pepsilynn (Poppy) miniature schnauzer suspected Cushings

[pepsilynn]

Hi
i do hope I am in the right place to introduce myself, My name is Lynn and My Miniature Shnauzer, Poppy has suspected Cushings, I am pretty sure the test will come back as pos, however she only had a DST test on fri, soo many things , are fitting into place, I would love to say lets wait and see, but all the signs are there, panting, big tummy, dull thinning coat, behaviour (unsettled at times) increased hunger, drinking water not exessively but for a dog that HATES water and has to have it mixed with her food, and goats milk, she has taken a sudden like to it. she went to the vets with a water infection and it was quiried bladder stones (she has had one before) but her bloods came back with Liver raised, protien in urine, but as soon as the vet said they were questioning cushings I new, We had a diabetic -dog Pepsi for 51/2 years and she was tested twice for cushings, Pepsi was Poppy's half sister. I am gutted it was heartbreaking to have Pepsi with diabetes go through the blindness then the surgerys!!!!!
We will give Poppy the same as pepsi the best care we can not sure what else to say , you may all think I am being a bit premature and i truly hope am wrong But!!!!! anyway thats us so far many thanks for reading luv pepsilynn

[frijole]

Hi there! A fellow schnauzer lover here. It seems our breed is prone to both diabetes and cushing's. My Haley had cushings' and my Annie has "issues" that we thought were cushings but we now think are due an adrenal tumor.... long story.... Just make sure you do all the proper tests because alot of illnesses mimic cushings. Better safe than sorry.

My mom, aunt and brother both have diabetic schnauzers.... Wow huh? Glad you found us... keep us posted on what you find out and feel free to ask questions.

Kim

[pepsilynn]

Hi Kim
Many thanks for your response, i will take note of what you say, i am afraid of her becoming diabetic, but jumping the gun a bit eh! Yes shnauzer do seem to have many problems with endocrine der! We lost Pepsi 18mths ago and it still breaks my heart, didn't know there was so many problems that could mimic cushings! will have to read more, my husband has just taken poppy a walk as she is not settling very fidgety hoping if it is excess stress hormone perhap a walk may help. many thanks Lynn

[mytil]

Hi Lynn,

Welcome to our site.

Here is a link to some very informative reading on Cushing's - http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=180. They explain the testing and treatment options.

When you get the chance, let us know how old Poppy is. And also post the results of the test performed on Friday so we all can see the numbers.

Terry

[pepsilynn]

HI terry
Many thanks for your response, poppy will be 10yrs in May and wieghts 8.3 kg have recently read side affects of meds vet has spoken about putting her on vetoryl\trilostane.Am horrified the cure sounds worse then the complaint! l But having said that a high level of stress hormone going around your system isn't a picnic either, it explains her need to hide, and occasionaly acting nervous,would it also make her more uncomfortable with loud noises? I will ask for the numbers of her test hope to get them tomorrow, The vet hasn't said anything about finding out (if postive results) whether it is pituraty or adrenal (should I insist!) I know the vets and feel confident about them (having had pepsi over 5yrs with diabetes) we had to work together then. How often does cushing develope into diabetes do you know??? sorry bout me spelling never been me best skill!!!! Luv Lynn and Poppy

[pepsilynn]

Hi
Poppy's numbers are Start -189
3hrs -23.8
8hrs - 367
Poppy is going in for a acth on wed!
many thanks Lynn and Poppy

[lulusmom]

Hi Lynn,

I have merged your latest post with your original thread so that all of Poppy's information is in one place.

It appears that the results of the LDDS is in nmol so I have converted that to ug/dl below, which is what most of us are used to seeing here. In any event, those results are definitely consistent with cushing's and because there was at least 50% suppression from baseline at four hours, your vet has most probably diagnosed pituitary dependent cushing's, right?

Pre (baseline) draw 6.8 ug/dl
4 hour draw .86 ug/dl
8 hour draw 13.3 ug/dl

I have two cushdogs, both very tiny and both have treated with Trilostane and Lysodren. Lulu is 4.5 lbs (2 kg) and Jojo is about 7 lbs (3.1 kg). It's a long story so I'll spare you the details but both started on Lysodren, switched to Trilostane for two years and then switched back to Lysodren. Lulu was diagnosed at 3 years old and she is nine years old now. Jojo was a rescue so we don't know how old he really is but he was diagnosed in 2007. Everybody here will tell you that being fearful is a normal reaction. We've all been there....the hair on the back of your neck stands straight up and trying to focus long enough to understand what's happening is the hardest thing you've ever done because your fear is paralyzing.

I look back when I was walking around like a deer in headlights and think; "if only I knew then what I know now". What a huge difference an education can make in our ability to cope and be the best advocate we can for our dogs. Fear, frustration and heartbreak are all emotions we're familiar with and I promise you that if you want to learn, we'll make you feel good about being in your own skin again. :D

To answer your question about diabetes, if the cushing's is controlled effectively, a cushdog should not be at any greater risk of getting diabetes than any other dog. However, keep in mind that Poppy is a breed that is at the top of the list of breeds that are genetically predisposed to diabetes mellitus.

