14 year-old Shih Tzu With Recent Cushing's Diagnosis

[jmac]

Hi there,
I need some help. I think I'm going to try Hannah on Claritin. Does anyone have experience with this? My vet said Hannah, at 12 lbs., could take 5 mg twice a day and that doesn't sound like it could be right if humans take 10 mg. I'm going to talk to the vet who does laser treatments on Hannah tomorrow. I thought someone on here used it so I wanted to check.

I'm holding off on Cyclosporine for now bc the side effects mentioned here made me a little nervous and it would be $75 per month. My vet did not tell me of any side effects. Hannah is really itchy the past 48 hours so I am stressed out. My other option is the steroid spray but she itches all over the place so I'd need a lot. What are your thoughts on that? I am dog-sitting at my parents' house this weekend and they have 4 dogs and I have my 2. It's crazy over here. One is blind, two are old, three have high needs. It's gonna be a looooong weekend.
Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I think Marianne knows about the Claritin. I am sure she will stop by.
I will have to most likely make the same decision about Zoe and the oral cyclosporine. I have not yet researched it. The opthamologist brought it up and I freaked and he did not think I should freak about it.
We are using the cyclosporine eye drops.

Dog sitting sounds fun!!!! Just put some good music on!!!!

I am sorry to hear of Hannah being so itchy. Hoping the Claritin will help.

love,
addy

[jmac]

Hi Everyone-

I know I've kind of dropped off the planet. Things have been really busy with the end of the school year coming, the fact that I was debating switching teaching positions, and because I am having our end of the year staff party at my house. Plus, Hannah has been an itchy mess and Izzy was due for her dental, so we've been making lots of vet trips too.

I switched Hannah to Claritin this past Sun. I haven't noticed much of a difference yet. I am still doing baths, but my vet told me to decrease to once a week so I don't dry her out too much. He also recommended that I add Omega 3 to see if that helps her skin at all. I bought something called Missing Link and it's a powder I add to her food once a day. I sent an email to the IM vet on 4/16 and have called three times since and have not heard a thing back. I wanted her advice on allergy treatment for Hannah (I wanted her opinion on Cyclosporine). I only saw her once (last summer) and have only talked to her twice since, but I am really irritated by this.

Lately Hannah has been really licking her genital area, and not necessarily the entire area, but right around her vulva, or whatever that is. It looked a little irritated and I was going to take her to the vet today, but the Chlorhexidine wipes I tried seemed to help a little. She has been previously irritated in that area and it doesn't look like a skin infection at this point. I also don't think it is a UTI because she is showing no other signs. We decided to give it a day or so and take her in if needed.

I also put in a call to the vet where she got acupuncture to see if it can help at all with allergies (or if they had other ideas, since they do a lot of holistic treatments). They said it might help and that I could make an appointment to discuss some options and maybe do acupuncture. The vet said she would recommend trying some oils, or other more natural treatments. I haven't decided if I am going to pursue that now.

I can usually keep her busy chewing on a rawhide (in order to keep her from licking/itching) but I have to watch her like a hawk because I worry about her choking (which she did once and it was HORRIBLE). It turns into me cutting off the gooey part every 5-10 min. but at least it keeps her happy and occupied.

She has been doing pretty well with her back but we got a laser treatment last weekend because I thought she seemed a little sore and reluctant to put her feet up on me when I put on her leash, which she usually does. She seems a little perkier now, and is doing well, so that is one success.

We're still not treating Cushing's and she has shown no increase in symptoms in the last year. She is not drinking or eating any more than she was a year ago, coat looks good, no panting, no pot belly...just the little bit of back leg weakness and the skin issues from licking. I still sometimes think about testing further to see if she has Cushing's, but for now it's not my biggest concern...

I still try to get on here and check in fairly often; I'm sorry for not posting more, but it has been a stressful time. I'm hoping things will calm down--hopefully soon, but definitely when the school year ends. I just wanted to let you all know I haven't fallen off the planet. :D

Hannah and Julie

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

brave woman hosting the staff party!

over on the diabetes forum, Patty gets deer antlers for her dog instead of rawhides, just a thought for something less soggy, let me know if you want me to search for the link.

there has also been a lot of allergy discussions over there and some folks have had luck with Chlortabs.

Just thought I'd throw more options out there for you!

When I met with Dr. Husbands he said he had been doing acupuncture on his 18 year old lab for a few years. He thought he was going to have to put his lab down this week as it was time. but he definitely is open to alternative healing methods and saving a buck. Cancer is his specialty though

hugs, Judi

[addy]

HI Julie,

The dogs at worked used The Missing Link. It has good stuff in it. I hope it helps Hannah's skin.

A stuffed Kong wont help distract her? A lot of people freeze them to make it harder to get the food out.

Hosting a staff party sounds like fun!!!!!!!!!! Dont worry about the forum, you have a lot on your plate.

I have read a few things about Oral cyclosporine because we are facing that too somewhere down the line. I still am not sure how I feel about it.

The allergies are so bad this year, I am suffereing terribly myself and now the mosquitos are out and they are the size of a bird:eek::eek:

Good luck with the party,
love,
addy

[addy]

Hi Julie,

Sorry to hear about Hannah and her allergies. It is a wicked allergey season. I was thinking abou asking IMS about the anthihistamine you are using.

Have you given any more thought to the Atopia? I have not wanted to think about it either. I did not increase Zoe's eye drops to the 2% cyclosporine either. I have that battle June 2nd.

I know how stressful it is when they are itchy and you cant sleep. Lack of sleep just makes everything more difficult to deal with.

Think about you all the time. Hugs and love,
addy

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Julie,
I just wanted you to know I am here and thinking of you.

For the rawhide, there are lamb's ears as well. They are smaller and it might be worth a try. Plus I picked up something....I don't remember its name, but it looks like a 6" stick of wood. That keeps Bailey occupied for quite some time. Finally, I freeze creamy peanut butter in Bailey's little Kong. I don't know that it slows her down, but it does make it very handy when you need something and it's right there in the freezer for you....all prepared.

-Susan

[jmac]

Hi Everyone,

I'm just writing quick to ask for some good vibes and/or prayers. Hannah seems to be having a disc flare-up of some sort. I noticed that when she turned around quickly her walk was sort of "off" and it kind of reminded me of last Sept. when her walk was way off. I think they call it ataxia-it looks like a drunk walk.

I tried the reflex test where you turn their paws over and see if they correct. She did it immediately with her right back foot, but took at least 2 or 3 seconds with the left. I tried a few more times and she didn't even always turn it over completely. This sent me into a panic.

She is walking normally and at a normal speed and is not showing signs of pain like she did in the past. I called the ER vet and they agreed I could just start Metacam and call my vet tomorrow, unless she gets worse, and then I should bring her in.

I texted my laser vet and plan to call the acupuncture vet tomorrow too. I have a meeting tomorrow morning to teach summer school, and also am supposed to teach a class to 30 other teachers tomorrow afternoon, so this is not good timing. I am a nervous wreck, but trying to remain calm.

Please keep us in your thoughts...

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I am sorry to hear about Hannah. I hope it is not the same as last time. You always have my thoughts and prayers I think about you both a lot and actually was going to ask you how her eye is doing.

I hope the Metacam helps.

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

thinking of you and Hannah and hoping it resolves quickly. hugs, Judi

[Harley PoMMom]

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers and hoping Hannah is feeling like herself real soon.

Love and huge hugs,
Lori

[Skye]

hey friend
do you give massage therapy to her? or in her diet give her cosequinn ds sprinkle tablets? have also heard adequinn injections work well. though i would do those when other things have not worked. but the supplement has worked fairly well for my girl. and i know i site that sells it online for fraction of cost. if you do any sort of massage techniques and stretches for her it may help but careful of the selection of strecthes for her. :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

I hope this is nothing major and Hannah is bouncing around real soon. Let us know what the vet says and how she is doing.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[jmac]

Thanks, guys. I took Hannah to get an exam yesterday and acupuncture if they felt she needed it. We saw the third of the three vets who perform acupuncture and I really liked her. Hannah's reflexes were fine, and she felt that she was not suffering from a new issue, but thought she could use acupuncture. She watched Hannah walk around the room and felt that she has more weakness in her right back leg and wanted to support her hips and her back.

The acupuncture did NOT go well. Hannah has never really liked it, but yesterday was terrible. She was flailing around and even whipped her head back to bite (not a person, but where she tried to put the needle). That spot happened to be the right back leg. The vet was unsure if it was really painful, or if Hannah was just so aware of the needles that she was tense and panicked. She ended up doing okay for the 10 min. we sat with the needles in, but we never had one in that back leg. It was rather traumatic for me and even for my mom (she came with to help hold Hannah). She was fine last night and today, and I am finally feeling a little better too.

The vet yesterday loved that I do laser treatment with Hannah and recommended that I do it in about 48 hours and suggested that I try to maintain her comfort with laser based on yesterday's experience. I'm not sure if Hannah didn't like the touch of this vet, or if something really hurt, or what. She never liked it, but was never reacting like that. I'm not sure if the leg weakness is more due to Cushing's or a back issue. Anyway, we have a laser treatment tomorrow at 5:30 so I hope that will provide her some relief.

She also recommended I try a fish oil to help with her allergies and also her joints. We will see how that works, and then may add some Chinese herbs to help her allergies. That would only cost me $18 per month, so I am open to it since traditional medicine has not relieved her.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I hope the laser treatment helps Hannah. The only problem I found with Chinese herbs is you need to know any side effects and it is not always easy to find out what is in the Chinese medicine. I even called a manufacturer and emailed because it was written in Chinese on the bottle and they would not tell me. Zoe was on Shen Calmer and I wanted to know if anything in it worked like a diuretic, etc. The holistic vet assured me that it would not be a problem to use with Cushing drugs and really could not discuss what was in it. Made me nervous. Hopefully your vet will be more knowledgeable and read Chinese:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Sending lots of love

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I'm sorry the visit didn't go too well. Jenny suddenly decided she hated getting her insulin shots so I can empathize too well with how Hannah was acting. I hope the laser goes well.

And only Addy would be translating Chinese for her dog! lol

[addy]

Actually I probably worry about everything with her these days. I have been having a really tough time lately and have been doing a lot of crying and worrying that my time with my girl is limited. I am trying to accept it, and just embrace the time with her, but it is so hard to do. Then she'll bounce back and seem great. She, like Zoe, is still very happy and interactive with me, and she can move faster than Izzy when food is involved

me too, Julie, seems like we are in the same place right now. zoe made it home, they only kept her for 2 1/2 hours instead of the usual four- hubby gave everyone a big tip:D:D

I hope Hannah's back is better, Zoe slips alot now on the hardwood floors.

[Altira]

I don't know... something about huskies and needles... they never even flinch at them. Kira has no problem with acupuncture. Poor Hannah. Give her a hug for me.

[addy]

Hey Julie,

I posted Zoe's eye stuff on my thread for you. How is Hannah's back? When it rains it pours.:(:(:( I know you are upset, we are so alike;);)

I mentioned on my thread that it may be allergic conjunctivitis as that is what they suspect Zoe has though I think it is immune related.

The fluriprofen was to help inflammation and we had also had to use the higher dose of cyclosporine. We went from .2% to 1.%. Eye vet wanted to go to 2%, I said not yet try 1% first. He hoped that would help her eyes stay well lubricated. He said there is a small window to work with as far as dry eye is concerned and if we cant control it well (she had a mild case of it but the crystals posed a problem) the gland atrophies and then you cant produce tears with the cyclosorine.

We compound the cyclosporine (in coconut oil) froma company in NC. I pay $40 I think and it lasts almost 3 months.

The fluriprofen is pricey because we were going through a bottle every eight days and it was about $15 but then we cut a discount card for Pet drugs so we pay I think about $10 for a bottle. It should last us a bit longer as we cut back to one drop each eye twice a day.

I hope your vet can help until you get in to the eye vet.

Hang in there. Lots of love and prayers for you and Hannah

[jmac]

Hi Addy,

I saw your reply-thanks! I called my regular vet this morning as well, to see if they wanted to see her, and my vet said he would call the opthamologist vet to see if he could get us in faster-but that I would probably pay more. I said that was fine since at this rate I would pay to see two vets anyway. I guess they take emergency appointments and my vet said he wanted her seen this week. We got in TODAY! I had to pay $95 instead of $59, but I would've paid more if I had to go to my other vet and then this vet, so that's fine. I just had to go and be prepared to wait until he had some time. They ended up getting us in right away-like a 5 min. wait. They are wonderful.

Anyway, I was right. She is having big issues with a dry eye. There were no ulcers and the pressure was fine, but her dry eye is getting worse. He mentioned the same thing about the window of time before things deteriorate rapidly. My parents dog was really bad when they adopted her and the drops didn't help her. He said that as the eye gets worse they have less feeling on their cornea which makes them blink even less, and then things just get worse. He said I could try Cyclosporine or Tacrolimus drops, but that he recommended Tacrolimus because he thinks it works better-95% of dogs have success. I am to use it in her left eye only once per day. He said that within two weeks I should see less mucus on her eye and it should have a shiny appearance again.

I am also supposed to use NeoPolyDex ointment in both of her eyes daily. (He said if we are gone all day or any time she is going to be inactive and sleeping I should give it and then give it at night as well). If I am home I should use Genteal or other moisturizing drops to keep her comfortable. I guess the NeoPolyDex also keeps them moist. I used it a few times on her about a year ago and can't remember why I stopped. Of course I realize there is a steroid in it, but he and my regular vet said it won't affect Cushing's. He just said I need to be sure she doesn't develop an injury because then I need to stop it immediately and start with antibiotic drops.

I brought my whole bag of doggie eye meds with and he added the Tacrolimus. It was $49 but I only need to use one drop per day in her left eye and he is going to have me get it through Meds 4 Vets after that. I am hopeful that she will be feeling better soon since I feel like I caught it early and was able to get in. I'm very grateful to my vet and to the specialist for the rush, even if it did cost more.

Her back seems okay. No one was ever able to determine if there even is an issue with her back. They seem to think it could be more of an arthritis issue or leg weakness in general. She got laser treatment Thurs. and we now include her hips. That vet said that Hannah doesn't really show any muscle wasting or hair loss or pot belly, and she usually feels that the back end weakness comes on with the other muscle wasting issues, so she was more inclined to think it could be arthritic. I paid for three laser treatments so and will use the other two when I feel like she needs them. We have been going for our short walks and she is doing fine. I just notice that she sits more to eat...but again I am watching more so maybe she has done this for a while. For now I am hoping that things are okay and that they'll stay that way for a while. Thanks for checking!

I'd love to hear if you have heard of this med that I got for Hannah. Maybe it's something Zoe could try too, as an alternative for Cyclosporine. I also searched it online and didn't see anything scary.

Stay cool!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Im so glad Hannah was seen.

I asked eye doc about Tacrolimus, he said he uses it when cyclosporine doesn't work for the dog. Many of the IBD dogs used it. A few had a problem because it was suspended in corn oil and they had trouble with the corn oil but otherwise no one reported any other issues. I hope it helps Hannah.

The other med I don't know but since Zoe has the crystals and the divet, he is weird about what to use on her. Right now Zoe's eyes look pretty good. She sees eye vet in 2 weeks.

Funny, I had wondered if her eyes look better because it seems like her cortisol may be going higher- but who knows!!!!

Good to hear about Hannah's back improving. Sweet thing:):):):)

[addy]

Hi Julie,

How is Hannah?

Keep cool:D

[jmac]

Thanks for checking on us, Addy!

Hannah seems to be doing well. I feel like the Tacrolimus/NeoPolyDex combo worked almost immediately, but I really think I caught the worsening of her eye right away. It already looks wet and shiny most of the time, and is no longer red. It looks like her other eye, which has not been the case for a while. I am glad to see such an immediate difference. He thought it would be a couple of weeks, but it has been noticeable even in a few days!

We are trying hard to stay cool, but it's been tough! I avoid the outdoors except for early morning and evening. It's been tough to find time to take our short walks. Hannah was extra perky with that pep in her step last night on our walk, so I loved that! Any time she looks good makes me thrilled!

She has been scratching her little cyst-like growths lately because they are in her "itchy spots" of course, so I don't like that much. I have been using the chlorhexidine wipes and antibiotic ointment as needed, and it seems to work, but I wish we could get the itching under control!

I haven't noticed a difference with itching since starting the fish oil, and they did call me back to ask about Chinese herbs, but I wanted to give it a couple of weeks. Plus now I want to do more checking on what side effects the herbs might have.

Anyway, we're hanging in there and things are good for today!

Julie & Hannah

[apollo6]

Hi Julie,
Your words are tobe taken to heart. I to have been worrying so much about Apollo's deteriating health and not trying to focus on his happiness. how is our little girl Hannah doing. We need to take one day at time and enjoy the moments we still have . But it is hard. I look back at all the joy, laughter, mischieve ,Apollo gave me and I love him so much it hurts.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi Julie,

Stopping in to say hi and to see how Hannah is. I hope her eyes are okay. The eye vet told me he was concerned that if I dont control Zoe's dry eye that she will keep getting ulcers so she is on Tacrolimus in her ulcerated eye and cyclosporine and Tacrolimus in her left eye. Her tear production was down again Friday.:(:(

The weather has cooled off and it feel so much better, doesn't it?
The drought is terrible though. It has been weeks since we have had any rain.

Enjoy your week!!

[jmac]

Hi All,

I need some input/clarification from you all. I took Hannah into the vet yesterday because of a yucky looking "hot spot" of sorts (on her chin) from all of her scratching/rubbing. They shaved the area and gave me an antibiotic and told me to use my chlorhexidine wipes once a day and to try Gentaved once a day. (I have an expired bottle from my parents that my vet said was fine to try. I'm not too thrilled about it but did put on a tiny bit yesterday).

While I was at the vet, I asked lots of questions to cover all of Hannah's issues:

*allergies (lots of itching and biting and a few small scabs from it). The holistic vet said we could try Chinese herbs and at this point we have tried everything else so he agreed we should. I picked it up today and she took her first one. It is Si Miao San. Is anyone familiar with this? It is supposed to help with "heat in the body." I did remind them of her Cushing's, as well as all of her other meds, and they assured me it would be fine. From what I read, it seems like it should be okay, and apparently is sometimes used in dogs with Cushing's because it can help with inflammation and weakness. At this point I just hope she does okay on it, but I would be thrilled if it helped her allergies! There is another formula she would like us to try, but for now she thinks this will help with the hot spot, small wounds, etc.

*possible senility (wandering into closets and recently getting stuck between the end table and the wall in our living room)

*hind leg weakness (anything to do to build muscle). I didn't get much of an answer, other than trying some gradual hills like the woman who does the laser treatment suggested.

*teeth--should she get her dental next month (in April he thought we should probably go ahead and do it and yesterday he looked in her mouth and said her teeth look okay and he wouldn't do it. I'm not sure what to make of that. Does he think she has limited time so why do it? Does he really think they're fine? She's had tons pulled from issues in the past)

*Cushing's check-in--should we continue as we are? Is there any point to checking her cortisol, etc.?

Now for my questions:
1. Is there any benefit to checking Hannah's cortisol level? Does it give me any indication of how "bad" her Cushing's is? My vet wavered between baseline cortisol level and an ACTH, and also mentioned a UCCR. He said we would probably get the most info. from an ACTH, but really didn't answer my question about what, if anything, it would tell us. It is $192. I also called the IM vet and left a message with the same question for her to call me back.

2. Has anyone heard of DermaPaw? I found it from that link that was posted about paw licking by breed and it looks like it could be promising. It's some kind of paste/salve that you put on the areas your dog licks/bites/etc. The people who created it seemed to study different combos and found the best one. I ordered it. My mom wants to try it on her collie who licks his paw really badly, usually in late August. I can't wait for it to arrive. My vet thought it looked good.

3. Anyone else know anything about Si Miao San? Or have you used any Chinese herbs with your dog with any success? (Or issue). It is pretty cheap, and I would love to give her some relief, but am always nervous about something new. It took me about 15 min. to finally give it to her. ;)

That's it for now. We're off to get Hannah's sweet little face trimmed.

I look forward to hearing from you!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I have only used Shen Calmer with Zoe so I have no experience with Chinese herbs. Zoe's holistic vet switched her to a turkey diet a few years ago because she was "hot" and turkey was cool or neutral, I cant remember which.

The ACTH will tell you her current cortisol levels. Zoe was sky high in the beginning with not all symptoms and I wonder if her unresolved allergies could contribute anything to the cortisol levels? Maybe Glynda or Marianne will have an idea on that.

I know Marianne tried different products on her Peg for her allergies and chewing. Maybe you could check her thread. I cant remember if Dermapaw was one of them. Is that the product that shows you how to make the sock suspenders?

I am so sorry Hannah is having issues. It is always so hard to know which path to take.

Thinking of you both and hoping someone else has input.

hugs, hugs, hugs

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

I looked up the Four Marvels and didn't find anything in my books on it...but I can't locate one of them and it is the best bet...of course. :rolleyes: What I find online is the same you have found, I'm sure...which didn't tell me a whole let either! :D

Is Hannah showing any signs of her cortisol being off?

Hope the herbs works! Let us know!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Good Luck with the herbs Julie. They do sound promising! I've never tried any of the Chinese herbs, so really curious to see how they work.

Poor little Hannah, feeling so itchy. :( The heat probably doesn't help any either.

Hugs,

Sharlene (and molly muffin)

[lulusmom]

Hi Julie,

Aside from skin issues and weakness, which I'm not certain is cushing's related, is Hannah displaying any of the more typical cushing's symptoms? If she isn't, then if it were me, I wouldn't incur the expense of checking cortisol levels. Lack of symptoms is reason enough not to start treatment but my concern that is even if Hannah had symptoms, I would be hard pressed to start treatment, given her itchy skin and the onset of doggie dementia. Both could get worse with reduction of cortisol. Is Hannah still on Anipryl?

Glynda

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

did you start the herbs? how is it going? my husband's allergies have actually been a little better the past week due to the dry weather. Hope Hannah is getting some relief also

[addy]

Hi Julie,

Wondering how the herbs are going too. I thought Glynda had some sound thoughts for you regarding Hannah's cortisol. What did you think?

IT RAINED!!!!! I think the storms came from your neck of the woods:D:D

My sister-in-law has never had allergies. Since this last extreme heat spell, her eyes puffed all up:eek::eek::eek::eek: You should see her. It has to be an allergic reaction.

Maybe we need to move to Alaska:):):):):)

[jmac]

Hi Guys-
Thanks for checking on me. Hannah is doing fine on the Si Miao San herbs, although I haven't seen a major difference in her itchiness or anything. It will be a week today. The vet called and left a message that they were checking on her yesterday. I'm going to call back and ask if/when I should notice something.

Glynda, thanks for your perspective on cortisol testing. It makes sense. I would not say Hannah is eating ravenously or drinking/peeing buckets. Her main issues really are leg weakness and occasional skin/ear issues. Her coat does seem different too, but not thinning at all. It's just kind of more dull. That is the least of my concerns.

Sometimes when she does her business I hear a sigh as she squats or a grunt/groan as she poos, but I don't know what to make of that either. Sore knees? Hips? Back? Just feels good? Who knows. I wish they could talk.

At this point I think I'll just have her regular mini blood profile run to check her main organ values. We are due in a week or so. She gets groomed on the 5th of Aug. and then I'm going to have her lasered again. She does her hips and her back now.

Addy, it is finally raining, yes! :):):) Although Izzy is terrified of thunderstorms it is really welcomed this time!

Anyway, thanks for checking on us!

