Please help with this situation - serious or not??

[Bichonluver3]

I hope I am not out of place posting about Chloe's brothers here but I desperately need help and don't know where else to go. I have also posted on K9diabetes since it does involve Sparky but Grover is the primary culprit.

We have a real situation that needs serious help and I was hoping you could give us some direction.

We have 3 dogs:
Chloe, a Bichon spayed female who has Cushing's and who is 12 yo. We have had Chloe for
10 yrs.
Sparky, a Bichon neutered male, who is 9 yo who has diabetes. We have had Sparky for 8 years.
Grover who is a neutered male Maltipoo who we have had 2 years.
All 3 are rescues. When we rescued Grover, he followed Sparky around like a little brother and they got along very well.

Then when Grover turned 2 and "matured" he became very aggressive towards Sparky. Whenever Sparky walks over to Grover's crate, Grover comes rushing at Sparky and growls and snaps at him and they really fight. However in other areas of the house they will play wrestle.

Now, Grover acts the same toward toward Sparky if he (Grover) is under our bed and Sparky comes near.

Grover will also growl at Sparky if Sparky comes near Grover's dish (he never used to do this).

When they have the battle at the crates, we have separated them and put each one in their own crate until they settle down. Often Grover, does not want to come out of his crate.

Grover was a stray, wandering the streets when the animal control people found him and he was kept in a top row tiny cage.

Last Thursday, Grover again "attacked" Sparky when he came close to his crate and the battle started. Then I noticed Sparky's face was covered in blood and blood was spurting out from his eye area. It was a terrible mess and my husband rushed Sparky to
the vet's which is 4 minutes from our house.

Sparky had a severed artery in his lower area but there appeared to be no actual damage to the eye itself. He now has stitches and and an E-collar.

The director of the vet clinic did the repair and told my husband that this looked like a freak occurrence. He said Grover's tooth had caught on Sparky's eyelid and, when Sparky pulled away, he ripped the eyelid.

However, our regular vet disagreed and told my husband this behavior will only get worse.

We are just sick over this.

We are looking for any help to correct the behavior. Maybe, we need the help of a behaviorist? We love all 3 of our dogs and could not bear to part with any of them but I do not want to see Sparky (or any of them) hurt again.

Thanks for any help you can give.
Carrol

[addy]

Hi Carrol,

I am sorry to hear about your pups spats. The first thing that comes to my mind is Grover's health. Has he had a physical recently? If we know he is healthy, then we need to work on conditioning him for a better response and stop resource guarding.

Has he changed only to Sparky? If you go under the bed to get him out, what does he do?

There are books by Pat Miller or Patricia McConnell, any of the positive behaviorists that you could read. If you do look for a behaviorist, it MUST be one that changes behavior with operant or counter conditioning in a positive way. Good things must happen to Grover when Sparky comes to his crate, like what is his most favorite food? Does he respond to food? Grover in crate and Sparky walks by=REALLY GOOD FOOD TREATS. But it has to be done in phases. Like Grover is in crate and sees Sparky from a distance and is quiet so he gets a treat and you work to get Sparky closer and closer.

I bet Sas and Yunah thread can help. You could try emailing her. She is spot on with training.

I will look for some Pat Miller training links but I think if you get a clicker and some good food it would be doable.

Hang in there dear friend.

Love ya,
Addy

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Carrol,

yes, pretty serious, I would say. Unfortunately I had a long and exhausting visit at the hospital today and I now have a horrible migraine. And since this needs a lot more then just a few sentences and needs an entirly different approach then the "distract with a squeeky toy, do a happy dance and praise the dog straight into heaven" approach, I am not in the capacity to answer you just right now.

In short, it sounds like "sibbling rivalry"...where in this situation the younger dog tries to take over/challenges the position of the older dog. (this will usually happen when the younger dog gets to the age of 18 till 36 months)

Could you provide some info on how their pack ranking is/was? Not just between Grover and Sparky but also Chloe? And some more info on how they are treated by you and your husband? By this I mean...do you try and help the "underdog" whenever there's a situation? Or do you treat them according to packrules? The highest in rank gets his food first, etc? This sort of info will help me get a clearr picture of what is going on and the moment I feel somewhat better I will respond to you. In the meantime, do not try and convince Grover that's a good thing to let Sparky come near his crate for example...that's the exact opposite of what you should do :)

I'm sorry I can't answer you more detailed at the moment but will as soon as I can :)

Sas and Yunah :)

[SasAndYunah]

Forgot one other question... How does Sparky react to Grover's "aggression"? Does he "surrender", does he fight back? And if he does surrender...will Grover immediately stop the fight or not? Is Sparky avoiding Grover, looking away when near him or does Sparky go head to head with Grover?

So the more info you can give me, the better, thanks :)

Sas and Yunah.

[SasAndYunah]

Okay Carrol, here we go :)
And if at any given time things are not clear to you, let me know immediately and I will try and explain it better.

I assume that what is going on, is social status issues (or often called sibbling rivalry) I will first talk a bit about this so it may be easier to understand as you read on. From their evolutionary history we can tell that dogs are social animals. This enables them to live in groups. And living in a group enables them to work together to get food, to raise their babies and to defend their territory. So, as you can see, it would not be beneficial to the group for individual members to fight with each other at the risk of getting injured. And thus, dogs have a social structure in which each dog is either dominant or submissive in their relationship with each other groupmember, the so called dominance hierarchy. The packleader is the one that has first access to all important resources such as food, mates, territory, sleeping places and favorite possessions. The packleader will communicate his dominance generally through facial expressions, body postures and actions. Actual fighting is rare because as soon as the submissive one submits to the packleader (and he or she gets his/her way) the submissive one is giving up on the challenge.

Fights between dogs in the same household are often about social status. This type of aggression most often occurs when a dog reaches social maturity, which is generally between 18 - 36 months. The fights will be about those resources who are important to the dogs such as treats, food, toys, attention of the owner, sleeping arrangements, entrences/exits, narrow spaces, who gets to greet the owner first, etc. Most often these fights will occur between 2 dogs that have a near equal rank. And very often, but not always, it will be between 2 dogs of the same sex. This kind of social status issues between 2 females tends to be pretty severe, worse then with males.

Most owners will try to treat their dogs as equals but in fact, by doing so, they create even more problems because they go against the dominance hierarchy. The dog that is the most dominant in a relationship, needs to be supported in that position. (Mind you, a dog can have different positions in the hierarchy with different packmembers. For example, Grover could be dominant in relationship to Sparky, but Chloe could be dominant over Grover, making him the submissive one in their relationship. So Grover can be both dominant and submissive…depending with which dog he interacts. So, in this example, you should treat Grover as the dominant one in matters concerning Sparky but you should treat him as the submissive one in matters comcerning Chloe)
When you support or encourage the submissive dog when he tries to gain acces over valuable resources, you almost force the dominant dog to challence and fight the submissive one because he (the dominant one) needs to keep the submissive one in place. If you then discipline the dominant dog (for putting the submissive one in place) or pull him away, you have supported, favoured and have comt to the aid of the submissive dog. Needless to say, this will only prolong the social status issues.

One scenario that can result in social status aggression is when an older, previously dominant dog, is challenged by a younger, more dominant dog. This may happen because the older dog ages or gets weaker due to illness for example or it may happen because the younger dog reaches social maturity. And this seems to be going on with Sparky and Grover… It seems like Grover is trying to change the excisting hierarchy. Sometimes the older dog will surrender without any fight or problem and things will be fine. Sometimes the older dog is not ready to give up his position yet eventhough he physically cannot compete with the younger dog and this can result in severe fights with serious injuries. This can be a dangerous situation for the dogs but also the humans. Owners will often try and reach for the collars of the fighting dogs (or pick them up in the case of small dogs) and they may end up being bitten instead, the so called redirected aggression.

Okay, that’s all for now. I know I still haven’t told you what to do but will continue tomorrow. For now, I’m off and on to bed. But I hope that by reading this explanaition, you already get some insight on what’s going on and some understanding of why it is going on. For now, goodnight and till tomorrow…

Sas en Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Oh, Sas, I am sorry you are feeling under the weather. I am sorry to bother you. This started when Grover turned 2 years old.

Chloe was 2 when we adopted her. She was a rescue who had been terribly abused. It took 2 years before she would go near my husband or sons but she is okay now. I, personally, think she is the real alpha dog. She needed a lot of patience, love & surgery to get her to where she is now.

We adopted Sparky when he was 5 months (Chloe was about 3) as he was supposed to be shown but grew 1/2 too tall for a Bichon. He was very easy going and he and Chloe did not bother too much with each other but got along fine.

We adopted Grover 2 years ago (he was 1 yr old and out of time at the shelter. He is generally very loving, very good with people and dogs and is very, very smart. I believe he must have been lost as he was obviously socialized and trained. He treated Sparky like a big brother, following him around. Grover didn't pay too much attention to Chloe other trying to hump her at times but she puts him in his place. Then when Grover turned 2, he began this guarding of his crate and would not Sparky near it. He doesn't react if Chloe goes near it. Then he began guarding under our bed - again only with Sparky. He does growl when Sparky comes near his dish but has not attacked Sparky over this. I usually feed Grover in another room from the other 2.

