... based on the most recent UTK treatment sheet (revised 05-22-2009); it seems, at least to me, that Dr. O is favoring the flaxhulls even over the lignan capsules:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/Steroid%20Profiles%20for%20Diagnosis%20of%20Atypic al%20Cushing's.pdf

I'm just thinking that there may be something gained by having the lignans along with other flaxseed parts that might make it superior to having the lignans alone:rolleyes:.

Also, can you answer Lori's questions?

How is sweet Pallie doing? Is she still eating and has she started to drink any liquids? And how are you doing?

I started reading the DogAware article (that I think someone may have already posted the link for you before):
http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

Anyway, she mentions that raw green tripe is great for dogs with kidney failure and dogs with inappetance. I had given Wylie some raw green tripe, before I switched him to a mostly Primal diet. I do believe that he may like the tripe more than cooked chicken. But it was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO nasty smelling (& looking) that I was so glad when he finished the order that I had bought. I truly believe that it is very good for dogs; so much that I am seriously considering placing another order and dealing with that foul smell again - his coat was softer within days of just supplementing his diet with it. I thought it was a "raw diet" thing, but I'm finding that Primal isn't doing as good of a job in this department as the Tripe did. So, if Pallie is still not eating much and if you can deal with really, really, really foul smells, you might want to try the tripe.

-Susy
QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK

[Truffa's Mom]

Although a little bit absent from posting here, we are still QUACKING, AND QUITE LOUD FROM MY BABIES...QUACK!!!!!!
Here's a nice article about diet on pups with kidney problems
CHRONIC RENAL FAILURE DIET – Dogs (http://www.windyhollowvet.com/Document/info/ChronicRenalFailureDiet.pdf), is based on that web site Dogaware (which has become one of my favorites). They say that is very important that she eats something. Please Pallie :one for your mommy, one for your grandpa, one for the K9cushpups, one for Apollo, one for B (what's the name of the hedgehog?)...

As well as Suzy I read somewhere about that Tripe, I suspected about the peculiar smell, now I'll now for sure thanks to Suzy's experience.... but anything for our babies UH?:o.
QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK
Please get better sweet Pallie, big choco kisses to you and your mommy

[corgipallie]

Thank you all for the info on the lignans and kidney diets.
What I've noticed is that a lot of the information is geared toward the early stages or moderate chronic kidney disease. Unfortunately, Pallie is more in an end-stage kidney failure. She has had chronic kidney disease for about 2 years (based on my obsession with getting blood work done) and it seems we've done a lot of things right given that most dogs only live 1-2 years after being diagnosed with kidney disease. Because she had an acute-on-chronic kidney "attack" if you will, I guess she's still chronic, but at this stage, just getting her to eat something is what's more important than the long-term treatment. We're past that I believe.

Pallie is loving her rotisserie chicken (she won't eat it if I try to cook it. She is a smart girl). She eats about one full chicken every 3 days or so. She's also doing great with the ground beef and I generally give her both beef and chicken in her meal. She is also loving toast. She won't eat dry bread, but loves toast. Go figure. The best part about toast is that it is dry and makes her want to drink water after. :-)
She's not drinking a whole lot of water, but she seems to be holding up ok, plus she gets her fluids every other day-- and that's tonight! We go to the vet in the morning for a recheck of those BUN and Creatinine levels.

QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

I'm glad Pallie is liking her chicken - store cooked of course! :p;) So I guess you are saying we don't really want to come to your house for a home-cooked dinner, huh? :eek::D

I agree that getting her to eat is paramount right now along with keeping her hydrated. I realize there is no cure and probably little if any recovery of the organs possible now. But I was thinking the hulls could be used in the same vein as the fluids - a kinda of palliative care approach; and if they can help return even a little of the function, that would have to help her feel better as well. Plus, if the hulls can slow the progression even at this stage, that would give ya'll a little more time together.

Just to see if the hulls noticeably smelly or had a funny taste, I gave some to Goldie this morning as she's my finicky eater. She didn't even notice they were there and ate them up with her food.