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

That is great that the vet called to check on Hannah. Cheers to little Hannah.
Gosh don't you just want to cuddle that little face. LOL I love her picture.

Sharlene and the molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Hey Julie, just checking in to see how you and Hannah are doing. :) Hope all is well.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

I need some help. I posted a pic. on my profile of a couple of "growths" on Hannah's back. I am hoping they are just the sabaceous cysts she gets (one is bigger and one is smaller). She got groomed today (always an ordeal because she goes with another dog-either Izzy or one of my parents' so the groomer can rotate them so Hannah doesn't have to stand the that whole time with no break) and the groomer pointed out how she had a big goopy scab come off in her bath. There seems to be a little hair missing right by it. I've seen the growths for a while and they looked like the cysts, but she scratches them sometimes so they get irritated or scabbed.

Anyway, I am worried it could be calcinosis cutis. I don't even know much about it, but know Cush dogs can get it. She also had a few small patches of dry skin around them-like dandruff. One vet thought she might have seborrhea and it seems like that's what it could be. I could pull the chunks out of her hair with no problem. It didn't irritate her skin.

Can you look at the pic and let me know if I should be concerned? I do think one of my vets saw this at one point after she scratched it and didn't seem concerned, but I am a worrier.

On a different note, she is tolerating the Chinese herbs just fine, but I haven't noticed a change in her allergies at all. They wanted me to try it for a month. I think there are about 10 days left.

She seems pretty tired and maybe a little sore after her grooming. I'm going to have her lasered this week. She was having a really tough time on the wood floors--she couldn't get up from a sitting position. I'm wondering if part of it was being overdue for a groom with long hair and really long toenails. She still moves around the house with a really quick pace and trots around all the time. I have lots of rugs on the areas not carpeted so she has paths to take to avoid the slippery floors. I'll be curious to see if anything improves with the toenail trim and haircut.

Aside from this weakness and occasional skin issues, other Cushing symptoms are not stronger. Still no pot belly or panting and not excessive thirst, peeing, hunger. So there doesn't seem to be a reason to pursue anything at this time.

I talked to the vet tech and the IMS office last Friday and she said that the doctor would not recommend anything at this point, unless symptoms seem to worsen or if I feel Hannah is much worse than she was a year ago. She would then want to see her. They said the rear leg weakness could be Cushing's, but could also be other things and recommend following up with my regular vet to pursue that. She is already getting laser treatments on her back and hips, and I can try to do some leg strengthening exercises, but have to be careful she doesn't hurt her back.

So that's the update with us. She is still very happy, but I do feel that she is declining a bit. I'm hoping she maintains for awhile, or that I'll see a little improvement after the laser treatment.

Let me know what you think about the picture.

Thanks!
Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hey Julie,

I think in order to be sure, they would need to asperate them to diagnosis cal cutis. Zoe's were white and hard, you could tell they had plaque inside, not puss.

I am not an expert but I dont think it is cal cutis. Hopefully Saber's mom will stop by. She knows alot about cal cutis.

Marie is trying allergy shots on her Ella. I hope they work for her. We have not seen alot of discussions about them. I wish I knew more.

Zoe is the same way on the wood floors, having a hard time but boy, she can sure fly out the door and run and pee and run back to the house if food is waiting in the kitchen:D:D::confused::rolleyes:

Funny thing with Zoe, it seems like all her eye problems started as soon as I dropped her cortisol. Her GP thought the same thing.
I think Glynda gave you good advise. I would be concerned about what a drop in cortisol will due to Hannah's allergies. Waiting is a good plan!!!:D:D:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

Squirt has sebaceous adenomas that look a lot like that when they first appear and just after they rupture. They come up looking like a pink volcano, fill with dark crusty stuff that erupts out. Then the volcano closes and starts all over again. She has several of these spots all up and down her back, on her neck and face. Her vets in TN and those here have said we could have them removed but the odds were they would just come back. They also say it isn't anything for me to worry about. Can you imagine how well that works!? :eek::p

Can't say that IS what Hannah has but wanted to share Squirt's bumps just in case. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[jmac]

Thanks for the input Leslie and Addy, I really appreciate it. I think they are just the sebaceous cyst things she has in a few other places. It just kind of freaked me out with the haircut and no hair around that spot.

I'm afraid we have bigger issues though; I noticed when I was taking my girls on their 2 block walk yesterday that I still heard Hannah's toenails scraping, and after getting groomed and getting them clipped, I didn't think I should. I watched closely and I noticed she is dragging her back left paw every couple of trots. She drags the top of her foot just slightly before she puts her pads back down.

I don't think this is a good sign. I picked her up and carried her the rest of the way home when I noticed. I also called the vet who does her laser treatments and said I wanted to get in sooner than Friday. She isn't exhibiting any other signs of back issues. She isn't moving slowly or acting painful at all. She still trots around and still itches a lot, with both feet. She can stand on one back foot and itch her side with the other (and she does it with both feet).

I did notice today that it looked like at one point she had a hard time getting the back left foot up to scratch her side as high as she wanted to. She will get a laser treatment tomorrow. The vet reminded me it can be arthritis related and not just a neurological issue. She told me that a couple of months ago. I just don't know.

I also read something about some degenerative myelopathy where this happens. First they have a hard time getting up, then they drag a foot, sometimes both, then finally they become paralyzed. It sounded like it was most common in German Shepherds and larger breeds, but it could happen to any dog.

At any rate, I have been preparing myself for about a year now that Hannah doesn't have much time left. I was having such a hard time thinking about being without her for so long that I would sob thinking about it. I think I eventually forced myself to accept that it will happen at some point and that I have to remember what I wonderful life I gave her after adopting her at age 4. I know this isn't necessarily a sign of the end, but I can see her declining, and it is hard. At least I feel as at peace as I can with the fact that some day I may have to make that dreaded decision to let my little girl go. As much as I hope it isn't soon, I feel that I have to prepare for that possibility and cherish every day with her.

I hope I'll get some answers tomorrow about what this may be, but I kind of doubt anyone will have any definitive answers for me. If anyone else has experienced this with your Cush dog, or if you have any ideas of what could be going on, I'd love your input.

Thanks, guys.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Oh Julie :( HUGS. It's so hard to watch our babies have any kind of difficulties. It just is. I too can't bear the thought of being without molly.

Has Hannah had xrays of her back legs? Molly was diagnosed at around 2 years as not having a deep enough groove for one of her back legs which makes it easy for her to strain it. Something as simple as a bad step going up or down stairs can cause her to move slowly for weeks and do a sort of limp.

My neighbor had a lhaso, 2 of them actually, and one of them probably for about 3 years or more, walked with that weird dragging step that you described. I don't know what caused it, but I know she had it for a very long time and she still did her daily walks, which were quite long for a small dog. She lived to be 16.

Hopefully the vet will be able to give you some sort of answer and hopefully it isn't anything that is life altering.

Hannah is just darling. I think that every time I see you post somewhere and that little face looks out at me from the computer screen.

Hugs again,
Sharlene and molly muffin

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

I know very little about this other than when Crys was young her doc was always checking for what she called "knuckling" - she would take Crys' back feet, turn the toes so they were on the floor instead of the pads, and see if and how long it took Crys to put the foot right. They did this because of all her skeletal abnormalities to keep an eye on nerve damage that might occur...at least that is what they told me when I asked why they kept doing that. Then, that summer Squirt's pin came out of her knee, she would drag that foot from time to time upside down simply because it hurt too badly to put it right but she wasn't putting much weight on it either. Brick has one foot he drags a bit - the nails never quite clear the floor so he has a distinct gait and is easy to locate when he's on a hard surface. He does this as a result of the hydrocephalus...along with other oddities, but it sure doesn't slow him down! :p I can tell the days the pressure is greater than others based on his gait as well as other indicators. So, there are three who drug or drag a foot yet had no neurological issues that have taken their time away. ;) Brick has neurological issues, but he's 13 going on 14 and just as happy as a lark, full of life and love. :)

You seem to understand what other implications this might, MIGHT, have so I won't go there. ;) Just wanted you to know there are other reasons this could be happening and they could mean nothing. ;)

I am with you in trying to prepare myself for that day - and I'm not doing a very good job of it at all. The very idea literally takes my breath and clinches my gut into knots. I draw from the courage of so many here in the hopes some of that will be accessible when needed. Also like you, I do my best to make each day one of happy memories for us both, cherishing every wag, every bark, every grin.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

oh Julie, this made me so sad. I think it would be a long shot but over on the diabetic forum some of the dogs with diabetic neuropathy got some of their back leg strength back by taking B12 vitamins.

I don't want to think of the limited time we have with our animals either. it is so hard.

lots of hugs, Judi

[addy]

Julie, Zoe does the knuckle dragging with her one back leg. I can hear the toenails scrape.

The only thing that helped Zoe was excerise, walk very slowly, one day on, one day off, very slowly build distance. It took a long time to accomplish it and now that she has been so house bound, she is knuckle dragging again.

The vet used to test for neurological problems by having her stand and then bending each paw down so her knucles were on the floor and wait to see if and/or how long it took her to correct the foot position.

If Hannah has back issues maybe the knuckle dragging is not neurological.

Is Hannah happy today? Is she smiling at you? Does she want to eat or have a treat? Doe her eyes shine? If she is doing any of those things, just focus one one good thing.

One good thing a day. When my granddaughter spent time with me, my dogs were so alert and happy. I realized it was because we were happy. As hard as it was for me this morning, I told myself, smile and laugh for Zoe this morning so she smiles back. Our one good thing- no blood!!!!

Love you

[jmac]

Thanks for all the input, kind words, and suggestions, guys. I appreciate it very much.

Hannah got her laser treatment today. She also spent some time on a couple of hot spots she has from allergies. It went fine, but of course we don't know the cause for the occasional dragging. She does have good range of motion in both legs and also still has good muscle tone, according to the vet.

Because it is really bothering me, I decided to make an appointment at the vet that does the acupuncture. I requested the man we saw the first time, who was able to pinpoint the areas of soreness in her back. I am hoping he will be able to determine whether this is a disc issue or not. At this point I don't know whether I should be resting her due to injury or walking her to keep her muscle strength.

Before her laser treatment today I had her blood work done. Her ALKP is up a little bit since April. It was 250 today and was 186 in April, but that is still much better than the 1700 a year ago. He said it can rise a little bit with stress, pain, etc. so depending on what is going on with her it could be a factor. Neither of us are worried about that result. Her kidneys and electrolytes were fine, as was her ALT.

He said her Hematocrit is low though. It is at 37% and 37.3-55% is the normal range. He said we should not panic about this, but he does want to recheck again in 2-4 weeks because he is concerned about it continuing to drop, which would indicate she is anemic. He said I shouldn't need to worry about anything, but that I can periodically check her gum color in the meantime to be sure it is pink, although he expects it will be. He said if she becomes anemic they need to find the cause. Of course this is something new for me to worry about because I am a worrier.

I dug out the copies of her blood work over the past year and a half, and I found that her HCT level has bounced around. Back in Jan. it was only 35.3% but he said nothing about it! The month after it was 37.5%. Then in April it was 39%. Her MCV is also sometimes low, but bounces around. She has a consistently high platelet count as well, for the past two years, but he doesn't seem concerned about that.

I decided I am going to have it rechecked in two weeks and that I am also going to have a stool sample checked because it has been a long time since that has been done. I'm hoping and assuming there is no blood in her stool, but she is also biting and itching by her butt A LOT and I'm wondering if there could be a parasite or something. (She has had her anal glands expressed twice in the past 8 weeks-most recently two weeks ago, so I hope it isn't that again). I'm also going to call the vet to point out these fluctuations and see if we can make any sense of them. I tried to figure out if she was on certain meds at the times it was low, but I don't think that's the case.

There are just so many issues with my girl. The allergies may be the worst right now, followed by the toe dragging. She also feels really, really hot sometimes. Almost sweaty. Then it passes. The vet today said it may be allergy related when her skin is really irritated.

I thought again today about having to let her go when or if she is miserable and was wondering if she was close as I watched her scratch, bite, lick over and over for about 30 min. Then she seems to come out of it and acts happy and normal and wags her tail and barks at me for treats and gives me kisses. One positive is that her eyes look fabulous. They are SOOOOO much better since he has me putting the Tacrolimus in. And she still loves her mom. :)

I just have to come up with an action plan for what I'm going to do and then talk to myself about being calm and not being able to control the rest, but only to respond.

So, here's my plan:
1. Take her to the vet tomorrow for an evaluation of her back, legs, etc. to try to determine the issue with the dragging paw.
2. Have a stool sample checked to be sure things are okay.
3. Talk to my vet about the fluctuating HCT levels and the fact that it was even lower back in Jan.
4. Have blood work rechecked in two weeks.
5. Apply DermaPaw to sore spots from her itching each night before bed.
6. Love her and enjoy time with her each day.
7. Keep telling myself I can only respond to what happens and that it is not something I can control. (I'll need to practice this one a lot.) ;)

If anyone has any input, I always love to hear it. Otherwise, just please keep us in your thoughts. I'm worried about my girl.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Wow Julie, I think you have an excellent plan of action for Hannah. See what the vet says tomorrow. Either way you are going to be feel better for just having spoken to him and you can adapt for anything that you think or he thinks might be going on with her. I hope they can give you some good feedback on the leg issue as I know that is worrying you.
As long as she comes out of everything with the happy tail wiggle and kisses, then I think you're still doing okay. Hannah is probably trying to say "don't worry mom, it'll be okay"

Hugs,
Sharlene and the molly muffin

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

Did you and Hannah get to see the vet today to have her checked out for her back and leg?
Hoping all is well. Thinking of you.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Sharlene, thanks again for checking on us. It's so sweet of you!

We did go go the vet today. Hannah was pretty thoroughly evaluated by "Dr. Jim." He could tell that she has some back pain. I could see her close her eyes a little when he pressed her back. That was all she did to indicate pain. He didn't feel it was as bad as it has been in the past, but that it hurts her.

He seemed uncertain as to whether it is more intervertebral disc disease or spondylosis. He didn't think he could do any sort of adjustment and didn't think acupuncture was the best choice if she didn't do well last time. He recommended Gabapentin for pain once a day and suggested we do laser treatments in conjunction with it. It is a liquid version (60 mg/ml) and she will take .25 cc. I read about it and called back to make sure it doesn't contain xylitol. They said it is a special veterinary compounded version. She will also be trying Chu Shi Wei Ling Tang, a new herb, to see if it helps her allergies.

He wants me to continue to exercise her on very short walks a few times per day and to try walking her in high grass or sand to get her to lift her legs to maintain muscle.

I talked to the vet who does laser treatment and she wants to x-ray Hannah's back tomorrow to see if she sees any evidence of spondylosis or possibly any calcified discs. She's hopeful it might give us a bit more information about what's going on with her. Then she can laser her.

I did take a fecal sample in today as well. It hadn't been checked since 2007. Whoops! That's what happens when she doesn't go often and I don't have a sample when we go in for the yearly check up. We should have results tomorrow.

I'm super worried to start on more new drugs, but am going to take the plunge on the Gabapentin tonight and the herbs tomorrow. Any experience with either of these? Anything you think I should know?

Thanks guys!
Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

Well, I'm basically useless when it comes to knowledge of medicines and the herbs. But I am glad that there is a plan and if it helps Hannah, then it will be worth it. He thought this new herb should be in addition to the other herbs? I wonder if her back bothering her is causing the leg thing. Maybe a pinched nerve in a disc area. I'm not sure of the physiology, but my husband had a ruptured disc that can cause pain shooting down his leg, nerve, phantom pain even. He moves gingerly when it bothers him. His he controls through exercise. It just seems that a disc problem might have the same sort of effect on animals.

Gosh, that got long, I was just checking in to see how everyone one is doing tonight. I swear!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

I'm up early and stopping by to give you a



BIG HUG


I think the two of us need to do Skype Doga:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[jmac]

Sitting here at the vet while Hannah gets back xrays. I'm a nervous wreck because I'm worried she will be hurting more from struggling. Taking deep breaths, hoping we will at least have more information...
It's our 3rd day in a row at the vet. Ugh.
Julie & Hannah

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

hope she isn't too stressed Julie. We need a doggy version of catnip!

[addy]

and a human version but I think there is one but it is illegal:p:p

Oh Julie,

Skype Doga or our mantra

breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe ou:D:D

I know how upset you are.

((((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))))))

[jmac]

Thanks, guys. We made it.

Her x-ray did not show spondylosis. It showed a bit of narrowing between some of her vertebrae. Could be like a pinched nerve. Could be intervertebral disc disease. Neither vet thinks it is incredibly neurological because she has proprioceptive reflexes. (She flips her feet right side up when you bend her toes under). I have tested this at home periodically too and she does correct it.

They think the slight dragging of her left toes from time to time could be from it being weak because it compensates for her right leg, which is weaker, but they aren't sure. It could also be from some nerve pinching or nerve damage.

I am to continue giving the Gabapentin for pain and doing laser treatments and to walk her on short walks to maintain muscle. The laser treatments are $60 each or $150 for 3, so I can't keep that up on a regular basis. She had two this week. I'm going to do another early next week. Then I'll have two left that will have to be spread out a bit. I've already spent $500 this week. Obviously I spend a lot to take care of her, but we can't keep up hundreds of dollars every month on laser treatments alone.

Anyway, she is still walking, and so am I ;). I think she'll appreciate not going to the vet tomorrow or Sun. (At least I sure hope we don't have to).

I took my little Izzy for a nice long walk when we got home since she has been feeling left out while she's left at home. She sure loved it, and it was good for me too. But when I got home I heard Hannah barking from the bedroom where she was gated. She probably barked the whole time. Poor girl. Hopefully we can both enjoy a relaxing afternoon...maybe even a nap.

Addy, what is Skype Doga?? I'm intrigued. And thanks for making me laugh with the illegal human version of catnip!

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

So glad to hear that it wasn't spondylosis. Yay a break from the vets for a bit.

I know these babies of ours can sure add up the dollars. The list goes on and on of all the possibilities.

Still it does seems like Some good news today and that is always a good day.

Hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

I can tell my girl is getting worse. When she has gotten up from her last two naps on her doggy pillow, she is really wobbly. This last time she fell down to the side and on her butt three times and I had to help stabilize her so she could stand up. She then manages to walk okay, but this is a new sign. I tried to walk her a little earlier and she was pretty slow and not interested. I didn't have Izzy with us and sometimes that makes her not want to go, but even when I was bringing her back home she seemed to want to trot but couldn't. I have a gut feeling things are going to continue to decline... :(

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

I don't know when she had, or if she's had, the Gabapentin but it can make you feel and act drunk at first until the body adjusts to it. I hope this is what you are seeing or that it is nothing worse than this.

Keep your chin up, sweetie!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

oh I hope that is all it is, a reaction to the drug. She wasn't like that this morning was she Julie?

hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Leslie,

She took it last night at about 6:30. I did see that was a side effect, but she showed no signs of it before now. She seems to still walk okay, and just went potty, but getting up off of this pillow after being on her side seems to be pretty tough. I've noticed her back feet being closer together and a little bit of crossing them too. Not real good signs.

The worst part of this is the wondering. I just feel pretty certain that something with a nerve is going on, and since it is progressing, even with laser treatment and meds, that we might not see improvement this time. I've just been crying on and off all day. I hate the unknown. I just wish I knew if she is going to improve. I don't know what to prepare for. It doesn't help that my only other dog, Bailey, had to be put to sleep because he had complete paralysis in both back legs and never regained function. That has always been in my mind ever since she developed a back issue last Sept.

Right now I'm giving her lots of love and some treats...just trying to enjoy time with her.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

I think you are on the right track with the pinches nerve and all the handling in the last couple days might have aggravated it. It had to be done to know what was going on with her but you know how those nerves can be, tricky little buggers.
Hopefully this will not continue and a nice long relaxing weekend will see her recuperating nicely. That is what we are all going to pray for.
Having gone through the worst case scenario already with Bailey it is naturally even more scary to contemplate the same thing happening to Hannah. It isn't so though. Not yet. One day at a time remember. A wet doggie kiss can make things look a whole lot better. I bet Hannah wouldn't mind passing a few of those out right about now. :)

HUGS to you and Hannah and Izzy too

Sharlene and Molly muffin

[jmac]

The vet called and said I should not give Gabapentin again until Tues. He wants me to see if it is a possible reaction from the drug. I gave it at 6:30 last night and didn't see anything like this before 3:30 today, so it seems odd, but they want to rule that out as a possibility. I'm supposed to rest her for the weekend and see if she improves or if things get worse.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Julie, is there any other supplement Hannah is taking? When did you start giving her the Chinese Herbs? Did that in any way conicide with the difference in her legs? I am just asking because ervything has side effects even herbs. I am hoping it has something to do with that. Could it be the Gabertin does not work with the chiense herbs?

I am not trying to blame that just grasping at straws for a clue.

Love you

[molly muffin]

Those are all good ideas Addy. Start trying to eliminate and see if anything makes a difference, giving her plenty of time to adjust. There was one new chinese herb too wasn't there.

Sharlene

[jmac]

She did get a new herb and got it once as well. I didn't give it tonight either. It's weird. It is every time she has to get up from lying down for a while (20 min. or more, I'd say) she can't get up. It takes forever for her to push herself up. Then she is really wobbly for a bit. Then she seems fairly okay a little while later (but there are still some uneasy steps). But it is EVERY time she is lying down since about 3:30. I don't know what would be causing that. It's like she is losing the ability to push herself up.

Thanks for checking on us and for your ideas. I appreciate it more than you know.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Will Hannah let you handle her hip at all? I wonder, molly has one side of her hip/leg area that is weaker than the other, I think due to that joint, and having hurt it previously, but sometimes when she does get up, she limps on that side and if I just massage it gently, it seems to be better.

I''m still wondering though if a nerve didn't get pinched during her vet visit today. If so, think of the sciatic nerve and how it works in humans.

Does her rear feet still respond correctly if you turn them under? I see that the vet said that was working fine today when he checked, maybe make sure that is still the case.

I'm just throwing ideas out here with no real clue. :(

hugs to both you and Hannah
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Sharlene,

I just checked her reflexes again an hour ago and it still works. I got her to go potty a little while ago too. Then I put her in her little bed, cuddled with her, then bawled my eyes out for about 30 min. She doesn't seem to react when I touch her or pick her up. This sort of staggering walk, unsure of where their feet are, is indicative of a disc problem, so I am still focused on that. I left a message for the vet to call to tell me if we should use Metacam again. We did the last two times she had a back issue, just for 5 days, and it seemed to help. I just wish I knew what was wrong. I'm waiting for her to be unable to move the next time she tries to get out of that bed tomorrow morning. I am a mess.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

That is good that her foot is responding. :) NO paralysis if the foot is responding.

What I try with molly is when I see her start to get up, before she does, I go over and gently massage with my finger tips, her hip down her leg. Not her back. She will usually reflex her leg straight out behind her while I'm doing that and then when she goes to get up it is much easier for her. She also seems to like it, like it feels good to her. I think the Metacam is a good idea. If this a pain issue which could very well be. Especially if it is a disc problem as you suspect. You know her best and what she has gone through and how things affect her.

I Know this is horribly scary and unbearable to see her having any difficulties. Tomorrow is another day and we'll face it then. Together. I promise to wake up in the morning and come to the computer and check in on you and Hannah.

Try to get some sleep tonight. It is all much harder to face if you haven't had any proper rest. You and Hannah both.

HUGS,
Sharlene

[addy]

Good morning sweeties,

I hope everyone slept a bit. I think trying the Metcam is a good possibility, Julie.