From day 1, Grover has been Daddy's dog - Grover's choice. They are joined at the hip and my husband, who was always afraid of dogs, adores Grover. Grover will sleep next to me and come to me for tummy rubs, food etc but it is still clear to whom he belongs.
Chloe is attached to me and follows me everywhere and barks if I am out of her sight. Understandable, given her history. She sleeps in our bed. Grover sleeps in our bed sometimes and sometimes in his crate.

Sparky has always been a "loner" but would come around for the odd pat. Since he developed diabetes, he has become more loving and playful (since he has been getting insulin) and definitely much closer to me.

I think Sparky does back down, at times but he also will "herd" Grover at times. Chloe stays in the sidelines except when the boys are fighting, she puts herself in the middle and barks at them to stop(?). She seems to be barking at Sparky
Yes, we have, stupidly, intervened - separated them and put each in his crate (afraid they would hurt each other).If we let Grover out of his crate first and then Sparky, there is no further fighting. Maybe we are making a mistake giving Sparky his food first, then Chloe and then Grover.
Oh, I forgot to mention, Grover is a real "chewer" but destroys all his toys even the ones labeled indestructible, within 1/2 hour. He is without a chew toy most of the time. Stress?

[Bichonluver3]

We had another confrontation tonight. it lasted about an hour but I waited it out to see what would happen

Grover was on the sofa and Sparky was on the floor in front of the sofa so Grover started to growl at him.
They were barking at each other, no contact, tails wagbging and heads turned sideways.
My husband left the room, Grover followed him and Sparky followed Grover (no barking)
All came back and Grover went under the coffee table and laid down, barking at Sparking (standing) who was barking back
Sparky walked around the coffee table barking, Grover was laying under the table barking
Sparky walked away to the doorway, then turned and stared at Grover
Grover started to bark from under the table and Sparky came back to the table
Barking continued
Finally, Grover stayed under the table and Sparky walked away.

Then they slept together under the coffee table.

An hour later, Grover was on the sofa again and Sparky walked by. There was some growling but it only lasted a very few minutes and Sparky walked away and went back under the coffee table and Grover stayed on the sofa.

[SasAndYunah]

Carrol,

thank you for the detailed description of what happened :) This helps a lot and is very usefull. From the sound of it, I'd say the "battle" hasn't been clearly decided yet but from what you tell me, it looks like Grover is on the upper hand. ("Finally, Grover stayed under the table and Sparky walked away" and "Sparky walked away and went back under the coffee table and Grover stayed on the sofa". So it's Sparky that evetually will walk away. But..."Sparky walked away to the doorway, then turned and stared at Grover" is a clear sign that Sparky has no intententions yet to hand over his position without a "fight". Staring is a very dominant sign and can be interpreted as a decalaration of war by the other dog. The part where you say "heads turned sideways" tells me that they really don't want a real fight with each other and hopefully this issue will be resolved with some imposing behaviour a few growls and snares here and there and then the dispute will be settled.

I recommended you thouroughly watch their behaviour for all kinds of signs, prevent issues as much as you can and if all possible let them sort it out between themselves and follow their lead considering their hierarchy.

It's very well possible that Chloe is the true "matriarch" of the pack :) Intervening in fights is one sign of her leading position over the boys. Not interfere with minor issues is another sign. So, with a bit of guessing on Chloe's part (the info is really too little) I would say Chloe is the leading lady, and Sparky used to be the number 2 and Grover used to be number 3. But now that Grover has matured and Sparky is getting older, Grover is challenging Sparky for the number 2 position. And Sparky is not quite ready yet to swap positions with Grover. But from what you told me, it seems that Grover is moving closer to that second position. As long as their new positions aren't clearly established, keep a real close eye on them because this is the time in wich serious injuries can occur if the issue is getting out of control between both boys.

I would also suggest not to let Grover eat seperate from the others. Of course you would have to be pressent at all mealtimes and not let the dogs out of your site. Find a "safe" distance in wich Grover doesn't growl at Sparky and my suggestion would be to give Chloe her food first, then Grover and then Sparky.

You talked about a wonderful example of how acting accordingly to hierarchy helps calm things down, when you wrote: "If we let Grover out of his crate first and then Sparky, there is no further fighting". Here, Grover gets treated as being higher ranked then Sparky...and no fights occur. So therefore I would suggest that for now you start treating Grover as the second in place. But always with your eyes wide open and looking for signs (body postures etc) that tension is building between the both of them.

And perhaps you can close the "bed" from beneath so no one can get underneath the bed and you will avoid unnecessairy territory aggression. Any aggression (or possible cause for aggression) you can avoid, is very welcome at this stage.

Now that I reacted to some of the things you wrote, I will now continue with a more explanatory piece, sort of the follow-up of yesterday :) It's my experience that the better people understand why dogs behave as they do, the easier it is for them to fix it. So I therefore always try to tell as much as I can about the source of the behaviour, the reasons, dogs natural ways, etc. Wich I basically did yesterday. Now we continue...

To adress social status aggression, your first step is to gain complete control over both dogs. Your presence (and commands) should be enough to prevent and control all dominance issues between both dogs. This means, go back to the basics, starts training commands gain, reinforce the commands they already know and ad some new ones. Basically start obedience training all over. Futhermore do not give them control over resources anymore. You are the one that should control the access to resources such as toys, food, treats, games and attention. All this should be given at a time you decide, not when the dog wants/demands it. Attention (or games, or toys, etc) on demand will only encourage situations where one dog challenges the other so that needs to be avoided.

You need to identify and to support the dominant dog, I most cases this will be the younger, larger and the physical more able dog. (this is often the dog that owners will tell you is the “aggressor”) But your task is to give the dominant dog priority in all situations of potential competiion. For example let him in or out the first, greet him first, feed him first and pet him first. If you are petting the dominant one and the submissive one approaches, you make the submissive one sit (at a respectable distance) and wait. You’ll just have to avoid circumstances that can cause social status aggression. Therefore it is important to recognize canine body language and low level threats such as eyecontact, staring, snarls or low sounding growls. (I will try an see if I can find a good article about canine body language including pictures on the internet and if I do, I will give you he link)

Once you have gained sufficient control over both dogs and you are clear on who is the dominant one, you will need to deal with the situations that might instigate the aggression. Greetings should be calm and no overly excited, it might even be necessary to ignore both dogs at first when you return home. Movement through tight spaces should be controlled or avoided (doorways an such)and you need to be pressent to ensure that the dominant one has first access to food, sleeping places, owner attention, territory, treats, toys and such. In short, you need to treat the dogs according to their social hierarchy status. For many people this is difficult since our human nature is more often inclined to “defend the underdog”. But you have to tell yourself you are not dealing with humans here but with dogs. And the more you treat them according to their own “rules”, according to the hierarchy they know and understand, the more easy and fast everything will be resolved. Si (for example) if Sparky is walking in front of Grovers crate and Grover growls and snarls at Sparky, you should not look at it with “human eyes” (ohhhhh that bad Grover, Sparky wasn’t doing a thing, he just wanted to pass the crate) but look at it with “dogs eyes” (That darn Sparky, invading the territory of Grover, what is he thinking! Grover is so right to put him in his place)

Once you learn to view things that way and act accordingly, that’s half the battle ;)

You need to know a gew other things. If there is a tense situation or even some growling or worse, a fight, if the submissive one surrenders, the dominant one should stop immediately. If the dominant one doesn’t stop right away, you need to intervene and make the dominant one stop. (after all, you are dominant over the dominant dog) If neither of the dogs is backing up or surrendering, you have to break them up as well since otherwise there could be serious injury. Because even in fighting, there are “rules” that both dogs need to follow.

What you described earlier (“An hour later, Grover was on the sofa again and Sparky walked by. There was some growling but it only lasted a very few minutes and Sparky walked away and went back under the coffee table and Grover stayed on the sofa”), is the “perfect” situation. It’s mainly through body posture, facial expressions and sounds, that they are communicating. And if you start to treat them according to the new hierarchy rules, I hope things will return to (a new) normal soon.

If you have any questions, if you are not sure about something I said or if you're not feeling comfortable with anything at all, please let me know :) Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[addy]

Sas always nails it, Carroll. You might print out Nothing in Life for Free for dogs and reestablish those basic rules to reinforce you are in control. I don't let my dogs play with each others toys either. They adjusted to that just fine. I don't have valuable chew bones that might provoke a fight either.

When the two girls at work were fighting, once I got our boss to stop punishing the dominant new dog and support her instead, it helped. I also worked on the dogs saying "Please" for everything. It took awhile but all is peaceful now.

Feeding Grover away form the other dogs is helping cause tension. I still think classic conditioning can also help Grover feel better in his crate when Sparky is around but that could come later.

Hugs,
Addy

P.S. Jean Donaldson is my favorite animal behaviorist along with Ali Brown and Pat Miller. They have wonderful books to read. Probably Jean Donaldon's Cultural Clash is my absolute eye opening favorite.

[SasAndYunah]

Addy...but also Carrol :-)

My absolute favorite is Turid Rugaas, a Norwegian lady who is world famous especially for her knowledge about canine bodylanguage. Her book on "calming signals" is absolutely wonderful and will teach you a lot about canine bodylanguage and the calming signals they use to avoid conflicts, fights and/or stress.

