Vetoryl / Cushings Disease - Dear Penny has passed

[Harley PoMMom]

I am here too and I will be checking in often. Sending huge and loving hugs, Lori

[addy]

we are all here, Cindy, we all here with you.

Love,
addy

[Nika'sMom]

I am here too Cindy, sending love and prayers..Lynda

[Cyn719]

they said they will call me - said she didnt look good - shes in pain for sure with whatever else is going on - her mouth is very dry - they said they can tell by how she is acting with her tounge - could not hold her back end up at all - wont eat - soft stools - Thank you all for being there to hold me up cause right now my legs are like jello and the crying is constant - will post when I hear - waiting as we all know is the worse part - embracing all your love - hugs and support xo

[labblab]

Cindy, I am here too. I am closing my eyes and sending hugs to you and Penny right now as I write these words.

Marianne

[lulusmom]

Cindy, I am with you in spirit and saying prayers for Penny. Positive thoughts and huge cyber hugs are being sent your way. Will be waiting with you and the rest of your k9c family.

[Cyn719]

The vet called - does not know right now what the problem is - I do not have her blood work - I will get a copy - but she said it was basically normal or very close to it - such as glucose was 122 -- liver was very slighty elevated - calcium was a slight bit elevated - nothing jumped out at her -- heart sounded good - lungs were good - but now shes doing an exam on her head and back and legs -- great - its worse when you dont know what it is!! Does anyone has any ideas?? Can a tumor on the pituitary gland that is getting bigger cause this?? Can she be in total pain from her arthritis and hock injury - never got to the orthopedic -- and can liver be so enlarged that it is pushing against her diaphram causing her to pant so much - I guess shes checking all of this -- but point blank she cant walk - could her ACTH be off so soon?? She drank so much water between last night and this morning - but no other signs of high ACTH levels - Waiting another call - hopefully soon - last one was at 420pm - again thank you to all - Amazing - fantastic - sweet - caring - loving - wonderful - supportive - I can go on and on because there are not enough words to describe all of you!! Seriously where would we be without you--- xo post soon again

[Cyn719]

I am going to lose my baby!! I cant do this - the vet said he spine is loaded with like spurs causing her not to hold herself up - the ALT was very high i had that wrong - the xray showed her liver very enlarged and very round - she didnt believe it was a tumor but not sure now and she observed what I was saying about the mouth and the tongue going in and out and feels that the pituitary tumor is putting pressure on the base of the brain - she said we can put her back on the Rimadyl and tramadol and maybe gabapentine - she doesnt know if any of this will help - I said I dont want her to suffer - she said no improvement in 4 days we need to make a decision - I have to get her bring her home and back to be put asleep - I cant do thsi!! OMG what do I do:confused::confused::confused::(:(:(:(

[labblab]

Oh Cindy! :( :( :( :(

Is your vet asking you to make the decision about Penny right away, tonight? Or can you bring her home to be with you at least overnight? Or does that feel even harder to you -- to bring her home and then to have to take her back?

We will stay here with you, no matter what. Just keep talking to us, OK?

Marianne

[jmac]

Oh Cindy, I am so sorry to hear about what you are going through. I am crying while reading your post. We can all imagine what it feels like, and I just want you to know that I will keep you and Penny in my thoughts and prayers as well. You will know if it is time to let her go. It seems like it will be such a hard decision to make, but you just know. I hope you will get to spend some quality time with Penny. We are all here for you.

Julie & Hannah

[labblab]

Cindy, Julie is right, we are all here for you. We are here for you, and we know that whatever you decide, it will be what is best for Penny. Nobody knows her and loves her better than you. So whatever you decide, it will come from your heart and from knowing her and loving her with all your heart. Penny knows that, too.

[addy]

Cindy,

My heart is breaking with yours but we need to take a deep breath for a moment, breathe and think about what is happening so you have a clear head, so you are sure you understand your options.

I know this is alot to ask of you right now and I know it is really hard but please make sure you understand your options, okay? You know Penny, you know everything about Penny. Are you sure about what this vet is saying? Does this sound true to you? You will know in your gut, you will know.

I am here with you, we all are here with you, sending you love and strength.

Love,
addy

[Nika'sMom]

Cindy, my heart is also breaking with yours. I know how much you love your Penny, and I know that she knows that too. I believe that you will do what is best for your girl. I want you to know that you are deep in my thoughts and prayers at this time. Love and hugs, Lynda

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear sweet Cindy,

What an awful day you have had to deal with. :(

If it is any consolation, I do not think a macro is the issue at all. The signs for a large pituitary tumor are different from what you are seeing. The spurs on the spine are more than likely the cause of everything you have seen in Penny the past little bit. She must be in incredible pain. :(:(

I have no doubt you will do what is best for Penny; you love her too much to do anything less. Talk to your vet and see what the options are, then make an informed decision. I also know that Penny knows how very much you love her - she has never doubted that for one single second.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

My dearest cush family - My baby is home - my vet said if Penny was hers she would take her home and see how the next 4 or 5 days goes and that will help me make my decision - Pennys liver is very enlarged and very very round - that can mean a tumor is in there or something else going on but she said even with enlarged livers round is not normal - so that is causing discomfort -- her lower lumbar is a mess - I figured that - so its hard for her to hold her lower lumbar up and with the injured hock the arthritis from the knee surgies and the muscle wasting away - that is pain and discomfort - and last she believes the pituitary tumor has enlarged cause lots of pressure in her head on the base of her brain - that is painful! She watched her carefully and saw the mouth issues - the opening of her mount half way - the sticking out her tongue like a snake and licking her chops and acting like she just took awful tasting cough medicince - she said that is all from the tumor and is a form of a seizure and they will get worse - Penny was on Rimadyl - I ran out - I figured give her a 3 day break while it was coming my mail order - she thinks I saw her get worse because the Rimadyl took the edge off - it took a little very little but a little of the inflamation down - we dont know if the Cushings got worse - she is drinking tons - but that could be from the pain shes in - so its really hard as you all know - but I think I did the right thing - and Michael can see her on the weekend - we dont know what the next 4 or 5 days will bring but I will never let her suffer!! My husband was at work at the Fire Dept when I got the call so I called him and he came home - his Captain told him not to come back - so thank God he went to get her and he is here tonight and tomorrrow night - this is like an out of body experience for sure -- but I want to say to all of you - AMAZING - FANTASTIC - CARING - LOVING - LOYAL - FAMILY - SUPPORTIVE -- those are only a few words (cause I can go on and on ) that describe all of you!!!!! OMG what would I have done without you!!! God is good - he brought me here to this forum -- I would welcome any input you have about this -- I did forget her bloodwork - I will have them fax it to me but with her results I dont know if its that important now - My girl came in - she did eat and drank and drank -- she is still doing that mouth thing - is very alert - walking is hard but doing it at the moment on her own but this is also due to her adrenaline flowing from the vets - she is trying to rest - alittle restless - again thank you and I look forward to your opinions --- xo

[Cyn719]

Leslie - my husband just asked that what symptoms do you see with a macro??

[StarDeb55]

The symptoms are dependent on the location of the tumor. Since the pit gland lies right by the forebrain, I found the following list of symptoms for tumors in the forebrain. This list is from a website at the N. Carolina State vet school, if you want the link.




The Forebrain - The forebrain is responsible for "thinking," behavior, and final integration of sensory information. Tumors in the forebrain may therefore cause:

* Behavioral abnormalities such as loss of learned behavior and depression
* Increased or decreased appetite and thirst
* Constant pacing or circling
* Decreased awareness and vision on one side of the body, causing misjudgement of openings to doorways and bumping of one side of the body
* Sometimes affected animals behave as if they are in pain
* Seizures are a classic sign of forebrain disease and in fact, new onset of seizures is the most common presenting sign of animals with tumors of the forebrain. These seizures can occur alongside any of the other signs listed above, or may occur as the only abnormality. Whenever a dog or cat that is greater than five or six years of age has a new onset of seizures, a brain tumor is a possible differential and ruled out by a full diagnostic workup.


Without some type of diagnostic imaging such as a CT scan or MRI, there is no way to conclusively say that the pit microtumor has enlarged to the point of being a macro. Your IMS or regular vet can be very suspicious based on the symptoms Penny is showing, but without the imaging there is no way to be 100% sure.

I'm really sorry that Penny is not doing well, sometimes our elder pets can surprise us, though, & I hope Penny does get to feeling better.

Debbie

Forgot to add:

Pennys liver is very enlarged and very very round - that can mean a tumor is in there or something else going on but she said even with enlarged livers round is not normal - so that is causing discomfort
Did your vet say anything concerning the possibility of a hemangiosarcoma in or around the liver or spleen?

[frijole]

I've been following along and you have been in my prayers. Continued warm thoughts and love being sent your way. Kim

[jmac]

Cindy-
I will keep you and Penny in my thoughts. Hannah and I took a trip to the ER vet tonight. She has a disc problem in her back. The prognosis is she could go either way. I can't even think about being without her without crying. I'm so glad your baby is home with you.

Julie & Hannah

[Casey's Mom]

Cindy - I am so sorry to hear about what you, your husband and Penny are going through right now. To think that you posted to me to ask how Casey was doing while you were going through all of this has the tear ducts flowing right now.

Take the time, breathe and have confidence in yourself. You are a wonderful mom and a very caring one too - Penny knows that! We are here for you and holding your hand.

Love and many hugs,

[Cyn719]

Deb thank you so much for the information - I was to drained to look it up - Penny does have some of the symptoms - but its the mouth thing that is questionable - no the vet did not say anything about a hemangioscarcoma - is that something I should ask??

Kim thank you as always for your thoughts and prayers -

Julie - I am so sorry about Hannahs disc problem - you both are in my thoughts and prayer - Julie I know how you feel right now - I feel I am right there by your side sharing the same pain - I am praying for both our babies -

Penny is home - Penny ate tonite - refuses treats - drinking alot still - but so exhausted - she had a bad nite and I know an awful stressful day at the vets - She is under close watch -

[ShannonJ92]

While my worry remains so high for my Pebbles (we're literally in limbo at the moment) I share some of my worry for those here and their babies. It breaks my heart to know that others are dealing with such painful times and painful decisions.

Cindy, I will say a prayer that the next 4-5 days gives you the insight to know what to do for Penny. I'm so sorry you're going through this and it can be absolutely agonizing. Keep posting and keep us updated. Take care of Penny and also make sure you're taking care of yourself too, however you can.

Julie, I will be saying a prayer for Hannah as well. These times can be unbearable, the unknowns and the wondering of what will be. I'm in those shoes too. Best wishes.

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Shannon what beautiful words - they mean so much - thank you -- my love and prayers are with you and Pebbles also xo

[Cyn719]

Ellen

so sorry I missed your post earlier -- why wouldnt I check in on you - the first person who responded to me way back when - Yes David is so upset also - he is as huge a dog lover as we all are - my biggest issue is with Michael - he is going to be so upset - hes 19 and we got Penny when Mike was 7! They grew up together and being the only child they were like sister and brother and even argued! lol - my heart broke when we were dropping Penny off at the vets and I turned around to see David sitting on the floor in the waiting room with Penny - wow it was a moment - thank you so much for being there and I can feel you holding my hand - xo

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

I am so sorry that you didn't get good news from the vets. It is a terrible time for all of the family and I am praying for some improvement for Penny. It is so hard to know what to do but you will make the right decisions, there comes a time when you just know. I will be thinking of you all.

Linda x

[ShannonJ92]

I hope Penny is comfortable tonight. From one night owl to another, may she and you both get some rest. I'll check tomorrow to see if there's any more updates.

~Shannon

[StarDeb55]

Yes, I would ask about a hemangiosarcoma.

Debbie

[addy]

Sending love and prayers for you and Penny. I am so sorry you are going through this.

I hope Penny is a bit more comfortable today and you had some rest.

Love and hugs,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I hope you and Penny and family were able to get a bit of rest last nite.

One of our members had a baby with a macro and she has started a thread in Everything Else about this type of tumor. You can read about her experiences, as well as others, here -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3567

You all remain in my thoughts and prayers, healing white light is flowing your way.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie - I read it and I even left her a message -

Penny was quiet during the nite - gave her a whole tramdol - she usually only takes a half - got up and ate - went back to sleep - I left at 1000am and she was still sleeping - when I got home she was in the yard - my parents came to stay with her - she got right up and did her song and dance for me - came in wanted her treats - and went back out - shes in the yard barking at the people walking by - panting alot - drinking alot - walking on her own - gave Rimadyl last night and this morning - I did call her orthopedic since she missed her appt and hes calling me back - want him to know about her lower lumbar - but still waiting for vet to call so I can ask about liver - If I though I was confused before that was nothing - so confused now:confused::confused::confused::confused: and the trilo - I didnt give it to her yesterday because when in doubt stop it - my vet said keep her off of it for another 4 days? should I ? should I call Dr Allen? If shes drinking more and more it could be the cushings kicking back in but the vet said it could be the pain so I am more confused:confused: Thats my middle name - thanks for the concern and the help xoxo also does anyone have any other questions I can be asking the vet?

[lulusmom]

First let me say how sorry I am that you have been on the mother of all emotional rollercoaster for the last few days. A weaker person would have crumpled so for what it's worth, I'm very proud of you. Penny is incredibly lucky to have you as her mom.

I'm really not sure what is going on with Penny but I was impressed with her bloodwork. It was pretty darn good consdiering her physical state when you took her to the vet. If Penny's current problems are, in fact, bone spurs on the spine and a macrotumor, then your vet gave you some sound advice about withholding Trilostane. Cortisol is the body's natural form of prednisone, the most effective anti-inflammatory you can give a dog, so if you let the cortisol rise, you should see some improvements in both conditions. For the record, I'm still not comfortable administering Rimadyl to a dog with elevated cortisol.

[Cyn719]

Glynda - Thank you so much for your sweet and kind words -- I just read to my husband what you wrote and that makes sense - and we both agree about the Rimydal - but do I have other choices - by my vet it doesnt seem like I do - its not just basic arthritis and she said yes it causes kidney damage and liver problems but at this stage in Pennys life we need to make her comfy - I would take any suggestions from anyone on what to do at this point to replace the Rimadyl ?? Thank you again for that information :)

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy.

Believe me, you are among good company in your quest to find an alternative to Rimadyl. I believe that elevated cortisol is a good alternative but if that isn't something that sits right with you because of your vet's suggested course of action, I've included a link below to some information that may help.

I have a dear friend who has a big, wonderful, blind lab named Barney, with severe hip displaysia. She thought she was going to have release Barney from his pain but decided they had nothing to lose by trying laser treatment. She said the results were nothing short of amazing. Barney could barely stand up and now he is getting around great. She lives in Tennessee and I have no idea what the treatment is called or where it is currently offered. I'll see if I can come up with the information for you. Apparently it's a rather new procedure and is quite effective. I'll be back.

http://www.srdogs.com/Pages/rimadyl.alt.html

P.S. I found some info on laser treatment. It sound promising and is perfect for dogs with bone spurs. Check it out.
http://www.ehow.com/way_5269045_laser-therapy-treatment-calcifications.html
http://www.companiontherapylaser.com/Pages/pet-owners

[Cyn719]

Spoke this evening with pennys orthopedic - hes going to review her xrays and to see if he can offer anything else to help her - regardless of all her problems the lumbar is really disabiling her - she did ok today but when she tries to get up it is a task for her and I notice the back of her legs are just about hitting the ground - so she will see him him on tuesday -- no episodes from this afternoon on with the tongue and mouth - thats good - hubby had to go to work tonight so its just me and the baby - hope she has a good nite - I didnt really catch up in sleep last night - couldnt turn my brain off - it was on hight speed - tonight I will sleep on the couch with her - the vet said not stairs and of course our bedrooms are on the second floor - dr appt today - my bone density is really bad - need bone building meds soon (especially my hips) oh god I can now relate to the K9 with hip dysplasia - lol well how something good comes out of this and I pray Penny stays well for these 4 days - thanks again everyone - I pray each and everyday for all the dogs and their parents on this forum!! I love each one like family!! xo

[jmac]

Cindy-
Glad to hear Penny is stable for now, and that you're not seeing the licking behavior. My husband and I are sleeping on a mattress on the living room floor because Hannah is also on a no jumping/steps/extra activity plan. I am also keeping you, Penny, and all of the others I am able to keep up with in my thoughts and prayers. I hope you and Penny have an uneventful night. I could stand to catch up on the sleep I didn't get last night, but of course my brain is working non-stop as well, and every time Hannah moves I jump up to check it out.