Truthfully, I just want to do something to help so badly yet feel helpless to do so and when I read that my first thought was of ya'll. :o

I hope her numbers have come down this time and that things will be a bit better for you both.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls

QUACK QUACK

[Roxee's Dad]

More from TN

Quack....Quack.....Quack....Quack.......

Hope Pallie continues to improve and feel better.

Our good thoughts are and will be with you and Pallie.

[forscooter]

QUACK-QUACK-QUACKAROOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!


WE LOVE YOU!!!! Chanting "good numbers, good numbers, good numbers, good numbers....."

Beth, Bailey and always Scoobers

[Harley PoMMom]

Still QUACKING here in PA.

Hoping them numbers come down.

You're in my thoughts and prayer.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to all.
Lori

[corgipallie]

QUACK!!!!!!

The quacks are working!!
Pallie's Creatinine dropped to 3.6 this morning after being 4.3 one week ago which was up from 3.9 10 days ago. Her BUN though is up above 130 again, but my vet thinks it's due to her not drinking enough. The Creatinine dropping was a pleasant surprise!!

So here's the plan:

She gets subcu fluids once a day now instead of every other day
She still just needs to eat so whatever works is what she gets (she loves her rotisserie!)
Starting melatonin and lignans again today, and I ordered the flax hulls after talking to my vet. He hadn't heard of them but if Dr. Oliver supports them, then he does too
Retest in 2 weeks unless something changes between now and then
Being aware she can relapse at any time and if her creatinine goes up sky high again, they won't recover as well as they did (or are seeming to) this time.


I'M STILL QUACKING!!

[acushdogsmom]

So here's the plan:

She gets subcu fluids once a day now instead of every day??? So is she getting subq fluids every day or not?

Anyhow, sending love and hugs and still whispering quacks up here too. :D

[Squirt's Mom]

QUACK!!!
Hey Steph!

Good news on the creatinine! Now to get that BUN down! I am hoping the daily fluids will do the trick!

I'm glad you talked to your vet about the hulls and that he agrees to try them. Amazing how many people have come to know about and trust Dr O!

Big hugs to you and belly rubs to Pallie (Apollo and BoJangles, too :D)
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

??? So is she getting subq fluids every day or not?


oops! I meant every other day in my post. See what stress does to typing fingers. hee hee. I'll edit it. ;-)

[corgipallie]

I'm glad you talked to your vet about the hulls and that he agrees to try them. Amazing how many people have come to know about and trust Dr O!

Yeah, he wanted to see the creatinine first before going further.

[Wylie's Mom]

Hi Steph,

Have you tried adding chicken broth to Pallie's water? When I (twice)boil chicken breasts for Wylie, I save some of the broth (from the second boiling-less fat & sodium). If I want Wylie to drink more, I just give him 1/4 part of this pretty dilute broth to 3/4 part water and he laps up every bit of it. Since Pallie finds your cooked chicken unacceptable:p, maybe you can try using some canned chicken broth - the Whole Foods near me has a brand (I think it was Hahn? brand) that was very low sodium. The "low sodium" brands I found at regular grocery stores had up to 10 times the sodium that this brand has.

-Susy

[corgipallie]

Thanks Suzy for the suggestion. So far she is refusing all broths. I have tried several types from Whole Foods plus my home made and she's not going for it still. Maybe as her creatinine goes down (hopefully more) her appetite will come back some more too. I don't blame her for refusing my cooking though! I often refuse my own. :D

[Roxee's Dad]

Still Quacking here in TN.

Quack....Quack.....Quack.....

It's funny, now everytime I see and Aflac commercial, I think of Pallie.:) Hmm, I wonder if she would like duck for dinner?:eek:

[Harley PoMMom]

Steph,

Such great news that her Creatinine went down. I am so happy for you and sweet Pallie.

As far as trying to get her to drink more liquids, have you tried Pedialyte? Just throwing it out there, I just wish I could have more useful information for you.:(

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to you and Pallie.
Lori

[lulusmom]

Hi Steph.

