Shatzi and I are looking for information

[Shatzi and Darlene]

Hello, Shatzi is a 9 year old Doxie whom we got from a couple who
passed away, he is 23lbs and has rubbed or bitten much of his hair off, we
have had him on Temeril which worked for awhile but his problem
has gotten worse and unresponsive to the drug.
Suspecting Cushings we had him tested which
showed him consistant pituitary dependent, he had been off Temeril
1/2 of 5 mg. twice a day for 5 days and no prednisone since January, he is also taking Thyto-Tabs 1/2 of 2 mg twice a day for
Thyroid
The vet wants to repeat the ACTH but our vet is big on over testing
so we wonder if it really is necessary, the other alternative was to
put him on Vetoryl 10mg to see if it helps. The vet thinks that Lysodron would be better but wants the test again before using it.
Lysodron from what I've read sounds very strong.
We do also use a homeopathic vet but are not sure there would be
a homeopathic answer to Cushings, we are going to ask him.
We'd appreciate any suggestions, poor Shatzi is miserable, the
licking and scratching are hard to watch.
Other than the hair loss problem he eats well, sleeps a lot during the day, water consumption is somewhat increased and he walks (or mainly runs) a mile most every day.

[StarDeb55]

Welcome to you & Shatzi, Darlene! In relation to the Temaril, how long had the drug been discontinued prior to the ACTH? I ask because one of the main components of Temaril is prednisone.

Also, please do not fear lysodren. I have successfully treated 2 dogs with lysodren, now. My first boy, Barkley, was treated with lysodren for nearly 8 years, crossing the bridge at 15. Both drugs are strong. Pups can get into trouble with either medication when you have an inexperienced vet who is not following standard protocols for loading or dosage of the drug, & is flying by the seat of their pants. This is why it's extremely important for you to become an educated, informed parent about Cushing's as you are Shatzi's only voice. Please take a look at our important information section as there are many links that will lead you to just about any information you might need concerning Cushing's.

[Shatzi and Darlene]

Thank you Star, I will follow your suggestion.
I did talk to the homeopathic vet today, we have an appt. on Thurs.,
I understand that there ARE homeopathic solutions, have you ever
encountered any? Naturally I'm a bit skeptical.

[frijole]

Hi from me! Deb (Star) asked about the drug Temaril because it has prednisone in it. Can you please answer how long your dog was on it? She asked because that would/could increase the cortisol and so the tests would show cushings. The "cure" is to simply cease giving Temaril (slowly and with guidance from your vet) and then the cushing's is gone.

So please - was your dog taking the Temaril at the time of testing? When did Shatzi start on it and if no longer taking it, when was the last dose? Thanks!

Meanwhile - re homeopathic cures for cushings.... :( I hate to say it but there are none. There are all kinds of ''bottled supplements'' available but I have to tell you I have been dealing with cushings for over 6 yrs and if any of it worked I wouldn't be here, this board wouldn't exist because all the dogs would be on it. Sorry.

I'm hoping the problem was the Temaril... but if not then it is important to read up on cushings and the treatment options and of course ask us any questions you want. We have a resource library full of information from intl. specialists in the field.

I'm glad you found us and wish you and Shatzi the best. Kim

[Shatzi and Darlene]

Deb, thank you for your information,

Shatzi has been on Temeril for 2 years now, at first it helped then it
didn't seem to make a difference, except for 3 half tablets a week ago he was off it for a month, I called and asked the vet how long he should be off Temeril as I'm aware that it contains cortisone, they said 72 hours, he actually was off it for 5 days before the test, when the resultrs came back the vet consulted with a specialist who then wanted to do the test himself, my feeling is that if the 5 days off Temeril wasn't enough,in light of how long he has taken it, it would still affect the outcome so I declined, fortunately I stumbled onto this site and decided to ask the people who have had experience, I'm so glad your there.

I made an appt. with the holistic vet for tomorrow but his wife said
there were herbs that would work for Cushings, I doubted it and now you have confirmed it.

I appreciate you all taking the time to enlighten us, I'll let you know
what the holistic vet says. I'm thinking that maybe we need to keep
Shatz off the Temeril for quite awhile then have him tested again.
In the meantime we have to find something that will relieve his itching
and biting, the poor guy is miserable.

He also is allergic to Chicken and any kind of bird products, we give him Benedryl now for his allergy.

If you think we should have him tested again now we have no problem doing that.

[lulusmom]

Hi and a belated welcome to the forum.

I'd like to share a story about another member's whose dog had been on Temaril P and was diagnosed with cushing's only a week after weaning off the Temaril P. As I recall, there were more than a few of us that were questioning the diagnosis but I can't remember the specifics but it was probably because the dog had been taking Temaril P for allergies. The high cortisol in dogs with cushing's usually mask allergies, which then become apparent once the cushing's is treated. Since the member lived local to me, I recommended that she consult with my dogs' internal medicine specialist. She asked me if I could go with her and I obliged. It was then that I discovered that the dog had been on Temaril P less than a week before the LDDS test was done. This dog was misdiagnosed with pituitary dependent cushing's, when in fact he had iatrogenic cushing's caused by the Temaril P. I have a pretty bad memory but I distinctly remember my IMS saying that Temaril P stays in the system for at least 30 days. Veterinary professionals are always leary of dissing one of their own but in a roundabout way, my IMS said that testing was done too soon.

Glynda

[labblab]

Welcome from me, too!

I am wanting to clarify whether the screening test that was performed on Shatzi was an ACTH or instead a LDDS (Low Dose Dex test). In your initial reply you reference an ACTH, but you also say that the test pointed to pituitary Cushing's. An ACTH could not have provided information about the pituitary form of the disease -- that would instead have come from a LDDS. The reason why I ask is because an ACTH actually should have been able to indicate whether Shatzi is exhibiting problems as a result of prolonged steroid use as opposed to naturally occurring Cushing's. Here's a quote from Dr. Mark Peterson's veterinary blog: (http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/02/diagnosing-canine-cushings-disease.html)


[The ACTH is the] Best test to diagnose iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism in dogs. If the dog has clinical and laboratory features consistent with Cushing’s syndrome (e.g., polyuria, polydipsia, polyphagia, pot-belly, truncal hair loss, high serum alkaline phosphatase) but has a recent history of glucocorticoid use, this is the test of choice. If the cortisol response to ACTH stimulation is low-normal or blunted in this dog, the diagnosis would be iatrogenic Cushing’s, rather than the naturally occurring disease. None of the other pituitary-adrenal function tests can make this differentiation.

If the test was instead the LDDS, then all bets are off and the concerns that folks have expressed about the unreliability of the testing as a result of Shatzi's recent steroid use would also seem to me to be a valid concern. And if the first test was the LDDS, then that might explain why your vet is now suggesting re-testing with the ACTH -- so as to rule out iatrogenic Cushing's as an issue for Shatzi?

Marianne

[Shatzi and Darlene]

Shatzi went to our homeopathic vet today, he confirmed what you
all have been saying, that the LDDS test was worthless because he needed to be off the Temeril for at least 30 days so we are going to
concentrate on his skin problem and wait a month to see how he does. The vet thinks possibly it's not Cushings since his water consumption and urine are normal, at any rate we will do the ACTH
later to be sure. Thanks to all of you for your help, I'll still be monitoring the postings in the meantime.

Shatzi's mom

Moderator's Note: I have moved your update concerning Shatzi homeopath vet visit into Shatzi's main thread. We normally like to keep all posts on a pup limited to one thread as it makes it easier for other members to refer back to the pup's history, as needed.