Take care,
Julie & Hannah

[Casey's Mom]

Sleep well Hannah, Julie, Penny and Cindy.

Cushings angels are overhead keeping a close watch and hoping you have a good night.

Love and hugs,

[ShannonJ92]

Cindy, I hope you can get some rest tonight and catch up on some sleep. May Penny be able to do the same. I'm sure she knows how much you're trying to help her (I'd sleep on the couch too to watch over my furkids if need be). Good luck with your appt. on Tuesday, I really hope things go your way and there is relief to be found for her. I don't know much about Rimadyl so I can't help you on that front. Keep posting updates.

It is so clear that I am not alone in my anxiety and worry and jumping to check... Julie, what you said about Hannah proved that. Sounds almost exactly like me. May you also get some well-needed rest.

I wish I knew more of you and your furkids and their stories. I try to read what I can but when in the midst of having so much on one's plate it makes it difficult. In time though. While so much of my energy is reserved for my Pebbles I do wish the best for everyone here. It's easy to tell just from what I have read that you love your babies just as much as I love mine.

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Well we can all use a laugh right now -as I said I am going to sleep on the couch tonight to be with Penny - well the other night I slept on the Living Room couch which has the recliner in it - not comfy to sleep on - so tonite I said I am sleeping on the den couch - comfy - so I go upstairs and get a pillow and blanket - I come back down to go on the couch and yes Penny is on the den couch all spralled out!:D:D:D:D REALLY!!!!! :rolleyes: But of course her comfort comes first!! So I have a choice her expensive orthopedic large bed or the living room couch - yeah I will go on the living room couch - ouch!! lol lol :D

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

Good to hear that Penny is feeling a bit better and hope you got some sleep, even if it was on the couch!

Linda

[Cyn719]

Hi i am online trying to order penny some injections for her arthritis -- is the name adequin that most of you use?? Thanks

[Cyn719]

We took Penny to Ocean State today - that is where she had both knees operated on - he gave her a full exam of her knees back and hock - hock yes is weak - knees are pretty good - not great but ok - her problem is her back - loaded with arthritis - stenosis - spurs - all that stuff that is making her lumbar very painful - using tramadol at night - Rimadyl - Dasaquin - going to add in the shots and they spoke about adding Gabepentin (spelling?) Has anyone used this - I know no one is fond of the Rimadyl but if we take her off of it like we did for the three days she is going to have another episode like she did on Monday and I cannot put her thru that - I feel like I do not have a choice - her bloodwork is being faxed to be tonight - he said yes her liver is large - pushing alittle into diaphram but he doesnt think enough to cause her to pant like this - and like he said we dont know if the pit tumor is large enough to cause the pain and pressure -- he said maybe all the mouth stuff was her feeling sick to her stomach from all the pain she was in - maybe the mouth stuff was small seizures - but some of you said the mouth thing didnt seem like symptoms of a macro - so we are going to guess that it was sever pain and sick stomach - right now she is still eating - drinking - peeing - pooping - getting around - very difficult to get up - especially after laying for a long period - he mentioned could this be any effect from the overdose of trilo - I told him Dr Allen originaly said he didnt think she was effect - we would of known by now - but I dont think I ever asked what symptoms I would see - so please if anyone has anything to add - any input - any suggestions - ypu know I would love to hear from you!! - xoxoxoxoxox Thank you :):):)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Good to hear that Penny is doing better than she was! :D That was scary to me so I can imagine how you were feeling. :eek:

Check with the ortho doc first, but there are things you can do to help Penny move around better. There are slings you can make or buy that will support her back end plus there is always Eddie's Wheels. Doing something like this may prevent unnecessary pain while giving her back some mobility. But first, talk with the ortho doc to see how best to accomplish this. I am sure Eddie's can make a cart to relieve the pressure where it needs to be relieved. ;)

I used a sheet with Ruby when she got too weak to walk well and with Crys when she was having a really bad time. I looped in under the belly and held the ends in my hands, lifting up just enough to take the weight off then walking with them. But you have to make sure doing something like this will not cause the spurs to press into nerves, etc, so talk with the doc first.

Prayers and hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Leslie thanks I have one of those slings her from her knee surgries - I will ask him - did you see my other post asking what the name of the injections are - everyone on the forum seems to use it - Adequin??

[Cyn719]

Hi - This is Pennys blood work from when she was in the vets on Tuesday - I still dont understand the bloodwork so if you can look at it and tell me what its saying - I know that Deb usually reads everyones bloodwork so hopefully she will be along too - thanks :)

ALB 4.4 2.5 - 4.4
ALP 2400 20-150
ALT 372 10-118
AMY 852 200-120
TBIL 0.3 0.1-0.6
BUN 22 7-25
CA 11.4 8.6-11.
PHOS 5.7 2.9-6.6
CRE 1.0 0.3-1.4
GLU 122 60-110
NA+ 146 138-160
K+5.1 3.7-5.8
TP 7.1 5.4-8.2
GLOB 2.8 2.3-5.2

QC OK

[StarDeb55]

Cindy, everything looks pretty good. There are the usual elevations of alk phos & ALT. The calcium elevation is so slight, it's not concerning. Was Penny fasted for this blood work? If not, that will explain the elevation in the glucose. I'm totally not familiar with the abbreviation "AMV", so I'm not sure if you might have made a type when you posted on that one. Since that result is falling in with the other liver function tests, is there a possibility that it might be AST or GGT? If you could post the complete name of that test, it would be very helpful.

Debbie

[Cyn719]

Deb -- I believe it should of been AMY the copy is blurred so I thought it was a V - does that have to do with the pancreas I think?? Penny didnt fast but by the time they did her blood work she probably went without food from 7pm Monday till they did the blood work sometime between 130 pm and 300 pm Tuesday - when she was sick I couldnt get her to eat anything so I guess it was like fasting - I know it was a little high ?? Deb thats all the blood work she did on her - she did all in house - should I be requesting more? I know she said electroylets was fine - they didnt fax me that -- I am worried about the pancreas - spleen and I know the liver is enlarged - she sent me her notes trying to read them - a little nervous being off trilo - her appetite seems to be increasing - or maybe she just feels better and is eating better - hate the panting - thanks Deb:)

[StarDeb55]

Amy makes sense. This is the abbreviation for amylase. Was a lipase done, also? These are the 2 main screening tests for pancreatitis. Even if a lipase wasn't done, this is a substantial elevation in the amylase, & IMO, you need to have a cPL test done to check for pancreatitis. The cPL is the gold standard to make a pancreatitis diagnosis.

Debbie

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

Think it's Adequan you're thinking about. I don't use it but I googled it!

Linda

[StarDeb55]

In regards to the adequan shots, they can be very effective. I do think this is a prescription required med that you just can't go & order on-line without an order from your vet. I don't know if your vet is like mine, but if you want to order from an internet pharmacy, he tacks on an extra $12 charge to get the script. This is why I'm so lucky that Diamondback is local for me, & I can just drop off or pick up my stuff.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Cindy,
The adequan shots worked wonders for my Mickee. He had arthritis in his front leg, shoulder and back.

Their is a series of shots, some vets do 2 shots a week for a month and some do 1 shot a week for a month... then it's 1 shot every month after that and even that does vary. Mickee was able to go about 8 weeks between shots after the initial series.

Some vets will let you do the shot yourself at home.

His age and liver condition didn't allow for any of the traditional arthritis medications. So this was a godsend for him.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Debbie Linda John and Leslie --I contacted vet - I am ordering it myself on line at VetDepot - the vet is going to fax the Rx to them - that is how I order her trilo - yes going to give shot twice a week - hope it works! glad you had good results - tying to wean off the Rimadyl since its not good for her but we did and we belive thats why she ended up in the hospital Tuesday - she was in unbelieveable pain!! Now we dont know if the pain was coming just from her back - head or liver or all three?? But back on Rimadyl and shes eating drinking peeing and pooping - she ran in the yard today - and I found her upstairs on Michaels bed!!! OMG she only does that if she feels good - My vet will be in on Monday --

Debbie -
Is that the only other test you suggest for penny? cPL?? What did you think of the glucose since she did really fast since she would not eat?

Thanks all for the help - love your suggestions!!!! :)

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Cindy,

so sorry to read about all problems Penny is facing...

I wanted to comment some on the Adequan since I often wonder why people use Adequan instead of Cosequin. Adequan's own productlabel (http://www.adequancanine.us/images/AdequanProductLabel.pdf) states: Contraindications: Do not use in dogs showing hypersensitivity to PSGAG. PSGAG is a synthetic heparinoid; do not use in dogs with known or suspected bleeding disorders.
Precaution: Use with caution in dogs with renal or hepatic impairment.

Whereas the Cosequin brochure (http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/Brochures/Cosequin%20Dog%20Brochure.pdf)states: Safety studies in dogs demonstrated no adverse effects of Cosequin administration on the liver, kidneys, or other organs. Some dogs may experience a mild gastrointestinal upset such as that which occurs when switching foods. If this is the case, you can try offering your dog Cosequin with a meal.

The moment I read "synthetic" all my alarmbells go off. It's the synthetic medications like for example all the NSAID's that are most likely to cause the most problems. I personally cannot tolerate any synthetic medication for example I can't tolerate Tramadol which is completely synthetic but I can tolerate Morfine wich is more "natural"), Yunah cannot tolerate NSAID's but Adequan is as synthetic as the NSAID's... It doesn't come with warnings for no reason.

I don't mean to say to not use it because it works very well for several dogs on this board for example...but I wonder what the difference is in effectiveness between Adequan and Cosequin and if there's none (and there is none, as far as I can determine) I would always opt for the Cosequin with no cautions and warnings instead for the Adequan with the warnings and cautions.
I just wanted to let you know about this...so you can make an informed decission.

Sas and Yunah :)

[labblab]

Sas, I've never personally used either Adequan or Cosequin, but there is one important difference between the two that may contribute to the difference in the "warnings" here in the U.S. Adequan is a prescription injectable drug that is subject to the full FDA testing and approval process. Cosequin is an oral product that is classified as a dietary supplement, and falls totally outside of the FDA regulatory framework. So the procedures/requirements related to testing, labeling, and published warnings are totally different for the two products.

Aside from legal labeling requirements, from the little that I have read, it appears as though the worry about associated renal or hepatic ill effects is heightened in a situation of overdose. And I am just speculating, but perhaps there might be a greater risk of administering a megadose of Adequan since it is an injectable. Since Cosequin is an oral supplement, the risk of overdose may be less likely? But conversely, a vet might prefer or recommend Adequan for the very reason that it is an injectable -- in some situations, it may be thought to be more effectively utilized than an oral agent.

Maybe some of our members who have actually used both products can chime in with their own thoughts and experiences. But I did want to point out these differences in the two products.

Marianne

[Casey's Mom]

Casey just had her monthly Adequan shot today and afterwards I took her for a walk in a new area where she ran and I had to run to keep up! For a 40 lb dog who is 15 1/2 to me it is amazing. I will keep up her monthly Adequan injections that she has had for the past two years.

Sas I understand about the Cosequin and maybe if I had not started the Adequan two years ago I would have gone the Cosequin route as it is not a synthetic. However I would not want to switch now as I have had good results.

Love and hugs everyone,

[Cyn719]

Sas and Marianne - Thank you both for all the information Right now she does take the dasuquin - oral - and the vet said to add the adequin to it - so for those of you who have used the adequin like Marianne said I would like to know your view on it - I really dont know much about it

Penny is doing better - but of course she is off the trilo so her numbers must be going up - I came home tonight and again she was upstairs on Mikes bed and she ran down and almost knocked me over she was so happy - but all in all I know its the high cotisol - we just know we have to make her comfy and keep a close eye on her. Deb let me know if you think of any more blood test she can have - Thanks again everyone - much appreciated!!!

[SasAndYunah]

Very true Marianne... :) But the good thing about Cosequin/Dasequin is that eventhough it is just a supplement, it has been very well researched and there are lots of studies that can be found online. And again, I am not saying at al that Adeqian shouldn't be used...I am just saying, if both products have the same agree of efectiveness (and I can't find evidence that they don't) I personally would opt for the Cosequin. And especially in Cush dogs, the bleeding thing with the Adequan, would make me consider twice. For both products it's the same that they often are used in conjunction with something else like for example acupuncture, other supplements like salmonoil or some form of physical/hydrotherapy as it may increase the results. And of course, if all else fails, one hardly has any choice but to go to the NSAID's...and eventhough I really dislike using them, I would in a heartbeat if it was all that was left to increase Yunah's quality of life :) I had to make that choice with Cukie...giving him meds to increase his quality of live but that would damage his "system" to a high degree likelyhood it would shorten his life... And they did but I have not for one moment regretted that decission. So if Yunah needed Adequan or something else to increase herquality of life, I wouldn't think twice about it and go ahead :) But if there is a choice between several meds with the same amount of efectiveness and one of them (in my book) is the better option, I would go for that one first.

Sas and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

Thanks Sas for the information - I agree about using the Dasaquin over the shots but Penny has been using the Dasaquin for 4 months now and I assume it is helping but not enough and takes the Rimadyl and she still has discomfort - and going of the Rimadyl landed her in the hospital - so that is why they said to use the shots and try to back off the Rimadyl - I hate the Rimadyl but like you said if you have to use something to give her better quality of life then we will have to do it - I feel so bad everytime I give her a Rimadyl - but I cant withhold it now - she will end up in severe pain again - she seems alot better today (but I know the cortilsol levels are probably up) so that is adding to her feeling better

Everyone keep you input coming - blood test suggestions - medications another ACTH????? xo

[Harley PoMMom]

This Thread Duralactin for pain!? (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2635&highlight=duralactin&page=3) might be of interest to you.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Cyn719]

Ellen - glad to hear that the shots worked for Casey:D - I hope Penny can get some relief from the pain - she will start her shots next week - they were ordered yesterday -- did you ever use anything else for the pain?? What kind of food do you feed him?? do you give the shots yourself?? Thanks for all the info:):)

[addy]

Hi Cindy,
Stopping by to say hi and to tell you I sure hope the shots help Penny.

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Hi everyone - just an update - things are better - Penny has her appetite back - water intake I thought was increasing but its still normal - she is shedding so much - Dave gave her a bath yesterday and the fur is just falling off her!! I have been brushing her for 24 hrs and it will not stop!! So it could be shedding or it could be the levels going up??? He walking is good!! Again the levels going up?? I am so glad she is better - when the other night I though we had to have her PTS:( What a turn around -- Sometimes I wonder if she really has Cushings - I guess she does -- but when she was on the 10 mg of Vetroly she is still not right - my husband just said her hearing is so much better off the Vetroyl - everything is better off of it but if she needs it I will put her back on -- When should I check the ACTH again?? Shes been off it a week this Tuesday?? Should I wait till I see the signs of Cushings?? Calling vet to have the cPL bloodwork - and keeping on a low fat diet correct?? She does still look like she tries to stretch her low jaw alot??? suggestions welcome as always:)

[ShannonJ92]

Hi Cindy,

Oh, my... how nice to hear Penny is doing better! I have no idea about the shedding but good that you say she's walking better. I was worried the other night, felt so bad for you and her. I don't have actual suggestions for some of your concerns but I'm sure someone will come along who can offer advice. I just wanted to check in on you - keep posting updates. Heading off to my thread for a minute - big day coming up.

Best wishes,
~Shannon

[rbeasl]

Cindy

I found you.... Now I will read and see what your Penny can teach me.. Thanks for helping me out on my thread..

Take Care
Rhondalyn and Honey

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Glad to hear Penny is better. It could be that she needs that higher cortisol to help with her painful spurs, arthritis, etc; that she needs to self medicate.

If that is the case, you may have to find a balance between her Cush symptoms and her spurs. Perhaps going on and off the medication?

Hoping others have been in a similar situation and will stop by.

IMO, I would hold off on the ACTH test for now until you see strong Cush symptoms returning and then discuss with vet.

Hugs,
Addy

P.S. Have a wonderful day with Penny.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Shannon so much for thinking of Penny:)

Rhondalyn - thanks for coming to the thread - have to warn you its alot Penny was so complicated - but in a nut shell - started trilo at 60 mg - numbers went up alittle - vet should of waited or increased trilo a little instead she doubled it and put her into Addisionan and she crashed - off the meds for awhile - spoke to Dr Allen and started her back on 20 mg of trilo and ten 10 mg of tril - then she got really sick the other night - in lots of pain ??? tumor in pit gland getting bigger - pain for all the lumbar isssues - the enlarged liver????? we dont know but right now off trilo - on Rimadyl and starting Adequin shots soon - shes a fighter for sure!!