Most dogs in end stage renal failure are on an oral phosphate binder as well as nausea meds. Phosphates are a dog's worst enemy when the kidney filtration system breaks down. When phosphates can't be filtered through the kidney and eliminated, phosphorus accumulates in the blood which basically makes a dog drag butt, feel nauseous and turns off the appetite. A phosphate binder will bind the phosphates in the intestinal tract which prevents them from being absorbed into the blood stream. Has your vet prescribed this drug for Pallie? If not, you might want to ask about it.

Protein is really high in phosphorus and with Pallie's intake being primarily proteins, I would think it is very important that she be on a phosphate binder. That's just my two cents, plus a few quack, quack, quacks for good measure. :D

Glynda

[forscooter]

Hey there...

Interesting about the phosphate binder!!! Something worth asking about, I think anyway! Glynda, you are like a walking medical book!:D

Steph, will flavoring the water with cranberry juice help? I'm trying to think of things too....I know I've been batting a thousand! :o:cool:

But big huge QUACK-QUACK-QUACK-QUACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go, Pallie-houndgirl, Go!!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[corgipallie]

phosphate binder
My vet didn't even mention this. I will be sure to ask him about it.


As far as trying to get her to drink more liquids, have you tried Pedialyte?
No pedialyte. Too much sodium. :-(



Steph, will flavoring the water with cranberry juice help?
Yep tried that too.

Even with trying to get her to drink, my vet says she needs one oz per pound of body weight, so that's 40oz a day. There's no way she'll drink that much water no matter how good the liquid is. That's like me drinking 1_5 oz of water. I can hardly drink 16 oz let alone more than 100! Way more than 100!

Keep the suggestions coming if you have them! I'm fighting for my girl still! Hopefully something will work well!:)

[AlisonandMia]

Could some of her not wanting to drink be because of the SQ fluids? If she is getting plenty of fluid that way she probably doesn't feel any need to drink. I've been on a drip a couple of times in my life and never felt the slightest twinge of thirst the whole time was hooked up and probably didn't drink at all for a day actually as I was getting all my fluid requirements in through a vein. I'm wondering if you can do the SQ fluids whether stressing out too much about how much she actually drinks is necessary.

Still QUACK'in!

Alison

[corgipallie]

Could some of her not wanting to drink be because of the SQ fluids? If she is getting plenty of fluid that way she probably doesn't feel any need to drink.

Yeah, Alison, my vet and I discussed that catch 22 today. But for her BUN to go down, she needs more fluids, which is why he wants to try the subcu fluids every day for 2 weeks instead of every other day and see how her BUN reacts. If she were drinking more, her BUN wouldn't have gone up from the last test a week ago, but again, the fluids every other day weren't enough apparently. She doesn't seem stressed out by the fluids at all. She fell asleep yesterday and was snoring until I pulled the needle out and wiped off her fur. Silly girl.

[gpgscott]

Just to see if the hulls noticeably smelly or had a funny taste, I gave some to Goldie this morning as she's my finicky eater. She didn't even notice they were there and ate them up with her food.

Leslie and the girls

QUACK QUACK



I just wanted to make a quick comment on this. I have been advised by a close friend who has a son being treated by a licensed nutrionist that the flax products do oxidize and become rancid and in-effective rapidly. I have baked with ground flax for years which is what lignans are and I store mine in the freezer. I have never noticed an objectionable odor in the ground flax and almost always tast it before adding it to whatever. I have however had flaxseed oil with a strong odor and have discarded it. The nutirionist I am mentioning is very particular about using only flaxseed oil which is stored, distributed and marketed under refrideration. The main brand she recommends is Barleans.

Scott

[gpgscott]

Concerning the phosphorus binder, I had an IMS with an elder cat a few years ago who imparted the same information to me. In this case we used Pepcid AC. Don't know if works the same way in dogs.

Scott

Quack

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Steph,
A long time ago I had a pup and her name was Chainsaw. She went on to live to be almost 19 years old. In the end while doing the SQ fluids, I would fill a syringe (no needle)with water and put in the side of her mouth to get her to drink. She only weighed 5 to 6 pounds so it wasn't difficult. If you try this, just be carefull that she swallows and not inhales it.

Don't know if this would be possible with Pallie but just wanted to toss in an idea that worked for me on a much smaller pup.

Belly Rubs and Quacks.