Sending so much love for you and Hannah. Please let us know how she is today. Zoe has eye vet check early this am but I will stop late morning to check in on you. I am sure Sharlene will be here as well:)

Dont give up the faith, Julie, there has to be an answer.

I forgot to tell you how pleased I am Hannah's eyes are better. Zoe's look so much better too.

love you bunches

[Squirt's Mom]

Mornin' Julie,

How is Hannah doing? How was she during the night? Any word from the vet? How are you, sweetie?

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers for some answers and relief.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

just looking in to check on you and Hannah. Hoping for a positive turn today. Judi

[molly muffin]

I'm checking in as well. Hoping that Hannah is better this morning. You know we are all thinking of you and Hannah this morning.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[jmac]

Thank you all so much for checking on us. It means so much to me to know you're all thinking of us. Hannah was up a few times during the night to itch. She was actually standing twice and had gotten up without me seeing her. I was able to watch her get up this morning and it was slow, but she did it. She seems to be in good spirits. I'm hoping to hear from the vet about Metacam, but I would like to give it to see if it helps. I'll keep you updated.

Thanks again for being with me. Even though you're all far away, it feels like you're here. It helps so much.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

That sounds like progress! So glad to hear that Hannah seemed a bit better this morning.

The internet is a wonderful place, bringing all of us together from across the world and making us feel like we are just next door. :) Hugs Sharlene

[addy]

I am crossing my fingers that the vet okays the Metcam and it helps our litle Hannah.

Wish we were all right next store. We could all do lunch:D:D:D

Okay, Doga is yoga with your dog so we could all go on SKYPE and we could do simple yoga stretches with our pups while we are all on SKYPE!!

Now what could be better than that?

SKYPE DOGA, Addy style:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[jmac]

I finally heard from the vet who lasers Hannah and she asked if she wa on Tramadol. I said she was on no pain med because the holistic vet said to withhold the Gabapentin through at least Mon. to see if things corrected. I am not giving the herbs either. She is only taking Cosequin, Denamarin, Hydroxyzine and now Metacam.

Vet said to start the Metacam once daily through Mon. at least. She wants her to have something in case it is painful and wondered if getting up hurt and that is why she has a hard time with it. She will laser her Mon. at 10 a.m.

She thinks it sounds like disc disease at this point due to worsening symptoms. That is what I have been feeling as well. She has the signs with the unsteady, wobbly, back legs. I've seen it before with her (but not nearly this bad) and with other dogs. Never even saw it with my Bailey boy because he just got up one night and dragged both legs across the floor-straight paralyzed.

I am supposed to rest her and only let her walk a little to poop. She is a bit wobbly as she moves around. It is hard to watch. I hope there is a little improvement with the pain med and rest. I sure do hate the waiting...

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

I sure do hate the waiting...

I'll wait with you

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

how is Hannah today?

[jmac]

Hannah is about the same today. She has a hard time getting up from lying down and is a bit wobbly with her gait. The positions she gets her back legs just look sort of strange to me when she is lying down. I have also heard some quiet groans when I am picking her up to move her.

I have been taking her to my parents' house to poop the last couple of days because I want to keep her going every 24 hours (otherwise she has to strain to go and that can't be good with a sore back) and she really won't go without a walk. For some reason, a car trip usually works. They also have other dogs so smelling their yard usually does it. I'm trying to keep her still as much as possible.

Tomorrow she gets another laser treatment at 10:00. It's still just a waiting game...we may see improvement, we may not. It also may get worse. It takes SUCH a long time for it to heal in general...I'd say at least 6-8 weeks, and this time is the worst. So we wait.

Thanks for checking in, Judi! I hope you figure things out with Jenny's ACTH test and the pred. Glad to hear she is still doing well!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I am waiting with you. Keep the faith. I know six weeks is a long time, we just went through that with Zoe's eyes, as you well know becuase you spent a lot of time waiting with me. Thank you for that. Now it is my turn to wait with you.

You are doing a great job and Hannah is so lucky you are her mom because you are a really good one.:):)

Sending much love and hugs

[molly muffin]

Poor little Hannah. Glad the car trip works for her!
Crossing fingers that the laser gives her a bit of relief tomorrow.
So she has been through this before? 6 - 8 weeks seems so long..I feel for you and Hannah.

Will be checking in tomorrow to see how she is doing. Oh my gosh, molly is having a case of the toots right by my desk and it isn't pretty. ugh

Hugs,
Sharlene

[molly muffin]

Just checked out the pictures of Hannah and Izzy. Oh my gosh. Those two are way too adorable. I saw Bailey too. He was so adorable. I almost cried when I saw the one where you were cuddling on the couch and laughed of course as the supervision of stool one. She supervisors about like Molly does. She's there to make sure it happens but might need a nap if it takes longer than 5 minutes.

LOL, thanks for posting them!

Hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Hope your Monday is a good one and Hannah has a good day.

Thinking of you both and sending love and prayers

[molly muffin]

How did the laser treatment go?

[jmac]

Hi guys,

The laser treatment went fine. The vet said Hannah's back muscles are really tense-almost hard like rocks. She said she is probably compensating or guarding her pain, like we would. She recommended we add a muscle relaxant, methocarbamol, to the mix. She also suggested seeing an animal chiropractor (she knows a woman who only treats dogs and horses) but I am a little worried about that. She did say the woman won't do an adjustment if she is worried about a disc issue, but I just don't know if I am ready for that yet. We'll try the muscle relaxants first.

Now she will be on Hydroxyzine for allergies, Metacam for pain, and methocarbamol to relax her muscles (2-3 times/day). I have not added the herbs back in, and I am not going to add the Gabapentin right away either. I am like Addy. One thing at a time so I have a better clue of what might be going on if there are reactions. I guess I could give all of them together, but I would prefer not to. I asked about possible side effects from methocarbamol, since she has never taken it, and the most likely is sedation.

I have decided that for today I will give the Hydroxyzine twice (and skip the 3rd one tonight) and I'll give the methocarbamol before bed. I am always so worried to give new meds, but it sounds like it could really provide her some relief and it is listed for helping with back spasms and disc disease.

I have a call in to the other vet just to run it past them. The guy we saw is out of town for a week (of course) but someone else will call me back. She is about the same. She has a tough time getting up (but it is worse when she has been asleep or lying down for a long time), is a little wobbly on her feet at times, but them sometimes I am having to keep her calm because she is trying to run away from me or trot to the kitchen to look for food or beg for treats. It must not be as bad at times.

Thanks for checking on us!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Oh Julie, maybe the muscle relaxer will do the trick. I sure hope so.

Did anyone ever say if you could put cold or warm compresses on Hannah? I just wondered if that was someone you could try.

Love ya bunches and I thought you did a really good scream today.

I think Sharlene needs to have more Scream Mondays!!!!!:D;)

[molly muffin]

Good idea muscle relaxers. I hope they work. I wonder if they have something similiar to human ibprophen, that combinations of muscle relaxer and anti - inflammatory all in one.

Glad laser went well.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

glad the laser went well Julie. do they think the chiropractor would be better than the acupuncturist? hope you and Hannah had a good night

[molly muffin]

Hope you and Hannah and Izzy are having a good day!

Hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

I hope the pills relaxed the back:):):)

Thinking good thoughts for both of you.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

I need positive vibes and prayers for tomorrow....Hannah is trying acupuncture again. The vet who performed it after the other dog shook her is going to do it. She said we could try it again, and if Hannah is not doing well we can just leave. I want to try it because it helped, but I hope it isn't horrible because then I'll feel bad. We go at 9:30 in the morning and my mom is coming with us. I'm glad it will be over with early. I've been wondering how many of Izzy's Xanax I would need to take to be calm. ;) :p

We have another laser treatment on Fri. so hopefully all this is helping her. It's hard to tell. The muscle relaxant went fine. I gave it this morning too and I'm about to give it again.

I'll let you know how it goes...

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Well at least you know this acupuncturist and are familiar with her, so no surprises. Hopefully it will go well and help Hannah. I'm glad your mom is going with you. Two thumbs up for moms. :)

We are all about positive vibes and prayers! Right there with you!

Hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Hoping for a good visit with no flying needles;);););)

[jmac]

No flying needles, Addy!!!

We (yes, I said WE) survived the acupuncture. I did my best to remain calm so she did not pick up my nervousness. She struggled a little with two of the needles-the one that goes in the back leg and one in the tail, but it was a small groan, not quite a yelp. The rest of them actually went in pretty easily and I held her in my lap while the needles were in.

We fed her tiny pieces of her favorite treat during the procedure, which seems to help. I sure hope it gives her some relief. I made another appointment for next week. Hopefully there will be some small improvement by then. We get another laser treatment on Friday.

Her right leg is definitely weak-both vets notice right away. She did not needle her right leg, and did the left instead. She said it is good to see some reaction on the leg needle-if you don't it means the energy can't move around. That makes me feel better to know she should react. Now I just need her to poop today and then I can relax too.

I get a little nervous because the vet who does the laser seems to want to see faster improvement, but her improvement has been very gradual the other two times we have gone through this. I will be curious what the acupuncture vet says next week.

Julie & Hannah

[frijole]

Great. I think I told you that acupuncture helped Annie a great deal. I truly believe it gave her a year more of life. Who is to say... but she'd go in 'worn out' and come out rejuvinated and with a huge smile on her face. (the photo in my album of her in the carseat was right after a session)

I think it is very important that you have the same vet each time. I didn't have to worry about it as only one was certified. They have different techniques and trust is certainly at play here... Annie was petrified at first too but she got over it and learned to absolutely love it. She would run into the vets office from the car.. that tells you all you need to know. :D

Also they wouldn't let me hold her as she was too squeamish with me there. They had one of the 'helpers' hold her for the sessions. It worked out better.

Anyway.. hope today's session provides some relief!! Kim

[molly muffin]

Hope the acupuncture has helped Hannah.

Sometimes the road just is a slower travel than others. As long as in the end it is all well. :)

Glad you survived too Julie!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

My girl is definitely not getting better. She is more wobbly and unsteady on her feet and is slipping/falling down on her butt more. I don't know if she is losing feeling in her back legs or if they are just getting a lot weaker. She can't even take a step on anything not carpeted and is so wobbly, even on carpet. It was pretty hard for her to poop today; her back legs just wobbled in and out and she was walking and wobbling and groaning. I don't have a good feeling about her improving. I know sometimes they can seem worse for a while after acupuncture, but I don't think it's like this. I just wish I knew if it was from weakness or neurological issues. She is kind of a mess and I don't think anyone knows what to do to make it better.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Well, when I asked about Zoe today, IMS said if she had a pinched nerve in her neck, the prescription would be six weeks of rest, no walking.

Julie, Zoe is pretty much a slipping and a sliding and falling too:mad::confused: Sometimes it is worse than others but the little stinker walked just fine for the IMS:rolleyes:

Sweetie, dont give up hope yet.

Healing prayers and much love

[molly muffin]

Oh Julie, I do hope that Hannah will eventually show some improvements. Maybe it is a pinched nerve like they said Zoe has. No walks and rest. Give it some time sweetie and see how she does. I know you are worried something awful for her.

HUGS,
Sharlene

[Squirt's Mom]

Hang in there, sweetie. I thought of you and Hannah last nite as I watched Squirt waddling down the hall to bed. Not that long ago she would have been bouncing and hopping down the hall and it brought a lump to my throat to think how many of us see our babies slowing down, losing ground but still fighting. And we fight along side them. You and Hannah are a formidable team...don't you forget that. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

it's so hard to watch them struggle. hugs, Judi

[addy]

Weekend check in on you and Hannah:):):):):)

I hope you are cuddled up with Hannah and a good book:)

Zoe's napping with hubby and I cant concentrate on my book. :rolleyes:
Cant clean, I dont want to wake them up;);) Good excuse not to do chores, no?

Love ya

[molly muffin]

Hi thought I'd check and see how you and Hannah are doing :)

Hope you are having a good weekend.
Hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Thanks for checking on us Addy and Sharlene.

Friday afternoon when I got home from running some errands, Hannah came out from the bedroom (where I gate them) basically dragging her left back leg, but it wasn't toes down. It was sort of out to the side, still pads down. She was acting fine but it looked terrible. Within a minute though, it was corrected. It was almost like it was asleep or something. I don't get it.

Aside from that, she was basically up and down every day...like a roller coaster. She would seem a little better, then be falling down or sliding everywhere, or walking at an angle. I haven't been able to figure it out.

We got laser treatment Friday. She did a really thorough exam and watched how Hannah stood, walked, etc. She had tons of questions for me. Basically, we don't know what it is. Could be a disc issue, could be a neurological thing and some peripheral nerve issue. She may not be in pain at all if it is a nerve issue. Vet suggested we back up again and withhold pain med and muscle relaxants for the weekend to see how Hannah did. She wanted to see if she showed signs of being painful, and also if there was any sign of improvement (in case for some bizarre reason a med was causing any strange side effects with the up and down stuff).

Anyway, Hannah hasn't really had a terrible "down" on the roller coaster since Friday afternoon. I don't know if the laser helped (she also did her hips and legs in case her legs are sore) or if it was an issue with the meds, or if she is just doing a little better. Pooping was horrible on Sat. though. She could barely get in the position to go and could barely get it out and was lifting her back feet off the ground, grunting, smashing her butt into the ground, etc. It was like she couldn't get the last little bit out. I finally picked her up and had to wipe her back end when I took her in. Yesterday she didn't have much trouble though. So, again, I don't know.

The vet who did the acupuncture called Sat. and agreed with the plan. She said her own dog is going through something similar for the past couple of months. She doesn't know what the cause is. Looks like we could be dealing with this long term...she is calling today to see how Hannah is.

We have acupuncture again on Wed. I'll be curious to see if she notices any differences at that point. I am glad she seems stable at least. She isn't falling all over the place, so that is a good sign.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

It is so hard to not know what is wrong with them sometimes, cause and effect, what should we do, etc. You are such a good mom to Hannah. If anyone can get to the bottom of it, you can. You know her so very well. Hang in there, Julie.

Since I cut back on Zoe's Tramadol her falling is not as severe as it was. Of course she has her super banadage on and I often wonder if that is not giving her support somehow on the front leg and it has nothing to do with the Tramadol. She did not fall like that when she was on the Tramdadol for her eyes so:confused::confused::confused::confused

Sending you love and hugs


(((((((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))

[molly muffin]

Hannah sure does like to keep you on your toes. :) She is so sweet. Whatever it is and whatever is causing this, you and your team are right there to figure it out. Hopefully Soon, there will be some sign of what the underlying cause is.

We're right here with you and you know where to find us when you want to have a chat.

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

saying hi and love you:D:D:D:D:D:D

head for cover- in coming hugs all around


(((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))

(((((((((((((((((((((((big hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))

((((((((((((((((((((((((((bigger hugs)))))))))))))))))))))


(((((((((((((((( hugs on steriods)))))))))))))))))))))

[molly muffin]

Waiting to see how the acupuncture goes today and how they think Hannah is doing.

Best of luck!
Hugs,
Sharlene

[molly muffin]

Hey Julie. I know you're super busy setting up your class and all right now. When you get a chance, let us know who Hannah's last acupuncture went and what they said.
How is she doing? How are YOU doing?
Know we are thinking of you. :)

hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

I've been really busy getting ready for a new school year. Tomorrow I go back officially (I worked all last week), but the kids don't start until after labor day.

Hannah's acupuncture went well Wed. She sat calmly with the needles in for about 10 min. which was good. She did not like them inserted much though. She seemed to be doing much better as of Fri. She was starting to trot again (but still dragging the back left foot) and had more energy. She got laser treatment on Sat. on her legs and back. She seems a little worse again yesterday and today-not trying to trot. I don't know if she over exerted herself or what. She is doing okay though.

The vet who does the acupuncture is out of town this week, so I had to decide if I should wait a week for acupuncture or see another vet. I am worried about another vet since Hannah has done well with this one and she is so good with Hannah. I scheduled it for two weeks out,but left them a message to get their opinion on if it might be better to see Dr. Jim (she did okay with him several months ago) to not impede any healing.

They still don't know if it is a disc or something else, or both. They also both have mentioned that her back legs are really weak, so some of the dragging could be from that. We may have to try some strengthening exercises, but they don't want to rush into anything now.

Dr. Nicole, who I love, said if she is showing improvement she thinks we should do another acupuncture and see how she is. I don't think they really expected her to fully recover this time, but were pretty encouraged with what I said about the trotting on Friday. Now I don't know again. She got my hopes up and now we have kind of gone back a couple of steps. It is a mystery.

The vet who does the laser mentioned considering trying prednisone as a last resort. She is hesitant because of the Cushing's, of course, but said since Hannah really has no strong symptoms she wasn't as worried as she would be otherwise. She said this would be what we would try if we felt we had exhausted everything else without improvement. She is worried it could also push her into full-blown Cushing's. For now, I'm not thinking about it. I see it as something I would try before we would put her to sleep because things were really bad.

I'm trying to take one day at a time. I will be really stressed with work the next couple of weeks, so I hope she can hang in there and stay stable for a while. I also know that I cannot afford to keep up weekly acupuncture and/or laser treatments if that is what she would need to maintain her current level of functioning. That would cost several hundreds of dollars per month. I am only continuing it at this point to see if she can recover from this latest issue. If she hasn't in a week or two, then we will have to see how she does and figure out where to go from there.

Thanks for keeping us in your thoughts...

Julie & Hannah

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Julie: thanks for updating. I hope she continues to improve but I definitely understand the lack of funds for continuous expensive treatment.

I hope the beginning of the school year goes well. My husband just got his principal license this summer and accepted a last minute job offer on Thursday. Talk about a whirlwind. Hope things go well for both of you! Judi

[addy]

It sounds hopeful because she did show improvement. I hope Hannah goes a few steps forward again. I understand the money issues only too well. I dont even want to think about Zoe's bills for the last two years:eek::eek::eek:

Good luck with the new school year!!!! That is exciting.

Hang in there, Julie.

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Julie-

It sounds like you're on a real roller coaster ride. I imagine it is very distressing for you. It is always so very hard for me when the pups are suffering and we cannot explain to them what they are going through and why and what we are trying to do to make their lives better or at least more comfortable. Having to take into consideration the amount of money that each procedure costs only adds to our burdens.

I am thinking of you and Hannah and hope you have seen some positive signs over the weekend.

-Susan

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

I hope Hannah's procedures will start to have some benefit that lasts longer and longer. I'm not sure how those procedures actually work, but it would make sense there would an accumulative effect as the treatments progress. I hope that is the case with Hannah and you are soon seeing more of your old girl's self coming out.

Have fun in school! I have to admire those who teach and work in the school systems - I would be in jail the first week! :p So, in my book, you are all very special people who take a whole bunch of crap from every corner with very little equitable compensation. In other words, heroes. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie! How is Hannah doing? Hope she continues to get better.
How is school preparations going? Hope you get a fun class this year!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Hi Julie,

Happy Labor Day!

I am a wee bit worried about you and Hannah. I hope things are okay and you have been busy getting ready for the school year.

Let us know when you have a chance.

Sending many hugs

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Sorry I've been MIA lately. You're right, Addy, I have been busy getting ready for the school year. Last week was lots of meeting and preparation for the year, but there is never enough time to get things ready, so I usually work late most nights. I switched all of my files over to hanging files this summer too, so that was a pretty big project. I love how organized everything is though! I also de-cluttered in my room so it is more open and calm feeling, probably just for me, but I needed it! :D

I've been working a lot this weekend too. I like to be as prepared as I possibly can with routines, procedures, and activities to ensure things go as smoothly as possible. Yesterday I was running around getting things laminated and buying stuff for some of the team building games I'm going to have the kids play.

Thankfully, Hannah is holding steady for the most part. She is no longer having difficulty getting up from lying down, and she isn't doing so many strange things with her left back leg. She occasionally wants to trot outside, but the back left toes drag. For the most part, she walks pretty slowly, but she is still walking, so I am happy with that!

She had acupuncture and a laser treatment (at the same time because the vet who does acupuncture now has the laser) on Friday. We had to see a different vet from the one who has been doing the acupuncture most recently. We saw him last September for acupuncture when she first had problems and it went okay, but he doesn't quite have the same caring and patient personality Dr. Nicole has. Hannah did okay Friday, but really struggled with the needle insertion. He told me he doesn't remember ever having a dog who struggled so much. I wasn't sure what to do with that statement. Am I supposed to reprimand her or something? I just thought it was kind of strange. Obviously I don't like to watch my poor dog struggle anyway. At any rate we got through it fine. She was calm after he got the needles in.

We are going to get another acupuncture (and possibly laser) treatment next week with Dr. Nicole, and then we will see how she's doing. That will have been four treatments. I told them I cannot afford to keep this up indefinitely. He suggested one more treatment, then possibly some laser treatments for a few weeks (would only be $180 total) and then probably a laser every 3-4 weeks. At this point I think we are waiting to see if there is any more improvement, or just maintaining where we are. They charge about half the price for laser, which is wonderful. I can get 6 treatments for $180 and I was paying $150 for 3. A tech does it at this clinic, rather than a vet, but that's fine with me.

We all agree that Hannah doesn't seem to be in pain and that is everyone's first concern. Her back was not as tense Friday. He said he really could not evaluate her though because she just tried so hard to get back to me whenever he tried to do anything. So he mostly went by what I described at home. They still think there may be some neurological thing going on with the back left leg, but don't really know.

Peeing and pooping are going okay for now too, although Hannah has decided she will not poop in our yard or if we walk down our street. I don't know why. So for the last 2 weeks I've been driving her to a park about 6 blocks away to poop. She loves to smell a few trees and posts and then without fail, she poops. It never takes more than a minute. I'm pretty sure she has me trained on this one, but it is so difficult for her to go if she misses a day, that I would rather keep up with this than deal with the alternative. I'm thinking I might phase it down to every other day and see if the short walk here on our street at least keeps things moving.

I try to not think about the future because I know winter will be extremely difficult. She had a tough time on the icy snow last year and she is so much weaker and so unsteady on her back legs that I fear it will be a disaster. We may have to try to figure out another plan. Right now I am just glad she is doing okay because the next couple of weeks are really stressful and busy for me. If she can stay stable that will help me stay sane! :p

Again, sorry I haven't been around much. I haven't forgotten you, and I still try to check in at least once a day. I just don't have the capacity to be as diligent as I would like.

Thanks for checking in on us and thinking of us!

Julie & Hannah

[Bailey's Mom]

Great to hear from you Julie and glad Hannah is hanging in there fairly well. I think (not that you asked) that I would mention to Dr. Nicole the struggle Hannah had with the other doc and how she kept trying to get back to you. Tell Dr. Nicole of the other doc's comment and ask her opinion on the whole scenario. I think at the very least Dr. Nicole should be aware of your experience.

I guess this is your last day off for a bit. What age kids do you teach?

-Susan

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

Happy to hear from you. Figured you were busy as this is a hectic time of the year. I'm glad that Hannah appears to be a bit improved. Enough to walk slowly at least and get up and down.
I hate the ice and snow thing in the winter. All that slipping and sliding is not good for us our precious pups.

Take care, check in when you have time!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

So glad to hear about any improvement for Hannah. I am not looking forward to the ice and snow either but maybe it will be like last year, a mild, no snow winter. Of course then allergies will be worse. I think we can't win.:):(

I was hoping you were busy and glad to hear you were. I worry about you and Hannah when I know you are both having a hard time.

Not to worry about things here. You just take care of yourself, your class and Hannah and Izzy. I think she did train you well to go to the park every day. Good job Hannah!!!!:D:D

Happy New School Year!!!!!