Addy - wow you answer my questions before I got to ask them - LOL - you are the best!! I was just coming on to say I think the cortisol levels went up since shes been off the trilo since the scare last week so Penny is feeling good - drinking is good - not overwhelming - appetite is increasing and walking is ok so I wanted to know when to do ACTH test and you gave me the infor before I asked:D:D You know me all to well:) So I guess I can hold off for awhile?? Oh and she is shedding enough for me to make doggie coats for sure!!!!!!!:eek: xo to you and Zoe!!!!!! So is it a better week???

[Casey's Mom]

Very very happy to see Penny is doing better!! Some of us have seen massive shedding once their cortisol returns to a more normal level. One of the moderators can probably point you in the direction of a thread that addresses that issue but I know it happened with Casey and many more on this forum.

Love and many hugs,

[Cyn719]

Thanks Ellen - you are right the rise in the cortisol and its Fall so that just adds to it:eek: thats ok I will just keep brushing and brushing as long as she feels better thats all that matters:) How things going with you ???

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy..I am so glad to see that Penny is doing so much better. I was busy shortly after she had the crisis, but I wanted you to know that I thought about you both the whole time, and I could not wait to get back home and see how things were going..so happy she is home and doing as well as she is :)...as far as the shedding? Nika's fur is flying off of her..I too can not keep up, it just doesn't stop coming out:eek:...we are getting a bit use to it, but it still boggles our minds that she can have any left:D...take care..many hugs from Lynda and Nika

[jmac]

Hi Cindy-
I'm so glad to hear Penny is doing better! I hope I'll see Hannah doing better and get a good report at her acupuncture appointment on Thursday too! Keeping you in my thoughts..

Julie & Hannah

[Keiko's Mom]

Hi. Thanks for asking about Keiko....she's doing pretty good. My husband and I are both retired, so we're with her 24/7. She takes S3 soft chews for her joints and walks about 1 mile every night...she still has trouble with her legs stiff, shaky and cramping at times. The 30mg/am and 10mg/pm seems to be doing the job...next test almost 90 days away. I've been keeping an eye on you...wish the very best. You have alot to deal with and it's very confusing...hang in there! I used to see posts from "Altira" (?)....I hope her husky is doing good. This whole forum is over-whelming to me....too many complicated conditions and people using the compounded generic Vetoryl...used to work in pharmacy...not always sold on generics, especially the way I hear them being used by most of the posters.

[Cyn719]

Hi everyone - just got off the phone with vet - I told her :

Penny is eating well ( alittle increased appetite - like wanting treats after treats) but content with reg breakfast and dinner ##### I KNOW SHE IS CONTENT WITH HER MEALS - I JUST FED HER BREAKFAST AND SHE REFUSED IT AND I WAS LIKE OMG HER WE GO AND MY HUSBAND CALLED AND SAID HE FED HER THIS AM FORGOT TO TELL ME ---- SO IF HER APPETITE WAS INCREASED SHE WOULD HAVE GOBBLED IT UP

Drinking is still normal

going to the bathroom is normal

Shedding is ALOT

Walking is ok - when she feels good she goes upstairs to my sons room and jumps on the bed and she has been doing that for the past 4 days (oh she loves Mike at college - she has her own room!!):D

Taking Rimadyl 2xs a day:eek: Dasqaquin 2xs a day and Tramadol - 1 at bed Waiting for the Adequin Shots to arrive

She wanted me to start her on Gabepentan ?spelling - has anyone used this - its for pain and helps small seizures -- she was on it from Tufts when she had her teeth pulled - it seemed to make her walk like she was drunk - but my vet said she should be back on it - then after a week on that wants her back on trilo - no ACTH test - I dont know if that is right shouldnt we test her and shouldnt I keep her off the trilo till I see more symptoms?

The big question -- am I not seeing the symptoms cause of damage caused when the vet overdosed her with the trilo - is ther a sure way to find out if the glands are damaged and how bad?? The vet just said that since her numbers went up from .8 to ?? 3.4 dont have test in from of me then the glands are functioning - of course I need to check this out with everyone - she has been doing a better job since she talked to Dr Peterson but after what happened I have to check everything out twice!! So I could really use some advice right now?? Thanks again to all of you!!!:):):):)

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy,
I don't have any answers or advice for you but I did want you to know that you and Penny are in my thoughts and prayers everyday.
It sure sounds like she is enjoying having her own room:D...it really made me smile when I read that;).
Keep up the wonderful job you are doing with your girl, you are such a good Mom:)...many hugs from Lynda and Nika

[Cyn719]

This is the canned food I feed Penny and I am switching to the dry food - can you give your opinions - much appreciated:)

Senior Medley canned

The wise ones of the dog kingdom remember when dog food was a quarter, bones were free, and drinking from water hoses wasn’t taboo. We created a medley of flavors that come together to make a delicious gourmet chicken entrée that is sure to remind them of yesteryear. The Merrick family says live life to the fullest – these are the golden years!

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Min.) 7.00%
Crude Fat (Min.) 3.00%
Crude Fiber (Max.) 1.00%
Moisture (Max.) 82.00%

Calorie Content
827 kcal/kg - A 13.2 oz. can provides 312 kcal of metabolizable energy, calculated value.

Ingredients: Chicken, Turkey Broth, Turkey, Chicken Broth, Chicken Liver, Barley, Brown Rice, Fresh Carrots, Fresh Red Jacket New Potatoes, Fresh Garden Peas, Fresh Red Delicious Apples, Potato Starch-modified, Olive Oil, Flax Seed Oil (for Omega-3), Carageenan, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Cassia Gum, Sodium Tripoly-phosphate, Natural Caramel Color, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Choline Chloride, Inulin, Lecithin, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Tocopherol, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin A Acetate, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylene-diamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.

Senior Medley is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food nutrient profiles for all life stages.


15lb. Senior Medley dry

The wise ones of the dog kingdom remember when dog food was a quarter, bones were free, and drinking from water hoses wasn’t taboo. For crying out loud we now have bottled water for dogs, day spas and gourmet pet food, what is the world coming to? So we had the crazy idea to create a favorite medley of flavors that is sure to remind them of yesteryear when they once were Homecoming Queen. Who says growing older means you have to eat bland food, consume massive amounts of fiber, play canasta and do water aerobics? The Merrick family says live life to the fullest, ditch the dentures and use what your parents gave you, these are the golden years!

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (Not Less Than) 24.0%
Crude Fat (Not Less Than) 10.0%
Crude Fiber (Not More Than) 4.0%
Moisture (Not More Than) 10.0%
Docosahexaenoic Acid-DHA* (Not Less Than) 400mg/Kg
Vitamin E (Not More Than) 50mg/Kg

Calorie Content:
3343 kcal/kg (calculated) – One pound provides 1517 kcal of metabolizable energy (calculated). One cup (100 grams) provides 334 calories (Caloric content calculated using Modified Atwater Method)

Ingredients:
Chicken, Chicken Meal, Ground Rice, Oat Meal, Pearled Barley, Turkey Meal,Chicken Fat(Preserved with mixed tocopherols), Ground Whole Barley,Natural Flavor, Rice Bran,Yeast culture, Dried Egg Product, Hydrolyzed Yeast,
Salmon Oil (a natural source of DHA - Docosahexaenoic Acid)*, Calcium Carbonate, Dried Potato, Dried Carrot,Salt, Potassium Chloride, Dried Apple, Dried Peas, Dicalcium Phosphate, Alfalfa Nutrient Concentrate, Choline Chloride,Dried Blueberry, Dried Cranberry, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Inulin (from Chicory Root),Egg Shell Meal,Ground Fennel , Dried Parsley , Dried Marigold, Rosemary Extract,Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus casei,Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex,Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3,Niacin, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride,Cobalt Proteinate, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite, Colbalt Carbonate

Senior Medley is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Dog Food nutrient profiles for all life stages.

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

I think quite a few members feed their pups Merrick food. I believe it's a lot better quality than most on the market. My dogs get kibble only as a treat, not as a their primary food. My dogs are older with limited teeth and one with TMJ so kibble is given in small amounts and even then, I buy the smallest bits I can find. If not for the dental challenge, I think I'd probably mix wet or canned with kibble. I'd also mix up the canned food meat to give them a variety. I can't imagine what it would be like to have to eat the same dry kibble day after day after day.

I'm old enough to remember that kibble didn't exist until after I was born. In case you haven't figured it out, that was a very, very long time ago and I'm as old as dirt. :D Kibble was developed for the convenience of man, not because it was optimum for a dog. Our dogs ate what we ate for the most part and I can't help but wonder why they seemed to be healthier and live longer than any dog I've had as an adult. :confused: That's pretty amazing considering that my parents were seriously crappy pet owners.

In order to determine the real protein, fat and fiber percentage in dogfood, you need to calculate things on a dry matter basis. In order to do that, you need to know that the dry matter is equal to 100% minus the moisture content. In the case of Merrick Senior Medley kibble, the dry matter would be 100% - 10% = 90%. Divide the crude %'s by 90 and then multiply by 100. The results are the true meaningful percentages. See the math below for both the canned and dry Senior Medley food:

Kibble:
Protein: (24/90) x 100 = 27%
Fat: (10/90) x 100 = 11%
Fiber: (4/90) x 100 = 4%

Canned:
Protein: (7/18) x 100 = 39%
Fat: (3/18) x 100 = 17%
Fiber: (1/18) x 100 = 6%

I hope this helps.

[Cyn719]

Glynda thank you for the info - so with those calculation is it good numbers for a cush dog? I have to think about the kibble to - she is down 7 teeth! But I do wet it - also did you look at my other post about penny and the trilo and test? When you have a moment if you can give your advice - thanks:)

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

I don't know of any dogs that have taken Gabapentin but I have taken it myself for for a facial pain that I suffer from. It is an epilepsy treatment but it is also used for acute nerve pain. It can make you very drowsy and even slur your words in a high dose but I would thing it would be ok for Penny to take in a low dose. It is very successful for me when I need it. Glad to hear that Penny is feeling alot better.

Linda

[Cyn719]

Thanks Linda - my husbands aunt just told me she takes it also - maybe I will try to pill at night and see how she does - in the past I think she was taking 2 thru the day - she was just so wobblie and not alet - I am waiting till hubby is home at nite - I am not ready for any more surprises when I am alone - last week did me in:eek::) Have to give it a try -

[addy]

Cindy,

If you are switching from canned to kibble, Penny will most likely drink moe water as they all do with kibble. Kibble is highly processed food and the food you listed has the third, fourth and fifth ingriedent as not meat.

May I ask why you want to switch to kibble?

Hugs,
addy

[Cyn719]

Addy dont know if I worded it wrong but penny is on kibble - she always has been - we add a tablespoon or so of canned to the kibble - I want to continue to do the same - my canned is merrick my kibble is Purina one weight management - i was just going to switch the kibble to merrick kibble - Glynda did the formula for me - im not sure if the results were good or not???? So i should not feed kibble??? and the merrick is not good?? Sorry for all the questions I just want to get the food thing right

[Cyn719]

OMG what cortisol and the fall weather can do!!!! Penny is going crazy tonight - running jumping barking at me giving me her paw - I even noticed she even lost weight!!! She looks good - but then I say ugggggg its the Cushings!!! Why cant there be a happy medium!!!! One day I am losing her today shes a crazy dog!!! Well i just have to embrace the crazy dog for now and take it minute by minute - can any of you add to the questions about the gabapentin - the ACTH test - and the food? More input needed??? Thanks as always!!!:) Me and the crazy dog!:D

I asked about the cPL test but the vet is suppose to be calling me back

[ShannonJ92]

Sorry I'm unable to help with the more technical questions but checking in to see how you and Penny were doing. They sure do keep us at high alert but if it's in their best interest we will continue to strive for their health and happiness. Continued best wishes to you!

~Shannon

[addy]

Sorry Cindy, I misunderstood. I thought you were planning to change from wet food to dry ( canned to kibble) and wondered why. If Penny is already on kibble that is fine.

What we feed our dogs is pretty much an individual choice and the most important part is that the dogs like the food and will eat it:D and that it is a good food for them.

I'm glad Penny is feeling better and is a frisky girl. Does my heart good.

Love,
addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

Can you remind me as to why Penny is in pain severe enough to require Rimadyl, Dasquin, Adequan and now Gabapentin? That's a lot of stuff so I'm curious. Is the Rimadyl not alleviating her pain?

I agree with Addy that what we choose to feed our dogs is a personal choice. My best advice to anyone would be to do your own homework so you can make an educated decision based on ingredients, your dog's health status and your budget. If you want my personal opinion, I think Merrick is far superior to Purina One Healthy Weight Management Formula. If you pick up the bag and read the ingredients, you'll see that Purina One kibble is loaded with low quality grains, a low quality fat and yuck, by-products. Poultry by-product is basically what humans consider inedible waste, such as skin, necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, intestines and even a certain amount of feathers. I believe any dog food made by Purina is going to be low in quality but much more affordable than Merrick or any other good quality petfoods that contain human grade ingredients.

[Cyn719]

Glynda -- I love hearing from you - you are always full of information and always ask questions!! Love that!!!!! OK on the food you calculated it for me the day - I looked at the calculations for the Merrick - so I dont know if those were good results or not???? I want to take her off the Purina kibble and put her on the merrick if the calculations and ingredients are good and if not maybe Royal Canine? still searching -- as far as the paing --Penny was on the Rimadyl - Dasaquin and trilo but then we stopped the Rimadyl for 3 days to give her a break and that is when she was in so much paing she ended up in the hospital and we though we had to have her PTS she was so bad - so since she has the pit tumor - size unknown -- enlarged liver - lumbar spurs - arthritis - calcifications -stynosis ?spelling the orthopedic said to get her back on Rimadyl - continue Dasaquin - try Adequin shots (she is off trilo for now) and give her a tramadol at bedtime - he doesnt want her on the gabepentin my vet does -- she thinks it will help with the pain and if penny is having little seizures it would help - I didnt like how she acted the last time she was on it so I didnt start it - the vet told me this am she thought I started it already and she was pretty mad I didnt - so what would you do? I hate all these meds but after that episode I feel she needs it - especially the Rimadyl - right now she can walk pretty good - looks good - eats good - is not smashing her body up against a hard spot to get comfy - drinking is not increased - NOW the big question is - is her adrenal glands damaged from when vet overdosed her ?? how do I know? Sorry for all the questions - I feel like I knew some guidance today:o Thanks for your help:)

[Cyn719]

Thanks Addy - this food thing can be so confusing and I just want whats good for her - thanks for always being there for me:):):):):):)

[addy]

That's okay, I have ADD today, I think. Did you go look at the foods rated on Dogaware? I know I always push that site but it has so much good info on it. Whole Dog Journal rates food every year too. I could see if I have my January issue when they rated all the kibble.

I'm glad you add some canned food to the kibble. I agree with Glynda about the Purina verses Merrick. Food can be confusing and what works for one dog may not work for the next one.

Dogaware will tell you how to identify a good dog food, which ingredients to look for, what to avoid, etc.

You are being double teamed today by me and Glynda;) but I am glad, too, Glynda stopped by to look at all those meds of Penny's.

Your vet should not get mad that you did not follow her instructions. You have every right to wait if you are not comfortable administering a drug and to want to discuss your concerns.

If it makes you feel any better, my temporary IMS still has not answered my email. I make them nervous cause I am too detailed:p

love ya,
addy

[lulusmom]

Hi again,

If only everybody in the world wanted to hear from me. :D If Penny were mine and she was not in pain, I would not want to give her Gabapentin for no good reason. I seem to remember that she was feeling so good that she was jumping on the bed. A dog in tremendous back pain would not be jumping on the bed. However, you know your girl best and I have a feeling that if you were seriously concerned with Penny's level of pain right now, you wouldn't be asking for advice on Gabapentin....you would be giving it to her, right? However, if you truly believe Penny needs additional pain meds due to ortho problems and need some reassurance, call your orthopedic specialist and talk to him/her about Gabapentin.