[Wylie's Mom]

According to this, adding some milk or skim milk to water did the trick for some dogs:

http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf24933014.tip.html

Someone also had mentioned a squirt bottle, similar to John's suggestion of a syringe w/o the needle.

Also, see if running water is more appealing.

-Susy

QUACK, QUACK, QUACK!

[lulusmom]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on this. I have been advised by a close friend who has a son being treated by a licensed nutrionist that the flax products do oxidize and become rancid and in-effective rapidly. I have baked with ground flax for years which is what lignans are and I store mine in the freezer. I have never noticed an objectionable odor in the ground flax and almost always tast it before adding it to whatever. I have however had flaxseed oil with a strong odor and have discarded it. The nutirionist I am mentioning is very particular about using only flaxseed oil which is stored, distributed and marketed under refrideration. The main brand she recommends is Barleans.

Scott

Scott, you had brought this subject up a day or two ago and I meant to answer your question about the shelf life for the pressed flax hulls. It's two years which should be no problem, even with dosing a wee one like Lulu.

Glynda

[forscooter]

Steph...

Just read another hint....since Pallie is a water-playing girl....does she like running water? Like from garden hoses? One suggestion I read said something about one of those bowls that keeps the water fresh and flowing and may entice her over to it???

Still working on it! :D

[judymaggie]

Steph -- when my Maggie's kidneys started to fail, her vet did start her on Alternagel, a phosphate binder. It was a liquid that I just squirted in her mouth with a syringe. She was a great pill taker but I really thought she was going to balk with the first dose -- instead, she actually seemed to like the taste and didn't mind it all. Definitely something to ask your vet about.

Lots more QUACKS headed in Pallie's direction!

Judy H. (always Maggie's Mom)
Riverview, FL

[SachiMom]

Steph,
Just needed to send a few more west coast QUACKS! out to Pallie.
Along with healing thoughts and prayers.
Then I'll throw in (((((BIG HUGS))))) for you.
You are amazing.
~ Mary Ann

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

Hi Steph,

Haven't heard about Pallie since Thursday and was wondering how she is doing?

I was reading some info on canine renal disease and one of the things that caught my eye was the fact that BUN rises with renal dysfunction but it is also influenced by many other extrarenal factors, one of them being increased protein intake. Maybe that is why Pallie's BUN went up again as protein is basically all she is eating now. Just a thought.

Sending Pallie some QUACK-A-ROONIES......QUACK-QUACK-QUACK

Louise

[corgipallie]

I am so glad Apollo and I picked out a magic duckie instead of a magic tennis ball. I love the quacks!!!

Pallie is doing great with her fluids. Last night she ate some turkey lunch meat for the first time in 4 weeks. We're taking corgi steps.

I talked to my vet about the phosphate binder, and he said:

this is important in the long term therapy in dogs with elevated phos.
He wants Pallie on it as soon as we think she's pretty stabilized, which means her BUN going down some. He said on her last test (which was before the acute kidney attack), her phos was normal and when we retest her BUN and creatinine in 2 weeks, he'll add the phosphorus test to it and we'll start the phosphate binder if she needs it. He also said he resisted giving her another oral medication until her tummy was pretty settled too.
I gave her some milk last weekend and she threw that up and that was the last time she has vomited so hopefully her tummy is getting better too.

Her flax hulls arrived in the mail today. I'm reading through the booklet now and she'll get these on her dinner tonight.

Q
U
A
C
K
!!!!

[gpgscott]

Hi Steph,

I am glad the Dr. is going to add phosphorus to the labs. Low phos is much worse than high so you can't assume that inappetance is caused by nausea caused by high phosphorus.

Still Quacking away here for you both.

[corgipallie]

I was reading some info on canine renal disease and one of the things that caught my eye was the fact that BUN rises with renal dysfunction but it is also influenced by many other extrarenal factors, one of them being increased protein intake. Maybe that is why Pallie's BUN went up again as protein is basically all she is eating now. Just a thought.