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Thought I'd post an update on Hannah. First, I am happy to say her back is much better (we think she is pain free) and she is walking quite well and sometimes even trotting. I continue to be amazed at the wonders of acupuncture. She had four treatments (one per week) and we did laser immediately after the last two acupuncture treatments. The plan for now is a laser treatment this week (it will be almost two weeks since the last acupuncture) and then maybe just try laser treatments every 2-4 weeks to keep things under control. Another possibility is to do acupuncture every six to eight weeks.

Unfortunately, with this good news comes some bad news. First, Hannah's allergies are terrible. She had skin irritations all over-her chin, neck, groin, tail...and I knew she had to see the vet. My parents took her for me during the day on Friday. She got Clavamox and GentaVed (a spray steroid) that I need to use twice per day for two weeks. It does seem to be providing her some relief, thankfully. She has been wearing a cone for about 10 days, but I have to do something to control her urge to scratch and lick. The spray seems to have already reduced the redness significantly. I hope it isn't going to affect any Cushing's issues by being sprayed on her skin short-term.

The second part of the bad news is that she had blood work done again on Friday because last month her blood work showed low hemoglobin and hematocrit so the vet was worried about her possibly being anemic. I looked back at past blood work and saw that it was sometimes low, but then would be back up in the normal range. He had not noticed that until I told him, but said we needed to monitor it closely and do another test in 2 weeks to a month. It was worse again this time. Her hemoglobin, hematocrit, MCV, and MCH. At this point they are not horribly low, but lower than last time. The results came in the mail yesterday (since they mailed them Friday afternoon) but I have not yet talked to the vet about them. Basically he told me last month that there isn't much to treat anemia other than finding the underlying cause. She did have a stool sample checked last month and everything was clear-so no traces of blood. She also has high platelets and they have continued to get higher. Her Chloride was also a little high this time-I've never seen that one off before.

From my reading, it sounds like there could be something wrong in her bone marrow. I'm going to see what the vet says, of course, but I would not pursue any sort of bone marrow biopsy at this point. I just wish I knew what was going on. We've fixed one thing and now are onto another issue, which could be pretty serious. I'm very worried about it, especially because my vet seemed so concerned last month. So, I guess I'll see what he has to say when we talk.

She still seems happy and healthy at this point, and like Addy says, I try to make the most of every day because I have no idea how long she has, and I've assumed we were close to the end so many times for the past year. It was last Sept. 27th that we went to the ER vet with her first back issue. It was my anniversary so I remember it very well; it was not how I planned to spend it. It's now been almost a year and there have been many ups and downs.

Hannah got her face trimmed, nails trimmed, and sanitary area cleaned up today instead of getting a regular grooming, which was planned. Luckily, it went okay and I just held her while she did it. Her hair is not that long and I didn't want to risk putting her through grooming after just getting better. I was worried the grooming caused it in the first place.

I talked to the groomer last week about how to groom Hannah from this point forward. I explained the situation, which I'm sure is hard to completely understand over the phone), and she asked me if I had thought about letting Hannah go. Not as in not being groomed, but as in should I put her to sleep. I really like this woman, and she has done a great job with my dogs and always does little extras at no charge, but this bothered me. She really hesitated before saying it, and really meant well, but I didn't like it. I explained that she was nowhere near that point and that she had drastically improved, but that I just didn't want to put her through a strenuous grooming session and wondered if I could stay with her to help/if I should try the bath at home and have her do the cut/etc. She was receptive to any of these options, but it still bothered me that she asked. The plan is to go in a few weeks and I will bathe her the day before and then bring her in the next day and stay with her while she cuts her hair.

I apologize again for being so absent from the site. I have been working 12 hours most days since school started, and often work from home in the evening before I go to bed. I try to check in daily, but have not been able to post much. Lately with all the meds Hannah has been taking, the morning and evening routine have felt like part-time jobs. Luckily I don't have to get up in the middle of the night for any meds, but it is about a 30 minute process in the morning to feed her, give all the meds in the right order and at the right time, and get her outside and then back in her cone for the day. Of course I love her and will gladly do it, but I am definitely tired and wishing for more sleep. My class has been great so far, so I am incredibly grateful not to be feeling stressed out because of student behavior.

If anyone has any suggestions or thoughts about Hannah's blood work or any more info. about what this could mean, I would love to hear it. I will let you know what the vet says when I hear from him. Sorry for the very long post. I just wanted to share everything on my mind at once.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

I cant help with the blood work but hopefully someone else can. I am so happy Hannah is trotting and walking better. I know that sinking feeling from when Zoe was falling down and smashing her chin after her surgery. It is so hard to watch.

I am not advocating this but, the owner of our Pet Outpost has a little bichon poodle mix. He had such bad allergies, all the vets told her to put him down that there was nothing more they could do. She switched him to a commercial raw diet and after a few months his skin healed and his hair starting growing back. She has to rotate his protein every few months but he has done really well.

So you, Marie and I all have anniversaries coming up, almost the same week:D:D:D It is a small world.

Don't worry about the forum, we know you have your hands full. I know how much time it takes from my own experience with Zoe for feeding and potty breaks and medicine before work. Did I tell you my boss has just started to figure out I never changed my hours back?;););) With it starting to get light out so much later, I will probably switch back at the end of the month.

I know how hard things are right know, sweetie. All we can do is take it one day at a time and be happy for each extra day we have.

I love the thought that we were both in the car yesterday cuddling with our two pups:D:D:D:D When I read that, I still cant wipe the smile off my face.

Warm, fuzzy thoughts for you, Julie. Kisses to Izzy and Hannah.

With all the commotion and to do in the news lately, I want to make sure I thank you for being a teacher. Many years ago, my hubby was a principal in Harlem. He had so many interesting and moving stories to tell. So, I have such respect for our teachers and am always thankful for anyone in the profession.:):):)

love ya

[Steph n' Ella]

When Ella's blood work came up with mild, non-regenerative anemia, her breeder was immediately worried about autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA). Vets think there is a genetic component to AIHA and it run is some lines of English Cockers.

After 8 weeks of super-strong antibiotics, Ella's anemia resolved and I am hoping that it was just a result of a bladder infection (but then again she was just on the low end of the range in her pre-op blood work last month...and I KNOW she was infection-free then...arg!)

This can be linked to rheumatoid arthritis in dogs...I am thinking about all of poor Hanna's back/leg pain... :confused: :confused: I really hope this is not the case for poor lil Hanna.

[molly muffin]

So glad to hear that Hannah's legs and back seem to be better. I'm sure it is very hard trying to keep up with Hannah and Izzy and the kids at school. :)
Hopefully her next blood work will show better numbers on the blood work.

hugs,
Sharlene

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

How is Hannah doing? How is school going? Can you believe that it is already almost a month that you've been back at school! Time sure seems to fly. I hope you are both doing well.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Ask4alarcon]

Hi Julie. I am new to this forum. However ever since I joined this forum I have read your whole post. I am waiting to see how your poor Hannah is doing. I too have a cushpup. I am reading yours because I also don't want to give those medications. Please update.
Thanks Rose and Napoleon

[jmac]

Hi Everyone-

I apologize for being absent for so long. I did still occasionally check the forum, but I have been crazy busy with work, and have not even been checking my facebook page much, which is pretty unheard of for me. I am in the midst of parent-teacher conferences too, so there have been some long days.

Hannah is doing very well. Her back has healed again (I am a firm believer in the miracles of acupuncture) after having four treatments (one per week) of acupuncture and a few laser treatments. The last two times we did acupuncture followed by laser. She got groomed last weekend, which was also very stressful for me, because that is what may have caused some of the issues the first time. She got a laser treatment on Fri. because the vet felt it would be better to do it first. I bathed her myself on Sat. and took her to the groomer for the haircut on Sun. I stayed with her and held her or supported her the whole time. It went very well. She is still happily trotting on her walks.

Her allergies have been pretty bad. She has been wearing a cone for a month (almost 24 hours a day) and has had a couple of skin infections. We have been using the steroid spray as needed because now the cone itself irritates her neck at times. :(

She was just retested to see how her hematocrit level was (because the vet was worried about anemia) and her levels were back up a bit, and into the normal range. I was thrilled about this good news. He sent her blood out to be checked (at no cost to me, which was also wonderful) because it was a much more expensive and sensitive piece of equipment and it was even a little better according to them. He still feels that she is borderline anemic and we should continue to monitor it, but they know she is not bleeding internally because they checked her stool and something about her cells not needing to regenerate to keep up with blood loss.

I am so thankful for literally each and every day that she is well. And now well means something different that it did a couple of years ago. If she eats, trots on a walk, poops, and wags her tail, it has been a good day. I give her tons of hugs and kisses every day, but I wish I had more quality time to spend cuddling with her and Izzy.

This is my tenth year teaching, but it is the busiest I have ever felt at the beginning of the year. We have some new initiatives and I am on some new committees and doing extra things at work, but I feel like I have little time left for my own life. I have been feeling guilty for not calling friends back, for not being on the forum, for not being home with my dogs more, and for neglecting my husband because I am working or sleeping when I am home.
I do hope things will calm down a bit after conferences next week. My husband and I are going to try to get away for a couple of days when we have some time off next week, but I am worried about leaving the dogs with my parents. I know it would be good for me, but we'll see. I still do check in from time to time and I want you to know I think of all of you daily.

Rose, Sharlene, Steph, Addy-my Hannah is okay. Thanks for checking on us, and I am so sorry I have not responded for so long. Rose, I will try to read up on Napolean and see if I can be of any help.

Thinking of all of you! I hope to be back up to par on here again very soon!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Rose, Sharlene, Steph, Addy-my Hannah is okay

then I can smile for I worry about you two.:D:D

so glad to read this.

[Steph n' Ella]

Yay! Try not to work tooo hard...Lol! <<-------Pot calling the kettle black!

[jmac]

Hi guys,

I have an update on Hannah. We have a new development and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Hannah went in to have her blood work done again yesterday. They have been monitoring her hemoglobin and hematocrit because she was borderline anemic a couple of times. Last month it was normal, but her ALKP was up a little bit, at 465.

The vet called me today and told me her hemoglobin and hematocrit were okay, but her liver values are BOTH up. Her ALKP is 772 and her ALT was 240 (normal range is up to 100). She has never had elevated ALT before. The vet said he wasn't sure what to think. She has been on Denamarin for about a year and a half, and we haven't changed anythings else. I am nervous because I know it is more concerning when the ALT levels are high. He said they usually start by running a course of antibiotics and metronidazole (flagyl) in case there is some infection causing this. Hannah will be start the meds tomorrow for 14 days and then he wants to recheck. If her ALT is still elevated, he wants to do more testing, probably another ultrasound. A month ago, her ALT was 89. I just don't know what to think.

I did leave a message tonight to ask the vet if there is any chance she could have a tooth infection causing this. He did not do her yearly dental last spring because she had so many other issues. He said her teeth looked okay and since she was having so many other issues he didn't think she really needed one. Hannah has had many teeth pulled; I think she has about 10 left. So I know she doesn't have good teeth. I don't know what I would even want to do if they wanted to do a dental since her liver values are not good, but I'm trying to figure something out.

For now, I'm trying to just tell myself to wait the two weeks and see what happens. It stinks that it will be right around Thanksgiving and my birthday (11/26). The last thing I want is to find out she has a liver tumor on my birthday or something.

Hannah's doing pretty well otherwise. Her back is great and we get laser treatment every 3 weeks. Her allergies are still bad, but she is a happy girl and is not showing any signs of illness.

Any advice or thoughts you have are much appreciated.

Thanks!

Julie & Hannah

[frijole]

Sorry I can't help - hope that Deb sees this as she understands bloodwork! I assume you haven't noticed any symptoms that are new or you would have mentioned them. Sending love and healthy thoughts your way! Kim

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

That is great that Hannah's back is doing so much better.

You know, Molly's ALT's went up like that in March and she had diarrhea, etc. The vet I have, thinks it was a stomach bacterial upset of some sort. Only it seems that the ALT can go up for any reason that could cause the liver to be involved and damaged. It seems to take much longer for the values to come down. Molly was on the antibiotics and the flora stuff for a long time and while the numbers started to come down, they hadn't reached normal yet.

So could be anything really causing it and wait and see what the antibiotics do for her. Retest and see if the ALT starts to come down. Just be aware that it could take longer to come down than it did for them to go up.

Do hope Deb sees it, she'll know a lot more about it.

On a separate note. I hope school is going well for you. Thanksgiving coming soon!

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Hey Julie,

Thi has some good info for you to read:

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=325515&sk=&date=&pageID=2

FYI- metronidazole can also affect the liver

I am sorry you have to be worrying about this with your birthday and turkey day approaching (Happy Almost Birthday To You!!!!!)

Hannah does not have a liver tumor- dont even go there girlfriend.

Hugs and Bigger Hugs and Biggest HUGS EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Julie-I think we always have enough on our plates just to deal with what we know.....not project any "what-ifs." Don't go borrowing trouble. Do the meds and retest in two weeks.
Hugs to you and Hannah.
-Susan

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Julie,

You're sounding a bit like me and that can be dangerous, friend! :eek::p

Right off hand I can't think who but we have seen all those nasty liver values come down in other pups as well as the ALKP - which I am repeatedly told not to worry about. Like that does any good. :rolleyes:;) When we were still in TN, the IMS sat for about 20 minutes explaining to me what a wonderful organ the liver is, how much total abuse it can take and come out unscathed, how it is one of the only organs that can regenerate itself, healing itself, and what a wonderful barometer the liver is for the rest of the body. So don't panic just yet. You are doing a wonderful job caring for Hannah and I know you will continue to do just that.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for offering me your thoughts and your reminders to just take things one day at a time. I always jump to the worst case scenario for everything. It seems easier to prepare for the worst somehow, but I am definitely trying to be better about that. I have the quote "worrying will never change the outcome" saved on my desktop and I open it whenever I need a little reminder; unfortunately, the thing I do best is worry! I am happy to report that I am doing very well just giving the meds and not worrying about what will happen in a couple of weeks. Thank you for helping with that! I will take Hannah in the day after Thanksgiving to have things checked again. And we will go from there. I did talk to my vet Thursday to ask if she could have an infection in her mouth from no dental last summer. He said that because she has been on and off antibiotics from skin infections from allergies he didn't think so. But I know it has been at least two months that she hasn't been on an antibiotic because she's been wearing the cone. We will see what happens in a couple of weeks, I guess.

Hannah seems to be doing well and is happy. She got her face trimmed up and her toenails trimmed yesterday. Then my mom helped me give her a bath and she was so stinkin' cute after...trotting around looking for treats and doing her best to look cute, tilting her little head to the side and staring at us, just hoping for another. You'd never know anything at all was wrong with her...or that she was 13! :D

I am actually looking forward to this freezing weather we are supposed to have the next couple of days because I am hoping Hannah's allergies will stop. I would love to get her out of the cone. She would love it too!

I appreciate knowing I have your support and advice and that everyone here "gets" how it feels when something is wrong with my dog. Don't know how I would make it without all of you!

Julie & Hannah

[Tina]

Hi Julie,

Thank you for checking in on Jasper and me, and your kind words. I first want to say what a cutie Hannah is. My Mom has an 11 yr old Shih Tzu named Sassy and she is just a sweet little thing.

I have been reading in your thread and others for quite some time, but am not always able to post on everyone. I am so glad to read that Hannah's back is doing well. I remember first reading about her laser treatments on your thread and asking my vet about that for future reference. I wish I knew more about lab results to be able to offer some feedback there, but I just don't. I usually go on the internet to read about everything, and then like you, I worry myself sick. You sound a lot like me with the worry, I try not to, but it always creeps in. Even though rationally I know it does not help or change the outcome like you said. I need lots of help with that one day at a time thing! I am hoping the antibiotics work for her, and the results are better in a couple of weeks, and that she continues to feel well.

Ok, it is bitter cold here today, and so windy, after being almost 80 yesterday, sheesh. So I suspect it is cold for you also. Here's hoping Hannah can get out of the E collar!!


Take care Julie, and thanks again for checking in on me and my boy.

Hugs, and belly rubs for Hannah,

Tina and Jasper

[addy]

Sweetie, I am thankful everyday we all have each other.

I can totally picture Hannah being so proud of her bath and cuteness and I love the fact that she still does that after everything she has been through.

I too hope we have a colder winter with normal temps. Zoe is hardly chewing her paws right now, no sneezing, I keep wondering if it is the higher cortisol levels helping her as our grass is still green and was just cut last week. It did not affect her as it had been.

Love you and thank you for thinking of us and writing.

[molly muffin]

We love therefore we worry. There is a probably a mommy syndrome that should be thrown in there somewhere. Mommy and Daddy I should say, because we might be the ones on here, but the guys in our lives have worry fits too, they just deal differently. Okay, now that I've acknowledged that we all have someone in our lives, wives, husbands, partners, friends, etc. Back to our worrying. Sheeezzz.

Omg, these guys totally know how to work the "how cute am I, give me a treat" thing. That head to the side tilt maneuver. I think they hold it in reserve for when they think it is possible they might Not get that next treat.

I am glad that Hannah is doing so much better. She really had us scared there for awhile. I hope that cone can go away with the cooler temps too. It has to be so frustrating for them. I'd be a wreck if I had to wear a cone around my neck all the time.

Thanks for popping in and checking on us. Hopefully you are one of those getting a 3 day weekend this weekend and will be able to enjoy an extra day to yourself !

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Is it time for your birthday party????



'cause, I dont want to miss it

[jmac]

I don't have birthday party plans yet, Addie, but the big day is Monday. It's almost always over the Thanksgiving holiday so it's going to be weird to have it during the week. My students are SO excited; they've already been making me cards. They all want to buy me presents but I tell them a card and excellent behavior is all I want. (I work at a school where about 90% of families are low-income, so I don't want them to spend their money on me!).

My Hannah-bear gets her blood test tomorrow. I am dreading it, yet I guess I'm ready to know where to go from here. Honestly, the best birthday present I could get would be for her results to be better. Please keep us in your thoughts and hope for the best. I'll post tomorrow afternoon after I get the results.

Julie & Hannah

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

fingers crossed for Hannah and Happy Birthday Julie!

[molly muffin]

I think that is an excellent birthday wish Julie and I hope it comes true.

That is very sweet of you with the students. I'm sure they are very excited to be around on teachers birthday. :) I bet it will be a wonderful day!

Happy Thanksgiving

hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Not good news. Her liver values did not drop. ALK is about 860 and ALT is about 260. We are going to do a bile acids test next week, and then go from there. He recommends an ultrasound after that, depending on the results. I couldn't quite get as much information as I'd like about how to proceed, and I know that is partly because he doesn't know what is wrong. I just want to know if it is worth it to spend the $425 on the ultrasound. If it isn't going to change the treatment plan then I'm not sure if we should spend the money. He said it could be something like lymphoma as opposed to just a liver tumor or liver disease. I don't know if treatment would change even if it was lymphoma. I guess I'll hope to get more information after the next test.

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Julie, Hugs, I know it is worrying about the high liver values. Molly has the same thing, high ALT, high ALP, and everything else on the blood work is normal. I will be very interested to hear what your vet has to say. Now will the bile test, confirm or rule out liver disease?
Is there any way to rule out lymphoma without an ultrasound?

There is nothing more to be done this week, so just try and have a good Thanksgiving. Next week will come soon enough.

hugs,
Sharlene

[addy]

Well, how much of these increased values can be attributed to her Cushings?


I am just wondering. I cant tell you not to worry because you are like me and will worry anyway.

I am hoping someone will come along and help shed some light on this all.

I am so sorry you are having to worry about this now. Try to take it one day at a time. Hannah is okay today so baby steps for now, Julie.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))) )))))))))))))))))

[Tina]

Julie, I too am so sorry you are having to worry about this over the holiday weekend and your Birthday. :( I am like you also and can't help but worry.

Sharlene, Jasper had a bile acids test when we were trying to figure out what was wrong before we determined the Cushings diagnosis. It is my understanding that it is a very specific test for liver function, and if normal, will rule out liver disease.

I agree with Addy - is there a reason that your Dr doesn't think the elevations are related to the Cushings?

Hugs to you and Hannah,

Tina and Jasper

[addy]

Dearest friend, I am very greatful for you too. You are always here for me and as Jeanette said, our bonds are strong. I dont know what I would do without you either.

We'll get Hannah figured out, sweetie and we will all hold your hand while we do it.

Keep the faith and eat lots of turkey. :):)

love you tons (((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Bailey's Mom]

Julie I can fully empathize with you. We went into that "dark closet" with Palmer. Seemed to be full of questions without answers. The testing and the treatment gets more expensive each time you run another test trying to get a concrete answer from somewhere.

This is a frustrating opinion to hear, but do what you can with what information you have and what resources you have. We ran all but one test/procedure on Palmer. What I got out of that was a certainty that I had tried everything I could do to save him. For us, that was a very high price (dollars) to pay. I don't regret having done any of it.

You have some very valid questions for which you should be able to get answers. Vets are stuck in the middle because we want to know the future and they don't have much better a handle on it than we do.

Try not to worry all the time. I know how hard that is to do. Maybe tomorrow the vet could answer some of your questions. Maybe the answers will make it easier to decide your next step. I always have said I'd rather have bad news than no news (answers) because bad news is something concrete I can deal with. If you listen real hard, your gut will give you some guidance as to what is right for you.

Meanwhile, have fun with Hannah. Enjoy today. It's all any of us has anyway.
Huge Hug,
Susan

[jmac]

Thank you so much for your well-wishes and your thoughts, Addy, Susan, Tina, Sharlene, and Judi. You have no idea how much I appreciate it. You gave me some good things to think about and my brain has been working on overdrive. I have lots of questions I need to write down for when I have a conversation with my vet.

As for why he doesn't think the elevated ALT values are related to her Cushing's-I think I asked that the first time it was elevated and I believe he said they don't commonly see the ALT elevated with Cushing's, that it is usually just ALKP. I don't know if that is correct or not. It seems that from what I can remember from the forum it is usually the ALKP that is elevated.

I made a call to the holistic/traditional vet that does Hannah's acupuncture and laser therapy because I love the vet we see there and she is very practical and direct with me. She is not in until Tuesday so I am hoping she will make some time to call me. I also found out they do ultrasounds there for $356 and at my regular vet it is $425. I do know the guy who does them at my regular vet has "the best equipment" according to my vet, so I wonder if there is any difference in the quality. I have to decide if it would be worth doing the ultrasound at the other vet to save money. I'm not sure what that would do to the relationship at my regular vet. I do like them and they are really close to my house and it is easy to get in for an appointment, while the other vet is a bit further away, and it's not as easy to get in.

I also was a little confused because my vet kind of suggested going right to the ultrasound until I asked about the bile acids test (not by name, but by explaining what I'd read) and then he said that would be a good thing to try next if I'd like, because it will tell us how well her liver is functioning. He said then I could decide if I want to do the ultrasound. The bile acids test is just over $100, and I assume that no matter what it tells about her liver it would probably warrant further investigation into what is going on, so maybe he was thinking I could just skip to the ultrasound???

I am not opposed to the ultrasound, and although I don't want to spend several hundred dollars figuring this out, especially around the holidays, we can afford it if we need to. I just want to be sure since I will not put her through a biopsy or fine needle aspirate, that they feel they will get valuable info. that may alter how we proceed with treatment. I know no one can look into the future, but I'd like to have another conversation about it.