Other than measuring the adrenal gland's ability to produce cortisol via an acth stimulation test, there really is no way to determine if the adrenal glands have been completely necrosed without opening the dog up. I can tell you that if Penny's adrenal glands were completely fried, she would now be an addison's dog requiring lifetime medication. Trilostane would certainly not be the subject of discussion. However, we have had members whose dogs have gone into remission after a crisis, some for a few months and some much longer. I definitely agree with your vet that Penny's adrenal glands are producing cortisol but whether I would personally restart treatment now is highly unlikely. It's only been a few days since your vet said that because of the severe back pain Penny has, there is a quality of life issue and that you would need to make a decision in four or five days. If my dog was truly in that much pain from bone spurs and arthritis, I'm honestly not sure I'd restart the Trilostane.

[Cyn719]

That is what hubby and I decided not trilo for now until she shows the need for it - increased drinking - eating - peeing etc -- Ortho did say he did not suggest the gabapentin so gabapentin is not going to be used for now --- she is jumping on bed and walking better -- because of the increased cortisol and putting her back in the Rimadyl -- so it is showing me she has better life quality being on the Rimadyl - having higher levels of cortisol - and maybe adding the Adequin shots may make it even better - if I left her off all meds especially the Rimadyl she would not be able to live in that pain - that we saw -- but the Rimadyl is good for her kidneys or liver correct? but I guess at this point I have to decide - quality of life or sever pain? ugggggg so I guess its the meds cause she will die if I dont do anything - also the tramadol at night - by nightime she is uncomfortale and it helps her relax ----------- so as far as the food are those calculations good or am I looking for lower numbers?? Im going on and on sorry:o Thanks - ps Deb told me to have a cPL test done also since she saw the number I posted

[lulusmom]

Cindy, there is a wealth of information on the internet for just about every pill we put in our dogs' mouths. I discovered that the best way to learn why a drug is prescribed, how it works and what side effects to watch for is to do your own research. I heartily recommend that everybody know what they are putting in their dog's mouth, or on their skin for that matter. Never assume that your vet is intimately familiar with a drug s/he is prescribing nor that they will take the time to go down the list of adverse reactions with you.

Rimadyl gives me the creeps because despite what your vet told you, dogs with uncontrolled cushing's are at greater risk of stomach ulcerations/perforations if treating with Rimadyl or any other NSAID. To answer your question, Rimadyl should be given with great caution to any dog with liver or kidney problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carprofen
http://www.1800petmeds.com/Rimadyl-prod10261.html
http://www.vetinfo.com/rimadyl-side-effects-in-dogs.html

Regarding diet, a cushdog, especially an untreated cushdog, should be on a low fat, good quality, higher protein diet. The Merrick Kibble looks good to me but I would add some low fat canned food or try a little of the Deli Fresh chub I mentioned earlier.

[addy]

Me Asking question for Glynda,

Will the Pepcid that Penny already takes help guard against the effects of the Rimadyl?When I read about it for Zoe it did say it was also given to humans who need to take NSAIDs. It heps protect the stomach.

Is it possible if Penny has to have Rimadyl that the Pepcid may help her counter the side effects? Seems like Cindy is between a rock and a hard place. Perhaps the higher cortisol would mean she may need less Rimadyl or may take it every other day?

Just throwing stuff out there.

Addy

[lulusmom]

@Addy. Unfortunately, Pepcid can't prevent ulcers or intestinal perforations. It is effective in helping to sooth ulcers though. I do agree that as the cortisol, a steroidal anti-inflammatory, rises Rimadyl can probably be cut way back or discontinued.

[Cyn719]

Addy - Glynda -- you guys are the best!!!!!!! You are so full of information - I love it!!!!! I learn things from you every minute!!! Ok the Merrick Kibble is good and you said to add a low fat canned food so I take it that the sr kibble canned from merrick isnt a good one??? And you also said to add Deli Fresh Chub???? what is that??? I agree about the Rimadyl - I hate it to but I like Addy said I feel like I have not other choice -BUT her levels must be rising cause she is off trilo BUT the drinking is not increased - the eating is not increased - so my concern is the glands partially damaged?? Wouldnt I see more cush signs after being off it a week plus?? Her energy might be a sign of the cortisol rising and I was assuming (never assume:p) that the Rimadyl was what was making her feel good - so the Rimadyl is helping but the cortisol is helping too!!! See I do pay attention!!:D So I am going to finish out this week with the Rimadyl and next week I will start cutting back slowing on it and play with the dose and see how she does and by then the shots should be in -- Adequan is used by alot of members on this forum and they say they have good luck so I am trying it - wow I learned alot today -- so are you fine with the Dasaquin and the tramadol at night? Also she does take the Pecid ac in the morning also -- Well I picked your brains enough for one night!!!! Thank you - Love and Hugs to you!!!! PS I am still waiting for the vet to say she will do a cPL test!! Like really - how long to call back!!!

[lulusmom]

Here is a link to Deli Fresh dog food by Fresh Pet. You can find it on Amazon, Petco and Petsmart. I would be most pet supply stores carry it too. It's in the refrigerated section.

http://www.amazon.com/Gently-Cooked-Chicken-Vegetable-3-5-Pound/dp/B000VRBNO4

[Cyn719]

Deli fresh looks like something she would like - I looked at the link - so does it come in just that flavor - so I would put that in her Kibble in place of the canned food right?

[lulusmom]

Yes, just mix the Deli Fresh with the kibble. I buy the chicken but it looks like they have turkey as well. All four of my furbutts and my little blind chi rescue loves it. My friend, Brenda's, three dogs inhale it too. I think Penny will definitely like it.

http://freshpet.com/brand/deli-fresh/

[Cyn719]

Glynda -- I am going out tomorrow to buy her the chicken one -- I think she will like it for sure!!!! Thanks - so I will use that for a week and then I will slowly start to change her Kibble to the Merrick Kibble unless you have another suggestion - someone mentioned Royal canine??

[addy]

Cindy, if you are adding the Deli Fresh to the kibble IMO I would stick with the Merrick dry and not try the Royal Canine.

Hope Penny is having a good day.

Hugs,
addy

[Cyn719]

hope i am doing this right finally uploading Pennys picture and made an album!! :D

[Cyn719]

Can anyone tell me if I can give Penny something if she seems like she feels sick to her stomach?? Here we go again - She is doing that thing again with her mouth - tounge in and out and she just spit up alttle - seemed just like water - she is tired - and while she is laying there she keeps shifting her back end - like shes not comfy - like last week but not as severe - now I am confused cause shes been doing so good - I didt change anything ??

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

I know if I give Zoe her Pepcid 20 minutes before her meal she will later get sick to her tummy and do the licking thing. If I wait a full 30 minutes or more, it does not bother her. For some reason something as little as 10 minutes makes a difference for her.

Did you change the timing of any of her meds?

Hugs,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

How is Penny this morning? I hope she rested well and is eating well.

I just gotta tell you what a gorgeous girl our Penny is! I looked at the pics and was just blown away - she is soooo pretty! That face....I wanna just hold it and cover it with kisses.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Addy your precious Zoe has a sensitive belly too - Mike just said Zoe can go back to school with him - she looks like a little stuffed animal - he can put her right on his bed and no one would notice!!!:) Cant do that with Penny - alittle to big! lol Yes Penny was sick after breakfast yesterday morning and sick after breakfast this morning -- ok yesterday I gave her the reg kibble she eats - alittle wet food - rimadyl and I skipped the Dasaquin -- and put the pepcid right in her food - Ive been doing it like that forever - now I see you do it earlier so now I will have to try that cause why is she now getting sick - its not that shes is vomiting she just does the licking this and looks sick??? Is it her stomach or is the pain back? I am trying so hard to figure this out but I will try the Pepcid early - also I didnt start the Deli Fresh cause I didnt want to change anything till I get this under control - Addy as always thanks for the info xoxo

[Cyn719]

Leslie - look at my previous post - penny is still not feeling well --- thank you for looking at her pics - shes my cutie --- we were suppose to name her Bella - but we got her when my son was 7 and he didnt like Bella - so he named her after the dog at the fire station Penny!! Maybe it was good we didnt name her Bella - everyone thinks shes a boy when they see her!! Awwww how could they with that face - I need to post a new pic - I think those were from 2 yrs ago when she had cushings but didnt start the meds yet. Leslie if you have any input to my previous post I would appreciate it - shes not feeling good the past two days:(

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

The licking could be from pain or from nausea, which could be caused by pain or from some other source. Giving the Pepcid about 30 before the meals may help with this. If the Pepcid doesn't seem to be helping, you can try Tagamet, the generic is Cimetidine. Pepsid quit helping Squirt so now I use the Tagamet when she needs something to settle her tummy.

If she seems to start having as much pain as she was earlier, I would get her to the vet asap. There they can give her something a bit stronger. ;)

Remind me what feed she is eating....it is possible the manufacturer changed the formula and that is causing her upset. The only way to know if this has happened is to call the company and ask. They are not required to make the public aware of changes in formulas or ingredients - they leave it up to us to find out.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Yup something is wrong - shes not right - not as bad as last week but dont want it to get to that - yup you are right she has been on pepcid awhile so maybe have to up to Tagamet for sure - ok she eats Purina one weight management - with Merrick canned food - I was going to switch her to the Merrick Kibble and use the Deli Fresh in place of the canned food but dont want to make a change just yet since I dont know what is wrong with her -

I just got her up she was sleeping in the basement - when mikes home she always want to be down there with him watching tv - well her front right leg is stiff - her front right paw is not rounded anymore - its more like a hand - flat - so I believe vet said thats arthritis - and her back end is very stiff - so the Rimadyl - dasaquin - Tramadol was working now stopped?? Oh and her own cortisol levels must of been helping since she is not on trilo - so shes been off trilo now a couple of weeks and the cortisol went up but by now I would think it would be really high and it doesnt seem to be - no increased drinking - or eating - now back to is her gland damaged from the Addisionans ??? I am blank right now - is there a way to tell if there is damage?? sorry if I asked before - my mind is all over the place again:o

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I don't thing Addison's is the problem. And if I were you, I would forget about the Cushing's right now, too, and concentrate on keeping her pain levels as low as possible. If her cortisol is a bit high, it will help with the pain.

I would also get her off the Purina as fast as I could. You do this by slowly adding in the new kibble to the Purina each meal until she is eating only the new kibble. Merritt's is a good feed. I've recently switched mine to Avoderm because it has lower fat and proteins than the Royal Canin they were on....Brick and Trink have gotten a bit ROUND! LOL Lower fat and proteins means more carbs but this feed has decent carb sources.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Cushings is on the back burner for now -- not trilo -- vet was so mad at me last week - she said I told you to start the gabapentin and you didnt - I wanted to get her back on the trilo - so start the gab so we can put her on trilo next week --- what why does she want her on it???? no way - she cant go back on it now - and no I dont like how the gab made her feel that last time - it was like she was drunk!! she really frustrated me -- I left the message about doing the cPL test which Debbie mentioned and she never called me back!! so I have to call tues - any othr test i should do?? I think I am going to have a urine test also - she seems to be tending to that area ALOT!

The food - so you agree on Merrick as does Glynda--- I will start to switch tomorrow - she seems upset after breakfast but yes is in pain -- Thanks again -- it does get confusing and frustrating - when the vet is going against me:mad:

[labblab]

Hi Cindy,

I'm hoping that Leslie won't mind me voicing a different opinion, but if it were me -- I would not be switching Penny's food in the midst of so many other "question marks." I would leave the food alone, as a constant, right now. I doubt that it is the food that is making her feel ill, and leaving the food "as is" means one less variable that you are dealing with. Also, if Penny is feeling nauseous for other reasons, I would worry that that she may "turn up her nose" to food that you are hoping to ultimately make a transfer to. So if were me, I'd just stick with the status quo, foodwise, for the time being.

Marianne

[k9diabetes]

I agree with Marianne that it would be helpful to limit variables as much as possible right now. If anything, I would think she might need bland diet to help settle her stomach.

One thing I've always done when there is vomiting or diarrhea is to withhold food for 24 hours to get the whole system time to rest. And then follow that with a bland diet.

We have used equal parts boiled white meat chicken, lowfat cottage cheese, and white rice. I've also seen recommendations for potatos. Meat baby food (free of garlic or onions) can also be helpful and is pretty popular with most dogs - our diabetic dog Chris was one of the few I've seen who didn't like baby food but the dog we have now loves it.

I don't know about Penny but a lot of dogs have trouble with diet changes and some diets just won't work. So at the very least I would stick with something that has worked for Penny in the past.

I would also have a good vet - maybe not the one who has been giving you such a hard time about Trilostane... - check her out thoroughly ASAP and check her cortisol level, not for whether it is high but for whether it is low. Along with a blood panel of course. Pancreatitis is another thing that should be considered and it is very dangerous if it goes too far.

I absolutely would not start her on Trilo, perhaps not ever. I think she's going to need the benefit of some extra cortisol to help with her back pain. If her body could do the treating of her back pain more, she could be taking less meds orally, which certainly could be doing a number on her stomach. The last thing I would want to do is add a med that is not absolutely necessary.

I'm worried about her.

I apologize for possibly being a dufus because I haven't been able to go through your whole thread. But in the quick scan I did tonight, it seems that the vet pushing Trilostane is a problem and is NOT seeing the big picture.

Do you have options to find a better vet?

I can tell you from personal experience that it makes a WORLD of difference finding the right doctor. One you can trust, one who listens to you, one who has the big picture in mind so sees more than the Cushing's - sees Cushing's plus a back problem that is currently perhaps the largest threat to her continued presence on the planet unless her pain can be controlled.

We actually had to switch neurologists in the midst of our dog Jack's back problem. There was some personal problem the first one was having that was undermining his treatment of our dog. Things got a lot better when we found a new neurologist who was thoroughly with us.

To me, admittedly from an incomplete read, the current illness would be priority number one, followed by the back pain, and lastly Cushing's disease.

But I would want to know if her cortisol is still low - I do think a cortisol test is important at this point.

Because if her cortisol remains low, that could be related to her current feeling poorly and be making her back pain far worse. So I think low cortisol, not high, is an important part of the big picture.

Diagnostics can help you stop worrying about some things and let you worry about the right ones - and treat the right things.

Natalie

[Cyn719]

Natalie and Marianne

I did not read your email until after I fed her but she only got a very very small amout of the new food - yes I am going to have her cPL and here ACTH test done the end of this week - I dont think shes producing enough of her own cortisol - and she never every got sick on the Rimadyl before and shes been on it awhile but now she is -- I only give one pepcid in the am could another be used in the pm? or I could switch to tagamet like Addy said - she eats really good - no vomiting no lose stools - just lays there doing the mouth and tounge thing - is seems like she is in pain and has a funny stomach but not sick to stomach uless the pain is causing the sick stomach?? Maybe the mouth thing isnt even from her stomach at all just the pain?? soooo confussed :confused::confused: Ok so go for the test - stay on the same meds - waiting to see if we can increase the pepcid and like Addy said it sould be given 20 - 30 mins before meals - I was giving it with her meal - ok adviced needed and much appreciated!!

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

I'm sorry that Penny is having issues. I didn't read the posts, as I can't right now, but my thoughts and prayers are with you and Penny.

[k9diabetes]

Extra cortisol would also help contain symptoms caused by a growing pituitary tumor if that's what's going on - brain tumors tend to cause a lot of inflammation. Overall, I think it's critically important that she have at least normal cortisol and possilby some extra.

Can you have her seen sooner?

I'm really worried about her Cindy. I think she should be seen by a good vet as soon as possible. I'd rather she got in to the vet than trying to add still more Pepcid or change the stomach protecting med. It feels more critical than that to me.