About the classic conditioning for Grover regarding his crate (and Sparky being around), from what I understand, in this particular situation it is part of the social status issues between Grover and Sparky. Grover using his crate to tell Sparky that his crate is his territory and that Sparky has no business invading his territory. (not just the crate itself but also some space around it) And in that case, trying to get Grover to accept Sparky near his crate would only be counterproductive, provoking fights. Once the social status is resolved, the "crate issue" should resolve as well :) If there were no other issues, then trying to condition Grover to accept Sparky near his crate would be a good idea but since it is a part of a bigger issue, the bigger issue needs resolving first.

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks so much. ladies!
Sas - Wow!! I certainly see things differently. I now realize that Grover is not the bad dog and Sparky is not really the underdog. This is just part of a natural life cycle for dogs.
Something else I realized: here we thought Grover was the aggressor but, now, I think it was Sparky because it was Sparky who came into the room and stared at Grover in his crate. I guess Grover was just reacting.
I was feeding Grover separately because I thought he would eat better alone. Now I see the mistake. He needs to be with the others so he can be "king" and not alone in some room like a second class citizen.
We will make a definite effort to attend to Grover first, even to putting on his leash first.
I will get over the guilty feeling regarding Sparking by just giving him some extra cuddles. He would probably prefer that to having his leash put on first, anyway.:D
If they have these disagreements, I will let them work it out unless it starts to escalate.
And you are right, Sas, Grover does protect the area around his crate.
The crates are in the same room. Should I separate them?
It's interesting that they will share the little doggy crates in the laundry room to sleep in during the day but not the crates!`
Thanks, again, ladies. I guess I have my work cut out for me. But, it sure is interesting!Love to you both,
Carrol (and a growl, snap, snap from Grover and Sparky;))

[SasAndYunah]

I am truly happy that I could help make things more clear for you, Carrol :) Most owners, in a simular situation, would "blame" Grover, saying or thinking he is a bad dog. Where in fact, Grover is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. It's a natural process that a younger, more healthy and stronger dog, needs to take the place of the previous more dominant one. The pack needs a strong, young and healthy leader to survive :) These instincts are so strongly imbedded that even centuries of domestication didn't fade these instincts out. So, Grover is being a perfectly, healthy and sound dog :)

This is why I always try to make people treat their dogs more as dogs :p And by the way, "treating dogs more as dogs" doesn't equal "treating them bad", wich some people seem to think unfortunately. It merely means that we respect and consider where they came from, their background, how their instincts work and let them be the dogs that they are and thus create mentally healthier and happier dogs :) All my dogs have always slept on my bed, for example. But, they would and will never jump on the bed without my invitation. They know it's my bed, my territory, and entering my territory (since I am the packleader) without an invitation is a no no...and so they just don't. But of course, I invite them every night on the bed (into my territory) and we sleep together. There's the differance. Dogs that are allowed to jump on the bed (as an example but goes for other things as well) without an invitation first and dogs that respect the boundaries and territory of their packleader and still sleep on the bed every night, but only after an invite. In both scenario's the dog is sleeping on the bed...but the difference is huge :)

By the way, you wrote "It's interesting that they will share the little doggy crates in the laundry room to sleep in during the day..." Are they alone during that time? Because if that is when you are both off to work for example, and they can share then, it would be a typical example of the dogs being able to sort things out amongst themselves but the "trouble" starts when the owner(s) is/are pressent. And that's most often due to the owners not treating the dogs according to their social status and therefore they (the owners) will create (unwillingly) the turmoil, stress and fights. Without the owners pressent, dogs will act according to their socoal status. Once the owner gets home, the owner treats the dogs not according to their social status and thus the dogs (the dominant one) will feel compelled to act. Not sure if this is the case but it would be a schoolbook example of how these things can develop :)

Sas en Yunah :)

[addy]

My absolute favorite is Turid Rugaas, a Norwegian lady who is world famous especially for her knowledge about canine bodylanguage. Her book on "calming signals" is absolutely wonderful and will teach you a lot about canine bodylanguage and the calming signals they use to avoid conflicts, fights and/or stress.

I have that book too and I love it as well!!!!!!! I use her examples of calming signals all the time. I think I read that book six times:D

But it was after I read Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash" my eyes were really opened wide. I have "Oh Behave" too.

And let's not forget Sonja Yin is it? and her work with vets to help them understand dog behavior at the vets. She has a wonderful video.

Sas, your knowledge amazes me. You are always right on!!!!!

Hugs,
Addy

[SasAndYunah]

As a short, extra explaination, when I speak of "the dominant one" I do not neccesarily mean the dominant one over the entire pack. In this case the "dominant" one refers to the dominant one in the relationship between Grover and Sparky :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[SasAndYunah]

Addy, thanks! :) I am more oriented at european behaviorists but will see if I can find some books of either one of the ladies you mentioned...always interesting to read how others think and feel. But yes, Turid's calming signals are the best...and also very useable in every day situations for "ordinary" people :) My Yunah, for example, is incredably sensitive. I can accidently scare her with my behaviour. If I sing out loud, for example, she becomes highly insecure, thinking I am yelling at her (can you imagine how I sound when I sing :D) I will resolve this by yawning very visibly and she will setlle down... Gotta love those calming signals ;) (not neccesarilly my singing though, hahaha...!)

Sas and Yunah ;)

[Bichonluver3]

Sas, you are TOO funny:D!
Have YOU thought about writing your own book? Probably, from all the help you have given in this forum, you would have enough material. Just think of all the humans you could educate in one shot. I will be first in line for a copy:D

[Bichonluver3]

I do believe you are absolutely correct when you say our presence iis a factor. They can stay in a room all day together with no problems.

[SasAndYunah]

Actually Carrol,
I am thinking of writing a book..but not about behaviour :) I'm thinking of writing a children's book about service dogs since service dogs in my country are not a well known phenomena :) Something like "Yunah's first day in school" about a child and her (or his) service dog going to school. That's just not happening here, yet... Or "Yunah goes to the hospital" and all kinds of other situations in wich one can encounter service dogs :) I am currently trying to find someone that could make some drawings...and of course the drawings have to resemble my Yunah :D

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Great idea, Sas. This would sell in the US also because these books are just beginning to appear. Although I am a nurse & lawyer by training, my retirement job is as a Children's librarian at our local library. I will help in any way I can.
Oh, BTW, from left to right in the opicture is Chloe (the smallest), Grover and Sparky.

[SasAndYunah]

Thanks Carrol, will surely keep it in mind :)

Please keep me updated on how things are developping at your home between Grover and Sparky...

All our best,

Sas and Yunah :)

[CarolW]

Theories of dominance and submission among dogs in a family have largely been debunked over the last decade in particular. Salient books - Dogs, by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, all works of Turid Rugaas (good call there). Pat Miller has useful ideas for teaching dogs. So does Patricia McConnell.

I don't think I'm allowed to post links, especially not to my own web site, but anybody can pick them up by reading Carrol's thread on the k9diabetes forum.

Lately, behaviorist Alexandra Semyonova, in VERY salty style, has dug deep into problems caused by remaining myths about dominance and submission among dogs in a "family." Gotta take some of her stuff with a grain of salt, but most of it is heart-breakingly and clearly accurate.

She often cites Coppingers, and also Turid Rugaas.

The trick with dogs in a human family is, this is a BLENDED family for dogs. (Apart from dogs bred by a breeder.)

It turns out that if we think in terms of meeting all a dog's real needs, the dominance model simply falls away, as being unnecessary. Also, that CAN affect decisions about various aspects of what we do with dogs in the same (human) family.

A lot of ideas that accompany theories of rank, status and hierarchy among dogs are right and useful, but going by models that depend on status can lead us into difficulties. I learned that the hard way, myself. For instance, if I were Carrol, I would feed the dogs separately; it's okay to do that. Sorry to disagree! I mean no offense.

If we look at each dog's real need, I think that's the most useful starting point of all in resolving situations where dogs have fought.

Using the calming signals as taught by Turid Rugaas is of major assistance. Really good call on that one!

I can't stay - don't usually post here, but picked up the reference to this thread from the k9diabetes forum. I've been a member here for at least a couple of years, but very rarely post.

Tue, 8 Mar 2011 18:07:24 (PST)

[Bichonluver3]

I have ordered the Rugaas book along with the others suggested by Sas, Addy and CarolW. I think they will be an opener for me - lots of reading ahead:eek:

[SasAndYunah]

Hi CarolW,

that's interesting. I would be curious to learn how this would translate into real life situations. Could you take Carrol's situation and explain how you would advise her and why (what's the reason from canine behaviour point of view). For example, why would you feed the dogs seperately and how would you handle the issues between Sparky and Grover? And how would you explain the issues between Sparky and Grover? You dont seem to agree it's a social status issue ("...myths about dominance and submission among dogs in a "family".... and ..."the dominance model simply falls away, as being unnecessary") so I would love to learn how you view it. Looking forward to learn more,

Saskia and Yunah :)

ps Carrol I hope you don't mind, sort of hijacking your thread? But the more we learn and understand, the better...I think :) And after all, it's "everything else" ;)

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Sas!
I don't mind at all. I think it is great you guys are getting together. I hope others jump in. We will all benefit.
I'm anxiously awaiting the next "chapter" in the on-going saga of dog and man! :)
Carrol

[addy]

I would be interested in reading that point of view but just from viewing my own dogs and the pack at my office, there is definitely a hierarchy at work that causes trouble if you ignore it and I don't see how separating dogs will help.:confused:

Are you writing about the studies done on wolves? I remember reading about a study about wolves and how it related to Cesar Milan, I think, if it remember correctly and I admit I may not.:rolleyes:

I don't think there is a one size fits all for training our pups. You take those methods that work for you and that you are comfortable with using (IMPORTANT it is a fit) and don't consider the rest.