Meanwhile, I have read about liver disease in dogs and there are many symptoms, so obviously I can find things like, "yeah, Hannah is more lethargic than she used to be," but that has been true for over a year. She really doesn't have any other signs, so if she does have liver disease, I assume it is in the early stages. Also, I don't know what to make of the fact that she was borderline anemic for a few months, which is why we were doing the extra blood tests, and that seems to have improved and stayed consistent but then the ALT elevation popped up, along with the fact that the ALKP has gone from 475 to 860 since early Sept.

Hannah has been on Denamarin for a couple of years and it seemed to be working well; her ALKP dropped to just above normal (at 250 or something). It seems to me that the Denamarin is not doing anything at this point. I'm not sure what he would even put her on or if we would stick with the Denamarin and change her diet. She is also on a prescription diet for crystals in her urine (she's been on it for about 8 years) so I don't know if that would cause issues.

Hannah also does not have a ravaging appetite at all. And she still has no potbelly, no panting (she never seems hot), and her water intake is definitely more than the average dog, but it is not crazy. She still holds her urine all day and all night. In fact, she would be content going out in the morning around 7:00, at about 4:00 when my husband gets home, and then around 9:00 or 10:00 before we go to bed. We usually let them out one more time between dinner and bed, but Hannah doesn't always want to go. She still has a full coat of hair, although my groomer says her coat has changed (but I don't notice anything) and her hair grows back after it's cut. There are times when I still wonder if she has Cushing's, yet her LDDS test was supposedly definitive for Pituitary Cushing's, and she did have leg weakness, as she stopped wanting to jump on furniture. That also came along around the time her back problems started, so who knows. And her allergies are still out of control and not being controlled by cortisol, as it sounds like happens for many dogs.

I don't know. Now I'm rambling. I guess I just wonder if she has Cushing's or if there is something else that has been going on that is affecting her liver values, as well as the Hematocrit and Hemoglobin.

As Susan said, not knowing is frustrating, and that is true for me also. The only thing to really do is get more information. I think I have decided that I will do the ultrasound if it makes sense/seems necessary, but I won't put her through anything invasive. She is 13 1/2 and has risks as it is. I know I have given her a very happy life and have prepared for the end so many times with her, that the one thing I can say is that it gets a little easier each time. I know that when that time comes it will be what she needs. And I also know that "that time" may not be soon. I just want to do what I can for her to make her comfortable and happy.

I just feel like there may be some dots that have not been connected here, and that something else may be going on with my girl. I will say, I am doing quite well taking one thing and one day at a time. My husband has mentioned it several times. He said he is so proud of how well I have handled the waiting because he knows how much my Hannah means to me. I'm proud of myself too. I definitely have some weak moments, but I have to remember that we don't even know what's wrong yet, and that it doesn't mean she is going to die immediately. I just need to take one thing at a time until we get more info. and can develop a plan. I'm all about having a plan, so that is something I can handle. :)


Thanks to anyone who read this novel! You can see it was a place for me to get all my thoughts out. If any of you have any other thoughts or advice to share, I'd love to hear it. The internet can only tell me so much, so I love to hear from those of you with more knowledge and experience!

Thanks again for thinking of us. It means the world to me!

Julie & Hannah

[jmac]

Hi again,

Okay, bear with me one more time. I was just catching up on a few threads as my hubby makes breakfast, and saw that Marianne wrote this on Blaze's thread:

the ACTH is actually the more "specific" test of the two. What this means is that a "positive" on an ACTH is actually a more reliable indicator that a dog truly does have Cushing's. The LDDS is more likely to be skewed by the presence of other nonadrenal disease and thereby return a positive result even when a dog doesn't have Cushing's.

Does that mean I am correct in my thinking that maybe Hannah does not actually have Cushing's, but could have some other disease that caused those results on the LDDS? And that it has just slowly progressed over the past year and a half? She has never had an ACTH test. I know many of you asked me what her cortisol levels were. My vet said he could certainly do an ACTH if I wanted, but that it was more what they used to determine the dosing for meds because we wouldn't know what Hannah's "normal" cortisol level was. The IM seemed to agree that it wasn't necessary. I know it isn't cheap either, so I didn't push. I wonder if it would tell me anything at this point??? What are your thoughts?

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

hi Julie, as you know I can relate to many of the things going on with Hannah, as I have the same thing going on with Molly and still nothing definite. I did the ultrasound and I do think it added to my knowledge, it didn't change the fact of not treating right now for Cushings due to the LDDS being completely noncushings, while the ACTH showed very high levels of cortisol.

It is definitely baffling when you get all of these mixed messages from the very test results that we rely on to try and tell us what is the best course to follow with our little furballs.

So, here is what I would ask you.. what exactly would you do for Hannah, treatment wise at this point? And maybe that will help you to determine what you need to know. I think the bile acid test would be good as it is liver disease specific and if she has liver disease, then you probably would not treat for cushings, even if by chance she has that too, the liver disease is the most important to deal with. (I think this might be my next test for molly too after reading what your vet has said and Hannah's test results, see you help even when confused yourself!)

If the bile tests come back negative, that is a relief and not probably a factor in anything else going on with Hannah. At that point, whether yes or no, you can probably put off getting the ultrasound for awhile as Hannah has no real symptoms of either cushings Or liver disease at this point. Sort of do a save jar idea for the ultrasound and get it after the holidays.

ALT's can go up if they have had any sort of gastrointestinal issues or kidneys, in that everything seems to affect the liver. I opted to get just an ALT/ALP test done later to see how those numbers were doing and they had changed downward, not enough but some over a period of I think a couple months. I'll be ordering another one of those in the near future, to see if the Heppato Supplements (same as your Denamarin) has helped.

Anyway, baby steps, don't over stress this and just try to do one step at a time, so it doesn't overwhelm you all at once.

You can ask what kind of ultrasound equipment the holistic vet has, knowing that you have some time to make a decision on which you might want to use. If you decide to go with the cheaper option, then just be straight forward with your vet and say, that the place that gives her the acupuncture, does it cheaper, but you can ask that the report be shared with your vet, or you can bring them a copy that you get for them to add to their records.

I know that this is so very stressful to go through. Hannah is a happy little thing though and that is really what is most important. She is enjoying her life with you thoroughly and you with her.

Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[lulusmom]

Hi Julie,

Dogs with primary liver disease have more abnormalities than just ALT and ALKP. Did your vet do a complete chemistry and cbc or did he just do a snap test inhouse? If comprehensive testing was done, can you post all abnormalities? As far as symptoms associated with primary liver disease, dogs don't usually have any symptoms until most of the liver has shut down, usually 75%.

Based on everything you just posted, it sure doesn't sound like Hannah ever had cushing's and in the absence of any symptoms associated with cushing's, I sure wouldn't pursue any diagnostics to rule it out at this point. To answer your question about the LDDS, yes it is more likely to yield a false positive results if there is something else going on with a dog. This would include any non adrenal illness, whether chronic or transient, and stress. So could Hannah's results have been a false positive? Absolutely.

I personally would find an ultrasound more useful than a bile acid test. If liver enzymes are elevated, chances are bile acids are going to be high. FYI, most dogs with cushing's have mildly high bile acids but some have elevations as high as 50.

Glynda

[StarDeb55]

Julie, I'm not around much any more, so I have gone back & read your last several posts. If you don't mind, could you post Hannah's last 3-5 hemoglobin/hematocrits, & the dates they were done. Actually, I would like to see the complete CBC, if possible. I'm looking for drops in WBC, along with platelet counts, besides the H&H. I just don't have the time to go back & re-read the whole thread at the moment. Post how ever many you can find, along with the dates they were done.

I read where the vet apparently feels there is a concern for possible lymphoma. Believe me, I have plenty of experience with that one, too, unfortunately. At any point in time over the past 3-4 months, have either you or the vet felt any swollen glands on Hannah? The normal places to find them would be in & around the lower jaw/neck, or in behind her elbows or knees. When Barkley got sick, I never actually thought to check for swollen glands. All I can tell you is B was "off", the main symptom was a lack of appetite. This was the cushing's boy who never lost that voracious appetite even with him being well controlled by lysodren. He would have eaten until he popped, if I let him, so I knew something was really wrong. After going back & forth between his derm vet & GP vet for 2 weeks, not getting a straight answer from either of them, I threw up my hands, basically told both of them, "I'm spending a bucket of $$$ for both of you to figure out what's going on, & this boy is literally dying in front of me." After I pitched that fit with the derm vet, we got sent to an IMS. She felt multiple swollen nodes on physical exam, & wanted to keep B for an ultrasound & fine needle aspirate of one of the nodes. The ultrasound told the tale, multiple swollen lymph nodes throughout his abdomen. A fine needle aspirate was done on the node in behind his knee, & 24hour later, the verdict was lymphoma. I don't want to worry you to death, but on the remote chance this is lymphoma, there is not a lot of time. On the slim chance it is lymphoma, I can offer you some help with your options.

I'm telling you B's story as it's my long-winded way of saying that I agree with Glynda that an ultrasound would be the best bet, IMO.

Debbie

[molly muffin]

You learn something new all the time on here. If a dog that has elevated liver ALT's and ALP's is going to test high on a bile acid test, then I guess that wouldn't rule out liver disease after all. arggghhh
I agree, over all, frustrating.

hugs,
Sharlene

[jmac]

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for your thoughts!!! I am now going to talk to the vet to see if they think I should just do the ultrasound first.

Debbie, I will post results below. Thanks so much for sharing all your thoughts. I honestly think he threw out lymphoma as just an example, but who knows. I have felt nothing abnormal on Hannah. I just checked after I read your post and had my mom check too since she was over. She's with her a lot too, and hasn't noticed anything either.

She has had other abnormal results as well, some of them only since the Hemoglobin and Hematocrit (MCV, MCH, MPV) and Platelets have been high for years.

I will post results in order. I don't have Wednesday's results yet. They usually mail me a copy when I'm not there to pick it up. I just know he said ALKP was 860 something and I think ALT was 260.

I will try to mark "HIGH" with red and "LOW" with blue.

11/6/12
ALB-2.9 g/dL (2.2-3.9)
ALKP-772 U/L(23-212) H
ALT-240 U/L (10-100) H
ALKP-772 U/L (23-212)H
BUN/UREA-19 mg/dL (7-27)
Chloride-120 mmol/L (109-122)
CREA-1.1 mg/dL (0.5-1.8)
GLU-111 mg/dL (70-143)
Potassium-4.7 mmol/L (3.5-5.8)
Sodium-162 mmol/dL (144-160) H
TP-6.1 g/dL (5.2-8.2)
GLOB-3.2 g/dL (2.5-4.5)
ALB/GLOB-0.9 (no range given)
BUN/CREA-17 (no range given)
Na/K-34 (no range given)
OSM cal-323 mmol/kg (no range given)
HCT-39.7 % (37.3-61.7)
HGB-14.3 g/dL (13.1-20.5)
MCHC-36 g/dL (32-37.9)
WBC-12.72 K/uL (5.05-16.76)
LYMPHS-4.23 K/uL (1.05-5.1)
% LYMPHS -33.3%
MONOS-0.7 K/uL (0.16-1.12)
% MONOS-5.5%
NEUT-7.24 K/uL- (2.95-11.64)
%NEUT-56.8%
EOS-0.53 K/uL (0.06-1.23)
%EOS-4.2%
BASO-0.02 K/uL (0-0.1)
%BASO-0.2%
PLT-614 (148-484) H
Retics-86.8 K/uL (10-110)
%Retics-1.3%
RBC-6.94 M/uL- (5.65-8.87)
MCV-57.2 fL (61.6-73.5) L
MCH-20.6 pg (21.2-25.9) L
RDW-21% (13.6-21.7)[/COLOR]
MPV-8.5 fL (8.7-13.2) L[/COLOR]
PDW-10.2 fL (9.1-19.4)
PCT-0.52% (0.14-0.46) H


10/4/12 (My vet ran a test in house and also sent it out to IDEXX Labs at no charge. Here are the IDEXX results)
WBC-12.9 (5.7-16.3 K/uL)
RBC-7.10 (5.5-8.5 M/uL)
HGB-15.0 (12-18 g/dL)
HCT-42.4 (37-55%)
MCH-21.1 (19.5-26.0 pg)
%Reticulocyte-1.1 ( -%)
Neutrophil SEG-56.0 (60-77%) L
Lymphocytes-35.6 (12-30%) L[/COLOR]
Monocytes-3.8 (3-10%)
Eosinophil-4.5 (2-10%)
Basophil-0.1 (0-1%)
Auto Platelet-674 (164-510 K/uL) H
*There is some info about Absolute neutrophil, lymphocyte, etc. if you want it.
*In the remarks it says "slide reviewed microscopically; no parasites seen)

Here are the results for 10/4 from my vet office:
RBC-7.06 M/uL (5.65-8.87)
HCT-39.8% (37.3-61.7)
HGB-14.1 g/dL (13.1-20.5)
MCH-20.0 (21.2-25.9) L
MCHC-35.4 g/dL (32.0-37.9)
RDW-21.0% (13.6-21.7)
%Retic-1.2 (no range given)
Retic-85.4 K/uL(10-110)
WBC-12.49 K/uL (5.05-16.76)
% NEU-55.9% (no range given)
%LYM-34.4% (no range given)
%MONO-5.3% (no range given)
%EOS-4.2% (no range given)
%BASO-0.2% (no range given)
NEU-6.97 K/uL (2.95-11.64)
LYM-4.30 K/uL (1.05-5.10)
MONO-0.66 K/uL (0.16-1.12)
EOS-0.53 K/uL (0.16-1.12)
BASO-0.03 K/uL (0.00-0.10)
PLT-614 K/uL (148-484) H
MPV-8.2 fL (8.7-13.2) L
PDW-9.9 fL (9.1-19.4)
PCT-0.50% (0.14-0.46) H
GLU 109 mg/dL (70-143)
BUN-17 m/dL (7-27)
CREA -1.2 mg/dL (0.5-1.8)
BUN/CREA-14 (no range given)
TP-6.1 g/dL (5.2-8.2)
ALB-2.9 g/dL (2.2-3.9)
GLOB-3.2 g/dL (2.5-4.5)
ALB/GLOB-0.9 (no range given)
ALT-89 U/L (10-100)
ALKP-471 U/L (23-212) H
Na-151 mmol/L (144-160)
K-5.9mmol/L (3.5-5.8) H
Na/K-26 (no range given)
Cl-118 mmol/L (109-122)
Osm CAlc-304 mmol/L (no range given)

9/14/12:
RBC-6.24 M/uL (5.65-8.87)
HCT-34.2% (37.3-61.7) L
HGB-12.4 g/dL (13.1-20.5) L
MCV-54.8 fL (61.6-73.5) L
MCH-19.9 pg (21.2-25.9) L
MCHC-36.3 g/dL (32.0-37.9)
RDW-19.8% (13.6-21.7)
%RETIC-0.5% (no range given)
RETIC-31.2 K/uL (10.0-110.0)
WBC-13.31K/uL (5.05-16.76)
%NEU-67.4%
%LYM-23.8%
%MONO-4.8%
%EOS-3.8%
%BASP-0.2%
NEU-8.98 K/uL (2.95-11.64)
LYM-3.17 K/uL (1.05-5.10)
MONO-0.64 K/uL (0.16-1.12)
EOS-0.50 K/uL (0.06-1.23)
BASO-0.02 K/uL ( 0.00-0.10)
PLT-610 K/uL (148-484) H
MPV-8.4 fL (8.7-13.2) L
PDW-10.5 fL (9.1-19.4)
PCT-0.52% (0.14-.46 ) H
GLU-97 mg/gL (70-143)
BUN-17 mg/dL (7-27)
CREA 1.1 mg/dL (0.5-1.8)
BUN/CREA-15 (no range given)
TP-6.0 g/dL (5.2-8.2)
ALB-2.6 g/dL (2.2-3.9)
GLOB-3.4 g/dL (2.5-4.5)
ALB/GLOB-0.8 (no range given)
ALT-78 U/L (10-100)
ALKP-326 U/L (23-212) H
NA-153 mmol/L (144-160)
K-5.5 mmol/L (3.5-5.8)
Na/K-28 (no range given)
Cl-14 mmol/L (109-122) H
Osm Calc-306 mmol/L (no range given)


8/8/12 (same ranges-I don't have the full print out on this one)
RBC-6.60 M/uL
HCT-36.9% (37.3-61.7)L
HGB-13.7 g/dL
MCV-55.9 fL (61.6-73.5) L
MCH-20.8 pg (21.2-25.9) L
MCHC-37.1
RDW-18.7%
%RETIC-0.4%
RETIC-25.1
WBC-13.04
*Skipping cell % and types*
PLT-610 K/uL (148-484) H
MPV-8.6 fL (8.7-13.2) L
PDW-10.1
PCT-0.47% (0.14-0.46)H
GLU-96
BUN-23
CREA-1.2
BUN/CREA- 19
TP-5.9
ALB-2.7
GLOB-3.2
ALB/GLOB-0.8
ALT-49
ALKP-250 (23-212)
Na-156
K-5.5
Na/K-28
CL-119 (109-122) H
Osm Calc-314


4/9/12
RBC-6.78 M/uL (5.65-8.87)
HCT-39.5% (37.3-61.7)
HGB-14.4 g/dL (13.1-20.5)
MCV-58.3 fL (61.6-73.5) L
MCH-21.2 pg (21.2-25.9)
MCHC-36.5 g/dL (32.0-37.9
RDW-19.3 % (13.6-21.7)
%RETIC-1.0% (no range given)
RETIC-66.4 K/uL (10.0-110.0)
WBC-11.22 K/uL (5.05-16.76)
*I'm skipping the percent/type of each cell (let me know if you need it*
PLT-558 K/uL (148-484) H
MPV-9.3fL (8.7-13.2)
PDW-10.9 fL (9.1-19.4)
PCT-0.52% (0.14-0.46) H
GLU-94 mg/dL (70-143)
BUN-21 mg/dL (7-27)
CREA-1.2 mg/dL (0.5-1.8)
BUN/CREA-18 (no range given)
TP-6.7 g/dL (5.2-8.2)
ALB-3.0 g/dL (2.2-3.9)
GLOB-3.7 g/dL (2.5-4.5)
ALB/GLOB-0.8 (no range given)
ALT-81 U/L (10-100)
ALKP-186 (23-212)
NA-151 mmol/L (144-160)
K-5.3 mmol/L (3.5-5.8)
Na/K-28 (no range given)
Cl-117 mmol/L (109-122)
Osm Cacl-303 mmol/kg (no range given)

2/15/12--Abnormal Results:
MCV-59.7 (61.6-73.5) L
MCH-21.1 (21.2-25.9) L
BASO-0.13 (-0.00-0.10) H
ALKP-437 (23-212) H
Other info. that may be helpful:
RBC-7.07 (5.65-8.87)
HCT-42.2 (37.3-61.7)
HGB-14.9 (13.1-20.5)
WBC-10.80 (5.05-16.76)

I also have results for 1/19/12 and a few from 2011. It took me about an hour to type this, so I need a break. ;) Let me know if you need more though, and I'd be happy to keep typing.

Thanks again SO MUCH!

Julie & Hannah

[StarDeb55]

Julie, there was a very significant drop in Hannah's hemoglobin, 2 grams between April & mid Sept. Subsequent CBC s show that her hemoglobin has recovered quite nicely, so she is definitely not anemic at the present time. Was anything unusual going on in the above time period? Did you notice if Hannah may have had blood in her stool during this timeframe? I'm thinking that she might have had something like colitis with some slow bleeding in her GI tract that dropped her hemoglobin, but she may not have shown signs of being overtly ill. Since her hemoglobin has recovered, I don't think it's anything to worry about, but please double check with the vet. With lymphoma, Hannah would have probably shown a decreased WBC count & platelet count, she shows neither. With Barkley, I had the derm vet telling me he was anemic, the GP vet than asks if the derm vet said anything about B being leukopenic which is fancy word for low WBC. An overall depression of blood cells produced in the bone marrow is frequently indicative of a malignant process of some type. Hannah is not showing this.

To show you the beauty of the ultrasound, when Harley had his diagnostic US to confirm his Cushing's diagnosis, the report comes back that he has a dilated bile duct, along with bile sludge. The IMS explained that at some point Harley probably had a gall stone or stones block his bile duct, they managed to clear on their own, & Harley never got sick enough for me to notice anything amiss. The information about the bile duct ended up being very important about a year later when Harley had repeated episodes of vomiting bile colored material over several days, ended up at the vet on IV fluid overnight, & after reviewing Harley's chart, his GP vet decided that this episode was related to this bile duct issue.

Debbie

[jmac]

Thank you so much for the info., Debbie. I have scoured these results and looked for patterns and tried to make sense of them. Unfortunately, I can't. I can't think of anything different going on during the time the hemoglobin and hematocrit were low. We did check a fecal during that time because I was worried maybe she was bleeding (even though everything looked normal) and it was totally normal. After my vet saw the low hemoglobin and wanted to monitor it, I looked back at all of her blood work and noticed that in back in Jan. of 2012 her hemoglobin was low, but he never mentioned it. It was normal again on her Feb. blood work. Sometimes I think he forgets what we're even monitoring because it has gone from her liver to having a kidney value off once, to the possible anemia, and now to the ALT. We don't know why it recovered, but I'm glad it did...other than the new problem with the ALT.

Do you think it is weird that the ALT was suddenly high 4 weeks after being normal (and she has NEVER had an abnormal ALT level)? I am so surprised at the change. Also, the ALKP has been steadily rising too, despite her being on Denamarin. It worries me that it isn't helping anymore. Do you think that could mean anything?

I read online that dogs with Cushing's can have high platelet levels. I saw this in two or three places. Has anyone else heard of this? It doesn't seem like a common thing I read on here. I realize that we wonder if she does indeed have Cushing's, but if she does, maybe that is why it is elevated.

Hannah did have an ultrasound in April of 2011 , after the LDDS test suggested Cushing's. It was totally normal. Her liver looked normal as did her adrenal glands, although they still thought she could have early Cushing's disease. I guess if we do the ultrasound, even if there isn't some terrible mass, maybe they will see a change. My vet was talking about bile duct stuff, but thought that two weeks of antibiotics and metronidazole would clear that up and it didn't.

She also had a radiograph in August to check her back. They did the side view and the one where she lied on her back. I distinctly remember the vet who did it telling me everything else looked normal internally too. (I know that a mass may go undetected on an x-ray, but it seems there was nothing totally abnormal in August).

These are the things I can say are true of Hannah:
-She is more "lethargic" the past year or so, but that could be due to age, and she definitely has her moments where she is active, looking for food in the kitchen or following me around the house.
-She does take long drinks-30 seconds at least, but between her and my other Shih Tzu they are not emptying the water bowls (we have two medium-sized ones).
-She does sometimes urinate for a long time too, but it isn't several times a day, usually...although she does have her days like that.
-She seems to have phases where she barks at us in the evenings, usually after she has eaten, and she seems to want more food. But then it will randomly stop for weeks at a time. I can't find a pattern.
-She has done some strange things in the last several months, like wander into closets and go into corners. I mentioned this to my vet but he didn't seem overly concerned and thought it could be dimentia. It has not gotten worse, and it seems to come and go as well. At times I have thought she was looking for food, but I have no idea.
-She has had more ear infections and skin infections in the past couple of years. I'm not sure if this is due simply to allergies, or again, if she does have Cushing's if it could be due to that.
-She does have weaker rear legs, but since having the back injury in Sept. of 2011 she has not done stairs or jumped on furniture, so I assume that makes them weaker too.
-She has had some trouble defecating on and off and has needed Lactulose or Mirolax to soften her stools. We have been unsure if it is because the stool is dry/hard or if it was due to her sore back. She didn't always go daily when she was younger, and now it seems like if she skips a day it is too tough to go. With daily short walks (a couple of blocks) I can usually get her to go. When she was on antibiotics I had to stop the Mirolax because the stool was too soft, so it will be interesting to see what happens now that she's finished.

