Newbie - Danny (mix 13 or 14) Would love a little guidance through this

[Danny Girl]

Hi everyone!
My name is Lisa and Danny the dog is my gorgeous little man. I found this site last summer when he was rushed to the emergency room one night (with a VERY expensive bladder infection :mad:). They tested him to the hilt and his liver values came back elevated and the emergency vet suspected cushings. My vet said there really wasn't a reason to start testing as he was doing fine (although there was an increase in urination). He also said the high liver value is common in older dogs (I got him at 8-9 years old. It's all a guess at his age. I'm thinking 13-14 currently) Then he developed mange. Then another skin infection. My vet still said that he was hesitant to go down the testing of cushings rode because the treatment is very serious and he was still doing OK even though it was clear that his immune system has been compromised. Just last month he had another bout of mange and he has been peeing like crazy AND now he is having difficulty with steps. So alas, the vet said after this round of mange treatment we are going to get the stim test.
Currently I have him on hugs and kisses vitamins, probiotics, immune booster and a product called cushing's crusher which is a holistic product from nature's farmacy. (And plenty of pee-pee pads!:p)
I'm a little overwhelmed and would love any tips or information regarding what I should be talking to my vet about all of this. Questions for him? What do I need to know? Also, I am really worried about the financial aspect of all this. He does have VPI insurance although it has done NOTHING for me for anything else. I just feared cancelling it due to any emergencies and here we are...
I do remember reading about how the stim test can be split?
I don't know where to start. Everyone on here is so knowledgeable and kind and I am so thankful I found you all. I'm tearing up and my little man is chasing a cat in his sleep :) I think that's his way of letting me know I just need to chill out.
Thank you in advance.
Best,
Lisa
& Danny the dog

[lulusmom]

Hi Lisa and welcome from a fellow So Californian.

I'm sure sorry for the circumstances that brought you here but I'm very glad that you found us. We are a great bunch of hand holders so in addition to Danny telling you to chill out, I'm gonna tell you the same thing because you don't have to do this alone. We all remember the first time we heard the word cushing's and I can't say that I know of too many other words that sent a chill down my spine like the "c" word. I have two cushdogs, one diagnosed six years ago and the other four years ago so the chills passed a long time ago. :D

Adult dogs with compromised immune systems are predisposed to demodex mange so I am assuming this is what Danny has....right? Not all of our dogs have experienced mange but one of my fosters, a little senior Shih Tzu, had demodex and ringworm prior to be diagnosed with cushing's. It is not considered a symptom of cushing's but if a vet sees demodex in an adult dog, a big red cushing's flag usually goes up. Danny looks to be a bully breed and in my experience in rescue, bully breeds seem to be more prone to demodex anyway. It is not always easy to get it under control so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that whatever treatment regimen your vet has prescribed will do the trick.

We normally ask a million questions...okay so I exaggerate...maybe only twenty or so. :D So let me start off the Q & A by asking that you please gather up all of the blood and urine tests that have been done and post the abnormal values here, including the normal reference ranges. Since no diagnostic tests have been done yet, you are getting off easy around here. :D Just remember that as additional testing is done, be sure to get copies and post the results here.

I see you are a Warren Eckstein fan too. I listen to him religiously every weekend. One of these days I'm going to call in and get me some free Hugs and Kisses. Now about the Cushing's Crusher. I happen to get really annoyed by companies who make outlandish claims about their product with absolutely no scientific proof of their claims so I hound them to provide proof of their claims. I've written to every ecommerce I have found on line who claims to have a product that helps or cures cushing's. Believe me, if any vitamin or herbal supplement could cure cushing's, some of us could have retired by now on the money we would have saved. FYI, the manufacturer of Cushing's Crusher was the last company I wrote to back in May. I received the following reply:


Hi Glynda: Your questions were referred to me. I am the founder of the company and I will be glad to attempt to answer all your questions. There will be a delay, however, as my 93 year old mother is in the hospital and having some problems. I just got a call from the hospital and have to leave. Since my answer to you will be detailed, I will not be able to handle it now. I hope you won't mind if it is a couple days or so before I will have time. I appreciate your patience. We always appreciate questions from our customers, as we feel it is important to educate our customers. Hopefully this will be OK with you. The other person who would be able to answer is currently out of the office and out of the country. Kind regards, Jeanette Pickett

Needless to say, Ms Pickett has never responded so I am still waiting for that education she was going to give me. Yeah right! A simple, "no we have no clinical trials or scientific evidence to support our claims" would have been sufficient. These people prey on newbie cushparents who are scared, devastated, desperate and looking for anything natural or anything that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to cure our dogs. They should be ashamed of themselves. I would suggest that you save your money next time.