I too don't see the point in feeding Grover alone.

I now have some more reading to do on my list and I still have not finished "Inside a Dog" yet:rolleyes::rolleyes:;)

Hugs,
Addy

[SasAndYunah]

Oh Carrol, I almost forgot about the chewing... :D Have you ever tried Nylabone? My Sogno was a fanatic chewer who would destroy any chewtoy. But the Nylabones (http://www.nylabone.com/) were perfect for him. Perhaps something for you as well?

Sas and Yunah :)

[SasAndYunah]

Oops, "Perhaps something for you as well?"...that sounds weird, doesn't it :D I do mean, of course, maybe something you could try with Grover :)

Sas and Yunah ;)

[CarolW]

I don't think it's a hijack, as theory often underlies our decisions about how to manage difficult situations.

In general, I suggest feeding dogs apart from each other, to avoid any possible problems with dogs fearing losses of their food. Dogs need to eat in peace.

I see the problems between Sparky and Grover as very possibly originating with Grover's need for a lot of protected space for himself. He seems very insecure with other dogs in the first place, especially if they are approaching his personal space. Semyonova is very good on this - explains it well; illustrates it. She also has a paper on "Self-Organizing Systems" or something like that (on her web site, non-linear dogs). I tend to feel those explanations aren't really necessary, but they ARE quite enlightening, all the same, and do show the importance of personal space to dogs, especially to those suffering from insecurity.

If Grover is in his crate, he can't escape any approach from another dog. Pretty well the same if he's under the bed. At 2, now 3 years old, his hormones should be quite stable, but his history suggests discomfort with the approach of dogs with whom he doesn't necessarily feel safe.

The torn eyelid was apparently accidental - though dogs have great control of their teeth - if the other dog moves, full control may be lost. Also, there are likely genetic factors involved - Grover is a Maltese/Poodle.

So I believe probably two or three elements will help the most. Watching out for what each dog needs in the way of protected space is one of those elements. Need to facilitate each dog feeling safe - that's the primary consideration. Also, learning the canine calming signals helps immensely; I've used them to excellent effect, many times, with my two terriers, now at the Bridge. My new dog, Camellia, appears unresponsive to calming signals when we're out walking; likely SHE does not feel safe when she sees other dogs. Most of HER problems are probably from experience, rather than genetics, as she seems quite typical Havanese otherwise.

It can take a lot of brain-wracking, and sometimes, experimenting, to work out how to manage space for the dogs in a (blended) family.

Recognizing that dogs care about their real needs being met (and sometimes, wants as well), and watching as we meet the needs, we can see that dogs behave well when we succeed in meeting their needs (and sometimes, wants, though we don't have to meet all their wants).

There's always another interpretation besides the dominance model that is possible with dogs. In this instance, I'm suggesting Coppinger, Rugaas, and Semyonova as useful sources to help us understand dogs - on DOG terms. I believe the dominance model fails to jibe with DOG terms; it's not a power-struggle they're engaged in. If we can look underneath that, to see what NEEDS they are trying to achieve the meeting of (sorry for awkward phrasing there), we can begin to see on dog-terms. And there are many times when using a calming signal seems magically to disperse what might otherwise have become a battle of some sort.

Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:14:08 (PST)

[Bichonluver3]

Books by Rugaas & Donaldson arrived today. Had a chance to flip through one before heading to work.
This is a new territory with new rules and I will have to learn them.
Grover was a "street stray" when caught by animal control.
He was approx 1 year old (no idea how long on the street)
He was in a tiny upper cage in a kill shelter and was "out of time", due to be euthanized when taken by a local rescue.
I think he was lost as he is very loving, an expert at agility (without any training, very smart, and great with other animals and people. However, he is really attached to my husband (who thinks Grover is a person and understanda English!) but is very "needy" with all of us. He is jealous of attention given to Sparky and will wheedle his way in so the pats land on him!

[addy]

Carrol, you try things, see what works and what does not. It is not absolute for each dog.

If Grover needs space you can feed him in the same room with the other dogs just figure out what that space may be.

Look, I walk Zoe down the street and she sees a dog at 20 feet and does not react. She then sees another dog at 10 feet and reacts. My job is not to always keep her 10 feet away from dogs. It is my job to change the way she feels about other dogs so she can allow them closer.

When I brought Koko home I spent time visiting him with Zoe and feeding them both and slowly introducing them to each other. When I could have them within 3 feet of ear other and be happy and calm I then took them together for a walk. First thing Zoe did on the walk was to hump Koko. Now that was certainly not sexual. It was a clear signal to Koko "Hey, I am in charge". He submitted and they were fine. Before I brought Koko in the house, I picked up all toys and I again introduce the dogs outside of the house. We then all went for a walk. Only after that, did I bring both dogs inside, allowing Zoe in first. There was no problem.

I still support Zoe in her "I rule the roost" but I also allow Koko some firsts and so does Zoe.

It does not have to be "BY THE BOOK" but hopefully reading the books will give you perspectives.

AND FYI- calming signals really do work. I yawn, blink eyes and tongue flick and Zoe knows.:D

Have fun reading. Training is always supposed to be "fun"

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Love ya', too Addy! thanks for popping in. I always enjoy reading your posts.

[AlisonandMia]

I feed my dogs separately, together. By this I mean they are fed in their crates which are next door to one another. They see me coming with the food and this is their cue to get themselves into their crates and wait. I then give them their bowls and shut them in until they are finished.

Although their crates are almost touching I do have a visual barrier so they each have some privacy while eating and their own space generally when enclosed. They get bones and kongs the same way.

We have a big dog/little dog situation (and the big dog (Australian Cattle Dog/GSD mix) is inherently quite an aggressive individual) and I sure wouldn't want any outburst of aggression for this reason! I think it is a case of "good fences make good neighbors".

Mealtimes are stress free for everyone this way.

Alison

[SasAndYunah]

It’s interesting that we don’t seem to differ that much in our views. If someone has an insecure dog, I would definitely advice to give that dog space. I remember someone on this board had a dog who was insecure around children and I told her to make sure she kept children at a safe distance… along with advice on how to slowly get the dog used to children and to instruct children how to behave around the dog, etc. So I see no difference there. With a huge size difference or a huge temperament difference or a huge difference in health situations, you of course advise different then where the dogs are more close on those aspects. A smaller dog is no competition for a dog three times it’s size. But also in “same size dogs” there can be situations in which one is no competition to the other. Behaviour isn’t one size fits all. So also there we agree. I have been using Turid Rugaas’s calming signals for almost 15 years now so needless to say I’m a huge fan of communicating to dogs in their own language.

I think the thing we differ mostly on is the hierarchy… And if I look around me, all living creatures that live in groups, have some form of social ranking, social structure system or some sort of dominance hierarchy or whatever you want to call it. Whether it’s ants, bees, chimp or humans they all can only function if they live by certain rules. And these rules aren’t static…they change with different situations. If my boss wants me to start my job at 07.00 o’clock, I better show up at 7 o’clock, after all, he’s my boss. If my child is supposed to be home at midnight, it better be home at midnight…My position changes, depending on who I deal with and what my “status” is in connection to that person. Okay, these are silly examples but illustrative of how social status or hierarchy is variable. Sometimes I think it’s the words that will have negative meanings to people. Like, for example, I am disabled and will call it that as well. But there are people that find the word disabled very offensive and they feel we should say “physically challenged” or something similar. It seems like the words “hierarchy”, dominance” or “packleader” hold that same sensitivity to some people. Those words equal the training- and behaviour methods used in the 60’s and 70‘s. Methods that used “physical force to make dogs surrender” like putting dogs on their backs. Where every problem was handled by using dominating techniques. “Is your dog insecure, roll it on his back, let him know you’re the packleader and he will respect your leading skills and loose his insecurity”. But these techniques do not teach dogs anything, they only install fear into the dogs and thankfully were long abbandonded by most (some exceptions)

The needs and wants, you talk about, they absolutely apply to insecure or fearfull dogs. But in mentally healthy and stable dogs…I think it’s not always about needs or wants. For example, my own dog, Yunah, a pretty secure and stable dog. Whenever she is at the doggy playground, and a male is trying to hump a female, she will race towards them, grab the male in it’s neck, pull him off of the female and throw him on his back…:eek: And this even in the case where the male is three times her size. I cannot explain that behaviour from a “need or want” perspective. I can however, pretty clearly, explain that behaviour from the “social status” perspective. My Yunah is a high ranked female and she will not allow males to mate with lower ranked females. These are natures rules (instinct)…in order to make sure the species will continue. Only the most healthy and most strong individuals are supposed to mate to ensure strong and healthy babies and thus keeping the species alive. So, eventhough the needs and want principle certainly applies to certain situations, it’s my believe that the social status principle also has a place in certain situations.