I guess if anything, I have lots of records and info. on my thread and maybe at some point all of the dots will connect and we will figure out what is going on. At this point, I think I am going to look into the ultrasound and see what it shows.

Thank you again to everyone who has offered input and advice. I sincerely appreciate it.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Keep the faith Julie, maybe the ultra sound will tell us something. I had the same thought as Glynda, that it sure does not seem like Hannah has Cushings.

Are her allergies any better?

Sending love and hugs to you and Hannah.

I am also wishing you another


HAPPY BIRTHDAY because it is tomorrow, right?


Enjoy!!!! (as much as you can)

[frijole]

Julie,

Lots of good advice going your way. FWIW I have never thought Hannah had cushings either. An ultrasound is how we determined what was causing Annie's issues. Is there a teaching school nearby? They tend to have better equipment and most don't charge as much (in my case $150 vs $500) and the people reading the film are very qualified.

Hugs,
Kim

[Bailey's Mom]

Wow-does this recent array of postings take me back! Kudos to you Julie for typing all those test results. I am SURE you were cross eyed when you stopped. I can remember doing that. I am also struck by how much I seem to have "forgotten." All those tests, all those results, and all the funny words and figuring out what they mean. Cushing's......or trying to figure out just what is going on is so complicated. I want to go back to the 1960's!

I have nothing to add to what the others have said. I do admire your thoroughness and sensibility in taking into account Hannah's age when you consider your options.

I'll be here reading. Keep up the good work!
-Susan

[jmac]

Thanks again for all your thoughts. Kim, the University of MN is close. I could go there, but at this point I feel like it just probably makes sense to stick with my regular vet to avoid hard feelings and awkwardness. And we can afford the ultrasound; it just stinks to blow through money on vet stuff. Hopefully the ultrasound will be all we need to rule something in or out.

Yes, Addy, today is the big day!

My dogs collided in the hallway yesterday, head-on, and of course Hannah's eye was hurt. :eek: This time it wasn't scratched though, but all red, like a blood vessel burst. Luckily she wasn't showing any pain and her eye was wide open, so when I called the E clinic they said I didn't need to bring her in. It looks to be almost completely better this morning, thank God. I was also worried she hurt her back somehow, but she seems to be okay. I just need to get through the day without any disasters or injuries!!! :D

Thanks for checking on us!
Julie & Hannah

[addy]

happy birthday to you

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy Birthday, Julie!

[lulusmom]

Happy birthday, Julie.

[Boriss McCall]

Happy Birthday!!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy Birthday, Julie!!

[molly muffin]

Happy Birthday Julie!!!!

Hope Hannah's eye is okay today and that you both have a good day.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

Happy Birthday Julie!!!

I hope you and Hannah are enjoying your day!! :D

Hugs from me and Jasper

[jmac]

Thanks for the birthday wishes, everyone!

Hannah's eye looks great!!! Totally normal!!! You can probably guess, that is the best present I could wish for! :D:D:D

I had a great day at work. My students were very sweet with their homemade cards and little gifts, and my hubby sent me flowers and a really nice card that made me teary-eyed. I feel very fortunate.

I talked with a vet tech from the "acupuncture" vet clinic (easiest way to explain it) today about the ultrasound and bile acids test. The vet gave gave the pros to each one, with examples of what we would determine. I called back with a couple more questions, one being what about waiting a couple more weeks and retesting. I will hear back from them tomorrow.

Thanks again for chiming in with your thoughts everyone. Seriously, I would not make it without you. Even if Hannah doesn't have Cushing's, you are truly the best group of people a girl could ask for!!! :)

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Awww, we think the world of you too Julie! I'm so glad Hannah's eye is totally normal today. That little stinker, causing her mom a scare and getting a head knock from Izzy at the same time. LOL

How awesome is that birthday! Sound pretty great. Great kids, great husband. Good things come to good people. Happy Birthday.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[addy]

Geez, Zoe and I did a head bump the other day and I freaked that I hurt her eye but like Hannah it was okay.

I am so glad you had a good birthday and that Hannah's eye is fine.

Me thinks your students love you:):):);) And we all know why 'cause we love you too:D:D:D

And hubby sending flowers, well, he's a keeper;););)

love ya

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

happy day after Julie! glad Hannah's eye is ok

[jmac]

Good morning everyone!

I have a question and one happy story to share. First, do any of you give your dog probiotics? What do you use? Any suggestions? The more holistic of the two vets left a message yesterday telling me that she thinks Hannah should be on a probiotic and also that I could mix one part apple cider vinegar with four parts water and wipe her chin with that 1-2 times per day to help clean the area she is still itching. (Either her allergies have not fully subsided, which the vet said is possible, or I'm thinking we could have a yeast issue going on). She wants to see how Hannah is in a week, unless I see something that looks bad. But then also recommended a probiotic.

Yesterday when I got home from work and my husband and I took the girls for their daily (short) walk, Hannah was moving at such a quick pace. She was way out in front of me on her leash instead of just kind of going along with me like usual. And on the way home we always stop and smell a light post and fire hydrant, then cut diagonally across the street to go home. They both know the routine and Hannah usually likes the going home part. Yesterday she tried to RUN the rest of the way home!!!:eek: I'm talking the bounding run-first the front feet, then the back. I have not seen her try to run in YEARS. Of course, I'm not supposed to let her run because they don't want her to hurt her back, so I had to hold her back and eventually pick her up because she really wanted to run!

All I could think was well, her back sure must be feeling good, and she sure isn't acting like a dog that's got problems! It made me so happy to see her like that. You would have never known she was 13 1/2 years old!

I should hear from my regular vet today about her thoughts on a plan of action. I have some recommendations from the other vet. Once I have both I'll make a decision. I may be back later to get your thoughts too! :D

Have a great day!

Julie & Hannah

[labblab]

Hi Julie, I'm so happy to hear that Hannah is feeling so perky! :)

My non-Cushpup Peg has been taking daily probiotics ever since her pancreatitis attack last year. Vetri-Science makes probiotics in both chewable and capsule form, and Peg gets the chewable "Vetri-Probiotic Everyday." It's more expensive than the capsule, but it is so easy to dose her with it that I haven't switched. I'm sure there are lots of other good products out there, too, but I've stuck with this because her GI issues have been calmed down for months now and I don't want to rock the boat in any way! I give her a little less than the recommended dosage for her weight in order to stretch the product a little bit :o, but so far she's done great on it.

Marianne

[addy]

Run, Hannah :D

It sure makes us feel good to see them happy and playful. That is wonderful, Julie. Enjoy every minute. That is like Zoe the morning after her Tramadol and she is trying to do roll overs in the kitchen:D

I've tried a few probiotics on Zoe. The one that has worked best for her is Gentle Digest Ark Animals. I give it to Koko as well. They get one a day and make sure the probiotic is given a few hours before or after any antibiotic.

I tried some human ones as well but with not as good of results. The holistic pet store told me that is the one she reccommends and that all her customers have good results with it.

Happy Wednesday!

[molly muffin]

That is such a happy post! Yay! go Hannah! don't you just love their little wiggle butts when they take off like that! hahahahaha

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

My sweets was super quick again today...not quite as much attempted running, but still a little, and she is perkier than ever.

I talked to the other vet at my regular office today and she was so helpful. We talked for 25 min. and she answered all of my questions and was very direct and specific with her thoughts. What's even better is that she and the other vet (holistic-traditional) agreed on two things: 1. I can just redo the regular blood work on Hannah and see if the level is still high before doing anything else, and 2. They would both do the ultrasound next because they feel it is more helpful to know if there is a tumor or something visibly wrong, rather than doing the bile acid test first. Both seemed to think the bile acid test is still a valuable piece of the puzzle, but thought the ultrasound would be more helpful.

So, it's good to have a plan. I decided to just repeat the blood work next Thurs. (That will be two weeks since the last test and one month since the first elevated ALT level). She recommended that I do the full panel, which also includes the AST and GGT liver enzymes, just to get even more info. They were both glad to hear Hannah is happy and not symptomatic whatsoever.

There is one other thing I'm worried about, regarding Hannah's allergies/itching. I am suspicious she may have a yeast infection on her chin/neck. She is still wearing the e collar, but just goes crazy trying to itch there whenever it's off. That's been a problem before, but it seems worse now, and she just finished antibiotics a week ago (and the area was looking pretty good a week or two ago). I may need to have them do a chin scrape to see. The vet recommended giving it a week to see if it is allergies unless it is really irritated, red, or stinky. I keep trying to smell it, but don't know what it would/should smell like. I almost think I should just have it checked because if that's the main issue maybe I can get her out the e collar sooner. Anyone have experience with yeast infections on the chin/neck area? Any sure signs?

Thanks again for your advice! I'll be looking into the probiotics more this weekend. I want to see if the holistic vet recommends any of the ones you guys have mentioned.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Renee's angel Snoopy had a red yeast problem. I dont have a chance right now to do a search for it, I'll look at lunch.

Julie- what is in Hannah's food as I know some yeast problems comes from diet, the probiotics should also help.

They ususally change the diet, give probiotcs, use the cedar vinager, if I remember, Renee dabbed the spots with the vinager as well but that must sting because, I know I tried it on a spot on Zoe and then dapped some on me and it did sting.

[jmac]

Just a quick update from me....

Hannah does have yeast on her chin/neck. They did an impression smear (just pressed the slide on her skin) and then lightly scraped her skin with the edge of the slide and it was positive. Because her liver is out of whack, the vet did not want to try oral ketoconazole first, so we are using ketoconazole wipes on the area.

She is so itchy on her sides too...and frantically bites at her feet when she has the e collar off. I am worried she may have yeast all over....but she doesn't have any bare spots, or oozing, crusty sores....at least not yet. Just her neck looks kind of irritated at this point. She is getting a haircut on Sun. so maybe I will see more then. I did a bath with ketochlor shampoo on Sat. and that evening she was itching worse than ever with inflamed skin. Not sure if that was from the shampoo, the bath in general, or being outside on a walk. Ugh.

I am sort of irritated that my regular vet has never checked for yeast before and wonder if this has been a problem for a looooong time. I don't know if I should have them test other areas on her or what. It seems like my other vet just gave us an antibiotic for an infection whenever they saw irritated skin, and now I realize that can contribute to the problem!!! I'm glad the vet that also does more holistic stuff told me to use the probiotic and also said to use 1 part apple cider to 4 parts water and to wipe itchy areas. For now, I am doing that on her sides and feet until I figure out what to do. I am so frustrated because I want to help her but then the treatment can also hurt her.

She is getting her blood test again on Thurs. I am planning to do the ultrasound after that, unless things have resolved. I feel like I need to know more so we can move forward with an oral anti-fungal if we need to. I won't let them biopsy anything, so I realize we may not know, but hopefully we can rule out a mass. I'm worried the ultrasound will hurt her back again, like the xray did last summer. We had a month of acupuncture after that. She needs to be in the same position (either on her side, or on her back in the foam). I have a call into the vet to see if we can give her a little Xanax first.

I'll keep you posted. I'm just really frustrated right now. She isn't miserable but I can't help but wonder if this whole itching mess is all about yeast! But I feel like I would see worse symptoms.....it's a mystery.

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

dang, I am so not good with these searches. I cannot find Rene's posts on how she successfully treated Snoopy's yeast problem. Rene thought it started from sweet potatoes in her diet.

I hope Hannah does not have to have another ultra sound, it seems her back is better and it is so good to read about her feeling frisky .

Maybe the weather will break and we will get a hard freeze. My allergies are terrible and now even Koko is sneezing:eek::eek: Another friend's pup is itching like crazy! Here we go again, a repeat of last winter:rolleyes::rolleyes:

hang in there, winter break is around the corner, can you believe that? Didn't school just start?

[jmac]

Hannah is getting her blood work checked again today to see how the ALT is looking. My mom is bringing her in for me this morning. They are doing a bigger panel this time, and adding all liver values. I also asked about having her thyroid checked, since I don't know that it ever has been. After reading about thyroid issues on here, I thought it might be worth checking. I've asked them to ask the vet what she thinks. If things are still the same (which I assume they will be) we will probably move forward with the ultrasound. I'll let you know what I find out.

Julie & Hannah

[jmac]

I have some preliminary info. but I am waiting for a call from the vet. Hannah's ALT is now 186. I believe she said it was 254 two weeks ago, so it is dropping, but normal is 100 or lower. Another liver value (did not catch which) is also high. I believe she said it was 13 and was not supposed to be higher than 7. Her Bilirubin was normal, which she said was good. Her ALKP is now at 903 and it was in the upper 800s two weeks ago. They also tested her thyroid and it was just very slightly (a couple of tenths) abnormal. She said I could choose to do a full thyroid check for $96 but that dogs with other problems can have thyroid levels that are off, so that is up to me. She said I could proceed without doing anything since Hannah is not acting sick, or I could do an ultrasound to see if we can see more. Her biggest issue is the itching and the yeast at this point. I don't know what to do. I don't know if I check the thyroid to see if it is a problem, and a possible cause of the itching and skin problems, or if I do the ultrasound so we know if we can ever give her an oral med for the yeast, or if I wait and repeat blood work....I have a call in to the vet to see what she recommends.

I looked back at Hannah's ultrasound results and am worried because her birth date is wrong (it says 3/30/01) but the date was 3/30/11 when they did the ultrasound and I'm wondering if they just guessed because they didn't know the age. It said "10 years" and she would've been 12. I also am concerned because it says weight "10.8kg" and Hannah weighs about 12lbs. I am hoping it means pounds and it was one of the times that her weight was a little off because she was moving around on the scale. It does say Shih Tzu, so I sure hope I have the results to MY DOG'S ultrasound! You can bet I am going to ask, though!

I'll let you know more when I have more information, but I certainly would like your input.

Thanks so much!
Hannah & Julie

[molly muffin]

Crossing fingers and toes for positive results today!!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Bailey's Mom]

I sure would have them double check the results to be sure they are Hannah's. I was at an office visit somewhere recently and whomever I was going to speak with had someone else's file on top and started referring to me as that person. It seems like everything needs to be triple checked these days.

-Susan

[jmac]

Guys, I'm losing it. Right now, I fear I'll be putting Hannah to sleep because she is so itchy and full of yeast/infections that she is miserable and we can't give her oral ketoconazole because of her liver.

I am still waiting to hear from one vet, but I am getting frustrated that I can't get any answers. At this point I am trying to treat what is actually "wrong" with Hannah, and that is her itching. She has been wearing an e collar for several weeks and she is scratching her sides and chest, and she bites her feet and scratches her neck when the collar is off. I wonder if there is yeast all over her body. When I told the vet that is my concern right now and I wondered if we should see if there is indeed more yeast, her answer was that if there is more yeast, they would still treat with the oral med, and because of her liver she doesn't want to do that. So where does that leave me?

I asked the vet tech who called me back to ask her what she would do if it was her dog. I'm confused about where this leaves me. If I do an ultrasound, we still may not know what is wrong. I will not biopsy anything. She is old and I wouldn't treat it if she had cancer anyway, and I don't want to risk any problems from a biopsy anyway. And what if we see nothing abnormal? Then we still don't know what is wrong with her liver. I guess I need to ask what the circumstances would need to be to give her the ketoconazole orally. Do the liver values need to be normal? Should I now do a bile acid test to see how her liver functions? Would that tell us if she could handle it? Do I do the thyroid test for $96 because her thyroid was off by a couple of tenths, and see if that may be the cause for the itching? It still wouldn't fix the yeast.

I am not handling this well today and am on the verge of a breakdown. To top it off, there is now a winter storm watch Sat. night into Sun. and Hannah is supposed to be groomed on Sun. She needs a haircut, especially to get the hair on her neck shorter. I'm worried the weather will be too bad to go (it's a bit of a trip bc I go to an in-home groomer who will just shave her down while I hold her to prevent back issues). The groomer had no other openings before Christmas. So that is stressing me out too, yet I don't even know what will happen.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I worry they are going to think I am crazy at both vet offices, but I am just trying to take care of my dog. They tell me I can wait to do further testing because she is acting healthy, but the problem that actually is manifesting itself, the itching, we can't fix. The ALT dropped 68 points in the past two weeks, but it is still 186, 86 points above normal. And some other liver value (still don't know what) is also high. But Bilirubin is normal. And ALKP is 903.

Ugh. I have to leave soon because I have plans to go to the Timberwolves game with a friend. I probably won't even be able to hear the phone when the vet calls, which is also frustrating. I feel helpless and hopeless right now. And I feel like I am failing Hannah because I can't make her better. I wish I knew what to do...

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Okay, deep breaths, in and out, there has to be other ways to treat yeast.
1- did they do a scraping- what kind of yeast is it?
2- what do you feed Hannah?
3- are the topicals not working?
4- did you start a probiotic?

can we try to change her on the inside? I know an aquaintence whose dog had such bad allergies the traditonal vets gave up on her and told her mom to just put her down. She went to a holisitc vet and started her on a raw diet. She has to switch the proteins around, rotate them, but the dog is fine now, has hair, minimal itching, you should see him.

I am bringing this up just so we can talk about what Hannah's diet consists of becuase if she has yeast, I think her diet needs to be meat based with no grain, no sweet potatoes and a good probiotic.

Would that not start the healing on the inside? I am just throwing this out there to start the discussion if you cant use the oral ketoconazole because of her liver.

Maybe you are already feeding that:o:o:o:o


You are not failing Hannah, nor have you ever failed your little girl. Compared to some of the dogs here, her numbers are not as high as some.

The storm will probably end up being nothing, just a bit of snow, it will be fine.

Go enjoy the game and lock it all up for the night. You will be able to think better tomorrow and hopefully others will chime in.

(((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))) ))

[molly muffin]

Okay, Addy is right, deep, deep breaths, slow.

Now, okay, so, lets see what kind of options are available.

I've got two sites, that talk about the yeast infections:

http://www.westiemed.org/health/malassezia/

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=321

This stuff you probably already know.

Now, this one is sort of an alternative medicine site, in that I'm mainly reading the comments to see what others are doing for their dogs yeast infection.
One is wiping down with an infusion of steeped jasmine tea. That sounded interesting. Oh and just read another one who is doing the jasmine tea thing and both say it is working. Because of not being able to give ketoconazole, and everyone seems to agree that if there is a preexisting liver condition, then that shouldn't be used, at least orally, then maybe could find something to try on there.

http://www.earthclinic.com/Pets/yeast_infections_dogs.html

As far as food goes, nothing with starch in it, sweet potatoes, etc. that turns to sugar is something that yeast just loves, so if healing from the inside, that might not be a good bet.

I'm just trying to come up with things that might work and save you from having to take that step that would just break your heart. You are such a great mom. I hope you know that.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[milosmom]

well just fyi.a friend has a lab/mix and suffered for months with yeast/skin stuff.she switched his diet to only Natures Variety Instinct Raw Boost and in a short time her baby was not itcy,rashes subsided and is now just a fine happy little boy.i was thinking about putting my two on this,but i wanna wait until milo gets through his stuff.hope this is helpful,pulling for you ...patty and milo

[StarDeb55]

Julie, I don't remember, but has Hannah ever been seen by a derm vet? If she has, then never mind. If not, a derm vet may be able to offer you some hope. Barkley's severe allergies were managed by a derm vet who was very well aware of B's Cushing's, & therefore not steroid containing meds could be used. The derm vet put B on several alternatives which were nothing short of a miracle.

Debbie

[milosmom]

ps i have also been using Vetericyn VF spray on milo for his collorettes (skin inflammations under both armpits) and it always helps alleviate these symptoms.it is for wound and infection care you just spray it on 2xdaily.i see it has truly worked for milo when he has his outbreaks.he does not have cc....

[Harley PoMMom]

I believe I read where some yeast infections can be attributed to food allergies so maybe an elimination diet could help. Also I have read where a 50/50 solution of vinegar and water can be used on the dog for yeast infections as long as there are no open sores.

Sending tons of healing and loving hugs, Lori

[Bailey's Mom]

My thoughts and prayers are with you Julie. Fingers crossed for good news.

-Susan

[Trish]

Hi Julie
So sorry to read about Hannah's skin problems, I hope some of these suggestions work for her and she get's some relief.
Trish xx

[jmac]

Thanks for all the replies. I am feeling slightly better today. Actually, when I talked to my primary vet last night, she suggested Hannah see a derm vet, just like a few of you have suggested. She said that this woman may be able to steer us in the right direction, whether she thinks it is a thyroid test we need, if she thinks it is Cushing's related, and what she thinks we can do about the yeast if we can't use the oral medication. I have an appointment next Saturday at noon. It definitely won't be cheap, but at this point, my main concern is what symptoms are manifesting themselves, and outwardly her liver doesn't seem to be causing problems; it's the itching that makes her uncomfortable. Sharlene, I also read on that holistic site and was curious about some things. I also read somewhere about how after bathing a dog with the yeast shampoo they can seem even more itchy (which happened last weekend) and it is something about drawing the yeast out.

The one problem is that Hannah is on the Royal Canin Urinary SO food because of having struvite crystals years ago. She's been on it for about 7 years. We did do a short trial once several years ago (only about a month) to see if there was a difference in her itching, and at that point there wasn't. I don't know if the food could be it or not. And I'm not sure what we do if it is the food, since apparently she needs it. I will say, though, that since I've read posts from others who have their dogs on the same food, that now that I realize the food makes them drink and urinate more, I also wonder if that is why she drinks a little more than the average dog (but still not buckets). It's such a mystery.

I tend to do better when there's a plan, and at least now I have a plan: see the derm vet to help with her skin. The other vet (holistic-traditional) told me that if it were her dog, she'd do the ultrasound. (This was before the derm vet idea came up). I think that will be my next step, but I'm not sure when yet.

I did find out the other elevated liver enzyme was GGT. Normal is 0-6 and hers was 13. The ALT did drop from 254 to 186 and ALKP is about 900. Her cholesterol was normal, as are white blood cells, etc. Bilirubin was also normal, as well as hemoglobin and hematocrit. Platelets are still elevated, but have been for at least a few years. The primary vet said there is obviously something going on, but she is glad her bilirubin is normal and that means her liver is functioning. She said if I don't do an ultrasound, I can either retest when I feel like it, or wait to see if she becomes symptomatic. She is very good about understanding that I am not trying to "fix" something I can't fix in my 13 1/2 year-old dog, but just want to keep her comfortable and happy.

Hannah got a bath today and hopefully will get her haircut tomorrow, if the weather cooperates. We are on the edge of a winter storm warning, with possibly up to 8 inches of snow. I'm going to cross my fingers that this is one of the many times the meteorologists are wrong!

If you have any other thoughts, pass them my way. Thanks for all the ideas. I really appreciate it, and I feel even better when I have similar suggestions from here and my vet. :)

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

I understand completely about the SO food as Molly is on the same thing for the same reason. I've noticed that every time I've tried to get her off of it, she goes back to drinking even less water and then of course if she doesn't drink as much as she should, the crystals form. I can tell a difference even if I take her off it for one day. That day she drinks less. Of course I have been monitoring her water intake every since we had that scare with the crystals quite a few years ago, so I that is probably why I notice. That makes it hard to get them off it. It does make them drink and pee more though, and that is what they need to do and we want them to do in our cases.
I think the derm vet is an excellent idea. I really hope that they can give you some answers. I read that too about drawing the yeast out and causing it to itch more.