I know Louise. It's a catch 22. She's not yet interested in a low-protein dog food like k/d, which she was eating for 2 years before this all happened. Still right now, it's just important for her to eat. She's still refusing a lot of foods. My vet said that the protein would hurt her kidneys if she was on high-protein diet for a long period of time, like 6 months. But he said for the short term until she will eat other things, it won't do much harm. We just now need her to eat other things because I only have a few months left before it could do damage. He said sodium is much more dangerous than protein. And not eating, of course, is the worst of it all. He did say at our last visit that if Pallie were a human, her state of her kidneys she would be on dialysis and on a transplant list. What I wouldn't give to be able to give her one of my kidneys right now.

Scott-- thanks for the info. I am glad my vet is aware of her need for it if her levels are low.

[MiniSchnauzerMom]

My vet said that the protein would hurt her kidneys if she was on high-protein diet for a long period of time, like 6 months. But he said for the short term until she will eat other things, it won't do much harm. We just now need her to eat other things because I only have a few months left before it could do damage.

That's good! Is she still liking the toast?

Glad she's doing well with her fluids and that she is starting to add things like the turkey to her "will eat" list. :D

.......QUACK-QUACK-QUACK



Louise

[forscooter]

Steph,

Pallie has been truly amazing....a true WONDER-corgihound if there ever was one! I am still hoping and QUACKING that she'll get back to eating better and it sounds like she is....she's just doing it in Pallie-time! Keep the faith!!!!

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie (who still has instructions to hold Pallie's paw!!!:))

[ventilate]

Steph;
Not sure if you remember Karrel and Benson? Benson was a Bouvier, was diag with cushings. Karrels hubbie started the post and refered to Karrel as "the wife" so she wrote and continues Bensons story and signed it" the wife" any way at one point she was willing to donate any of her husbands organs to the dogs. Unfortunately Benson passes away from something else not cushings related. Anyway I wish Karrel was still here with us, I am sure she would still be willing to share her husbands organs:eek:
Hugs to you all
Sharon

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Steph,


Her flax hulls arrived in the mail today. I'm reading through the booklet now and she'll get these on her dinner tonight.

How did Pallie react to the hulls?

Still QUACKING here in PA.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to you and Pallie.
Lori

[corgipallie]

How did Pallie react to the hulls?

She seems to be just fine. She's gotten a few days' worth so far. I sprinkle them on her chicken and beef and she eats them up just fine. I haven't tried them myself to see what they taste like, but picky Pallie doesn't even know they are there.

She ate a Ritz cracker yesterday and part of a muffin today. She's barking more at noises outside, and tonight is responding accordingly to some asshole setting off fireworks (sorry for the language. It pisses me off). I'm almost glad she's scared of the booms.

QUACKBOOMQUACK!

[Squirt's Mom]

quack!! quack!! quack!! quack!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Steph,

So glad sweet Pallie is trying new things to eat for her Mom, and it sounds like she must be feeling better if she's barking at strange noises! :) Good girl!!

I was looking in the baby-food section in the grocery store, some of the baby-food, mainly the fruits/vegs, are very low in sodium..like the first and second stage foods sold in the little jars. I don't know if Pallie can have any of them...just a thought. Still thinking..:confused::)

We're still QUACKING here in York, PA.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to you and Pallie,
Lori and Harley.

[lulusmom]

Hi Stephanie,

I'm glad to hear that Pallie is eating a bit more and acting more like her self. Flax hulls are always better sitting on a Ritz ya know. :D

I would think that your vet did a renal panel on Pallie when she went into acute failure so if you can you get your hands on that panel, we'd love to have you post the results here?

It's been over 48 hours since your last Pallie Report and inquiring minds want to know how your girl is doing. :)

Glynda

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Steph,

Just quack quack dropping in to see quack quack how Pallie the Wonder Corgi quack quack is doing.

quack quack quack quack quack

Hugs and big QUACKS!!,
Leslie and the girls

[corgipallie]

Hi all,
Pallie's still holding stable. Fluids are going in well and she's eating her five-star dinner like a champ. I found some ground chicken at the store and have been trying that over the ground beef and so far so good. She's still getting her rotisserie chicken too. She's into muffins these days so I got some Fiber One muffin mix and that's tomorrow's project. Her fiber source was the toast, but now she's not into toast. And she needs more fiber than what the crappy store-bought muffins have (it was just another fluke I found out she likes them).