It’s my personal believe that something so strong as “nature” (nature’s call) cannot be disregarded. The question whether dogs can be compared with wolves or not, is not even relevant, if you ask me. It’s pretty safe to assume that humans are not descending from wolves…right? Still, if you show a group of men pictures of a group of females and one of those females (on the pictures) is ovulating (without the men knowing about this), they will pick the ovulating female as most attractive. And mind you, they took an equally attractive group of females. Not, for example one picture of Jennifer Lopez and then 9 of me, because in that case Jennifer would have won without a doubt, ovulating or not :D But even in humans, who are without a doubt the most domesticated group of animals on this planet, instinct (nature) still plays a huge role (and we don’t even recognize it) So why would that be any different for dogs, wolves, apes, and even ants? Disregarding nature (and therefore instincts) to me sounds wrong…just as disregarding anything else would be. It’s never just one perspective, its always a combination of several different perspectives.

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Sas!
Makes sense to me. In reading the posts, it seems negativity is found associated with "hierarchy" or "social order" because it has, for so long, been attached to the notion of dominance, submission, force and fear instead of recognizing strength and less strength (not even weakness) in various situations. I must obey President Obama's rules but I am not afraid of him. I just respect him and the social order in my country based on our laws. As humans, for the most part, we like to diffuse unpleasant situations by using our own "calming signals".
I agree, I think everyone here is of the same mindset, basically, just calling things by different names. Perhaps one of the basic real needs and wants is to have a social order in which each individual has a place and feels safe (Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, for example).
I read the Rugaas book last night. The information was eye-opening. However, she does not discuss how to put all of this into practice. Any recommendations?
BTW, Sas, I think you are WAY more beautiful than Jennifer Lopez. If you don't believe me, just ask Yunah:D
Love, Carrol

[SasAndYunah]

Ha! Don't let Jennifer Lopez hear that :p And Yunah? Yunah just wishes I could sing like Jennifer Lopez :D

"However, she does not discuss how to put all of this into practice. Any recommendations?"

What exactly are you talking about? What is it you want to put into practice? :) Take your time thinking about it...because for now I am off to bed, so no replies pretty soon ;)

Sas and Yunah :)

[addy]

Hint from Addy,

Now that you know what the calming signals are, observe your pups. When and how do they use the calming signals?;)

Sas, as always, nails it and as usual very articulately.:) Her discussion I mean in the previous threads before Jennifer Lopez:D:D:D

I feed Zoe in a corner in the kitchen facing a wall. Koko eats in his crate about 10 feet away with the door open, only because I can't have Zoe getting at his food. When they have snack time, they are very cute and they each save a bit on their plates and then switch plates at the end. At that time they are maybe 2 feet a part.

Three dogs verses two dogs do change the dynamics to some degree. I see that at work.

The discussions have been fun and informative. Thanks!!!!

Carrol, how are the pups?

Love ya,
Addy

[lulusmom]

I should take a picture of my crew at feeding time. I have eight dogs in the house and feeding time is oddly orderly. It's about the only time things are orderly. I put the food bowls down in the same order every day and everybody knows where they fall in that order and line up side by side accordingly. It doesn't take very long for the new fosters to catch on and figure out where they need to stand.

[Bichonluver3]

OMG, 8 dogs. You must be the master of calm:D

The pups have been fine. we had a little incident of barking while Grover was under the bed today but it didn't amount to much (Sparky couldn't get under the bed, anyway, with his e-collar). I put Sparky on the bed and he was happy and went to sleep.

Grover is a jumper - a playful jumper- but a jumper all the same. When i took them for their non-anesthetic dental yesterday, Grover jumped up when he saw the leashes. I turned my back on him. The little devil walked around so he was in front of me and jumped again. I again turned my back. He again walked around to face me but no more jumping! Okay, is this good or what:rolleyes:

By putting into practice, I mean if, for example, if Grover is under the bed, growling and snapping at Sparky and Sparky is in his face, how do I intervene without getting nipped?

Grover usually eats in another room from tghe other 2 only because I want to eat in peace. However, this morning, he decided he wanted to eat in the same area as the others but at a distance and out of Sparky's sight. He just stayed planted to that spot until I put his dish there.

[SasAndYunah]

Carrol.....jippie for turning your back at Grover and for Grover to stop jumping :D You took a wonderful first step!

On to Grover under the bed. If I were you, I would block the "under the bed area". Let me try and explain this. There are already several places where this Grover - Sparky thing happens. In and around Grover's crate, under the coffeetable, when Grover is on the couch and Sparky on the floor, etc. And under the bed is another one of those places. In any situation with dogs, preventing is always a good thing. However, there are quite a few situations in wich preventing is not realistic. But in my mind, you may think differently though, blocking the "under the bed" area with for example some cardboard boxes, is not such a big deal, It's the bedroom, not the livingroom where you will have guests and want the room to look nice :) It will make for one less "battle ground" and that can be very helpfull in creating more space/rooms/areas where there are no provoking circumstances. So first, give this idea a thought and if you decide against it, I will deal with the issue again :) It's my personal believe we need to set up our dogs to succeed and not to fail. By taking away one of the "battle grounds" (the under the bed area) there will be one less situation in which Grover can challenge Sparky. Or, one more area where Grover can be "good"... it's how you put it ;)

About the eating. I personally think that Grover should eat with the others and of course he (or the others) should not eat under stress. So the clue is, to find a "safe" distance... With safe distance I mean a distance that doesn't provoke any reaction. Make sure they are all calm before you give them their actual food. Make them sit and only then, give them their food. What you could do in terms of calming signals is yawn a lot and loud :D And make the yawning visible...don't be polite and put your hand in front of your wide open mouth :D

And as a general comment, start with just 2 calming signals. Use, as you have done, the turning your back in stuations between one of the dogs and yourself and use the yawning in situations where there is tension between the dogs. Get used to using them step by step, don't start using too many at once. Familiarise yourself with the signals, and as Addy already said, watch your dogs interact and see if you can pick up on the signals they use and try to figure out why a certain dog used a certain signal. They are your best teachers :)

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Sas!
I can't believe the back turning worked out!! Don't you just love it when a plan comes together???
I have noticed that the two signals that I see most ofter are the head turning and turning to the side. I am sure there are lots I don't see and will watch carefully for them.
I will try blocking under the bed - makes sense.
I am also trying to get them to eat in the same area but at a distance.
Sparky is having a hard time at meal times. He has to sniff around to find his dish. I don't know if it is the e-collar or if he has lost his sight this week - his eyes look cloudy to me:(
I really enjoy reading your posts and I am now reading Culture Clash - what a book!
Love,
Carrol

[addy]

I am now reading Culture Clash - what a book!

Did you read Chapter Four yet?

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Not yet, Addy - tonight!!
Love ya, too!
PS Hectic day. Tsunami in Japan. My helicopter pilot Navy son is in Guam. His buddy just left for Japan and Josh says they are all geared up and ready to go.

[addy]

Oh dear, I hope everything is okay with your son. I have been watching the news and it is dreadful and the news just keeps getting worse.

Take care dear friend. I will be saying prayers.

Love,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks, Addy, for your kind thoughts. He is my baby (turned 25 on Valentine's Day) and has always been the "baby" of his squadron. So...I guess he will always be my baby:D
Had an episode with the boys last night growling because Grover had his chew bone. Sparky didn't want it, he just didn't want Sparky to have it! Well, they were nose to nose. I tried "splitting up" but that didn't work so I just picked up the chew bone and threw it. End of story. I don't know if Rugaas would approve. maybe I reinforced the growling for Grover by seemingly to make it a playtime????
Love & hugs,
Carrol

[addy]

A dog's rule is possession is 9/10th's of the law;).

A few things come to mind, some times a loud brrrupp noise may interrupt the two long enough for you to get their attention and pick up the chew bone. Another is there something more valuable to them than a chew bone? In our case, a small piece of cooked turkey or chicken is a high reward and they know the word. So I might call, oh look, CHICKEN and they will stop arguing and come running to me. I would then make them sit or down or target or something and then give them the reward. I do not consider that bribery because I asked them to do something before giving it.;);):D

Otherwise, you might have to forgo high value chew toys laying around. I give bully sticks but I make sure both dogs have one to chew and then I decide when to take them away.

I think the more "Nothing In Life For Free" kind of rules you do, the more control of difussing you have. There will always be arguments of some kind. Sibling rivalry, etc. Distracting Sparky with something he likes may take the focus off Grover and get Sparky to focus on something else and forget about it.

On a few occassions i have to tell Zoe very firmly "brrrrup, Koko's TOY' and I give a direct stare. A direct stare is a challenge, but she backs down. Not sure if it is right thing to do but it works for me.

See what Sas says.

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Now, I am scared that Sparky is losing or has lost his sight:(

What would i use as calming signals? I am sure the sight problems are my fault because I didn't get the diet sorted out fast enough.:(

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Carrol,

whatever is going on with Sparky's eyes sure isn't because of you, don't beat yourself up. If it is due to his diet, there's nothing you could have done differently. Unfortunately things don't go faster then they go. All we can do is try our best and if someone is trying their hardest, it's you!