I really hope you don't get the storm.

hugs,
Sharlene

[Tina]

Julie,
I just got caught up on your thread and am so sorry Hannah is having such trouble. As I was reading I was thinking about a derm vet, so I am glad you have something sheduled. I understand that Hannah can't take the oral medication recommended due to her liver issues, but I just keep wondering if there isn't something topical that you can apply to her skin in the meantime. And what about Benadryl to help with the itching? Is that something that might help?

I have the Vikings game on and see that it is snowing pretty hard there. Are you able to get Hannah to her grooming appt?

Hugs,
Tina and Jasper

[molly muffin]

We're under a freezing rain warning here (after the snow and before it switches to rain) looks like it's coming from a really big system, dumping snow MN, WI, Michigan, hope you guys are okay and that you got Hannah in and back home before it got to you.
If not just stay in and stay safe and dry. We even elected not to go the mall today (not that I ever really Want to go to a mall around the holidays and any excuse is a good one not to) We'll be the ones out there on Christmas eve trying to get our last minute shopping done. LOL (procrastination at it's best!)

Have a good day
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

Just saw that a snow emergency has been declared for Minneapolis, the clip they showed looked pretty bad. Hope you and Hannah are warm and safe.

Tina and Jasper

[jmac]

Thanks for checking on us! We did not go to the groomer. It's pretty ugly here. We probably have 6 inches already and it is supposed to continue all night. The groomer even called me this morning and said it was really slippery by her house. She is going to do it Tues. night for us, which is great. Such a relief! We are expecting up to 10 or 15 inches when it is done, and then it's supposed to get cold and windy--so we'll have below zero windchills tonight and tomorrow.:eek: Ugh. I have shoveled off about a 10 X 10 foot area of my yard so Hannah can get around...luckily we know our neighbors well, and they know Hannah, so they don't think I've gone totally nuts! :D This morning before I had a chance to do that, I took them out to potty and Hannah came in with what looked like four HUGE snowballs for feet. Her hair is fairly long and the snow is really wet and heavy so it doesn't take long to stick! Now I just hope it doesn't freeze too much because then she can't seem to walk on it at all. That was horrible last winter.

Tina, to answer your questions, I do have ketoconazole wipes for Hannah's neck and the vet said I can use 1 part apple cider vinegar to 4 parts water and wipe or soak itchy areas. We do that a couple of times per day. (I get up 30 min. early to take care of her these days)! She was on Hydroxyzine for itching, but I decided to take her off yesterday, since it is so cold and since it wasn't working anyway. I don't notice any difference. Also, if the derm vet happens to want to allergy test, she has to be off of antihistamines for a week.

Thanks again for checking on us! I've got Christmas music on, banana bread in the oven, and I'm grading my students' math tests. We are warm and safe! :)

Julie & Hannah

[Tina]

Hi Julie,
Glad your grooming appt was rescheduled, what a relief! I didn't know that ketoconazole was available in wipes, I hope that is helping her. Poor thing, that itching can be miserable. And I know what you mean about the snowballs for feet, the same thing happens to Jasper and his sister. The snow just sticks to their fur something terrible. One time in a particularly heavy and wet snow a few years ago, Jasper came to the door and his body and head looked like 2 big snowballs, on top of 4 snowballs for legs. He was standing perfectly still, I think he was afraid to move. The only thing I could see was some movement of snow on his face when he blinked. It was pretty funny. He went directly into a tub of warm water. Not much else you can do when it is that bad. I usually shovel a patch in the yard also! :) We are lucky here, we have dodged the snow for today. Maybe you won't have school tomorrow Julie... :)

Banana bread sounds good. I am going to be baking some pumpkin bread in a bit.

I am a HUGE Vikings fan, and they managed to win the game today (Yay!), so now I better get something done around here! :rolleyes: I hope you are able to get some answers from the derm vet.

Hugs from me and Jasper

[molly muffin]

Snow rain mix here now. :( YUK. So far we're staying in and I'm accomplishing nothing. LOL Must decide, head to MN for banana bread or NB for pumpkin bread. You guys make it hard on a girl!

Yay for a groomer who will reschedule and fit Hannah into her very busy schedule.

Glad everyone is staying in tonight and being safe and cozy.

I decided to give Molly a good brushing to distract her from the sleet hitting the windows. She wasn't thrilled but she did endure. I think that had more to do with the treats on hand than my brushing techniques though.

hugs,
Sharlene and the Molly Muffin

[Boriss McCall]

Starting to FINALLY get a tiny bit of a chill in the air here in Texas.
After this food talk now I am hungry. I think I need to make s'mores here in Texas. yum!

[molly muffin]

and now smores! You guys are really killing me. I can't have anything until after some medical tests in the morning. :( Well, except for like 6 glasses of water an hour before the test. It just doesn't compare!

Sharlene

[Trish]

Hi Julie
Hope Hannah is having some relief from her skin problems, hope all good with you
Trish xx

[jmac]

Hi Guys-

We had the derm appointment today. The vet was definitely impressed by the amount of paper work that was faxed over for Hannah (and I think it was only the past two years!), and told me that she could tell "this dog gets some excellent care" right when we met. She looked her over (although not quite as carefully as I anticipated, although I held her for most of the visit) but seemed to suspect Sarcoptic Mange from the get-go. She did something where she scratched her ear to see if she moved her back leg. She didn't do much there, but I told her that last night when I was wiping the inside of her ear she was moving her back leg like crazy. I'm not sure if that is a definitive sign or what. She said she has seen like 8 cases in the past week and that it is endemic here. She said a couple of the dogs didn't have classic signs at all. So, they applied Revolution before we left and we came home with two more doses for Hannah and three doses for Izzy.

She also tested her skin for yeast. She used tape (no slide scraping) and did one area of her neck and two of her feet. She also swabbed her ears, which were clean, but VERY itchy. It came back that there was not yeast on her neck, which if it's true, I am thrilled about because it means the ketoconazole wipes worked. Her ears were also clean. However, her feet were "loaded" with yeast.

This is where things got a little concerning for me because her recommendation was to treat orally with ketoconazole so we can take care of any yeast on her body. I told her I was very concerned about that since my two other vets (at two different clinics) have concerns about giving her that with elevated ALKP, ALT, and GGT. She didn't seem to have those concerns at all. She said she thought it would be safe and mentioned that it is actually a treatment for Cushing's. Of course I have seen this, and told her that I really didn't think it was used much, and that no vet that I talked to mentioned it as an option if they were ever to treat her. (My dad was with me on this visit-to drive so I could hold Hannah on the trip-and seemed to think it was funny that I was challenging her. I told him I have read a TON and talked to my vets extensively so I had no problem questioning this).

She again told me that she thought it would be totally fine, but that she didn't want to force me to do something I was uncomfortable with. She said that I could continue using the wipes all over her feet and legs and wherever she is itchy. She then recommended floconazole as an alternative and said it is safer. She said it isn't supposed to be metabolized by the liver, but that she felt it still probably was somewhat. She also said it would be really cheap.

She summed it up by saying the Revolution was worth trying because of her intense itching, but that we have to take care of the yeast too, in order to stop the itching. I get that, and realize that we many not know if she does have mange because of the yeast causing itching as well. I mentioned that Izzy really is not itching and she said Hannah could just be more sensitive to it because of possible Cushing's or a diminished immune system. She wants to see her again in four weeks to see how she is doing. I can pick up fluconazole whenever I want if I choose to try it.

I remember when Glynda suggested Sarcoptic Mange months ago, and I looked back and saw that it was 12/23/11. I don't think it's possible she had it then because it would've been a year and I didn't do any treatment for it. My regular vet questioned demodectic mange last spring, but didn't think she showed typical signs.

The derm vet asked about wildlife in our area and how much Hannah is outside. I said we have seen foxes, raccoons, and coyotes in the past, but not lately, and that Hannah is outside for about 2 min. only to go to the bathroom, but she seemed to think it was still possible.

I'm sort of confused about the whole thing. I guess we'll see what happens. I read I should wash their beds/blankets etc. for mange, but she didn't tell me that. Does anyone know if that is true? And Izzy is getting groomed tomorrow so I am going to "Revolutionize" her tomorrow night.
I'd also appreciate any thoughts on the ketoconazole or fluconazole. My regular vet did think I could try the keto if we checked her liver values after a week. The more holistic vet, however, seemed pretty against it. I hate that it's such a difficult decision to make her feel better. Ugh. I'd love some advice!

Julie & Hannah

[lulusmom]

Hi Julie,

It sounds like the vet is guessing at sarcoptic mange and that's what they do most of the time as it is very difficult to get a mite on a skin scraping. The female mite burrows deep under the skin and lays eggs as she goes. This causes an inflammatory response and makes the dog itch like crazy. It is very contagious and you can get it too but it's much milder for us and usually goes away without intervention. I've had it on my stomach and it does itch.

If Hannah had scabies for a year she would probably have no hair left and would have had serious fungal infections long before now. I can tell you, however, that the ear crusties don't show up until later in the infestation. Revolution works well and I've used a ton of it. Whenever there is an infected dog who has exposed other dogs, everybody gets Revolution. The last rescue we had exposed two households, including mine. We had to treat 15 dogs and none of those we treated ever developed a problem. Early prevention is a good thing. Our vet contacted a derm vet who said to apply Revolution every two weeks for severe infestations so check with your vet about this.

Once you treat, you should launder the dogs' bedding in hot water and dry them in the dryer on hottest heat. Use a disinfecting spray in areas frequented by the dogs. I found that it's impossible to disinfect everything but I focused on certain areas where the dogs live like their sleeping area, the sofa and surrounding areas. A good commercial disinfectant spray is best.

It's completely possible that Hannah doesn't have sarcoptic mange but if she does, Revolution will will the mites and the fluconazole should clear up any fungal infection. I would prefer fluconazole over ketoconazole so I'm not sure why your vet didn't prescribe that to begin with. :confused:

Glynda

[jmac]

Hi Glynda,

Thanks for your thoughts! Can you give me an idea of a disinfectant you might use? Like Lysol? I am starting on the beds/blankets tonight and will finish tomorrow after Izzy is groomed and I get the Revolution on her. I talked to a vet tech tonight who also told me to vacuum everything really well.

Hannah was at my parents' house today before the visit, and spent the night there a couple of weeks ago. They have four dogs. Do you think they need to be treated (if Izzy really isn't itching)? Can they watch and wait? Hannah and Izzy have to stay there next weekend when we go see my in-laws too.

So you think the floconazole would be safe with her unknown liver issues? The ALT did drop but is still 186 so they are still concerned. I wonder why the other vets never thought of it???

Julie & Hannah

[lulusmom]

Hi Julie,

I can't remember the name of the disinfectant I used. I got it at a janitorial supply. Lysol is certainly better than nothing but I wanted to make sure I had hospital quality disinfectant. I did forget to mention to vacuum everything as any crusty flakes that fall off the dog can be full of mites waiting for the perfect host.

It's always better to treat any dog that has been exposed as soon as you have a diagnosis. If you treat right away, you can avoid a full blown infestation and making the dog suffer. Scabies is so incredibly itchy and my heart broke for the last little guy we had that was infested. That poor guy got no sleep and neither did his foster mom.

Both Ketoconazole and Fluconazole effect the liver but Ketoconazole is more likely to cause liver toxicity. I think you will be okay giving the Fluconazole to Hannah. I had a darling little foster Shih Tzu, Mabel, who had demodex with resultant yeast infection. She also had uncontrolled cushing's and was given Fluconazole. It cleared up the yeast infection with no problems.

[jmac]

Thanks, Glynda. Did Mabel have multiple elevated liver enzymes? Did you adopt her out within the last year? I feel like I remember you telling about her.

I'll vacuum tomorrow (I always do on Sun. anyway) and again on Mon. or Tues. The vet tech said to do it again a couple of days after treating. We'll wash the beds again too. That's a big job since there are 5 beds and three blankets! I will have to wash Hannah's t-shirt and sweater too. She needs them to keep her protected from her own scratching, but I'm guessing we want to get the mites off of those too (assuming there are any).

Thanks!

Julie & Hannah

[lulusmom]

Yes, Mabel had elevated liver enzymes as she was not yet diagnosed so her cortisol was out of control. Mabel was adopted in early 2008 by a wonderful couple who adored her. She was tragically killed December 21, 2008. She had gone out the back door with her dad and neither mom or dad knew it. When dad backed out of the garage, he ran over her. It was awful. We were all devastated but her dad was beyond devastated and ended up in counseling to help deal with his guilt and grief. Mabel had been through so much pain and suffering and I am so grateful that she spent the last year of her life being loved and adored by me, Gil, her new mom, dad and brother, also with cushing's. The anniversary of her passing is fast approaching and I can't believe it's been four years. She is forever in my heart.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/album.php?albumid=20&pictureid=234

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie, hope this helps to get things cleared up on little Hannah's skin. Poor thing. It sure would be awesome for her to have some relief.

Oh gosh, that is so sad about Mabel's tragic outcome. I'm sure her new family was just devastated. :(

Good luck with Hannah,
Hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[addy]

Hi Julie,

Sorry for the news on the mange and all the work trying to get rid of it. How is our little girl doing?

Always thinking of you.
((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))

[Bailey's Mom]

Merry Christmas and the happiest of New Years!!!!!!!
May all of your Christmas wishes come true...
May we all stay away from any and all cliffs,
Peace and Joy to all!
-Susan

[addy]

I truly hope you are not sick with the bugger boo flu:(:(:(

Merry Christmas Hannah and Julie. It has been a hard year, I know, but I hope you found Christmas.


(((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))) )

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[Baileysmom]

Hello Julie,
I've been reading your posts, and I have a dog that has the same/similar issues as your sweet baby Hannah. He has recently been confirmed to have Cushings, but he also has issues with his hips and legs. He has a difficult time standing and tends to sway and wobble. He also has trouble walking outside to use the bathroom, and at times has pooped while lying down because he can’t get up on his own. And he gets totally mortified when he does this. I know he is so frustrated and confused about this.
When he standing or walking, his back legs are quite close together and will cross over each other causing him to stumble. His back feet also curl under causing him to stumble as well. I know, from x-rays, he has some arthritis in his hips and knees, and I know that Cushings causes muscle loss/weakness, but now I am thinking it make be in his back and possible disk/nerve related.

Last week (Wed) he went in for his first acupuncture treatment and the following day (Thursday) I started him on Vetoryl. By Friday, he couldn’t get up at all and couldn’t even stand with the support of my boyfriend and I holding him up. He is a 94 lb dog and quite heavy. I know that they said acupuncture causes some weakness for a couple of days, but this was beyond that. Due to feeling he was overmedicated, I stopped the Vetoryl yesterday (Sunday) in hopes that he would regain some strength. He has regained some and can get up and move around a little easier, but still not where he should be.

As for the Cushings meds, I have decided to stop treatment on that (for now) because of his age (turns 13 in February) and I am afraid it will cause him to have no mobility or movement at all. I would rather him live the remainder of his life able to walk and to be as pain free as possible. Right now, I have him on Tramadol, Metacam, Cosequin, Milk Thistle and Fish Oil.

Do you think the acupuncture has been effective? His second appointment is this Wednesday. I have also wondered about Gabapentin too. What has been working for Hannah?? I am willing to try anything.

Thank you, Julie

[molly muffin]

Merry Christmas Julie and Hannah!

Stay warm and have a wonderful Christmas.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Tina]

Merry Christmas Julie to you and Hannah. I hope you have a wonderful holiday with your family.

Love and hugs,

Tina, Jasper and Shelby

[Trish]

Merry Christmas to Julie and Hannah, have a great day!
Trish and Flynn xx

[jmac]

Hi everyone-

Just a quick note to let you know we are alive and doing fairly well. I will update more later, and plan to check in on all of you as well. I have family coming over for dinner in a couple of hours and then my brother-in-law will be coming to stay with us tonight before leaving for New York tomorrow morning. When the guys are hanging out tonight, I hope to have a chance to get caught up.

Until then, Merry Christmas to all!

Julie & Hannah

[Trish]

Hi Julie
Hope Hannah is doing ok and her skin troubles are easing :)
Trish xx

[Trish]

Happy New Year to Julie and Hannah!! Hope you are enjoying the holidays and Hannah is getting some relief! Have great night xx

[molly muffin]

Happy New Year Julie and family. I hope you have a wonderful new year and Hannah does well this year.

Cheers,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[jmac]

Hi Everyone,

Happy New Year to all of you! I am sorry I am not able to keep up with posting on everyone's threads, but I do read and check in as often as I can. I am so busy taking care of Hannah, working hard, and trying to make time for myself, that I just can't be on here as often as I'd like.

I know I've never been good at making time to take care of me, do things for myself, etc., but I went to see a psychic over my winter break (this is the first time I've done anything like that) and she told me right away things that I already know about myself:
1.I am a perfectionist
2. I am responsible and therefore I am either asked or volunteer to take on extra duties.
3. I try incredibly hard to live up to everyone's expectations.
4. I take on the burdens and problems of those around me, including my 20 students, and feel responsible for "fixing" and solving their problems.
5. I don't make time to take care of me, or relax and enjoy my hobbies.

So, as a fresh start to the new year, I am trying to do a better job of making time for me and taking care of me, along with everyone else, of course. ;) Please know I feel guilty all the time for not doing a better job keeping up on the forum, especially because I would not have made it through the past two years with Hannah without all of you, and I hope that I will be able to post more often in the future. But also know that even though I am not always posting, I am doing my best to check in and follow along, and I think of you all daily.

Here is the update on Hannah. There was not a huge difference in her itching after the second application of Revolution for possible Sarcoptic Mange. We had a follow up appointment with the derm vet last week. She checked about 10 samples from Hannah's feet, neck, armpits, tummy, tail, etc. for yeast because that was also an issue for her. There was NO YEAST! :D:D:D:D The vet said it was almost amazing that I was able to get rid of it because there was so much on her feet. But she also said that she was not surprised that if anyone was able to do it that it would be me. ;) I was completely dedicated to using the wipes twice a day on any itchy areas and it worked!

So the good news is that we no longer have to worry about an oral medication for the yeast. The bad news is that she still doesn't know what is causing the itching. This vet is wonderful, caring, and thorough, and truly wants to do what is best for the patient in front of her, and genuinely wants me to feel happy with the plan as well.

We decided to put Hannah on Atopica to see if it helps. I had discussed this in the past with both other vets, and everyone feels confident about its safety and potential to help Hannah. We started it on Thurs. and she started with a very low dose and is having me gradually increase it to minimize any side effects (usually an upset stomach or reluctance to eat). Hannah is doing fine so far. I also have steroid drops for her ears because they are SO itchy, but clear from any infections, and betamethasone cream for her itchy spots on her feet to use as needed. We have a follow up appointment in 6 weeks, unless something comes up sooner.

As far as Hannah's liver issues, I basically have decided not to pursue further diagnostics at this point. She will be 14 in March and she isn't showing any real strong signs of Cushing's or liver problems right now. My primary vet and I talked at length about treating what is affecting Hannah now and causing her discomfort, and that is the itching.

I was open to an ultrasound if it had the potential to help us treat her. Since they all seem to agree that they really wouldn't know what was wrong without either a biopsy or fine needle aspirate, which I don't want to put Hannah through, we all are in agreement that it doesn't make much sense. If she has a tumor I wouldn't try to treat it at this point, and at her age there isn't much we could do to help with liver disease. She is already on Denamarin and she didn't respond to the antibiotics they tried her on earlier, which is one of the treatments for liver disease. The other thing they sometimes do is treat with steroids, but my vet and I agreed that if she declines and we want to try steroids at the end, we will. They also said that sometimes even after all of that testing they still don't find the origin.

I think I will probably have Hannah's blood work checked in the next few weeks, just for my own knowledge, and because she is kind of a mystery to all the vets she sees. But from this point on I am basically going to respond to her clinical signs.

I know I have given her a wonderful life. I will do whatever I can to keep her comfortable for whatever time she has left, but I am not going to go to extremes to keep her with me forever.

She still follows me around everywhere, with her little "cone" swaying from side to side when she trots (which is pretty cute, although I can't wait to get it off her permanently), making sure she never loses sight of me. She's the sweetest little dog I could ever have asked for; I have no doubt she is my doggie soul mate.

For now, aside from her itching, she is happy and doing well. I don't want her to spend the rest of her life in an e-collar unable to scratch her itches because I know that cannot be a very enjoyable life. So I will do whatever I can to relieve her itching and keep her comfortable.

I'm sorry for the long post, but I wanted to get everyone up to date. Thanks so much for checking in on us and keeping us in your thoughts. I appreciate it more than you know. This forum is filled with the most wonderful people. We are so lucky to have each other. :)

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

I am glad you started the Atopica and I hope it helps little Hannah. Not sure you had many options left so I think you have thought everything through. I know it is expensive and was a hard decision to make.

Julie, dont feel badly about your time on the forum. We all do what we can when we can but if we dont take care of ourselves we are of no use to anyone:):)

You are and have been and always will be an incredible Mom to Hannah. Never doubt that.

I sure hope our little girl gets to take that cone of soon. Crossing my fingers for results.

Hang in there, you'll make it.

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie! Yay, no yeast. That is progress. Now hopefully the Atopica will help other areas too.

Never fear, we'll remind you to take some time to yourself. Maybe set aside some time during each day, and some special time at least once on the weekend too for just you. Read a book (for fun, not work) paint your nails, or do anything else that you really enjoy. At least you will feel like you are you again if you can do that.

Hannah is such a little sweetheart. She knows that you love her and she loves you. Right there by your side. We all have our happy place, I bet that is hers.

You know, you speak the truth, when you say, their time comes and while we want it so very much, there is only so much that can be done and sometimes trying to prolong past that point is not a good thing. Not for them and not for us. You are very wise to recognize that fact.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hi Julie and Hannah

I am so happy to hear Hannah is yeast free! YAY hope that new med does the trick and gets on top of that darn annoying itch.

Go you... putting out that list and working on it. I am the same this New Year, making a bit more look after myself. My GP's nurse called me last week and I am late having my yearly checkup and I got quite cranky with her :o Said I was too busy and stressed at the moment... well HELLO isn't that time to get a checkup when you are stressed and not taking good care of yourself!! So best I go in later this week and get it taken care of - and apologise for my grump. I would not let Flynn get so overdue for a checkup. Then I told myself there is not much point getting him all fixed up and then I cark it! (Not that I am in any danger of doing that, so don't worry :D) Anyway, the point of all that was we all have to take better care of ourselves and I am glad you pointed that out as it reminded me! :o.

Take Care Julie and Hannah!
Trish and Flynn xx

[addy]

Hey Girlfriend,

How is Hannah adjusting to the Atopica? I am hoping maybe we are close to getting that dang cone off.

Back to school after winter break must be hard. I hope you are not having rebound flu!!!!!

Did you have this mild weather too? Crazy winter again. Remember last year? Almost a repeat here in Milwaukee.

Miss ya

[jmac]

Hey Guys,

Guess who got to make TWO trips to the emergency vet this weekend??? That's right....this girl. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Izzy went on Sun. night after having diarrhea and bloody mucus. She started the diarrhea on Thurs. afternoon, I think because she ate rabbit poop, which has caused this in the past. We did hamburger and rice starting that night. Sat. morning there was a soft stool so the vet had me start metronidazole. Sun. night she had diarrhea and lots of mucus, and was sitting with her butt up in the air (which I learned they call the "prayer position"), so we went in around 10:00.