If you haven't take a look at information available in our Helpful Resources section, please do and pay close attention to the references available for Vetoryl. Here's a handy dandy link to use.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

Not all vets do an acth stimulation test as a baseline before starting treatment but I personally think it's a great idea so I'm glad to see that Poppy is schedule for an acth stim on Wednesday. I'll be waiting to hear about the results.

Glynda

[pepsilynn]

Hi Glynda
Many thanks for very informative response, yes I am totally confused at the moment and Poppys half sister Pepsi (deceased) was diagnosed with diabetes at 5yrs so this shocked turmoil I feel at the moment is a old familier feeling that I experienced with Pepsi but we had her for 11yrs in total and I hope Poppy wll be with us a few years yet. But I am getting a sinking feeling everytime I think about it. We are in the fortunate position of having a good vet. However I found the help I got from the the support site a brilliant means of support hense me seeking out this site. I don't know nothing about numbers and were they should be or how I can help Poppy other then giving her the meds the vet perscribes, I am terrified of the side affects and watching poppy go through them, but there seems to be no alternative. Diabetes seems a dodle in comparison at the moment but i became so familier with that condition. Now I am starting again with a new one, is this the same roller coaster I wonder??? many many thanks for your response
Luv Lynn and Poppy

[frijole]

Lynn, We all arrived here feeling the same way... confused, overwhelmed and I remember feeling like if I didn't become an endocronologist ;) within 24 hrs my dog might die. Hang in there and know that is what we are here to do - help guide you.

Just wanted you to know we have been there, we learned and our dogs thrived. You can do this. Hugs, Kim

[pepsilynn]

Hi
Due to start Poppy on meds tomorrow trilosane! don't know how I feel about it, currently Poppy has no symptons well !!!! that is visable symptons, last week her tummy was huge and hard, she was eating excessively, thirsty, running around looking confused etc but she had just had 2 steroid injections (pre cushings diagnosis) that is to treat suspected anal gland problem and water infection, so was it any wonder she was displaying symptons . Last week all we wanted to do was give her something to help her. now she is so chilled and "normal" its hard to believe she has anything wrong, except subtle things like licking, and snoring (both she has done forever it seems) would be so easy not to treat??? until things develope more !!!! With Pepsi We had to treat she had diabetes and it was in your face she clearly was ill, this is more silent.
If Poppy hadn't just happened to have a blood test for water infection we wouldn't know there was anything wrong!!!! Oh Dear!!!!! do we risk making her ill with meds when things are ok? or at least seem so!!
luv lynn and poppy

[lulusmom]

Hi Lynne and welcome back.

When you posted on March 7th, you said Poppy would be having an acth stim test on March 9th. Can you post the results here? If you don't have them, your vet should be able to give you the two numbers we need, the pre and post. Pre is the pre injection (basal) draw and a one hour draw after the injection. Given that Poppy is no longer symptomatic and there is still a question as to whether the LDDS test was done while Poppy had an active infection, which can cause a false positive result, I would be very interested to make certain that the acth stimulation test validates the low dose dex test.

I personally would be very hesitant to treat in the absence of symptoms and unless something like diabetes is an issue, it should not be a problem to wait until Poppy becomes symptomatic again. If she never becomes symptomatic, I'd certainly question the diagnosis. FYI, symptoms are a huge component of a diagnosis and every well known and well published endocrine specialists warn against treating a dog that is not symptomatic. Is your vet pushing you into starting treatment? If so, why?

Glynda

[pepsilynn]

Hi Can someone please help, poppy started her meds today Tripolone
30mg, had to take a urine sample to vets, vet said result showed a higher specific gravity level than would be expected in a cushings dog, it has been suggested that the tablets have "kicked in" urine was taken about 3 hrs max after tablet!!!! vet said to keep giving tablets and take in another sample. does this sound right??? I am scared of giving he meds she may not need her Acth was in normal range.
Many thanks Lynn

[pepsilynn]

Hi
poppy had a urine test today and it has come back higher specific gravity then would be expected in a cushings dog!!! Poppy had had her first tripolone tab 3hrs previous could this have been the reason do meds work that quick??? vet said to keep giving her the tabs and let them have another urine sample.
many thanks Lynn

[labblab]

Lynn, in all the years that I have been on the forum, I have not heard of a vet making a determination about the effectiveness of trilostane by testing the specific gravity of a urine sample on the first day of treatment. For that matter, I have never heard of the specific gravity of urine being used to determine trilostane dosing decisions at any time during treatment. Specific gravity can be one of many indicators that a dog may have Cushing's during the course of the diagnostic process. But I have never heard of it being used to monitor treatment. And no, I would not think that three hours after taking the first dose of trilostane, you would expect to see a change in urine specific gravity that was actually related to treatment.