Natalie

[Cyn719]

Terry - how is Corky doing on the trilo - I check and there were no recent post - hope all is well?? Yeah Penny had a bad time a few weeks ago - thought we were going to lose her - lots of pain - back on meds no trilo and did good for two weeks now she is so so again - bloodwork the end of week so we will see - ttys:)

[Cyn719]

Natalie - I am watching her closely -- She is eating no prob - not getting sick - drinking normal - she just had 2 good weeks - I didnt change nothing - but shes back to groaning - shifting her body - not sleeping thru the night - so obviously she not comfy - its not as bad as when I took her in two weeks ago but afraid it may get that way - yes I guess I should check her cortisol level ( the only reason I would want to do it cause on one hand I am scared the glands are damaged and she is not producing enough cortisol and if so I dont want her to crash again ) Now I feel that if they were working she wouldnt be like this - it has to be pain cause she still wants to eat so her stomach cant be that sick -- I cannot get her in till thurs unless its an emergency and she gets worse - I have to go for tests Wed so I will be preping tues ugggggg!!!!! She is acting like shes on trilo - tired and walking slow - ACTH test will reveal is shes producing cortisol so I will feel relief cause I keep thinking the glands are shot!! Can you tell I am nervous I am going on and on:eek::o:confused: Sorry

[Cyn719]

Hi I have a question some of you have said that your dogs pace and pace and dig and are up and down - well penny is doing that since early tonight and just getting worse - what is that? Its kind of like 2 weeks ago when she ended up in the hospital - she is panting so heavy - like she did before - she is trying to drink but just licks but not the water - like she did before - her face just looks like she is in pain - like before - she doesnt know what to do with herself - my confusion is when we started her back on the Rimadyl she got better so much better and now its like she isnt on it -- did the Rimadyl kick in to help whatever it was helping now the pain over took that dose?? My husband think its the tumor in her pit gland and the Rimadyl took the edge off ???? We gave her 1 1/2 tramadol and its doing nothing - she cant get comfy and has that strange look like before - what is to do now?? I hit a brick wall for sure

[Cyn719]

ok I said it is kind of like two weeks ago - its the same as two weeks ago - she is trying all different spots in the house - laying against the wall - panting - so if I take her to the vet then what - the vet could not do anything last time - just a lumbar xray to say she has lots of issues back there - to say her liver is enlarged and the orthopedic said it is large but he didnt think it was that large?? so what I dont know is about the pit tumor?? if her cortisol levels were low would she be like this and I dont think its that cause 2 weeks ago she was the same way and the past 2 weeks shes been perky and fine - I dont know what can even be done???

[k9diabetes]

Cindy,

I'm no expert at all on Cushing's so I may be completely off base - but my gut feeling from what you've said is that this is serious and I really think she needs to see the vet to assess what's happening with her.

Addison's (lack of cortisol) can be fatal.

Do you still have some prednisone?

Is she still taking it or did you stop it?

Because I'm thinking that whether it's a pituitary tumor gone macro or a low cortisol condition, either one could potentially be helped by prednisone.

So if she's not on it, it seems to me that it might be worth giving her some and seeing if she improves.

I really think you need some input from folks with more Cushing's experience than me...

I have been associated with a Cushing's dog whose tumor enlarged and it caused a lot of odd behavior - anxiety, restlessness, circling.

Just going on the face of what you've said, she sounds miserable and in case it's something that can be fixed if it doesn't go on too long, personally I'd take her to the vet tomorrow. Could she be dropped off?

All you experts out there... maybe I'm way off base. Please say so if you think I'm blowing this out of proportion.

Natalie

[Cyn719]

Natalie I will contact vet tomorrow morning I have predisone I feel like I should give her one now - one really cant hurt?? she looks like she is in so much discomfort!! shes laying there eyes lids half open and just dazed (she does have 1 1/2 tramadol in her) but shes still up - if it is the tumor the pred will relieve it alittle for now?

[Cyn719]

She has been off Pred since she crashed in June -

[Cyn719]

This is EXACTLY what happended two weeks ago - I am feeling more that it is a marco - my husband keeps saying being off the Rimadyl the first time this happened cause more pain and pressure so when we gave her the Rimadyl the tumor responsed to it - now that its been in her system its not responding any more - and back to the beginning again? Does this sound right???? I gave her 5mg of pred - dont even know if that would do anything but I could not sit her and watch this - wish I knew if I could of given more - the ER wont tell me

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

So sorry Penny is having these issues again. I can't offer any advice as to what it could be but I do think she should see a vet today. I don't think she would be able to have an ACTH today to see where her levels are as the pred would affect the results. Hope she slept after your last post last night. Will be thinking of you all.

Linda

[StarDeb55]

Cindy, I'm in total agreement with Natalie. There is something seriously wrong with Penny for these type of issues to keep repeating. Did the pred help her? She needs to go to the vet today. She can have an ACTH done, but the vet will have to take into account that she had has pred within the past 25 hours, so any results would be lower than what is shown. Did you ever get the cPL test done? This test is now, also, a priority. Untreated pancreatitis can be fatal. Pancreatitis can cause severe pain including what appears to be back pain. I am very concerned about Penny. I, also, agree with Nat that you need to seek another vet. I know it's hard to change vets in mid stream, but Penny's life may depend on it.

Debbie

[mytil]

Hi,

I am sorry there is so much going on with Penny and I certainly do not want to confuse things more here..... but in my opinion with all the meds you are giving and your vets is suggesting you give, it could be that her gastro system cannot tolerate it all. Break down each of the meds she is taken and look up the side effects.....(see below for example)


Dasuquin combines a proprietary combination of glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulphate, decaffeinated tea and ASU (avocado/soybean unsaponifiable).

Some dogs have reactions to tea and avocados




Side Effects
Dasuquin is well tolerated by dogs. There are no known drug interactions and few, if any, side effects to note. Although rare, some dogs have shown intolerance to the avocado in Dasuquin and may experience mild stomach upset. The ASU combination has been studied extensively by the French government with no significant contraindications found.


I know Rimadyl can cause stomach upsets too.

Regarding the Gabapentin - this one can cause depression as well as disorientation.

So are you saying your vet wants Penny on: Trilostane, Rimadyl, Dasuquin and Gabapentin?

I would certainly question this.
Keep us posted
Terry

[addy]

Cindy, sending love and prayers to you and Penny. I don't want to confuse you or add to the mix. I do think you need a new vet at this point but I don't want to stress you out about it.

Hugs and love,
addy

[Cyn719]

Linda - Debbie - Terry - Natalie - Addy

Penny is going tomorrow for tests ACTH cPL Urine and ??? anything else you can add - I am seeing another vet there tomorrow if possible - Penny is on and has been on Dasaquin - tramadol - Rimadyl -pepcid for awhile now

Dasaquin - twice a day
rimadyl - twice a day
tramadol bedtime
pepcid breakfast
gabapentin - she wanted me to start it back but I did not -penny took it for her teeth - tufts gaves it to us and she walked drunk when she took it

She walked last night like she was stiff - husband says back
I thought her tumor cause of the pacing and laying down and getting up every few minutesand the digging but I heard thats a sign of of dog in pain from wherever the pain is - then I hear thats a sign of a marco - so yes confused again

Natalie - thank you for last night - gave the 5 mg of pred after the tramadol didnt seem to work and YES it seemed to help she rested better

[labblab]

Cindy, I'm so sorry that Penny is feeling so poorly again. I decided to take the time this morning to go back and read your entire thread, and these are some thoughts after having done so.

I had forgotten (but was reminded :o) that many of Penny's current problems actually date back quite a long time, back to when you first found us in January. The groaning, panting, reluctance to stand up, head tremoring, lethargy, isolating herself in the basement -- these have all been present to some degree throughout time, seemingly regardless of the status of her trilostane and cortisol level. So presumably, something else is responsible for these problems. We know she has major orthopedic issues. But is there even something else going on?

It is true that her cortisol level did dip too low earlier in the spring. But it rebounded to 9.6 in mid-July after the trilo was temporarily withheld. Then dropped to 2.8 in August after the trilo was restarted at a lower dose. And then rose again to 3.2 as of 9-8 after the dose was lowered even further. Now she is "off" trilo again. I won't tell you not to bother with another ACTH, but I seriously doubt that she is Addisonian since it has never been too low again since the "crash" in June. If you decide to test, I do think it would be better to test her after the prednisone is out of her system, so that you will have a direct comparison to the earlier results.

I did see that you took Penny to the specialty clinic at Ocean State on 9-29. This was after the ER visit.


We took Penny to Ocean State today - that is where she had both knees operated on - he gave her a full exam of her knees back and hock - hock yes is weak - knees are pretty good - not great but ok - her problem is her back - loaded with arthritis - stenosis - spurs - all that stuff that is making her lumbar very painful - using tramadol at night - Rimadyl - Dasaquin - going to add in the shots and they spoke about adding Gabepentin (spelling?) Has anyone used this - I know no one is fond of the Rimadyl but if we take her off of it like we did for the three days she is going to have another episode like she did on Monday and I cannot put her thru that - I feel like I do not have a choice - her bloodwork is being faxed to be tonight - he said yes her liver is large - pushing alittle into diaphram but he doesnt think enough to cause her to pant like this - and like he said we dont know if the pit tumor is large enough to cause the pain and pressure -- he said maybe all the mouth stuff was her feeling sick to her stomach from all the pain she was in - maybe the mouth stuff was small seizures - but some of you said the mouth thing didnt seem like symptoms of a macro - so we are going to guess that it was sever pain and sick stomach - right now she is still eating - drinking - peeing - pooping - getting around - very difficult to get up - especially after laying for a long period - he mentioned could this be any effect from the overdose of trilo - I told him Dr Allen originaly said he didnt think she was effect - we would of known by now - but I dont think I ever asked what symptoms I would see - so please if anyone has anything to add - any input - any suggestions - ypu know I would love to hear from you!! - xoxoxoxoxox Thank you :):):)

Was this the orthopedist that Penny saw, or was this an internal medicine specialist? It looks like he was actually the vet who first suggested adding in the Gabapentin. And it definitely sounds as though Penny certainly has enough orthopedic problems to account for a lot of pain. In re-reading your thread, I saw that both Dr. Peterson and Dr. Allen also agreed with giving Penny Rimadyl, which I had not noticed previously. So in her case, even though she is a Cushpup, it sounds as though all the specialists are in agreement that pain control is a top priority for Penny. And that may turn out to be the ultimate quality of life issue for her -- whether or not her pain can be comfortably managed.

But is there even something else going on? Having lost my own Cushpup to symptoms consistent with a pituitary macrotumor, I can tell you that some of Penny's behaviors sound very similar to my dog's. But the only way to diagnose this for sure would be a head CT or MRI, both of which are very expensive tests. And the treatment is also very, very expensive and a major undertaking. Given Penny's age and potentially disabling orthopedic problems, diagnostics for a macrotumor may not be a reasonable option, especially if you wouldn't choose to treat her for it, regardless.

But aside from testing for a macrotumor, what else could you do? I agree with Deb re: the cPLI blood test to check for pancreatitis. That is easy to do. And if Penny does have pancreatitis, then changing her food becomes an immediate priority (regardless of what I said earlier!). I see now that Dr. Peterson recommended a change to low-fat food back during the summer due to Penny's high triglyceride level. And low-fat food is a necessity if a dog is vulnerable to pancreatitis.

Also, has Penny ever had an abdominal ultrasound? With question marks about her liver, pancreas, continual panting regardless of cortisol level, etc., an ultrasound might give you some answers. Have the vets at Ocean State ever mentioned an ultrasound? I know it is a rellatively expensive test, but recurrent visits to the regular vet and the ER all have to be mounting up, too.

Since you do not have total confidence in your regular vet and you are really on the verge of making end-of-life decisions about Penny, requesting a hands-on consult, ASAP, with an internal medicine specialist at Ocean State may give you some peace of mind, no matter what the outcome. Cindy, this has to be so hard for you, watching Penny suffer. It has been months now that you have been worried about her. I hope you can quickly find some answers that will ease your decisions on Penny's behalf.

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Does anyone know if i need to hold off on rimadyl if i gave pred last night

[rbeasl]

Cindy,

I am so very sorry that your beautiful little girl Penny is going through so much.. I know it hurts you to see her in so much pain. You have received some really good advice and knowledge here and I just want you to know that I am thinking about you and Penny and Praying that God helps you find a good vet that can get her to feeling better and relieve some pain....

Hang In There
Rhondalyn and Honey

[Cyn719]

Thanks Rhondalyn -

its so frustrating - I am preping today for my test tomorrow so I cannot leave the house - my vet is a 25 min ride and I will never make it - test tomrrow so my husband can get her there after he takes me -- my vet is in surgery so still waiting for a call back or from another vet and my orthopedic still isnt in - hate waiting!! Thanks for your thoughts - it means so much!! xo

[Cyn719]

Marianne -

Sorry I am jumping back and forth - I am preping for colonoscopy and endoscopy today - test tomorrow so its a confusing day so I cant leave to take Penny uggg always bad timing!! Tomorrow is test but my husband can take her after he takes me - The orthopedic did not suggest the gabapentin my vet did I told him about it and he said to hold off on it - she has ultrasounds in the past - both said he glands looked good may one might of been slightly larger than the other - I will as her today what was said of the liver and pan at the time -

The painter just came she would normally get up and run to the edge of the fence and bark --- she sat up in her bed and barked - so her back could be the pain?? I brought her food out to her - only gave half waiting to find out about the rimadyl and she ate it no problem -- she ate laying down but got up to go to her water and walked very stiff and looked like it was hard for her to lower her head to drink - her back?? I dont know? Would she be vomiting if it were her pancreatitis?? Shes not - My vets office should be calling by 1200 and Ocean State said orthopedic may not be in today - waiting

[Cyn719]

I spoke to the Orthopedic - maybe lumbar pain maybe maro - but he felt a course of pred is need - then my vet called went over the whole thing I mentioned the course of pred she said lets do it to give her relief while we try to figure this out ( and she explained a cat scan or mri would answer questions but I cant afford it now - i really cant) then she added I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING IF DR SWEET -THATS THE ORTHO - WENT AHEAD AND PUT HER ON THE PRED ON HIS OWN I WOULD BE PRETTY UPSET RIGHT NOW!!!! I am like this is not a constest of who thinks of what first!!!!!! Shes thinking of herself wanting to be number 1!!! Really!!! I said he is the most wonderful vet - he did Pennys knees years ago and when I call him he returns my call immediately and takes her in right away and he said to past it by you first - he has class!!! Ugggggg she really got to me today and right now I cannot think about another vet till I am done with my health issues -- she said Penny does not need cPL the ??? test was normal - so I have to go back and look at her test - she said shes not vomiting and test was normal??? Am I doing the right thing ??? I feel totally helpless right now and feel so sick from this prep I really can think or see clearly - help needed big time today:(

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

Sounds like you have a vet with a bit of an ego, huh? If your vet was referring to the bloodwork that was done on September 27th, you may want to remind her that it was not normal. Two values stand out in my mind. While it is normal for a cushdog to have a mild increase in ALT, Penny had a threefold increase which says to me that there is an illness, other than cushing's, that is impacting the liver. Penny's Amylase was more than moderately elevated too, which would make pancreatitis a likely suspect. Has your vet done any additional blood chemistry since the 27th that was normal? I suppose it's possible that your vet did a CPLI snap test which came back normal, yes?

I had to take my mom's dog to the ER Saturday night because she had been vomiting all day and refused to eat. Tests revealed she had pancreatitis. In her case, the ALT was a bit elevated, lipase was severely elevated and amylase was normal. A CPLI snap test definitely confirmed pancreatitis. She spent 48 hours in the hospital on fluids. I talked to the ER vet at length and she said that a dog doesn't have to have an elevation in both pancreatic enzymes in order to make a confirmed diagnosis. She also said that a dog can have silent pancreatitis, meaning that the dog has no symptoms. I believe Lori can attest to both of these statements.

I went through the colonoscopy ordeal last year and I can tell you that the prep is definitely worse than the procedure. I feel your pain and your hunger pains. I was starving by the end of the day and feeling as weak as a kitten. Actually a kitten could have kicked my butt that day. :D Take good care of yourself and thank your lucky stars that colonoscopies are not part of our annual check up.

Hugs,
Glynda

[Cyn719]

Glynda - oh yes ego problem for sure - and today was not the day to mess with me!!!!!! I was all over her when she said that about my other vet!!!! He is one of the nicest vets I have met!!!! uggggg! Well she said to me today Penny does not need a cPL test the other test were normal so no need and she is not vomiting - normal I dont have it in front of me by I was told by you and I think Deb and ?? is was not normal and she needed a cPL - I dont get this vet right now!!!! so I will have to go look at it so I know what to say to her!! So what do you feel about the pred????? anyone???? She just layed in the yard ALLL day - drank - and ate alittle breakfast - due now for pred and dinner ???????:confused: Thanks I do feel awful considering I didnt sleep last nite being up with little girl and I wont sleep tonite cause me and the bathroom with be roommates for sure!!!:eek:

[Squirt's Mom]

Pardon my french, but I would tell your GP to go screw herself! :mad: Until you feel up to find an new GP, just take Penny to see Dr. Sweet.