The other thing I mentioned while we were there was that Izzy woke me up in the middle of the night Sat. scratching like crazy. She almost had wounds. She never itches, so I had no idea what was going on. Her skin was very pink as well. The vet thought the skin and diarrhea could be related. We added Benadryl to the mix for a few days. The vets are really wondering if there is something in my house or yard causing this itching in both dogs. Izzy seems to be doing better and her skin is looking better, so maybe the itching and diarrhea were related???

Then last night after coming in from our last trip outside to potty, Hannah was acting very strange and kept stretching with her feet out front and butt up in the air, and was pulling her neck way to one side and groaning. She was shaking too. I immediately thought of her back since there are some slippery spots outside. We got dressed and headed back to the vet.

She is always very nervous at the vet and typically very stoic, so they can't always find what hurts easily. He was concerned about the possibility of abdominal pain (and mentioned that prayer position again). She did show some pain when he felt her abdomen, and also when he felt her back, but it was very subtle and he needed me to interpret her quiet little groan to tell him that was pain for her.

The vet was shocked that we were there the night before, and also concerned that Hannah's pain could be related to Izzy's diarrhea and abdominal pain. He didn't think further tests were warranted because she wasn't showing him a lot of pain while we were there, and she was able to walk/trot in the room, which is unusual when she is having a back issue. He sent us home with some pain med (some narcotic that starts with a 'b') that I was only supposed to use if she showed pain when we got home. He was not comfortable giving metacam, even though she used it for back problems before, especially without knowing if it would develop into abdominal issues.

Hannah was pretty normal when we got home, so we did not give the pain med. I talked to the vet this morning and he thought it could have been a little pinch that she worked out. I had my parents take her for a laser treatment today just in case. I'm so lucky and thankful they are close, retired, and able and willing to help me out. Hannah seems to be doing well and acting normal.

It was a stressful weekend (I was also doing tons of grading, as we send report cards home on Fri.) and I shed many, many tears last night on the way to the vet, fearing the worst. :(

I especially hope Izzy's skin issue resolves. I just don't know how she could suddenly start itching too, but months after Hannah. The vets seemed stumped too.:confused: It's always a mystery here, that's something I can just about count on!

Anyway, I am really trying hard to focus on the positive after asking my husband "why is this happening?" through tears several times on the way to the vet last night. Most importantly, I am so glad both of my little girls are doing okay today, and I sure hope that continues. We also lucked out and paid only a little more than the minimum for the visit to the emergency clinic on each trip. My previous experiences have usually ended up being a minimum of a few hundred, and that was about our total for the two.

Needless to say, we didn't get much sleep the last couple of nights, so here's to hoping tonight will bring some much needed rest. Please keep your fingers crossed for us. I sure hope our visits to the vet are over....at least for a few days! :rolleyes:

Julie & Hannah (& Izzy too!)

[molly muffin]

Oh my gosh Julie. What an awful weekend. Isn't that weird that both Izzy and Hannah was doing the butt in the air thing. I wonder if they didn't both get into something (like the rabbit poop) in the yard that disagreed with them. Strange about the itching too. A permanent state of confusion with Hannah. LOL I can certainly relate as you said on my thread, many of the same things, but yet not quite, but All a mystery. It can be unsettling.
Cold here too. Molly is Not a fan and isn't particularly interested in hanging about outside much when it's this cold.
Hang in there! Spring break Has to be just around the corner!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[lulusmom]

Hi Julie,

I know exactly how you feel when one pup is sick and then add another within 24 hours and the anxiety is overwhelming. I'm glad that both Izzy and Hannah are doing better, which means you are too.

The pain med the er gave you was probably Butorphanol (Torbutrol). I've brought that home from the vet's office a few times for pain as well as Jasper's coughing. It can really make them dopey.

Tell those girls to quit making mom fret. We're always here if you ever need a shoulder to cry on.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hey Guys,

Guess who got to make TWO trips to the emergency vet this weekend??? That's right....this girl. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Izzy went on Sun. night after having diarrhea and bloody mucus. She started the diarrhea on Thurs. afternoon, I think because she ate rabbit poop, which has caused this in the past. We did hamburger and rice starting that night. Sat. morning there was a soft stool so the vet had me start metronidazole. Sun. night she had diarrhea and lots of mucus, and was sitting with her butt up in the air (which I learned they call the "prayer position"), so we went in around 10:00.



Gosh, Julie, so sorry to hear this and I hope both girls are feeling better real soon.

That "prayer position" is very common when a dog is experiencing a pancreatitic attack, especially along with the diarrhea, did the vet say any thing about testing for pancreatitis?

[addy]

Oh Julie,

Did the Benadryl help Izzie? What a stressful weekend, two sick dogs to emergency is really hard. (((((((hugs))))))))))))))))
Sometimes no matter how hard we try to stay positive, we just need a quiet night to vegetate and go into that denial state, watch mindless TV or a movie.

I am dearly hoping that things have calmed down today and the three of you are feeling better.

I can always tell when Zoe eats bunny poo, her poos smell weird the next day.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: They sure do love it, dont they and if your house is like mine the bunnies are everywhere this winter.

I hope you did not have to cope with this frigid weather as well.

Feel better and let us know how you are all doing, okay?

love ya

[jmac]

Thanks for the support, everyone. Tues. night everything was normal, and last night too....until 3:00 a.m. this morning when we had another episode.

Hannah woke me up walking around the room, which isn't totally out of the norm. I got up and put her back in her bed, which usually leads to her falling asleep again. She got up again and continued to wander. I tried to give her the Denamarin pill (she thinks of it as a treat and I thought she might go back to sleep) and she wouldn't eat it. She spit it out twice. I knew something was wrong.

I took Hannah out into the living room and the weird stretching began again. I went to get my camera to video it so I could show a vet. Of course after about a min. it said the memory card was full. She did actually sit in the "prayer position" for about 5 seconds, which really made me think this was abdominal pain. She wanted to go outside and she peed and pooped (and she had already pooped about 7:00 p.m.). The poop was normal.

We went back in and she sat under the dining room table and shook a little. I picked her up when she came out and just held her. She had a couple of episodes where she would tense up, stretch her neck out, then relax. After about 10 min. total she was acting normal again. This was just like Mon. night.

She did take her pill about 6:00 this morning and I fed her rice and canned ID, which is what Izzy is eating. She did want to eat. The only thing I can think of is that I tried a new flavor (chicken) of the regular brand of canned food they eat (Natural Balance) last week. I don't remember if Izzy ever ate it though, and Hannah has had it a few times. I don't give her much, since she eats the Royal Canin SO Rx diet. I don't know if that is causing these issues???

Izzy no longer needs the Benadryl, so whatever that was also passed, and it makes me think it was related to her diarrhea. She pooped this morning for the first time since Sun. night before her trip to the emergency vet, and it was solid.

I don't know if Hannah is experiencing gas pains or how it passes so quickly. I have been up since 3:00 and wrote sub plans in case I couldn't come to work. Since she was acting fairly normal, I went to work. I asked my parents to pick up both of them and take them to their house to watch them. I left a message for my vet to call me to see if they have any ideas.

This is truly bizarre. Regardless, we are done with that food. I assume their issues are related, but I have no idea. I worry that Hannah's could be related to her liver or whatever else is going on in her abdomen, but I don't know why it would pass so quickly.

I'd love to hear any thoughts you have...

Thanks,

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Well, I dont have an answer either, I guess we will wait to see if it happens again without Hannah eating the other food. So her stool was normal, not greasy looking, not green or yellow or blackish, no funny smell, no mucus?

Let us know what the vet says. In the mean time I am sending

(((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))) )))))

[molly muffin]

That must have been scary Julie. Poor little Hannah. :( Could it be her pancreas? Did they check for that at all? Sounds like pain. If you change the food and this stops then I wouldn't go with the chicken any longer. This never happened with the other flavor right?

Hope all is well and this stops.

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly muffin

[addy]

Hey Julie,

I was thinking about you and Hannah and wondered how she is doing. I was thinking about the possibilty of a side effect from the Atopia. Did you ever start it? It lists muscle cramps as a possible side effect and has quite a few drug interations as well. It also says to give it one hour before or two hours after food.

Just was wondering if that may have something to do with whatever is bothering poor little Hannah.

Stay warm!!!!!

[milosmom]

aww julie i hope your hannah is feeling better today.will be watching you guys...patty(milo)meka xoxox..... my milo would do that stretching thing a few times a day also,not surew what that was either,he didn't appear to be in pain,but hard to say...

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I hope it is food related and not neurological. It's promising that Izzy is over it.

On FB someone was warning that Nutro had changed their formula and that some dogs were having serious issues. So don't switch to that! hugs, Judi

[addy]

Hi Julie,

I am sorry to read of Izzy's issues and I hope the little one feels better soon. Do they think it is a food allergy? Poor Izzy and when they act like Kujo it just makes it harder to help them sometimes. I have been taking my thumb and fingers and placing it on the top of Zoe's neck when she acts up, I lightly apply a tiny bit of pressure as if it was a mom dog mouth and she stops. :confused: Sounds weird but it works and it does not hurt so what they hey:D:D:D:D I need my fingers for my job:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Two sick pups at one time keeps a girl busy, for sure. Did you ever start Hannah on the Atopia? I just wondered if you had and if it was helping her. I hope she is out of her cone, I am looking for a new soft cone for Zoe for her surgery. It is the one thing I am unhappy about as she has no hair on her neck from her last surgery and her skin is thin, I really dont want her wearing one.:(:(:(

We are getting snow and then below zero again. I think last winter and the beginning of this winter had us all spoiled because we cant handle it:rolleyes: Hubby, the pups and I just want to hide in the house. I was going to write Sharlene and asklher cant she keep Alberta and her clipper in Canada please:D:D:D:D:D:D

[molly muffin]

hi Julie,
How are Hannah and Izzy doing now? How are You doing?! I hope you are getting plenty of sleep at night. Hard to face a class full of energy kids with no rest I imagine.

Addy, I wish they'd keep them in Alberta all together. I live in dread of the weatherman saying "we have an Alberta clipper heading our way, should be here XXX day". You know it's time to stock up the food supplies and tell the office you'll be working from home for a few days. :)

Check in when you get the chance Julie! Spring break has to be coming soon right!?!

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for checking on us. I think we're finally back on track here. We're not sure if Izzy had a food allergy, or a reaction to treats, or what. It seems like that is probably the case since she had the soft stools and intense itching together twice. It's hard because the girls often sneak a few bites from the other one's dish, plus there are treats, so I was doing my best to isolate things to try to pinpoint the issue, but it's tough to know for sure. I didn't want to try to go back to the food again right now because I didn't want to potentially cause another episode. We have parent/teacher conferences this week and next, so I need sleep and calm. :p

For now she Izzy on ID food, both canned and dry. My vet said I could try that even for a month, then try introducing another food and see how she does. Izzy is a pretty picky eater, but she likes it so far. I have a feeling that will wear off in a few days, but we'll see. I want to be really careful with keeping her off of other foods right now, so I told my hubby we have to be diligent about giving her the kibble for treats too. So far she's into it, so that's good! :D

I did start Hannah on the Atopica on 1/3. She's on week 4, but I did take her off of it for a few days after consulting with the derm vet during the stomach issues. (Addy, I was right there with you wondering about the Atopica, even though she had been on it with no issues for a few weeks). The vet felt it was unlikely because they usually have issues early on if they are going to have them, but she wanted to check into it anyway, and give Hannah's little tummy a rest. There was a definite increase in itching during those few days.

Unfortunately Hannah is still in the cone. :( I am really bummed about that, but I know it is usually around week 4 that there is marked improvement. It's hard to know when exactly that will be for us since she had to take a break. The itching on her sides and armpits and backs of her front legs has definitely decreased significantly. She still wants to bite/lick her feet and scratch her chin and neck though.

The thing is, if I were Hannah and had been wearing a cone for months, I'm sure I would bite/lick/scratch everything I could when the darn thing was off too!!! So, I've been trying to think about the fact that maybe she is just trained to think, "I've got about 2 min. to itch everything." Today I am trying to keep her out of the cone to see how she does. So far she has tried to bite her feet a few times, but I've gotten her to stop. She is sleeping peacefully right now.

We go back to the derm vet on 2/16 to reevaluate. I sure hope we will see more improvement. Hannah is on the cat formula of Atopica, which is a liquid, and it is cheaper than the quote I got from our primary vet, so that is nice. The derm vet is wonderful and wanted Hannah on the cat formula so she could adjust the dose easily because she didn't want to give Hannah too much. I think it is about $60 per month on an every day dose , which isn't cheap, but my vet quoted me about $100. Of course if it works, we get to reduce the dose to every other day or less....but I don't have my hopes up yet.

I did notice one interesting thing when Hannah was on the rice and canned ID for about 3-4 days. She hardly drank any water. It was just one more thing that made me question Cushing's. It made wonder if she was drinking less because she wasn't eating the Royal Canin Urinary SO food. She has been on it for at least 7 years, and I do know that her water consumption has increased in the last couple of years for sure, but it was weird to see that dramatic decrease. I was actually worried she wasn't getting ENOUGH water. :confused:

I think I'm going to take Hannah in to have her blood work done in the next week or two, just for my own knowledge. It sure is a mystery trying to figure out what is actually wrong with her. I'll be curious to see what the liver values look like.

On another note, I'm so glad to see Trish and Naomi have been added as forum hosts, as well as the "promotion" from forum host to moderator for Addy and Sharlene. Congratulations to all of you! You guys are doing an amazing job taking care of everyone, along with all of the moderators and people who run the site. You are all wonderful!

Thanks again for checking on us. Keep your fingers crossed that our tummy troubles are over, and that Hannah continues to improve on the Atopica. I'll definitely let you know how her blood work looks when I have it checked.

Sharlene, PLEASE keep the cold weather up in Canada! We've had enough! :D

Take care,

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

I can say because Molly is on the SO food too that it does cause them to drink more. That is what it is designed to do to keep the crystals in control. Molly drink much less any time she doesn't have the SO food. I'd say at least a quarter to half less (which is actually less than they should drink normally). There are days when I don't give molly the SO, usually if I've noticed her starting to get some loose stools, then I mix something else in for a couple days and that seems to help. Then back to the SO because we've been lucky to be able to keep the crystal issue controlled using this food. I worry because then she doesn't drink enough. I don't like it, it's not what I would choose to feed her, but I worry about the crystals and stones if I don't. :(
So I right there with you on that. That too was one of the things that made us questions the cushings diagnosis. How can you have continuously high cortisol levels and Not drink a ton of water All the time and eat ravenously?
I hope that the Atopica really kicks in a lowers Hannah's itching in all areas. I do wonder since having been on the cone so much if part of it isn't what you suggested, that as soon as the cone comes off, it's opportunity time. She is after all a smart little whipper snapper. :)
Good luck with the parent-teacher conferences. Always a busy time in my teacher friends lives.

I swear I'm trying, but it seems that going outside and waving your arms around trying to shoo the darn thing northwards just isn't working all that well. :(

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[Trish]

Hi Julie and Hannah and Izzy!

Boy, you have had things going on. I was wondering if Hannah perhaps had gall bladder issues, with the discomfort being so episodic? Does it come on after meals, any fatty treats or anything like that? Glad to hear her itching is somewhat better though, must be nice to see her out of the evil cone!!

Good luck for the parent/teacher interviews, that must be such a busy time for you.

Fingers crossed for no more tummy upsets or itchy episodes for your two!!

Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[SoggyDoggy]

Hi Julie,

You have two WEEKS of parent interviews? :eek::eek::eek: OMG, don't know how you could do that! We have 4 hours of 5-10 minute appointments to talk to all of our parents. It's full on non stop talking during that time and we inevitably have to ring a few afterwards that we didn't get to see, but at least it is over in one night! Wow, 2 weeks I just couldn't do. You deserve a medal for that!

As for Hannah's allergies, I do so hope you manage to get a hold on them soon. My Oscar is an itchy scratchy boy too, and even going through the desensitisation program with the dermatologists, he is still really bad. Aside from being allergic to any and all preservatives in food, he is also allergic to ants and grass. So we have a never ending cycle of chewing of feet going on. I know what you mean about them waiting till you turn your back to have a good lick and chew. Ironic really, I medicate one to bring cortisol down, while the other I give pred to boost it up. You'd think they would just share wouldn't you? :p:p:p

[addy]

Zoe ate the canned ID for a year, she could not tolerate the dry. She also drank very little water when she was on it but that usually happens when they are on wet food. She started chewing her paws though when I put her on it. I always thought it was the corn in it but when I finally weaned Zoe off of it she still chewed her paws:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I am going to stay positive that the Atopia will work and you can switch to every other day. I know how happy you will be if she can be cone free:):) That is what I am dreading for Zoe's surgery, they plan to leave her stitches in for 3 weeks:eek::eek::eek:


Hugs and love, stay warm!!!!!
Get well Izzy and Hannah!!!!!!

[jmac]

Hi Guys,

We had another visit to the vet today. Hannah had a normal stool, followed by some straining and a little diarrhea. She was also acting like she had an upset stomach or was in some pain after. I decided to take her in to check. She was acting normal again about 20 min. later, and I wondered if it was just from straining to go. She sometimes is weird if she doesn't have regular walks, and it's like she can't quite get it all out.

As long as we were going, I decided to have her blood work checked and I brought in a stool sample. The vet said her intestines had fluid in them and wanted to send out the stool sample. I agreed, even though I doubt there is anything because Izzy was clear a couple of weeks ago.

He thoroughly examine her while we were there and found a pea-sized growth on her upper right gum/jaw area. It doesn't look too good. He said it could be nothing or cancer. He recommended I watch it for a week or two to see if it grows. I also emailed the derm vet about it because I know cyclosporine (Atopica) can cause an overgrowth of gum tissue, but that isn't what this looked like to me. I don't have a good feeling about it. I also felt like the vet spent a lot of time feeling her neck, which made me wonder if he was thinking her lymph nodes felt strange, although he never said anything.

He wants to get the stomach thing figured out first and told me to try not to stress about her mouth. She's on metronidazole for a few days. She's been totally fine tonight. I don't even know if there was a real issue. She ate some of Izzy's dry ID and I wonder if that affected her. Vet said it was unlikely. He told me to skip the Atopica tonight because of her upset stomach. I did, but I'm frustrated about that too, because we may never get to the point where she is better if we keep having to stop!

As for the blood work, her hemoglobin and hematocrit were a touch low again, but not enough to worry him, her ALKP was about 700 (down from 900 in Dec.)...and the ALT....NORMAL at 53! :confused::confused::confused: I'm baffled. It was 186 in Dec. and over 200 in Nov. My vet really had no explanation for why this was, and said sometimes that just happens. I'm glad we didn't get an ultrasound.

So, if we didn't have the possible stomach issue and now the mouth growth, things would be looking pretty good. Ugh. I don't know what to think. I'm going to post the picture I took (it's not the best) in my photos. The growth is right by my thumb nail. It looks like a round bump sticking out from her gum and it's hard.

Julie & Hannah

[Trish]

Hi Julie

Well that's a bit of a mixed bag, I wonder if she got something stuck under her gum and it has got inflammed? Hopefully with watching it a couple of weeks as your vet suggested it will settle down again. Fingers crossed for that. Great to see her liver tests better though :D:D I guess you are back in limbo land with the stool test and seeing what is going on with her gut. :confused::confused: Tricky girls they are! Will keeping an eye to see what results come in. Sounds like she is a bit better overall as you say, so sometimes these little irregularities can settle on their own with a bit of time so that is what I will be hoping for Hannah.
Trish xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

Sorry about the snowstorm your way, tried to keep that Alberta Clipper over in western Canada, but no go, we'll get it bad tonight here.

Sounds like whatever the problem was with the liver values has now corrected. 53 is awesome number for her. I was told not to worry about the ALKP that those values are normally higher with dogs that have issues with crystals.
Hopefully the gum thing will turn out to be nothing. Don't let that bad feeling grab hold of you! Lets see how it does over the next couple weeks.
Got to run, work calls and I'm trying to get through some personal emails before the work ones bombard me this morning. :)
Stay warm and safe,
hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin

[addy]

Hmmm,the canned ID should not really bother her, it is highly digestible unless she is allergic to an ingredient. When Zoe would have a bit of a colitis flare, her poos would sometimes start out normal and then end up getting softer and ickier. Do you see a shine to her stool or mucus looking stuff on it? Zoe would get gas pains. It was the only time she would pant. Or it could be the Atopia

http://www.drugs.com/sfx/atopica-side-effects.html

Is it possible for the vet to aspirate the growth? I would not worry about that one yet. It could be a number of things.

Oh Julie, I am so sorry you are having to deal with all these issues. I hope Izzy is better now so you dint have that worry as well.

((((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[jmac]

Thought I'd stop by to update you on Hannah. Unfortunately, the Atopica did not fully resolve Hannah's itching, but it has improved somewhat. After discussing other options (giving her a super short cut and putting topical steroids on daily, trying allergy drops-which could take a year to work, etc.) we decided it was best to increase the Atopica a bit, and add Chlor Trimeton. She also gave me a shampoo with steroid in it to try. We will keep in touch to see how things go. We also discussed going to a steroid if/when Hannah seems miserable and to see if we can get her out of the cone for the remainder of her life. She will be 14 on 3/6, and I would love to make the end of her life pleasant. She still seems happy, but I feel okay about doing a steroid if I know her time is limited and I want to provide comfort. I really don't even know if she has Cushing's anyway.

One new thing she's been doing is a LOT of licking-the cone, the floor, the door, etc. I don't know if it's a replacement behavior because she can't lick her feet, or if there's something else going on. My mom said one of their dogs is also recently doing the same thing. Hmmmm....

Both Hannah and Izzy are on ID food for now. We had so many bouts of diarrhea that I decided to put them on this for a month or so and then try to transition them to something else. Hannah got diarrhea a few days after I started her back on her SO last time. I'm so puzzled about why they both had this same issue when they eat different foods! :eek:

I took Hannah back to the vet last week to have him look at the growth in her mouth. It had grown a little and turned a little more pink. (It was more gray like her gum tissue in that area before). He thought it might have a little fluid pocket on top of it. He told me he wasn't sure he could even remove it because he may not be able to close the wound. It's on the side of her upper right gum, so I understand there isn't a lot of tissue to work with. He couldn't really tell me what he thought might happen to it. I decided to take her to a dental specialist just to get her opinion. I would hate to have it get big and irritate her if there is any way to get the thing out of there. That appointment isn't until 3/6, but they said they'd squeeze me in if it gets bad. So we wait and see...

She's going to get a bath today and a haircut tomorrow. Hopefully that will make her a little more comfortable. She's getting pretty long, especially around her face.

That's about it for us. Still try to check in whenever I can...

Julie & Hannah

[molly muffin]

Hi Julie,

I just wanted to add that Molly too started getting diarrhea on the SO food, not always, but it was pretty bad last March, 2012, and I took her off that food and put her on the maturity food for a bit, but the water intake decreased so much that I started to gradually introduce the SO back into her mature food. Then finally got her back to the SO. I keep both kinds though and if she starts to get diarrhea I just add a bit of the maturity and usually the next poop is normal again. Then I start adding back in the SO. If she would just drink enough water then I wouldn't worry so much. (strange how the vet can insist on cushings when the water intake isn't nearly what one would see with a cushings dog)

Our little ones just keep us going around in circles don't they. I hope that the denistry vet can give you some idea of what might be going on with that bump. :( Is it painful to her?

hugs,
Sharlene and Molly Muffin