I'm looking forward to hearing a lot more about Danny.

Glynda

P.S. I see you are in L.A. I am in downtown L.A. from 9:00 to 5:00 M - F but live 50 miles east in Ontario.

[addy]

Hi Lisa and Danny and Welcome from me and my pup Zoe,

You have found a caring group of people willing to help with whatever you need.

If you can list your tests and results it helps our moderators. Also any abnormal values on a blood test or urine test.

Learning all you can about Cushings helps you to be a good advocate for your pup. Our Resource Section has a wealth of information in it and is always a good place to start.

We are all overwhelmed when we face the diagnosis. It is the fear of the unknown, I think, which rattles us so. It took me a year to start Zoe's treatment.

Hugs,
Addy

[mytil]

Hi Lisa,

I am glad you started Danny's thread and welcome again.

I know it is overwhelming, but we are all here to help. When you can read through some of these links - http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180, they will help explain some things that could be happening as well as about the testing.

Keep us posted
Terry

[Faith]

I am sorry to hear of your troubles.......my dog was just diagnosed, but he is doing well so far.......we are not going to treat him yet......just wanted to let you know that we too have VPI insurance, and they covered the majority of the testing minus a small deductible......hope this eases your mind a bit.....GOOD LUCK, and hugs to you and your pup!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Lisa and welcome to you and Danny! :)

I LOVE that face! :D Makes me want to just hug him to pieces! :D I had a pitty mix and loved her dearly and miss her daily. She taught me so much about the bully breeds and I am now a fan for life. Thank you so much for rescuing this precious man and giving him a loving home. You are an Angel!

When you said you were tearing up, I start tearing up, too. :o I remember so well how I felt when my Squirt was first diagnosed. For weeks on end all I could do was cry. I was constantly grabbing her up and squeezing her to me as if that could take all of it away and make her ok again. I stayed on the computer and phone, totally obsessed with Cushing's, desperately searching for help. I finally found it here...but was in really bad shape by that time. A friend told me later that she envisioned me looking like a woman who had her finger stuck in a light socket - hair standing on end....she kindly left out the bulging eyes and flying slobber! :p I was truly a basketcase - nothing I read, nothing anyone told me made any sense. All I could think was that my Sweet Bebe was dying and I felt so helpless.

These kind folks took me in, held my hand, and gently led me along the Cushing's path. They taught me about this condition, about it's treatment, about living with Cushing's on a daily basis. But, most importantly, they taught me that this was not a death sentence. On several occasions, I have crawled back into that basket and started drooling only to have many loving hands reach in and pull me out, wipe me down, and stand me on my feet again. We are family; you and Danny are family now, too. As Glynda said, you are no longer alone, ever. All you have to do is holler. ;) OH! We have our own little looney bin here, too, and if you ever feel the need, just let me know and I will scoot over for you! :p

So, you just take a deep breath and relax a bit. You and Danny are home now and safe. :)

Keep your chin up!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Danny Girl]

Glynda! YOU ARE ON IT! Wow, that's great. I have to say as far as the Cushings Crusher goes, when I found out things were going in that direction I went looking for ANYTHING. I actually spoke to the nutrition consultant on the phone (about the probiotics & digestives to boost his immune system from the mange) and was really pleased. I won't be getting the crusher again because I have no way of even know it's doing anything and save my money. If you hear of anything that helps I would LOVE to hear it. My vet laughed when he saw all my containers when I brought them in. He said he thought Danny was a bodybuilder with all his supplements!
I can't believe you've had this diagnosis twice. I'm so sorry. Is it very common?
Yep, Danny has some Frenchy in him I think. Definitely prone to skin issues. The first round of demodex mange was pretty tough. He was (and is) treated with Ivermect liquid and shampoo. During the first bout I felt like it wasn't working and again went searching and found a GREAT (but stinky) product called Nu-stock. Basically it's liquid sulfer in a bottle and cleared it pretty quick. Apparently sulfer is an old school farm remedy. When I saw a spot on him last month I put it on him immediately so this round is not too bad and his coat already starting to grow back. (He is from LA after all, although he's missing most of his teeth looks are important to him :D )
That is some commute you have!