Colonoscopy!!!!! OMG! I HATE those things! I hate them so badly they have to give me extra stuff so I don't fight them the whole time even tho I'm out! :o A funny...the first one I had they gave me this little pill to take and told me to be sure to take it at home. Well, big tough gal that I am, I thought I could take it at work and be fine until I got home. noooooooooooooooo.....that little thing went to work in like 3 minutes flat! I had to drive over 30 miles AFTER taking the pill. :eek: All I can say is thank goodness I didn't have cloth seat covers and my office had some towels they let me sit on while I went home. :o By the time of the test the next day, I was like Glynda - a little breeze could have blown this big tough gal flat on her face! But my little car stank to high heavens for weeks! :p

Good luck on the test!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

To funny Glynda!! You go girlfriend!!!!:D:D I just told my husband what the vet said and I really cant repeat what he said on this nice friendly page:eek::D:D He said after almost killing the dog you think she would be nice!! Ya think!!!! And Dr Sweet is the sweetest mand you will ever mean - hes young and so knowledgeable !! But hes the orthopedic so he cant take over her case. Well right now I have to deal with things one day at a time me now - yup will be up all night - this is my second one had one at 45 since I had cancer had to go early - so the doctor knows he has to give me extra extra cause I dont go out easy!! I spoke to him today - he said Im ready for you!! oh boy!! See I am the opposite - I took all that stuff and drank that stuff and never went all day!!!! Very bad plumbing - so I will go all night!!! Uggg just as long as things are ok - that C thing is always in the back of my mind - Hodgkins likes to show up in other places!:eek: But at least I will know what he say and didnt see when I wake up -- now this little fur baby just took 10 mg of pred and ate all her dinner - so is this pred thing ok to do????? Thanks for the advice and your your good wishes!!

[Cyn719]

sorry was posting the same thing twice - tired!!

[Cyn719]

THE POST AT 5:43 TODAY CAN ANYONE COMMENT ON THE BLOOD WORK - SHE HAS ME CONFUSED ON THIS ONE

AMY 852 the rang says 200-120 is there a number missing - I am looking at the paper from the lab and thats what it says and then I went to a website and it said

Amylase (AMY) 200 - 1290 The pancreas produces and secrets amylase to aid in digestion. Elevated blood levels can indicate pancreatic and/or kidney disease.

So is the AMY normal????

[ShannonJ92]

Hi Cindy, not sure if this will help (lab ranges differ it seems) but I just lookes at Pebbles' blood work from one of her mid-September testings and her Amylase level was 2450 with the range being 500-1500. I'm thinking your range is supposed to be 200-1200 (???) in which case I would assume it's within the norm.

Sounds like you have a lot going on again. I do hope help can be had for Penny and things work out for the best with a great vet who will do her and you justice. It can be so scary and frustrating, I fully understand, my continued best wishes to you and keep posting updates.

~Shannon

[StarDeb55]

Cindy, I can't find a post with that time stamp from earlier with any bloodwork values listed. Please post the actual post #, & I should be able to find it. I can't seem to find the labs that Glynda commented on from 9/27, now, either. If you can tell me the exact post # where the lab values are, I want to look at it, again, to refresh my memory. Glynda's comments did give me enough of a memory wakeup to tell you that I, did indeed tell you that based on the elevated amylase, I would strongly suggest the cPLI test. As I mentioned in an earlier post, pancreatitis can cause very severe pain. Mary Beth's JRT has had several round of pancreatitis where she is arching back & acting lack her back is very sore, but it's pancreatitis. This kind of behavior is what tipped Mary Beth off on the last episode of pancreatitis.

I don't want to harp on this as I know you have a lot of stuff going on right now, personally, but this latest outburst from your vet is so far out of line, it's beyond laughable. She/he obviously has no interest in working with you as a team on Penny's behalf, & you really need to consider finding another vet. Perhaps your ortho vet can suggest someone?

Debbie

[lulusmom]

Debbie, here is the labwork done on 9/7. It does appear that there is a zero missing in the high end of normal reference range. I think it should have been 1200, not 120.


Hi - This is Pennys blood work from when she was in the vets on Tuesday - I still dont understand the bloodwork so if you can look at it and tell me what its saying - I know that Deb usually reads everyones bloodwork so hopefully she will be along too - thanks :)

ALB 4.4 2.5 - 4.4
ALP 2400 20-150
ALT 372 10-118
AMY 852 200-120
TBIL 0.3 0.1-0.6
BUN 22 7-25
CA 11.4 8.6-11.
PHOS 5.7 2.9-6.6
CRE 1.0 0.3-1.4
GLU 122 60-110
NA+ 146 138-160
K+5.1 3.7-5.8
TP 7.1 5.4-8.2
GLOB 2.8 2.3-5.2

QC OK

[Cyn719]

I guess my choice of words were wrong - i shouldnt of said too funny - but I needed a little humor today - it was a bad day all around - Penny - me feeling sick with this prep - a friend was having a bone marrow test - it should of been like Yesss you said it Glynda!!! Cause what she said is exctly what I wanted to say WOW BIG EGO but didnt - I know this vet is wrong - believe me but to change right now is a big move - I have the ortho overseeing now and I will try to move on slowly - the vet I want to go to is at Ocean State and it is sooo expensive and right now it is really hard - So can you tell me if this course of pred seems right or safe ??? Has anyone else had to do this? Thanks Just saw Glynda found the results thank you

[Cyn719]

Deb the blood work is written on the lab paper just as I wrote it so 200 - 120 does that mean 1200 or 120,000 ? does that mean the 852 is in range ? This was confusing - thanks for checking it again for me

[lulusmom]

Cindy, I'm pretty sure the high number should have been 1200, which means Penny' Amylase is within the normal range. That's good news.

[Harley PoMMom]

I talked to the ER vet at length and she said that a dog doesn't have to have an elevation in both pancreatic enzymes in order to make a confirmed diagnosis. She also said that a dog can have silent pancreatitis, meaning that the dog has no symptoms. I believe Lori can attest to both of these statements.


I certainly can confirm that what Glynda has said to be true. Harley's pancreatitis was found on his first ultrasound. He never showed any symptoms of pancreatitis but we had a cPLI test done to confirm that he had pancreatitis, his results were 528 (0-200.) Around 6 months later we ran another cPL test along with checking his amylase and lipase.

Harley's lipase and amylase were both in the normal ranges but his cPL test results were 464 and still no symptoms.

The amylase and lipase results were from Antech Diagnostics with reference ranges: amylase (290-1125), lipase (77-695.)

Sending huge hugs, Lori

[Cyn719]

Lori and Glynda - thanks for looking at those numbers I have been looking at this lab sheet over and over and thats how it printed so the range is 200 - 1200 -- ok so she is good for now with that - now its back to the liver the lumbar or a marco - Dr Sweet said Penny would have to go for a cat scan or mri to follow through with any of these things and it is so costly - I really want to know what it is but my vet seems to believe its a marco - for what her opinion is worth right now and Dr Sweet said hes at a 50/50 without seeing films - why i go through my test and think of what to do I just want her to not be in pain - she alittle better tonight but tired very tired - with the pred I thought she would have alittle more energy - maybe tomorrow will be better - I wont sleep thats for sure - I have to leav here at 650 am so that will come fast - I just feel uneasy about all this pred ??? Again your constant posting always makes me feel that all of you are right here with me xo

Lori so Penny should have the cPL even if her AMY was ok - I just reread what you posted

[Harley PoMMom]

Lori so Penny should have the cPL even if her AMY was ok - I just reread what you posted

I would first find out if your vet performed the snap cPL, if this was done and the results were normal than I would not pursue with the spec cPL test.

Harley only ever showed pancreatitis signs when his pancreas was very inflamed meaning his spec cPL test was >900. Not wanting to eat and a very tender tummy were his symptoms when his pancreas was flaring up. The IDEXX spec cPL test, from my vet, cost me $85.00 to have done. If the snap cPL was not done and it is within the budget to have the spec PL test performed, at least this would be one thing you could either rule out or in. Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Cyn719]

Lori no snap cPL was done - i asked today if she ever checked into anyother bloodwork for her pancreas she said no so should I have the snap cPL or go right for the spect cPL? I would like to rule that out completely -

[Harley PoMMom]

If I wanted to rule out/in pancreatitis than I would have the spec PL test done from IDEXX. Here's the link: http://www.idexx.com/view/xhtml/en_us/smallanimal/reference-laboratories/testmenu/innovative-tests/spec-cpl.jsf?SSOTOKEN=0

[Cyn719]

Can you (or anyone) give your advice on the pred treatment - good or bad??

OK I will demand she runs it cause I know now if I want something that she doesnt believe in I have to demand it and if not Dr Sweet will run it for me - also I dont want to open a can of worms but I want her urine checked also - it has not been checked in a long time and she use to get alot of UTIs Thank you all for these on going post - I think you know how much its helping me get through this - alot of you have enough of your own issues but you are always right there for me -- well this is why they say we are family - that is so true!! Well I am going to go read - trying to get tired - cant - anixety level way up from this and tomorrow - plus my cousin at 52 found out last year he has colon and liver cancer so of course thats in my mind - cancer really runs in this family - I hope once was enough for me nite I will check in tomorrow afternoon -

[addy]

Hi Cindy,


I hope everything goes well today. I will be thinking of you.

I hope Penny feels better too. If it were me and the pred helped her, I would do it for a few days. If it is not helping her, that is a different story. I am no expert here, there are others far more knowledgeable than me, but Penny's symptoms don't sound like the symptoms we normally hear from macros. Is she doing the head trembling she did earlier? For Zoe not reacting to things she used to stems most of the time from her hearing loss and I wonder if Penny's energy level goes up and down depending on the pain she is in and all her meds, we all have good and bad days. I am not trying to minimize her issues but these extreme highs and lows just don't make any sense. to me. You know her best. Do you keep a daily log on her including weather, stress events, etc? I wonder if you did, if you might notice a pattern.

Sorry for rambling, I just hate to see you go through this all.

Love,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Cindy,

Rather than demanding anything of your current vet, why don't you ask Dr. Sweet if he can give you the name of an internal medicine specialist. Penny has a lot going on and if she were mine, I'd want an IMS on the case, especially if I could not afford the MRI or CT. If you have to guess at what is going on with Penny, who best to draw an educated and experienced conclusion than an internal medicine specialist.

I don't think anybody is big on giving prednisone long term to their dog but sometimes it is necessary to bring them some relief. The question of whether prednisone is wise considering the cushing's diagnosis and no current information on Penny's cortisol levels, would best be answered by an internal medicine specialist. Having said that, as a layman familiar with the drug, I personally think that it won't hurt to give Prednisone a try to see if it helps.

[marie adams]

((((Big Hugs to You!)))):D:):p
I hope you are feeling better and Penny is doing okay!! I am so sorry for all the stressfulness (is that a word???) you are going through right now--I hate STRESS!!!!:eek: It is aging me more than I want...

Here is to you getting the answers you need!!! Vets -- do not get me started. I think I have a good one now--sensible, I don't have to pay an arm and leg so far.:o

Please take care!!!

[frijole]

Cindy, I don't have a lot to contribute but I just wanted to tell you that my first vet (Annie) was convinced she had a macro. He was convinced because he did not have a flippin clue what was going on and didn't know what else to blame it on... we did the speccpl, and all kinds of tests... thousands of dollars... I finally wised up and went to a specialist. I had to drive 5+ hrs each way to another state! But that is the only way I found out what is wrong with Annie. I never saw Dr P as a long term solution working with your clueless vet because Dr P isn't physically there for you and your vet is over their head. I don't see you have much of a choice. Sorry if I'm being blunt.. trust me I have been in your shoes, didn't want to make a switch mid-stream because I'd have to get a new vet up to speed.. but frankly I now know I threw thousands of dollars down the drain because my original vet was clueless AND didn't seek out help for me. I went on my OWN to a specialist because I knew Annie would die if I did not.

You have so much going on and have spent so much already - you deserve to work with someone who knows what they are doing. We are glad to help all that we can but remember we are not vets. Hang in there and keep us posted. Deep breaths. Hugs, Kim

[Nika'sMom]

Cindy..I just want you to know that I am thinking about you today and hoping that all goes well with your tests...many hugs from Lynda

[Cyn719]

Thank you to all of you who have been responding and thank you for thinking of me - Penny is alittle better today - i expected better - she is on 10mg pred twice a day - she just seems tired but she is alittle better - lets see what the morning brings - I went for my test - I had to pre medicate for my heart problem and the dr game me alittle more of the good stuff to calm me down - I get very anxious going for test cause of the past cancer - so I slept the entire day when I got home - results good - bottom end got an A :) top ?? did bisopsy gastrist and hiatal hernia and checking for one more thing - and they said to go to my oncologist cause they see petechie on my skin - its been there awhile - I believe my dr did see it but didnt think it needed attention but nowwe will add that to the list tomorrow ---

I am calling dr sweet tomorrow - talk to him about a dr he works with - this pred i am ok with but it is for 2 weeks but maybe thats the normal course and it is suppose to be a low dose for her weight ??Again thanks for the support - I will post tomorrow when I can see straight xo

[Cyn719]

Debbie - Hi did you get to read the last few posts where I think the range wasnt correct on lab paper reading 200 - 120 which we think should of been 1200? so her 852 was in range but even if it is I should be doing the test anyway? Is that your feeling also ? Thanks Debbie for being there

[StarDeb55]

Yes, the result is within normal range. In light of symptoms, I still think it needs to be done. As Lori said, her Harley had a perfectly normal amylase & lipase, but his cPLi test was pretty elevated, so it's very possible to have pancreatitis without the obvious elevations in the amylase & lipase.

Debbie

[apollo6]

praying for Penny and you.
Thank you for being there for me also.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Cyn719]

Debbie thanks - yes the information lori gave me was interesting and I am going to test her - I wanted you to check it out since I had the range posted wrong in the beginning - guess their printer wasnt printing so good - Deb also the course of pred what is your take on it I undestand alot of dogs do it but it a 15 day course and I am not feeling great about it - Dr Sweet will be in tomorrow to help me with another vet BUT the 15 days starts out with 40 mg a day tappering down and she is 82 lbs

[Cyn719]

Penny still seems lile her stomach is upset after eating - what is the Slippery Elm for ???? Not eating -upsent stomach both????

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Cindy, this is what I posted on Sonja's Thread about slippery elm:


Hi Sonja,

Slippery Elm is used for many issues, it coats the stomach and helps to diminish the accumulation of acid in the stomach. Slippery Elm Bark (SEB) is a good treatment for ulcers, gastritis, colitis, and other inflammatory bowel problems. Its mucilage content coats, soothes and lubricates the mucus membranes lining the digestive tract. It is high in fiber, and so helps normalize intestinal action, relieving both diarrhea and constipation. It may also help alleviate nausea and vomiting in pups suffering from non-GI illnesses, such as Kidney Disease. SEB contains many nutrients (carbs, protein, fat, ascorbic acid, beta-carotene, calcium, and trace minerals) that can be beneficial for a dog that is not tolerating food at that time.

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

Did you discuss your concerns about the prednisone with Dr. Sweet before you started dosing Penny? If not, I would suggest that you discuss it with him. There is a really wide range of dosing, from 0.1 mg per pound to 3 mg per pound two or three times daily and without knowing what issues Dr. Sweet is targeting, we can't really provide you with an information that you can take to the bank. Penny's dose equates to approximately .5mg per pound, which is a tad more than the usual given for purposes of inflammation, but that is still a relatively conservative dose compared to the doses used for autoimmune issues, and I believe, brain tumors. Even without knowing Dr. Sweet's rationale, if Penny is responding well to the Prednisone, I personally would not be too concerned with a two week (tapering) treatment regimen. Dr. Sweet did give you complete instructions on how to dose, right?