If Poppy's recent ACTH test was normal and she is no longer exhibiting Cushing's symptoms, like Glynda, I do not understand why your vet is pressing you to begin trilostane treatment. Regardless, the proper monitoring tool is another ACTH test performed after several days of treatment, not a test of the specific gravity of urine on the first day. If Poppy's urine was normal today, that makes me even more suspicious that she does not have Cushing's at all!

Marianne

P.S. I've merged your new reply into your original thread about Poppy so that all her information will be kept in one place. That way, anybody reading her thread will be aware of her entire story and situation.

[pepsilynn]

Hi Glynda,
Still trying to find my way around this site so didn't realise you had posted. many thanks, My husband and myself are sooo confused, Poppy has had the occasions when she has sat up and started panting, she doesn't have a extended tummy,not drinking excessively,she doesn't always get up on the seats first time, and her coat is duller but no skin problems, she has suffered with inflammatory bowel but hasn't had a flare up in 3-4yrs, in fact the only time i would say she was cushings was after her steroid injections an it was only a week after the 2nd injection that she was diagnosed with cushings, she had the extended tummy the drinking the nervousness excessive hunger. So not sure what to think would welcome opinion, also her acth was normal range although numbers weren't given, When she had her first blood test her cholestral was up and so was her liver readings.
many thanks again Lynn and Poppy

[pepsilynn]

Hi marianne
Sorry to confuse you , the urine test was to see if she had a infection, she had the acth stim which came back near normal range.
Poppy has had various health issues, one being a bladder stone removes about 4years ago, then about 4weeks ago she was behaving strange looking at her backend and running up and down the room vet treat her for anal gland emptied it and gave short acting steroid this helped for 24hrs then she became unsettled again and I got a sample of her urine it was just dribble of urine with very bloody. so she was given a further short acting steroid jab and 2 weeks antibiotics, her tummy became distended and hard and she was becoming quite nervy unable to settle, increased thirstand appitite, then vet suggested after a week to have ultrasound to see if she had stones, she had a pre op blood test and her chlorlestral was high and her liver readings were high, which she said was suggestive of cushings, she linked it in with a lrge cyst poppy had removed from her neck last May, Thing is she had a pre op blood test then that never revealed anything, poppy, they went on to do the test results above in older post, week later acth which were in normal range or near, started med yesterday but poppy started to look at her backend again and Millie sniffing her (which is what hapened last time) so took urine samle in, I am beginning to wonder if we should go ahead with the ultrasound and wait until we have ruled out other things before treating. she has only had one tab, thing is the vet said herself they only have a handful of cushing dogs so experience isnt there i think they are guessin about why urine result is the way it many thanks
lynn and poppy

[pepsilynn]

Hi
Now have numbers - basal to ACTH -240 post - 560 hope this is helpful. Have spoken to endocrinoligist (used to be pepsi's specialist) who saif tripilone is in the system and working within 4-6hrs, he also said some cushinoid dogs do have high concentrate of urine, However have spoken to head vet at our practice this am and said we were unhappy treating Poppy at this time as she is displaying no obvious symptons, she isn't drinking in excess or peeing, she hasn't got a pot belly. and in view of the fact that all test were done while Poppy had the UTI and was on antibiotic and the week previous had had 2 steroid injections, We thought it better to wait until her system was clear then see if there are any symptons and take it from there,
Lynn and Poppy

[lulusmom]

Hi Lynn.

Thanks for posting the acth stim test. For those folks who are more familiar with ug/dl reporting value, I've converted the results below:

Pre = 8.7 ug/dl
Post = 20.3 ug/dl

I don't know which lab was used but most would interpret this result as borderline and with the absence of symptoms, I think you made a very wise decision to decline treatment at this time. If it were me, I'd not worry about cushing's until Poppy told me too. Believe me, if your girl has cushing's, I promise you that she will eventually start showing signs.

It sounds like Poppy is doing well at the moment and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she stays that way. Just remember that if the time ever comes that you may be looking at the need to start treatment, we'll be here for you and will get you and Poppy on the right track.

Glynda

P.S. I got your visitor message and to answer your question, I have days when I don't cope very well at all and it's usually not cushing's related. :D I've been dealing with cushing's since 2005 so my view of cushing's is light years away from your own. Experience and knowledge are the best tranquilizers around for us pet owners with cushpups.

[pepsilynn]

Hi
So many thanks to you Glynda, I am not sure Poppy has cushings but not sure that she doesn't once you have something put into your head its hard not to look for qualifying symptons, but when they are not obvious then yes I feek we are doing the right thing by Poppy, I guess having had a dog with diabetes (Poppys half sister) we automatically hink the worse, Yes I will be here if things change for Poppy and I thank you so much for your support Lynn and Poppy