About last nights growling incident...from your description I am not too clear on what happened. "Grover had his chew bone. Sparky didn't want it, he just didn't want Sparky to have it! Well, they were nose to nose".

So Grover had a chew bone... and then what happened? Did Sparky go to Grover and start growling? Or was Grover growling? Also "so I just picked up the chew bone and threw it" wasn't quite clear to me. Do you mean you threw the bone away...as if you would throw a ball away in a game of fetch? Or did you put it away, out of reach for everyone? So, in order to have a better understandig of that situation I need more details. However, in general, I would not let toys laying around for them, at this particular time. Because all it will do is provoke these kinds of situations. The social status issues wil mostly occur over certain spaces, toys, food and attention. So in cases where you can avoid those issues, avoidence is best. (like closing up the under the bed space, not having toys laying around, etc)

I'm not sure how much excercise Grover is getting? If for example he goes out just as much or as often as Sparky, I can imagine that Grover needs a bit more. So perhaps it's possible to take Grover for some extra walks or playtime in the garden, all by himself? He's a young, healthy male, he could benefit from some extra excercise...perhaps. (again, not knowing how much he is getting at the moment) Given the age and healthdifference in both, it's quite obvious they both would have different excercise needs :)

Hoping this has helped some. When you can give me more detials, I will answer more detailed in the growling incident last evening.

And again, do not blame yourself, Sparky needs a confident and happy mom to help him through these more difficult stages in his life :)

Hugs,

Sas and Yunah :)

[SasAndYunah]

Carrol, I just read what you wrote on Leslie's thread. Maybe you could try and next time you feed Sparky, remove the e-collar and see if that makes a difference. Dogs really don't have to see to be able to find their food, their nose will tell them where it is. Is it a "clear" e-collar or is it sort of whitish? Some dogs do really bad when they "loose the sight" closely around them due to the e-collar blocking their view. In those cases a clear e-collar, allowing more vision might help. Just a thought,

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Sas!
So glad you popped in - I was "looking" for you.
About last night:

Sparky has never played with toys. Grover always needs to be carrying something around. He has a tough rubber chew bone he loves.

Grover had his chew bone and Sparky came up to him (challenge?)
Grover dropped the bone on the floor and stood over it.

It is hard to know who started the growling since it seemed that both started at the same time. It was a very low growl.
They had their faces very close and I was afraid of Sparky possibly getting hurt again.

I picked up the bone and threw it (as if it was a game) to separate them. Grover went for the bone and Sparky moved on in another direction.

Now, in thinking about it, maybe I was reinforcing this behavior as part of a game and should have picked it up and put it away :rolleyes:(?).

Just now: Grover was eating, Sparky walked by. Grover kept his head down and Sparky just kept on moving.........:D

About Sparky...I just feel so darn responsible because it has been so difficult to sort out the diet/insulin thing to get his sugar into acceptable ranges. Then his surgery and meds have had his sugars so high except this morning when it was 106:eek:

I am at my wits end but am trying to keep it together.
Love,
Carrol

[SasAndYunah]

Carrol, thanks for again a thouroug explaination :) It really sounds as if they are still in this social status "fight". It's unfortunate Sparky doesn't surrender and give up but hey, that's the way it is :) Grover standing up and standing over hs bone clearly indicates he is not allowing Sparky to come near it. But Grover's "dominant" attitude is not making Sparky back down and you are so right, if they are face to face, growling (particularly in that low voice), it's time to intervene because such a situation could escalate pretty quickly and pretty badly. (it would be even better if you could see this situation coming and intervene even before they are nose to nose...but I know, that's hard)

The next time I would pick up the bone and put it away and give it back when you have the possibility to keep a close eye on them. And if you see Sparky walk up to Grover (the bone) you tell him "no...leave it". This way you reinforce what Grover is trying to tell Sparky :) And then yawn and yawn and yawn....telling Sparky "it's alright, no need to stress over me saying "no"..."

I know how bad you must feel about Sparky and everything happening to him, I do understand. And how helpless it feels when you feel you cannot help them the way you wished you could... You can recognize and acknowledge those feelings but understand as well that those legitemate feelings have nothing to do with "guilt". So feel sad or lost or helpless...(all very reasonable feelings) but don't feel guilty (not a reasonable feeling at all!) Guilt is a very draining emotion, more so then sadness for example. And since you have absolutely no reason at all to feel guilty, chase the guilt away, if you have to. If it means that you have to tell yourself "Guilt, just go away, I have no place for you in myself" then that's what you do :) (sounds so crazy but it does work) You are such a strong and loving woman, I'm sure you can scare any feeling of guilt right out of the door ;)

All my best,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[addy]

I am sorry you have so much on your plate right now. If there is something wrong with Sparky's sight other than the Elizabethian collar, it sure is not your fault so lock that guilt up in a drawer and through away the key.:)

I used to tense up and hold my breath when Zoe would go out to poo. I did not realize I was making her think something was wrong when she pooed but I was. Now I make sure I plant a smile on my face and BREATHE and tell her good job no matter how bad her poo is.

Point is, we don't sometimes realize the signals we are sending to our pups. Is it possible, I wonder, if you are feeling quilty and worried about Sparky is that being comunicated somehow to Sparky and Grover and how would that affect them? Maybe Sas knows.

I don't want to stress you out even more. :o:( I just know I have to watch my moods with Zoe and it is hard. I try to have melt downs in the car on my way home from work so I am calm when I get home.:eek::rolleyes:

Zoe rules the roost here and Koko accepts it but once in awhile he will stand his ground with her. So far when he has, she backs off. It does not happen often and I always hear and am close to intervene if I need to call her away.

I swear, it's like having a bunch of two years olds:rolleyes::rolleyes: with distractions, time outs, etc.:p:p:p

Come here and vent, we have good listening skills and warm hugs.

Love you and it will get better.

Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Carrol,

This has been fun reading lately! :D I love hearing Saskia talk about behaviors and how to work with our babies!

About Sparky's sight...have you removed the collar to see if that was causing some or all of his apparent vision problems? It could be that he is gradually losing his vision and adding the collar just made things even fuzzier for him. I think I would try letting him go without the collar as much as you can - when you can watch him, of course, and see if he acts more like his old self.

I haven't had experience with a pup going through the process of losing their sight - mine came to me already blind. There are so many things that can cause our babies to lose their sight, and some happen suddenly. I just really don't think you have had any bearing whatsoever if he is indeed going blind. You have done everything humanly possible to tackle his problems as quickly as possible. So, NO GUILT!!! Ok?

Let me know how Sparky is doing!
Hugs,
Leslie

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks, Sas, Addy & Leslie,

You guys are the best!!

It is hard not to feel at least a little responsible for the situation when Sparky depends on me to keep him well.

However, I am taking a lot of deep breaths and giving myself a good kick in the butt to get going on the things I can control. I have fenced off the pool area so he cannot get into trouble there. The vet told me not to change his diet until he is recovered from the surgery and the meds are out of his system.

I am checking his blood sugar before each meal and 2hrs after insulin so I will have some idea of where he is at.

I will do a glucose curve on Friday and then sit down and work out a game plan.

Sas - You are right, again, about the removal of the chew bone. As soon as I threw it, I knew I had goofed - hindsight is such a wonderful thing :). Since the boys are still having differences, maybe I should sit down with them and have "family meeting". I'll just tell them that the next one to start an argument gets to take the trash out for a month:D

Addy - Chapter 4 was fabulous. Who would have guessed? I hope I can remember all this stuff:eek:

Leslie - Thanks for being here. I will update you on how Sparky reacts with no collar as he starts to move around. I agree, having Sas' input re behavior has helped tremendously. I don't think she realizes how many people she has helped while posting here. Maybe we should give her a forum of her own ;) How about calling it "Sas Says" :rolleyes: Sas, are you listening???!!!:D

Love and hugs to all of you.
Carrol

[addy]

Hi Carrol,

Just wondering what happened at the vets today with our little Sparky.

Hoping everything is okay dear friend.

Love,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Here is the story on Sparky:

After his surgery on Mar 3 to repair the lacerated eyelid, I was checking his sutures and noticed Sparky had a bluish gray haze over both eyes.

I took the dogs for their non-anesthetic dental last Wed. and was concerned so asked a vet tech to take a look and tell me what she thought. I believed that something was wrong b ut she told me that it would wait for the following Thursday (this coming Thursday) when Sparky was to have his sutures removed. She said the doctor would check the eyes then.

By Sat. I was freaking out as Sparky was bumping into things and missing things even when I removed his e-collar. I KNEW something was wrong. I called the vet's. Another one of the vets was there. He said it could wait. I couldn't get anyone to believe me.

Sat evening I called the emergency clinic. They said it was not an emergency and could wait. By this time I was getting angry.

I called the vet's first thing this morning as I knew my vet would be there. I left a message for him to call me. The girl said "Is it about the eyes?" I said "YES". She said "Oh, I was just going to give the doctor the message from Sat.

I left for work. My husband was home. The girl called back to say "The doctor wants to see Sparky at 2:30 this afternoon" (Duh). Sparky went for the appointment with my husband.

The vet came over to my work. He was ANGRY. He said they all went against policy that said all eyes and ears were emergencies. He apparently ripped a strip off the hospital manager etc.