[Cyn719]

Correction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Penny is taking 20 mg a day for the first 5 days 1o mg in the am 10 mg in the pm ---- i had two different bottles and i was looking at the wrong one ----- sorry i just had a bad couple of days - thank you so much for bringing that to my attention ---

[Cyn719]

Dr Sweet called - penny has many issues - two bad knees - surgery worked but arthritis set in - a very bad hock - lumbar spurs - arthritis - calcifications - stenosis - etc ----- so he said pred is ok to try but like he said he is not the Cushings specialist - he referred me to a Dr Block and a Dr Lester at Ocean State in East Greewich RI - he said they are both wonderful and if I can get there on a day he has clinic he will come in to go over his part with her/him - so this is where we are now - she is not good - this pred is not doing much at all -- she can get around but not right - starting the mouth thing alittle but she could be dry from the pred - gets up to just drink and go out - I thought the pred would of really perked her up considering when she started back on the Rimadyl she was like a puppy -- trying to get all these appts together now - :confused: as always

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Having Penny at a clinic where Dr. Sweet comes sounds like it could be an ideal situation! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

I love Dr Sweet - now I just have to get an appt with the new vet - I am nervous - I did read up on the pred and it could make them tired - she is very tired - I thought pred was going to give her a boost - this is where I still have this gut feeling her adrenal glands are damaged - I feel they are not producing the cortisol they should be - but then again I really dont know what I am talking about:o it just my thoughts running away with me as usual - I am keeping her on the pred - hope its the right thing to do - when you see my correction maybe you can give me a better insight on this - thanks

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

If Penny's adrenal glands are not producing enough cortisol, the prednisone would make her feel better. It is quite possible that the opposite is true and that her cortisol has crept up. Add prednisone to high cortisol and you could have a lethargic and depressed dog. If that were the case, I don't think Penny's ortho problems would be bothering her too much though.

[Cyn719]

Glynda - thanks for this infor - so you are saying maybe her glands are working ok and we are giving pred and if thats to much cortisol she would be lethargic and depressed - well do you consider lethargic just sleeping and getting up only to drink eat and go to the bathroom cause thats what she is doing -- again confusing cause when she came back from the vets when we thought it was the end she was bad and three days into the rimadyl she was a bouncing puppy for two weeks and bang - back to this sick looking dog - but not banging her back against the wall and not doing to much with her mouth - but she is only laying down thats all - but she eats when I give it to her - will eat a treat but doesnt ask for it - so the eating could be the pred - ok here we go the weekend and her appt with the new vet is on Wed with Dr Sweet sitting in on the appt. I am just confused if i shoud continue the pred - my vet today said yes continue she thinks shes seeing her next week to start the adequan shots so she said she would check her then - Im thinking go off the pred on sat have acth test on monday with her and take those results to new vet wed - ok here I go on and on when I am nervous Sorry!!

[labblab]

Cindy, I think that's terrific that Dr. Sweet has two specialists that he can recommend to you at Ocean State! Like I said earlier, it may mean more money upfront. But in terms of your peace of mind and also identifying truly useful tests over the long haul, I hope it will turn out to be a worthwhile savings.

At this point, Penny's case is really so complicated that I think you're far better off consulting with a specialist who has physically examined Penny and all of her records. We are definitely here to support you and we can try to make guesses about things. But I know that I personally am feeling more and more cautious about trying to give you advice. There are just so many question marks about Penny's condition, and I know you are facing very serious decisions. You need to be able to talk to a trained professional who has access to the whole big picture and who can consult directly with Dr. Sweet.

So I hope you'll be able to make an appointment as soon as possible. And assuming that you can get in quickly, if it were me, I'd hold off on any other testing until you've been able to consult with the specialist. As I say, he or she will be better able to judge what seems necessary and useful. GOOD LUCK and keep us updated! (And definitely "Good Luck," too, as far as your own biopsy results!!!!)

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Thanks Marianne - We were posting at the same time - appt is Wed at Ocean State - Thank you for your thoughts and wishes

[labblab]

Yes, I do see that we were posting at the same time :). And even though I just finished saying that I'm uncomfortable advising you at this point :o, here's my thought re: your question...;)

Can you call Dr. Sweet tomorrow? If so, I'd tell him how Penny is behaving and ask him for his opinion as to what route you should go. He'll know for certain, but I have doubts that he will want you to stop the prednisone "cold turkey" on Saturday. But maybe he'll suggest you taper down over the next several days so that Penny will be clear off the prednisone by the time of her appointment next Wednesday. Then the specialist can examine her, and make the decisions about the testing then. Or maybe he'll think Penny should stay on the pred until then. Either way, I'd feel better if you can ask him before making a decision.

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Good point Marianne - I was typing quicker than I could think:o:o You are right I need days to taper off this medication - I will call him tomorrow - he is in surgery but I know he will call back - she doesnt want to be bothered - when I go pet her she just doesnt care - just lays there - I am going to try to see if there are any cancelations tomorrow but I doubt it - another six days is a long time away

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

So glad you have an appt already and will be able to get Penny in to see the specialist along with Dr. Sweet....even tho 6 days will seem like an eternity to us all! ;)

I am with Marianne - call about the pred and see what the doc says about continuing or tapering off for the appt. They will know better than us or you how to approach this.

Chronic pain can take away your life in so many ways, one tiny bit at a time. Dogs are so stoic they don't let us know they are hurting until the pain is really bad for them. From the description of Penny's spine, I would guess she has been hurting for quite some time but the pain has now reached levels she can no longer hide. For the next six days forget about Cushing's, adrenal glands, Addison's, ect; focus on making her as comfortable as possible.
*If she doesn't want to get up to eat, hand feed her;
*if she is off her feed, get some NutriCal, etc so you can make sure she is getting the nutrients she needs;
*take her water bowl to her;
*when she needs to go out, help her walk by using a sling, etc (if your doc approved that) or have hubby carry her out and help her stand;
*if she does get up on her own, keep her restrained so she cannot jump, climb or run (if she feels better she will do things she really shouldn't, possibly causing more injury ;));
*touch her as much as possible, massaging her gently - the contact will help calm you both.

We are all with you, honey. Keep your chin up and take care of yourself. Do let us know how your tests come out.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

I have a question - just so I know what I am talking about on Wed - below are Pennys results before she started the trilo - are these normal results???


Penny 9/17/10

Cortisol (3Samples)

Tube Labeled Pre
Tube Labeled 4hr
Tube Labeled 8 hr
Cortisol Pre 4.4
Cortisol 2.5
Cortisol 4.2

normal response to ACTH canine 5.5-20.0
post-lysodren 1-5

[Cyn719]

Thank you Leslie and Marianne and Everyone for the advice

I am letting her relax and when I bring her the food she eats on her own - when she wants water she does get up on her own - I am rubbing her down - when she wants to go out I am helping her - she is just down - like depressed - if she doesnt get up in a resonable amount of time I bring her a treat and water - but does go out every few hours around the clock - excess drinking and peeing from pred - just wish pred would give her a energy boost but thats what the appt is for on Wed to figure this out - appreciated everything you all do for me each day - I know all of you have your issues also and I appreciate your time - HUGSSSSS

[lulusmom]

I have a question - just so I know what I am talking about on Wed - below are Pennys results before she started the trilo - are these normal results???


Penny 9/17/10

Cortisol (3Samples)

Tube Labeled Pre
Tube Labeled 4hr
Tube Labeled 8 hr
Cortisol Pre 4.4
Cortisol 2.5
Cortisol 4.2

normal response to ACTH canine 5.5-20.0
post-lysodren 1-5

Cindy, the results you posted appear to be the LDDS. These are not normal results and are consistent with cushing's. Unfortunately, it does not tell whether Penny has pituitary or adrenal dependent cushing's.

[frijole]

:D Glynda is right - you posted test results from a diagnostic test for cushings (the 8 hr ldds test) but the normal range for an acth test. Apples and oranges. The test is consistent with cushing's. Kim

[Cyn719]

i was getting her records together and just wanted to know if that was the test that determined Cushings - so that is the one I was looking for thanks:)

[marie adams]

Hi Cindy,

It is so hard when you know they just don't feel good--All you want for them is to feel better and get back to life again where they had fun.

It is good Penny is still getting up on her own. Just keep up being there for her as hard as this is on you also. You will know more soon!!

((((BIG HUGS TO YOU AND PENNY))))

[Cyn719]

All notes have been faxed th ocean state - of course no labs were faxed but I have them here - OMG wed is so far away - she paces alot - pred? drinks and pees alot pred? and she has that wide eyed look like someone just scared her could that be pred?? just to think a week ago her face looked so puppy like - like she was smiling - I dont like this pred but I have to do it i guess -- she wants to be in the basement so so bad - she got down there a few times but I am trying to keep her on first floor so she wont hurt much more but she ending up in second floor - so can she hurt that much? Hubby said pred is masking pain - oh yeah forgot about that - cant catch up from the other day - thanks for the thoughts everyone!!!

[Cyn719]

Thanks Marie!!!!:)

[addy]

Thinking of you and sending hugs. Hope the vet visit goes well on Wednesday. How is Penny doing today?

Love ya,
Addy

[SasAndYunah]

Cindy,

just letting you know I am following this thread and thinkig of you and Penny :) Hope wednesdays vet's visit will bring some clarity...

Hugs,

Sas and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

Addy and Sas -

Thank you so much for the good wishes!!! It means so much to me and Penny!!!!!! Penny was on 2 preds twice a day for five days now shes on her third day of just 2 a day - she seems ok at the moment - meaning she is getting around - eating - having treats - drinkin alot - but basially her hind legs are weak and starting to notice her front left leg getting weak also - the the one where her paw is flat footed - she still groans at night - probably cant get comfy - but I hope she can shed some light on things Wed - thanks again!!!! xo

[Cyn719]

WOW Penny went from the two pred twice a day to the two pred once a day and she is moving very slow - ummmm getting nervous shes not producing cortisol - I know I need to wait till Wed for her appt but I am just saying its getting me nervous:eek: Wed is so far away!!!:rolleyes: but it is when you are waiting to see the vet as we all know- ok I just needed to vent that I am getting anxious - need to go check on her - out side and she didnt want to come in - ok thanks for listening

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

How is Penny doing this morning? Just one more day to get through before she sees the docs! ~~whew~~

Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[labblab]

Cindy, I am so anxious for tomorrow to get here, too!!!!!!!! I am sending many hugs of strength and comfort to you and to sweet Penny. I hope so much that you'll feel good about the specialist, and that you'll start to find some answers.

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Leslie and Marianne - Thanks!!! I am just sitting her putting all her blood work in order and writing a summary of all that has happend since lost December - ALOT!! Writing questions - out of her like 1020 am appt 1100 - Dr Sweet called he will stop in on our appointment with Dr Keri Lester - googled her but cant find anything but she has to be good - Dr Sweet said Ocean State is lucky to have her on staff and its only her and Dr Block for IMS there - I will post tomorrow afternoon -

Penny is ok - just seems depresses - you know that happy face you see in your dog when they are happy and feel good - well I havent seen that in Penny in like the last two weeks - she just lays in the yard all day - that is - so its like she is depressed - 24 more hrs to go!!

[Cyn719]

Almost here - vet tomorrow -- but penny has very soft stools right now - just like pudding - pred?? so I can add some pumpkin in food like a tablespoon???

[Squirt's Mom]

Plain pumpkin should be fine, sweetie. Anxiously waiting for the appt tomorrow with you!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thank you!!! I will feel like you are sitting there with me!!!! ok going to give her some pumpkin with her food - what a good dog I told her she had to wait to make sure the pumpkin was ok so she layed in her bed and waited!! lol

[frijole]

Almost here - vet tomorrow -- but penny has very soft stools right now - just like pudding - pred?? so I can add some pumpkin in food like a tablespoon???

Yes - perhaps a bit less than a tablespoon. Certainly no more... causes the reverse which you don't need. Feed it in food or straight up - whichever Penny prefers. Twice a day and she should plug right up.

Just cleaned up some runs myself. Lord. Kim

[Cyn719]

LOL LOL Kim -- do you think Penny will make this easy for me??? I put a heaping teaspoon in her food - noooo way will not eat it at all -- so now I tried feeding her it from the can - OMG you would think I was feeding her poison!!! Well not going to force her - I am going to take a stool sample with me tomorrow - will the pred effecto the results of that ???

[frijole]

LOL LOL Kim -- do you think Penny will make this easy for me??? I put a heaping teaspoon in her food - noooo way will not eat it at all -- so now I tried feeding her it from the can - OMG you would think I was feeding her poison!!! Well not going to force her - I am going to take a stool sample with me tomorrow - will the pred effecto the results of that ???

No! Poop is Poop. :D:p:eek:;)

[Cyn719]

Kim LOL LOL LOL yup you know when I need a good laugh!!!!!:D Love it and needed it!!!! Ok poop sample is on the list of to dos for the morning along with labs - history and questions!! Oh and the Adequan Shots - almost forgot those!!

[jmac]

Cindy-
Good luck tomorrow! I am so glad the appointment is finally here for you. I know how difficult it is to wait! I'll check in tomorrow night to see what you find out. I'm crossing my fingers for you!

(Hannah gets groomed at my vet on Thurs. I can't wait to get that over with and see that she is okay--with no back issues after. It is stressing me out!).

I'll be waiting to hear tomorrow...

Julie & Hannah

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I am with you today even tho you can't see me! Hoping for all the best.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

I am sitting on your shoulder, whispering words of support in your ear:D

You will do just fine.

waiting to hear,
love,
addy

[marie adams]

Hi Cindy,

I will sit on the other shoulder with Addy and hold your ear because I won't be able to hold your hand so far away!!:D

Here is praying you get the answers and good answers you need!!:)

((HUGS))

[Cyn719]

Thank you all for being there for me and Penny today - It really felt like you were all there with us!!! And I really mean that cause the vet said to me you are very calm and are knowledgeable about this situation right now. And I said yes I am but only because of the friends I have met on the K9 Cushings forum - they have taught me alot and I actually feel like they are all here in this room with me!! And my husband told her if it wasnt for me meeting all of you our Penny wouldnt be with us today!!!!! So thank you - I hope you all realize how special you all are to us:)

Ok on to the appointment - She was wonderful!!! Young! Three people in there said the owners of the hospital said they are blessed to have her there - she is so warm - kind - understanding and brillant!! So she said that when my vet doubled the dose of trilo she cant disagree with that because that is what protocal calls for BUT she agrees with me that she waited way to long to do the ACTH when I was telling her how Penny was acting!!!! That was a big mistake which did probaly damage her glands!!!! uggg! Also she should of immediately stopped the trilo and started pred if Penny needed it as she did! I told her that all of you told me to stop it and start the pred immediately! - She was like glad you listen!!! So does she have a macro ?? Shes not showing ture signs of it but it could be big but not big enough right now to cause more signs and/or seizures - lumbar pain and leg pain - yes she has multiply problems there -plus the muscle wasting - for the pain the dasaquin - Adequan shots started today - finish up the pred and tramadol at night - pepcid up to two a day -- After the pred is out of her system for 10 days do an ultra sound to look at the glands - is there a tumor there now that was not before?? Look at the liver and at the pancreas -- do a low dex test - Her feeling may be we are dealing with something else besides Cushings or Addisons - liver disease - pancreas issures - sever gland damage - or ?? As the pred is tapering off if she gets worse before she goes back for tests call her and she will have to do a ACTH to see how much cortisol is being produced - Her problems could now be Addisions --This poor baby was so so nervous (as she usually is) she came home I was sitting at counter and it sounded like someone opened a fire hydrant!! She got so so sick - Mostly water - totally projectile!!!!!I think she is feeling alittle better - she is sleeping now - poor baby -- So yes I do feel better but I am so mad at my vet for where Penny is at today -- and upset at myself that I didnt do this sooner - I said that all the way home and its eating at me but I cant go back in time - I have to do what I can now -- It was hard to go there before and now because of the money - if money wasnt an issue she would of already had every test she needed!! So forward I will go - now the waiting 10 days to have the test done - again from my heart thank you:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Now, Cindy, don't start the blame game. There can be no winners. ;) Start from today, with this vet who sounds like a positive change for sure, and continue doing what you have been doing all along - your very best. Penny is lucky to have you; you have worked so hard for her and I know you will keep on doing just that.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[ShannonJ92]

Cindy, you're doing all within your power to help Penny. It is so obvious how much you love and adore her, she knows that too. It can be do disheartening when disagreements with vets occur (believe me, I know) or we feel they should've done more or something sooner or... you see where I'm going with this. Youa re doing your best, just as we all are. It's a rough road, not only with the Cushing's but when secondary issues are present. Again, I know. You and Penny will be in my thoughts and prayers!

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie and Shannon - I know - no sitting here and ragging on ourselves that its our fault or we havent done enough for our baby - thats why I said I am moving forward (I fell brave today when I was posting !:p:D) Hope I stay like that:rolleyes: Well 2 weeks of waiting - she has 5 - 6 more days of pred and then the 10 days off of it then test -- hope Penny can stay ok for that period of time but at least I know I have the IMS to turn to :)

[jmac]

I agree with the others. You can't blame yourself. You have already done everything you can for Penny and you will continue to do so. She knows that. You know that. You are right to focus on the present and start from today. It's not always the easy thing to do, but Cushing's is complicated, and like you said, there may be other issues. Know that Penny is lucky to have such wonderful "parents" and that we all know you are doing what you believe is best for your girl. Keep up the good work. I'm glad things went well and that you had such a positive experience today.