She's been more active at home - getting up when there's a noise, barking outside, responding to Mr. Squirrel in the trees, growling at Apollo, etc. She likes going outside too but just likes to sit and chill. She has no interest in walking or going in the water to cool off. I'm just glad I can get her out of the house into the fresh air. The humidity has been low the last few days so that's been a huge help!
She goes back to the vet on Thursday for an updated BUN/Creatinine check, which will be 2 weeks since the last when we switched her fluids to every day.

Flax hulls and melatonin capsules are going in great too. I hope keeping the atypical cushings under control helps keep her more comfortable too.

Both pups are not liking the firecrackers outside right now. Grrrrrrr :mad:

Glynda, here are her lab reports:
(normal creatinine .5-1.8 Normal BUN 7-27)

5/30- Creatinine 2.3 BUN (don't have this paperwork but it was normal)
6/11- Creatinine 7.3 BUN 123
6/12 (from ER after on fluids for 24 hrs) - Creatinine 7.3 BUN 140
6/15 - after ICU fluids - Creatinine 3.4 BUN 130
6/18 - after off fluids for 2 days - Creatinine 4.3 BUN 110
6/25 - after on sub-q fluids every other day for a week Creatinine 3.4 BUN greater than 130
7/9 - TBD after on sub-q fluids every day for 2 weeks

[Truffa's Mom]

Hooray for the rotisserie chicken and the fluke muffin.
We keep sending tons of healing QUACKS...the firecrackers will be soon over....and lets hope the humidity also keeps low.

We Luv 'ya Pallie

SUPER GIGA QUACK!!!!!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Steph,

Just sending some magical QUACKS


She goes back to the vet on Thursday for an updated BUN/Creatinine check, which will be 2 weeks since the last when we switched her fluids to every day.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs to you and Pallie.
Lori

[corgipallie]

It's time for a happy corgi kidney magic duckie dance!

Pallie's creatinine dropped to 2.5! (3.4 2 weeks ago and acute attack was 7.3). BUN down to 96 (2 weeks ago was >130).

Her anemia problem is a little better too. It was 24% 2 weeks ago and is now at 29% (normal 37%-55%), which means her kidneys are feeling better and making some red blood cells again (they stop making red blood cells when they're sick, which is why anemia is a sign of kidney disease -- I learned a lot in the last month!)

So we continue sub-q fluids every day and retest in 10 days or so. Her lipase is up and on the brink of causing a pancreatitis problem, and vet thinks it's because of the ground beef she's eating (since her appetite is still low). But I'm cutting that out now and she's going to get more chicken and I'll figure out what else. But low fat from now and we'll see how that responds in 10 days. He's not terribly worried about a problem with the lipase as an acute problem, but it MUST come down and it's directly related to fat intake.

Phosphorus test had to be send to the lab and I'll get that back tomorrow. But he said with her creatinine down, it MAY be not as high as it was a few weeks ago (when it wasn't tested).

I brought with me the flax hulls. He took a look and smelled them because he's never seen them. I brought them since that's what Dr. Oliver is endorsing now and my vet has other atypicals, so maybe it will help someone else since I'm the only one of his clients so far that has bought them.

We're also holding off on the implant for now again. She's getting her melatonin via capsule still. We'll see how she is on the next test and then my vet takes a well-deserved vacation (funded by Pallie of course - hee hee).

My vet is still kind of in shock that she's doing so much better. He kept saying she's not built for this (aka cushings, age, etc). I told him my spirit is strong and it's keeping hers strong too. He thinks I'm crazy...but he already knows I'm crazy.

The power of the magic duckie and all your quacks is so amazing!! I can't describe it. I just know it's working!!!

Steph and Pallie (and Apollo and Bojangles the hedgehog too)

QUACK!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Steph....Oh Pallie....I am sooo Happy for you both..a happy corgi kidney magic duckie dance it will be!

Pallie's number's going down & RBC up, Barney's operation being a success, two reasons to celebrate, we need Louise to get out that blender...Please...with Grand Marnier truffles dipped in Belgian chocolate on top.:D

Well Steph we'll certainly keep the QUACKS going on here in PA.