Addy (and Zoe), did waiting a bit to start treatment cause the condition to get worse or was it OK? I'm thinking like you I think, and want to be very informed and make sure I'm doing what's best.

Terry, thanks so much for the link. I know I have so much to look through and get educated on. It does make me spin.

Thanks so much for the replies! I know I haven't nearly even scratched the surface but I already feel like I'll be prepared and ready for battle when we start testing. So blood, urine test values, abnormal results and normal ranges. Got it so far. Thanks for reassuring me and getting me on my way!

So happy I found you guys.
Best,
Lisa & Danny the dog

[addy]

Addy (and Zoe), did waiting a bit to start treatment cause the condition to get worse or was it OK? I'm thinking like you I think, and want to be very informed and make sure I'm doing what's best.

According to Dr. Feldman from UC Davis treating Cushings is seldom an emergency. A vet experienced with Cushings will wait for strong symptoms. Treating does not cure the disease but alleviates symptoms, giving the pup a better quality of life.

When I spoke with Dr. Allen at Dechra (the manufactures of Vetoryl/Trilostane) he explained that Cushings is a slowly progressive disease. He thought I would see whatever symptoms Zoe had worsen and then I would start seeing new symptoms. I started with only hair/coat issues, then started to progress to hind leg weakness (not wanting to jump on the bed, then the sofa, then not doing the stairs) Her appetite progressed to looking for food not only in the house but also outside.

How Cushings progresses will vary with each dog. I was always worried diabetes would show up, it can. Still worry about it. I try to keep her weight down a bit.

Hugs,
Addy

[Danny Girl]

Faith, so HAPPY to hear that!!! When I rescued Danny he had a skin allergy and when I got him the insurance I said as much (stupid, stupid, stupid). It's a rash he gets every spring/summer and they cover zip! So far it's been a waste for me but maybe now it will make up for it. Fingers crossed.

Leslie (& the gang), you are so dear. And I am so happy to realize there are people like me out there too! Sometimes I just hold him thinking about him being gone (and SOBBING like mad!!!) And I get it, he's older. I signed up for this knowing it never "ends" well but when it starts leering it's head... Ugh. There's no being prepared. I might of saved Danny from the clinker (& a worse fate) but it turns out my toothless mutt saved me 10 times over.

Last summer I went into information overload and a friend told me I had to stop. He wasn't even officially diagnosed and I was in crazy mode already. So now crazy mode is back again. Hopefully much calmer now because everyone here seems so reassuring and knowledgeable.

He does have a face that just kills me. A friend told me with his looks and personality he's a cross between Yoda & Tony Soprano. :D

Thanks so much guys!
Best,
Lisa & Danny

[lulusmom]

Before I get all serious, I have to tell you that I cracked up when I read your vet's body builder comment. I do understand though because Danny does look pretty buff. :D Now for the serious issue. The fact that Danny's coat is growing back is odd as dogs with uncontrolled cushing's usually experience extremely slow to no regrowth of coat until treatment has brought the cortisol down to more normal levels. This would raise questions about whether cushing's is the culprit here.

With excessive peeing being the only common symptom associated with cushing's, I wouldn't automatically jump on the cushing's bandwagon and start expensive testing. If it were me, I'd start with a urinalysis to check urine specific gravity and a culture to rule out a UTI as the cause for Danny's increased peeing. Your vet may have already done that and if so, then my next step would be to get the demodex under control and then do a urine cortisol creatinine ratio. This is a simple and inexpensive test and all you have to do is collect a urine specimen, preferrably the first pee of the morning before meds and any food. If you can't get the specimen to the vet in an hour or two, refrigerate the specimen. If the ratio is normal, you can pretty much rule out cushing's. If the ratio is high, cushing's is a possibility but so are any number of non adrenal illnesses so additional testing will have to be done. ACTH stim tests are not cheap so this is the logical order of things I would opt for. Speaking of acth stim tests, I don't have time at the moment but I will post some valuable information later which can save you money if you ultimately have to do a stim.