Here's the bottom line:

Mild to moderate uveitis in both eyes secondary to cataracts.

He believes Sparky has lost 20-30% of his vision.

Interocular pressure close to normal range, 1 eye a bit below normal. I am to take Sparky to the original appointment on Thursday, even though he removed the sutures today so he can check pressure again.

Sparky is to continue on the Ocu-GLO

He gets Flurbiprofen 1 drop to each eye, every 12 hours.

At least now we know where we are at. But, boy, was that vet mad!!!!!

[addy]

Unbelievable, Carrol, wow, what is the prognosis, will his eye be okay?

Just shows how we have to advocate for our pups, sometimes strongly. You suspected something wrong, you know your dog.

Poor Sparky. What a week for the little guy.

Hoping this week goes more smoothly for you and the pups.

Love,

Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy, my dear friend!

Yes, it has been a really rough week for my Sparky. The poor little guy just stands in the hall or goes and sits by the carpet inside the front door. Thank goodness he is eating.

No, his eyes will not improve. This is only the beginning. We are hoping that, with the drops treating the inflammation and the Ocu-GLO nourishing the eyes, we can hold onto whatever little sight he has for as long as we can.

You know what? Life stinks :(. If I could have lived this last week in Sparky's place, I would have done it. He is such a sweet, loving guy who, right now, is totally lost (as is his Mom & Dad).
Things can only can get better. Oh, i better not say that. I said it before and look what happened.

Thanks, again for checking in on us. We really need your support.
Love you bunches,
Carrol
PS With all my weeping and wailing, I have neglected to ask about little Zoe!!!! How are the meds going?

[Bichonluver3]

Well, now my husband is driving me crazy. he keeps saying "We are losing Sparky." " This will shorten his life." etc.
I told him I am under enough stress right now and cannot keep hearing all these comments. I cannot dwell on things I cannot change but rather figure out what I need change to make life livable for Sparky. That is not to say that my heart doesn't break for him but I know worrying about losing him does not help - only positive thoughts will.
SO....anybody with a good comment about all this - I sure need to hear it now!!!

I also need some suggestions:

I have blocked off the pool with a temporary fence until I can figure out what to do.

If I change anything in the house, I will do it now so he can memorize it.
I will put his water and food on a scented (fresh lemon from our tree?) placemat.

I will put down a "textured path to his area to poop and pee so he can follow it.

I will plant a scented flower garden and increase my herb garden so he has a place to enjoy all the smells, even though he can't see the garden

Any other suggestions?

Between Chloe (Cushings), Sparky's cataracts and health issues with my husband and I, I need to get control of all these situations and try to reduce the stress.

Any suggestions are welcom

Please give all your pups a hug and a big smile. I only wish my Sparky could still see mine.

Love,
Carrol

[SasAndYunah]

Oh Carrol,

I am so sorry for you and Sparky. Could the vet tell if the uveitis was Diabetes induced or not? There are many things that can cause uveitis and of course it would be very tempting to attribute the uveitis to the Diabetes (and it will most likely be the cause) But also, because it's so tempting to "blame" an already existing underlying cause, vets sometimes forget to still look for other possible causes. We have seen it happen here, certain conditions being blamed on the Cushings and then in the end, it was something else.

Anyway I also wanted to mention the following. But of course, with a warning. It's not a cure, not an official treatment and you should talk it over with your vet first if you ever decide to try it... But for centuries, Bilberries have been used in folkmedicine to treat eyeproblems. (have a look here (http://www.ageless.co.za/herb-bilberry.htm)) There are some studies done in humans with cataracts with supposedly good outcomes. The thing that worries me most, in this particular case, is that billberries also seem to lower the bloodsugar levels. But I still wanted to let you know about this. It's something to keep in the back of your mind perhaps... Maybe on the diabetes board there are some people who know or have heard about this? Since there's so much more eyeproblems going on there...

All our best,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[lulusmom]

Hi Carrol,

I've lived with special needs dogs most of my life and that includes blind babies. What I learned is that with time, the blind babies overcame their "temporary" disability and the only special need that remained was the same one they had before they went blind.....plain old loving and care that only a mom and dad can give. Us humans are funny when it comes to dealing with our doggie's ailments. In comparison to our dogs, we take their medical issues a lot worse than they do. As a matter of fact, if our dogs could talk, they'd tell us to take a freakin chill pill and quit stressing them out with all the bad vibes.

Dogs may lose their sight but all of their other senses, instinct and intuition are not only still intact but they become heightened with the loss of vision. Sooo, since Sparky can't talk, I'm going to talk for him and tell you and your husband to try to mellow out because he can sense your uneasiness and grief over the loss of his vision. Sparky is still with you so don't grieve for him or feel sorry for him. Focus all of your energy on staying upbeat and helping him adapt to the darkness. Your doing a terrific job of making things easier for Sparky but you can find a lot more helpful information, as well as support, on a blind dog forum. Join one and talk to members who have hands on experience and knowledge. I'm sure that like us, there are many who stay on to pay it forward and help other members adapt to sharing their life with a blind dog. Yes, we need to adapt too and if only we could do it as easily as our dogs. :D

http://www.blinddog.info/msgbd/
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/blinddogs/
http://blinddogs.yuku.com/

I promise you Carrol that if being blind is Sparky's only issue, he will adapt and the same things in life that made him happy before will continue to make him happy. That would be you, Carrol, and the incredible love you have in your heart for him.

Glynda

[Bichonluver3]

"I promise you Carrol that if being blind is Sparky's only issue, he will adapt and the same things in life that made him happy before will continue to make him happy. That would be you, Carrol, and the incredible love you have in your heart for him."

OK...I had a tear over this one. Glynda, you truly are an angel and I will probably rely on your advice for a while, if you don't mind. I just want Sparky to be happy and to live a long life with us. We love him so much and will do anything for him. That was my promise to him when I adopted him - a safe, healthy, happy life. I am one to keep my promises.

"As a matter of fact, if our dogs could talk, they'd tell us to take a freakin chill pill and quit stressing them out with all the bad vibes."

Now, the smile! Thanks for cheering up my morning. I believe that each day will get better. I try to "mellow out" because the vibes I want him to feel are those of the love we feel for him which far outway the "bad vibes" :)

Thank you for the links. I will definitely look at them and anything else you can suggest. You are a real anchor for me. I'm learning about Atypical Cushings. I'm learning about canine diabetes. I will learn about this too.

Sas, thanks for checking in. Will double check with vet re any possible underlying causes. But, he did tell me that purebred Bichon's are prime cause for vision loss and then, compounded by the diabetes, well....here we are. Will also check re the Bilberries. Thanks for your suggestions. I really value your advice.

Lots of love & hugs,
Carrol

[addy]

Glynda said it perfectly. We take it harder than the dogs do when it comes to disabilities. It is hard for us not to so is perfectly understandable why we do.

You are doing all good things and probably touch will be important too, your touch to Sparky.

You know Sas knows Tellington Touch. I bet she could give you some relaxing Touch suggestions to help Sparky ease into things as his sight lessens. And you would feel good too, maybe hubby too could do them.

Once the initial shock of all of this wears off and the fear of the unknown lessens and you all begin to live with it, it may not seem so consuming for your hubby.

Another note, I got worried when I heard the U.S. ships were pulling back from Japan because of the radiation. Is your son on a ship? The news is so bad from Japan. Are you coping okay with that?

Carrol, you have so much to deal with right now, if I can help in any way, please let me know. I mean that.

Give Sparky extra hugs for me. I know he will he all right. HE HAS YOU:D;) And you are pretty darn special:)

Zoe is fine, thanks for asking. She had mucus poos for a few days and she didn't even eat anthing different, so I don't get it.:rolleyes:

Love and extra hugs and kisses to you and the puppies.

Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy!
Luckily, Joshua did not have to go. He has to take his HAC boards and complete his required number of qualify flight hours for HAC and he will be deployed in MAY to Iraq. He says he did not go because time is short and he has so much to do. They sent others who have to pass HAC qualifications but won't be deployed until September so they have more time.
Addy, your being at the end of a post is more help than you can imagine. Keeps me going! :)
Love,
Carrol

[addy]

Hi Carrol,

Just stopping in to send love and hugs to you and the pups and a special hug for Sparky.

Kisses to Grover and Miss Chloe. Did I tell you I almost named Zoe Chloe? But then we decided a Chloe was sweet and patient and Little Miss Zoe was a bit of a mischievous imp.:rolleyes::D;)

Did you ask Sas about some Tellington Touch for Sparky?

Hoping you have a calm, happy day, dear friend.:)

Love,
Addy

P.S. I saw a robin today and it is 60!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bichonluver3]

HAPPY ST PATRICK'S DAY!!!!!!


Maybe things are getting better. My youngest son is a helicopter pilot in the US Navy, stationed in Guam. Here is the email I received today:


-----Original Message-----
From: Robinson, Christopher L LT USN HSC25
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:52 PM
To: M-GU-HSC25 ALL Users
Subject: New HAC


Congratulations to HSC-25's newest Helicopter Aircraft Commander, LTJG
Magder. Give the ol' boy a pat on the back if you see him.