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Hugs from your PA. friends.
Lori

[forscooter]

Steph,

I have little doubt that Pallie gets her strength directly from her mom!!! With all that she has endured in her life with medical issues, she has proven she is one tough little cookie. And with your tender loving care, there was no doubt that she would get back on her feet....for however long. Your vet MUST know by now how tough and determined Pallie....she isn't the wonder corgihound for now reason!!!!

Still QUACKING away!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always Scoobie

[corgipallie]

Phosphorus is in...

Pallie: 6.1
Normal 2.5-6.0

Pretty darn good I'd say. The tech called me because my vet is out today. But she did say she called him at home to let him know the results. He said it's not an emergency and we can talk about it on Monday whether to treat it or not. We can treat it and retest in 10 days when I go back, or we can leave it alone and retest in 10 days and see what it does. In the meantime, obviously she's on a low-phosphorus diet.
I know some foods that are low phosphorus, but that info is never on nutritional info labels so if anyone knows specifics on low phosphorous, I'd love to know what you know! Thanks!!!

<3

[judymaggie]

Hi, Steph! If you click on this link and scroll down to the bottom, there are several low phosphorus recipes/treats:

http://www.vetprof.com/clientinfo/KidneyDiseaseInDogs/diet.htm

Lots of hugs sent your way and, of course, lots of ...

QUACKS!!

[Squirt's Mom]

quack quack quack

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Steph,

You can go to the USDA website to find out the phosphorous levels and all the nutrients of any food that a person eats. Here is the link incase your interested:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=17032

QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK! QUACK!

Lori

[Carol G]

This site has some good info on phosphorus levels in foods.

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

(scroll down a bit and there are charts)

Quacks from

Carol, Atty Cat & always Winnie & McGill

[corgipallie]

A small victory...
Pallie is eating my cooking.
I made some boneless, skinless chicken breast for her and she likes it. Don't worry, the burning smell is normal.

This saves a lot of time and money getting a rotisserie chicken every other day.

What she's getting these days is the chicken, ground turkey breast, white pasta, white bread, and her meds wrapped in lunch meat turkey. I also put a little low-sodium marinara sauce on the pasta. Her flax hulls are also evenly distributed and she doesn't even know they are there. I have yet to taste them but they smell pretty bland.

So far, so good.

This all matches into a low fat, low sodium and low phosphorus diet.

My vet said today that since her phosphorus wasn't too high, we'll see how she does without a phosphate binder this week since she will get a full panel blood/urine test on 7/20. If it goes up, or he feels we should add the supplement, we will next week.


Carol,

This site has some good info on phosphorus levels in foods.

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

This has been EXTREMELY helpful! Thanks! I printed a copy and gave it to my vet for him to review and let me know if anything mentioned wasn't good for Pallie or medically inaccurate. There is an email group for dogs with kidney disease, and they use this guide too, I learned. :-)

[forscooter]

So, Steph, you are hosting the first CC dinner convention????

QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love ya! Me

[Carol G]

Isn't it wonderful when they eat what you cook for them -- and I know from experience it is more than a small victory.

I can't take credit for finding that site -- someone posted it to me for McGill.

Quacks

Carol, Atty Cat and always Winnie & McGill

[corgipallie]

Pallie is going back to the vet this afternoon. She feels icky and I can't figure out why. Perhaps a UTI with her not responding to baytril anymore? Perhaps kidneys? Cushings? Who knows. I just know that look in her eyes when she feels crappy. She ate good last night. She ate her breakfast this morning, but she turned it down at first and then I started hand feeding her. Then she moved my hand out of the way and started eating on her own, but she left the bread. She only ate the turkey, chicken and pasta. I guess that's a decent sign but when she refused everything at first, that was when I called the vet. We'll see what he can say. I'm taking urine with me.

[forscooter]

Oh no...I hope it was just a blip!! Please let us know!! I'm QUACKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love ya! Beth, Bailey and always, Scoobie

[Harley PoMMom]

QUACKING here too.

Hugs.
Lori