Glynda

P.S. Please remember to round up the tests that have been done and post the abnormal values for us. I am interested to know how elevated the liver enzymes are.

[Danny Girl]

Addy, that's good to hear. I think my vet is on that page too. It's been almost a year that I started noticing things and only after I told him about the frequency of the urination and now the hind leg weakness did he say it was time to test. His appetite has increased a bit (gained 3 pounds since last visit) and I can now see his vertebrae more pronounced which leads me to believe that he is getting that pot belly. It's hard to tell with him though because he always carried his weight there. So far, besides the 2 mange outbreaks his coat has been normal.
I know I shouldn't restrict water for him but I should ask about the food maybe.
I am so impressed with the wealth of information that everyone has! I know it's not by choice put I for one am so thankful that you are so proactive and aggressively searching. AND that people are so actively here.

Best,
Lisa & Danny

[Danny Girl]

You guys are quick! I love it!
Glynda,
Yep we did a urinalysis for possible cushings and it came up postive (don't know the numbers but I'll be sure to get it all). I'm assuming it was the urine cortisol creatinine ratio test you mentioned because it was done with those exact orders you mentioned. First thing, full bladder...
My vet said the same thing, get the mange dealt with and then we do the stim test next. That info would be GREAT on the money saving tip. That's a BIG concern for me. He gave me a ballpark of how much it would cost and I nearly choked.

So far his coat has been in good shape (as far as cushings symptoms). And that Nu-Stock product I mentioned supposedly grows hair on a stick (as one user wrote). I'm telling you, it was a life saver last round. The mange spread like it exploded when he got it the first time. It went from a spot on his paw to his entire chest and front paws in 2 days! This time I saw a spot and treated it immediately and while it spread a bit, not nearly as much as the first bout. They say it's really good for a multitude of skin issues. The only thing is that it really dries them (and you!) out so you have to be careful of cracking. It supposedly takes the itch away immediately too.

I would LOVE it if it wasn't cushings but the symptoms keep looking more and more like it. Sigh. Will gather the info for sure. He should be done his mange treatment in about a week or so.

Yeah, my boy like to act likes a little tough guy. Mr. Muscles! :)
Best,
Lisa & Danny

[jmac]

I just wanted to say hello. My dog, Hannah (12 year-old Shih Tzu), was diagnosed back in March. We are currently on Anipryl, as she has not had any extreme symptoms, and according to her last blood test, her liver values dropped significantly after about 6 weeks on Anipryl. We will get another blood test in early August to see how she is doing. Nothing is getting worse, and she seems to beg for food less than she was previously.

I remember feeling the same way at first. Where do I start? What do I do? Is Hannah going to die soon? I cried a lot, and also was glued to the computer, learning everything I could. I am so thankful for this website, and for all of the help from everyone. It is what kept me sane, truly. You have found a wonderful place to ask questions and get advice, with really caring people and dog lovers! There are tons of great resources too, so you can educate yourself. Good luck to you and Danny!

Julie & Hannah

[Danny Girl]

Julie & Hannah
That's great news!!! You mentioned she had minimal symptoms but it seems what she did have lessened. Phew! That's great. I have had to invest in pee-pee pads BIG TIME as of late.
Thanks for sharing. I appreciate your support. You guys are great!
I feel SO MUCH better about all this.
Best,
Lisa & Danny

[jmac]

Hi Lisa,
I just wanted to mention one other thing regarding cost. Have you heard of Care Credit? It's a special credit card you can apply for to help for vet bills, medical costs, etc. They don't charge interest if you pay the monthly payments (which they break down, and the length of time depends on the cost). I have it for emergencies or very large expenses. I had to use it with my former pooch, Bailey, after an emergency vet visit several years ago for over $700. I believe I had 6 months to pay with no interest. It might be something to look into...but you also need to see if the vet office will accept it. I know it can be pricey, but it seems that after the initial testing phase (Hannah had the Low Dex Suppression test-I think for about $280, and then an abdominal ultrasound-$450?) that it gets better. Again, good luck to you!
Julie

[Danny Girl]

Julie, Thanks!
Definitely something to look into. I have so much to get acquainted with. Really appreciate it. Money is a big concern. I see that this diagnosis is a very expensive one but good to hear that it doesn't necessarily stay that way!
Thanks again!
Best,
Lisa