V/r,
LT Robinson


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D

[Bichonluver3]

Hi, Addy, thanks for checking in and the hugs & kisses. You can never have too many of those! A robin?? A robin is good:D I looked out my kitchen window yesterday and saw a duck swimming in our pool.
Sparky's eye pressure was checked at the vet this morning. Pressures in both eyes were 19 & 20. Normal pressure is 20-25. He will need to be on eye drops for the rest of his life:( but he is still a happy little dog.
Must go to forward Josh's email to family & friends.
Love and hugs,
Carrol
PS I still think Chloe & Zoe sounds like a great Vaudeville team!

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Addy,

yes, I already have provided Carrol with some T-Touch info, no worries :)


Carrol, congratulations with you son, the HAC ! :D :D :D

I am, however, a bit confused about Sparky's eyes. To the very best of my knowledge, normal intraoccular pressure in canines runs from 15 to 22 mm Hg and Sparky's number are right where they should be. I personally would consider taking Sparky to an eyespecialist. I saw one with Yunah and was very impressed with all the extra things they can do in comparrison with a gp vet and, of course, all the extra knowledge they have. Does your vet think these numbers are too low or too high? And what are the eyedrops for? I'm just curious and somewhat surprised and would like to understand it better :) Hate to be the one to question this but it doesn't sound right to me somehow. Maybe I am missing something? Maybe your vet uses other measurements and not the mm Hg I am used to?

Anyway, give your sweet and handsome threesome a cuddle from us,

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Sas!
The drops (Flurbiprofen is an NSAID to reduce the inflammation in his eyes. Some of the redness has already gone.
Not sure about the numbers. Whatever they are, he is still in range, thank goodness. Vet was very happy.
I asked the vet if we needed a consult with an opthalmologist and he said not at this point.
He said that if he did need one, he would only send him to Dr. Randy Scagliotti, who he says is the "guru".
I may press him for this..........oh, I'm such a pushy person:D
Thank you for your emails. I have been busy trying to get the house in order while Sparky still has a little sight to give him a head start at mapping. However, I have a few days off work so I will have a chance to read them over again.
Thanks so much for the congrats. Josh worked so hard and the Boards are held before a panel and the it is all oral. He just turned 25 on Valentine's Day. He is the youngest in his squadron. He is off to Iraq in May.
Carrol

[SasAndYunah]

Thanks Carrol for explaining it to me :) In one of your previous posts you wrote: "Interocular pressure close to normal range, 1 eye a bit below normal" and in the post I responded to, you wrote: "Pressures in both eyes were 19 & 20. Normal pressure is 20-25. He will need to be on eye drops for the rest of his life".

So what happened was that I thought your vet figured that an intraoccular pressure of 19 was considered too low and that because of that he needed to be on eyedrops. The mentioning of the eyedrops directly after the number of the intraoccular pressure, made me think that perhaps the drops were related to the pressure. Good to know this is not the case :) Because that had me puzzled as well.... Why give drops when you think the pressure is too low? Drops are given when the pressure is too high. But thanks to your explanation I now understand it :) I have been looking it up and intraoccular pressures between 15 and 22 are indeed the norm.

Josh sounds indeed as a very well deserving young man to have earned that HAC title, congrats again :)

Sas and Yunah :)

[Bichonluver3]

Well we are slowly but surely getting along with life with little (no?) vision. Sparky eagerly goes on his walks. He is learning "careful" (or you'll bump your nose), "this way" (or you'll get left behind), "step up" (or you'll stub your toe) ans "step down" (or that next step will be a doozey).
His collar is off and he is happy to be sleeping back in his crate.
His appetite is back, for the most part.
He can find his way up onto the top of the the couch in 2 different rooms but still won't attempt jumping up on his favorite chair. He now likes to sleep under the coffee table in the TV room.
We get the pool fence in this week, thank goodness.
I am hoping that, as time goes on, he will fully adjust.
I want to get him a vest that tells people he is blind for out on his walks so they do not rush up or startle him. Does anyone have suggestions for a nice one in a lightweight fabric? I also want to get him a flotation vest for when we use the pool. Any ideas on that one?
Hope everyone has a great day. Hug your critters
Love,
Carrol
___________

[addy]

Hi Carrol,


This company has vests and life vests for the pool too. Maybe you could find something here for Sparky. I think about you all every day and glad to hear everyone is adjusting.

http://www.blindpets.com/products/vest.htm

Don't know if I did the link right:o:o:o

Great news about your son!!!!! You must be proud.:)

Zoe and Koko send wags and woofs to Chloe, Sparky and Grover.:D

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks, Addy.
Love ya' too!
Wags & woofs to Zoe:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Carrol,

I considered one of these for Brick:

http://angelvest.homestead.com/

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Leslie!
I was looking at these also. do you know if the hoop comes off?
I don't think there is enough of Brick to attach the vest!:D
Love,
Carrol

[marie adams]

Hi Carrol,

Congrats to your son!!!

I wanted to tell you I know someone who's little beautiful dog has been blind since she was 3 I believe and has no problem navigating around the house with her brother. As far as I know she doesn't know she is blind--haha!! :D

You take it harder than he does--remember they are troopers and nothing phases them--they adapt far better than we do.:):)

Take care and keep thinking good thoughts!!! Give Sparky hugs and kisses!!!

[littleone1]

Hi Carrol,

I hope everything works for Sparky. I'm trying to catch up on threads. I didn't realize that Sparky was having these issues. Bless his heart. Give him extra belly rubs from me.

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks, Terri!
Extra belly rubs back at the Corkster. I haven't been keeping up with threads as I have had my hands full with Sparky. A guy is coming tomorrow about putting a fence around the pool.
How are things at your house?
Love & hugs,
Carrol

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Carrol,

After being with Brick for a bit, I have decided the Angelvest might not help him much. When he comes to a barrier, instead of backing up and trying a different approach, he just bulldozes on ahead, pushing to get through, over, or under the obstacle in his path. So I don't know if the little hoop would deter him. The theory is that when they feel something come in contact with the hoop, the pup will turn away, or at least know that way isn't open to them. I am concerned Brick would interpret the hoop as just something else to push aside in his mission to reach his goal. :p But I may try one for him anyway.

One thing he does need is eye protectors of some sort. I have seen the Doggles and also some mesh "glasses" that look like they would help protect the eyeballs. Brick is giving me GREAT exercise just keeping up with him and turning him away from thorns, brush, limbs, etc that are in his path! And he loves the more wooded areas for some reason. Probably some really good new scents there.

Dr B said he wouldn't develop the sonar like Trink because of the Hydrocephalus, but I'm not sure about that. He is calming down more each day and as he calms, he isn't as spastic in his actions. I wonder if the anxiety he has been experiencing (stray, attack, shelter, surgery, travels) hasn't prevented him from getting a better handle on his lack of vision. I hope that once he realizes he will always have a safe place to sleep, always have food and water, always be with the same people when he wakes and when he sleeps he will adjust better.

Scenting the mat where Sparky eats and drinks is a good plan! I read where folks use different scents in every room of the house so the pup will always know where they are. I've been thinking about using carpet samples or rugs with different textures as sort of entry mats into each room when I get a house, too. That way when their feet touch the textile, they will know where they are. In this camper, that isn't an issue for Brick or Trink! :p

I have also read of using PVC on the leashes but I haven't yet learned what that is supposed to do for the pups. When Trink is on her leash I don't notice that she is uncomfortable about anything associated with it - in fact, being on her leash helped give her confidence when she first came here. It seems to have the same effect when we go to strange places - sort of a tether for her, a connection. She DOES NOT like it when she is someplace she is familiar with tho...she wants to explore without being hampered then. :D

I really think that in a few months you and hubby are going to be so surprised by how well Sparky is doing. Just be consistent in all you do for and with him - that will help instill confidence in him. These little babies teach us so much as we are teaching them. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks, Marie & Leslie!
Yes, each day is a little better. I think they will try to fit us in tomorrow for the safety fence.
I have ordered a water safety jacket for Sparky for when he is in the pool area with us. He never liked the water but, who knows, with the jacket he may become an olympic swimmer!!:D
He still has some disagreements with Grover but he can still hold his own. They do play wrestle as well.
Leslie, I saw the mesh eyewear from doggles that you mentioned. I read somewhere that they are "stiff" whatever that means (?)
I think I read that the PVC on the leash is to facilitate holding the dog close and having more control. I can just picture little Brick with the eyewear, the PVC and some kind of vest. I can almost hear him say "OK, already, Mom. Do you think I have enough stuff?":D
Love, hugs & kisses to everyone,
Carrol

[apollo6]

Dear
Carrol
I have attached link on vest for blind dogs
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBUS419US419&q=vest+for+blind+dog#q=vest+for+blind+dog&hl=en&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBUS419US419&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=39qHTYT-B5CosAP8nZCdDA&ved=0CG0QrQQ&biw=1118&bih=667&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=1528e66fe9bc4f15

We used to have a boat and we had vests for both our dogs. You can buy at petmart, petco, Amazon.com,or go on line and google -dog swim vest.
Hope this helps.
I am dealing with Apollo's leg issues myself.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Bichonluver3]

Thanks for the info, Sonja. I appreciate it. I hope little Apollo's leg problems will be resolved.
Love,
Carrol