Julie & Hannah

[Cyn719]

Thank you Julie!!

I was posting quicking today and was rambling on but I did mean to say adrenal damage is on the top of the list of her possible problems and they do not want to put her back on trilo because of how she reacted to it with the episodes - the tremors - the lethargic state - etc so she said IF she has to go back on something it would be a low dose of Lysodren - has anyone had to switch from trilo to Lysodren??

[StarDeb55]

Cindy, Glynda has switched both of JoJo & Lulu from trilo to lysodren without any problems. Recommended protocol for this type of switch is a minimum of a 30 day washout period where the pup is getting no medication, a return of symptoms, or both.

Debbie

[Cyn719]

Debbie - so right now Penny is not on trilo but on pred so she would have to be off the pred for 30 days before beginning the Lysodren if needed - and if she does have adrenal damage that means shes is not producing enough cortisol so she would not need Lysodren but would need pred? I think I did ask the IMS this question but it was overwhelming but I do think I said that and she said she would need a pred or a type of pred to replace the cortisol

[StarDeb55]

No, the washout period only applies to the 2 Cushing's medications, trilo or lysodren, when switching between the 2. Now, whether she needs pred on a long term basis is still the question, & you really won't know that until you have an ACTH. The following link has a lot of info about Addison's disease & the medications used to treat it. IMO, Penny is probably not permanently Addisonian, but she will probably be on a nice long trilo holiday.

http://canineaddisonsinfo.com/Medication.html

[Cyn719]

Thanks Debbie as always - I checked out the link:)

[kapohotricia]

Dear Cindy,
I've been thinking of you and Penny so much today. It is sooo hard to see our babies go through all this isn't it? I really feel for you. You are loving Penny as well as you know how and she can feel that. Hugs for you and a kiss for Penny. Hang in there.
Aloha,

Tricia and Kirby

[Cyn719]

Tricia - thank you Tricia for thinking of us - It really means alot:) yes its so hard to see them go through this - Its just a waiting game to see what the next day brings - - in ths past she had good days then bad days back and forth but now she is just having the bad days - she just lays down all day - eats when I put the food in front of her - doesnt ask for treats - and when I lay on the floor with her she just looks away - so sad! I try to figure it out but I cant - I just have that marco thought - she is just not socialing like she use to - wish I could get the old Penny back that back -- And how is your little one doing??

[SasAndYunah]

Hang in there, Cindy, hopefully this new vet and her approach will bring some usefull answers :) I was at least pleased to read she was a kind and caring vet and that you liked her, that already is a huge part of any treatment.

You are doing such a wonderful job caring for Penny...eventhough at times you may feel helpless, Penny knows that she matters to you more then words can say, she knows that above anything else, you love her. And having worked and dealt with straydogs a lot, I am convinced there's nothing more important we can give them. Of course we wish we could give them health and take their pain away, but that's not always in our hands. But loving them, is something we can do always. I have seen too many unwanted and stray dogs (and cats) die without ever being loved and that's something we can "control"...sickness is part of life (how unfair it may seem) and we can only try and manage it to the best of our ability. But love is what you can give her...and that's precisely what you do, the most precious gift to any living creauture :)

Hugs,

Sas and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

Sus -

thank you for the beautiful words and thoughts - everything you said is so ture - I show her my love each minute of the day - I just feel so bad that she is so depressed - no emotion - no wag of the tail - looks so sad - and it hurts when she turns away everytime I go the kiss her - does she had a headache? is it her head ? the unknown its what gets to us - but I am still there loving and hugging her all the time - Hugs back to you and Yunah!

[Cyn719]

My baby is just so depressed and moving slower each day - she starts only one pred a day tomorrow - I have to see how it goes - I may have to call the IMS to give an update - I hate to say the words but its like she is just existing - its just had that she is not happy to see me or happy at all....

[jmac]

Cindy-
I'm sorry to hear that Penny is not doing so well. It is so hard to see them struggle. Like Sas said, sickness is something we cannot control, as hard as it may be. Penny knows you love her and that you have done everything you can for her and so do we. All you can do is do your best to take care of her and try to make her happy. We're all here to offer support and we can all relate to the challenges of trying to figure out what to do to make our little ones happy. I'll keep you and Penny in my thoughts and hope that she is feeling a little better soon.

Julie & Hannah

[Cyn719]

Wow crazy - yesterday I posted how bad Penny was now today she had a very good day - she barked alot - was rolling on her back - OMG she has not done that in so long!!! she was in - she was out - she went up and down the stair very good - I am not complaining at all believe me its just how fast they change - its crazy - and when they get a good day you hope you wake up to it again tomorrow but with this disease you never know thats for sure!!!! Praying for all of you and your little ones - going to watch some TV and try to get some sleep (yeah I will fall asleep at 2 lol) the boy is coming home tomorrow with a nice big bag of laundry for me - how sweet of him and husband will be off for work in the AM- just packed his pillow and sheets and clothes - on rescue dont know when you will be home!! Hope you all get some well needed rest -

[rbeasl]

Cindy

I am so glad your baby girl had a good day... You both deserve it.. I know it is so weird ...Every morning you check to see what type of day they will have... I've scratched my head in amazement, but Im like you I will take it and enjoy the moment.... I hope you and Penny have alot more days like this...

Take Care
Rhondalyn and Honey

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Glad to hear you and Penny had a good day. We live for those, don't we?

I hope the weekend brings good thing as well.

Love,
addy

[jmac]

Hi Cindy-
Also glad to hear Penny had a good day! It brings such a huge wave of relief, doesn't it? I hope today will go well as well and you can enjoy some time with your son (and his laundry). ;)

Julie & Hannah

[Cyn719]

Thanks Addy - Julie and Rhondalyn - yes we take all the good moments we can get - thats for sure - yes the laundry arrived a half hour ago :rolleyes: and he is off the visit my mom and dad - nana made him a pizza :cool: i better get a piece!!:D Penny did really have a good day yesterday up until last nite -- alot of groaning and stretching of her legs - she is now on the first day of the pred at only one once a day so getting alittle nervous - different when she was taking 2 twice a day and 2 once a day but down to one a day :eek: I hope she doesnt lose all her energy - and of course its a weekend!!! but here to watch her closely as we all do each day - hope you all have a good weekend with your fur babies - keep me updated:)

[Cyn719]

Thursday Friday and part of Saturday she was good - but today - not so good - very tired and drinking alot!! She on on the tapering off of the pred and is on the second day of 1 5mg pred a day - she is running out of gas for sure! I know the vet said she may not be producting enough cortisol and if so we are taking the pred away from her so she will get worse - I have to contact her tomorrow to give her an update cause Penny still has 3 days left of 1 pred a day and then 1 every other day for 5 days - dont know if she cant handle that many days off pred and no subsitution for the cortisol or the pain??? Thanks for letting me babble on and on

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

You're doing a good job of noting changes in Penny as the pred is reduced. Keep notes and let the vet know about all you have seen....then let us know what they said.

Still holding you both in my thoughts and prayers daily.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie - I will do that - she is so up and down I do need to keep track -- She lost her spunk for sure today - last week she chased a bunny back and forth and today I was putting her in the yard and I saw her stop and stare and there was a squirrel 2 feet from us and she just stared and didnt chase it - when it ran away she just trotted to see where it went - thats not my Penny!
Thanks you so much for your thoughts and prayers:)

[SasAndYunah]

Our thoughts and good wishes for you and Penny continue to go your way...

Sas and Yunah :)

[ShannonJ92]

How is Penny doing tonight, Cindy? I keep her and you in my thoughts and prayers, it is very much an up and down rollercoaster. I'm on the ride too. I wish I could help you but just know I am here with support.

~Shannon

[rbeasl]

Cindy,

My heart goes out to you and Penny... I know how hard it is to see Penny not herself... I will be sending out my super special prayer out tonight for Penny to feel better... She will get better just keep the faith... I know we are both in the same boat in holding out on the prednisone until the test. I dont know if I am telling you the right thing, but I'm shoving that pill down Honeys throat if I feel he is just too weak... I will have to worry about the test later... His test is this Thursday and I am watching every last move... He looks at me like WHAT NOW... Right now he stills has energy and eating normal... I just wish Thursday gets here quick...

Just know we are all here with you and praying for things to get better..

Take Care
Rhondalyn and Honey

[Cyn719]

Thank you Sas - Shannon and Rhondalyn - all the thoughts and prayers are so comforting - Penny is slowing losing her energy - shes eating but not like before -- before I just put it in front of her and she would eat now I have to really add to it and even with that tonight she just did not want to hear it - she just walked away! I just fed her alittle an hour ago and she finally ate - she just wants to be outside on her blanket all the time - she has not interest in me at all - just turns away - and this dog and me have been together for 12 years and I have been home with her all the time - we are like attached at the hip!! She looks like an old person who has dementia just stares and wants to be alone - calling vet tomorrow just to let her know how she is doing

[ShannonJ92]

Oh, Cindy, I feel fairly comfortable saying that Penny is interested in you but if not feeling well she may just need her time alone to rest (still under your watchful eye of course). I'm so sorry she's not herself and hope that the vet provides you with some answers, I will check back for an update soon. Good luck to you and your sweet girl and may she feel better soon.

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

I went to moms tonight for a quick piece of her bday cake - was only gone an hour - left Penny water and she has water on the second floor also - when I came in she was waiting for me at the door and her bowl was empty upside down in the middle of the floor and the bowl upstairs was empty to - she wanted water so bad!!! Now I cant figure if its from the Pred - shes weaning off - or if its the cushings kicking in - she eats a good breakfast but not a good dinner - her stool is soft - and she drinks so much she spits it back up and tonight a little of her dinner came up from drinking so much - but they said to give her as much water as she needs - pepcid twice a day also - poor baby - my vet will be in tomorrow - I will call again - I cant get her to eat the pumpkin neither - I try everyday -- see what the morning brings

[Cyn719]

Another weird thing happened tonight (but has happened before just didnt think much of it) I was watching TV in den she was in DR laying on floor sleeping and I heard banging - and it got louder so I went and checked her - it looked like she was running in her sleep - her legs were going and her tail was banging and i sat by her side and called her name and pet her gently and it took a few seconds but she finally opened her eyes and stopped - and then stretched - now could it of been some type of seizure of was she just in a very deep sleep? next time I will have to grab the camera and try to video it - I wasnt thinking just wanted her to wake up -- ok between the water bowls tonite and that I am tired but I know I will not really sleep cause I will be listening for her and hubby is on resuce tonight and all day tomorrow - so what else is knew whenever she has an issue she waits for mom to be all alone!!! Well not really I know you are all there too!!!!!:) Nite

[labblab]

Cindy, were you able to speak to the specialist yesterday to update her, or is that who you are going to call today? I really think it will be good for the specialist to know about these changes in Penny. :(

I'm so sorry she is not doing better.

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Marianne - she wasnt in yesterday - I will speak to her today - not sure if she was just in a deep sleep or not - but this has happened in the past - but it is always when she is sleeping -

Penny is going to the bathroom very very soft - maybe just the consistency of pudding and light colored - she will not eat the pumpkin so I guess burger and rice or chicken and rice?

[Cyn719]

Penny is going to the bathroom very very soft - maybe just the consistency of pudding and light colored - she will not eat the pumpkin so I guess burger and rice or chicken and rice? The vet will call me later today

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

Boneless, skinless, boiled chicken breast and rice is best.

[Cyn719]

Thank you Glynda - I will do that now:) when they go so soft and so light color could that be from the food? We switched her from the Purina one to the Merrick Kibble and canned food - but my husband said it was soft before that for awhile to so I dont really know what its from and shes not on trilo but still on pred

[marie adams]

Hi Cindy,

Penny won't eat the pumpkin even if you mix it with her favorite food? I always mix it in the food. I have now frozen a big spoonful in bags so when I see the runny poop start I take one out and mix it in. I have mixed it with the rice and chicken and yogurt. Then it isn't as potent.:o

Ella does the running in her sleep with whimpering noises. When you wake her or she wakes up she looks like a bed head with her fur on her ears messed up and one ear sticking up--very funny. Maddie did this also; so I will go with they are just dreaming they are running free in that big field with their buddies.:D

I hope you get good news today!!! :)

[Cyn719]

Marie - thanks I do put it in her food that she likes and she still says no way!!!:D But i boiled her some white rice and some chicken - so I will try it in that - she is a fussy girl for sure!! We went to Dunkin Dounts one day and the girl gave her a munchkin she took it and then spit it right out - so funny and the girl said all the dogs usually like them - not my girl!! I hope the vet calls soon - I think she running in her sleep - shes been doing it awhile - but last night she got my attention cause it sounded like galloping:D She woke up and looked at me like WHAT! and stretched - soo?? I can see her struggling with that leg with the hock injury - and she was doing the mouth thing a little today - like she has a bad taste in her mouth - and opening her mouth like to stretch her jaw - vet said if it is marco she could do that?? Or maybe its because her stomach doesnt feel good - hard to know - but she is down to one pred every other day for a week so its leaving her system slowing maybe she is feeling her pains more - if only I could ask her whats wrong

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

I've been meaning to comment on what you call the mouth thing. I am really familiar with licking air, bobbing head while licking air or making chewing motions with no food in the mouth, holding mouth open like the jaw is locked or trying to reposition the jaw. These are all things a dog with TMJ (Temporomandibular Joint Disorder) will do. Both Jojo and my mom's dog, Chloe, have TMJ and they both do really weird stuff with their mouths. Has your vet ruled out TMJ as a cause? If a dog has TMJ, it is not recommended to feed dry food because it hurts. I have TMJ and I cannot chew gum or eat anything crunchy or hard. If I do, I get serious headaches, my jaw locks up and it's painful.

[rbeasl]

Cindy,

I hope Penny is doing better today... Im like you .. I so wish they could talk.. It would be so much easier. ive been working on that, but I know I would run like crazy if Honey said one word..:)

Hang In There
Rhondalyn and Honey

[Cyn719]

Wow Glynda - never thought of that - and I do notice she does it more after she eats - especially a treat -- good question for the vet - who never called back yet - this is the IMS - I left a voice message but it may not be the end of her day yet -

Thanks Rhondalyn - I know she would stop me in my tracks if she could speak!! Well on some days she does a very good job of being verbal:D - Keeping a close watch - can tell pred is wearing off - her back leg is not steady and it really is shaking - never saw that before

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Tongue flicking, nose licking, yawning, wide yawns are also calming signals dogs use to calm themselves, us or another dog. Turid Rugaas "On Talking Terms With Dogs."

Is that what you could be seeing? Just wondered. My pups use them frequently.

Love,
addy

[Cyn719]

Addy

- maybe it could be - she use to lick her nose but not anymore - its more like you can hear it (smacking her lips) more than seeing it -- does the yawn thing too - Glynda mentioned TJM also - itso hard to detect -- so confusing! How is Zoe??

[frijole]

Annie smacks her lips/tongue when she has her episodes so I assume it is a sign of upset tummy or pain. Don't you wish they could talk? Kim

[Cyn719]

Oh yes Kim I do wish she can talk especially right now!!!!! :) So again is it herhead - lumbar her upset belly - still stool is like pudding -- and the vet didnt say how long rice and chicken - it that ok for days while trying to get back for normal and she is 82 lbs so its hard to fill her on the rice and chicken

Ok everyone vet called back tonight - ok not the vet a vet tech - now maybe I am wrong but I think the vet should get on the phone to talk to me -- I said did the vet leave for the night she said no she is right here I make the calls for her - so I had to tell her what was wrong then she put me on hold and told the vet then the tech came back and told me what the vet said then I said.... and so on so the conversation took 20 minutes and the tech was getting things wrong so I had to say it over again!! really?? you pay so much to go there and the vet cant talk for herself?? I really liked her but that kind of got to me --- so I told them about Pennys tounge thing - the episode where ? was she running in her sleep or was it an seizure? - told her she really didnt want to eat her food yesterday or today - but downed the rice and chicken so is it she doesnt like her new food anymore or losing her appetite but the chicken is sparking her appetite? So the end result was stay off pred for 24 hrs and do a ACTH test to see if she has Addisions - but I dont really think so - shes eating alot when she gets what she likes - she has the energy to go in and out 20 times a day - she is drinking alot - then they said it was $204 for the test and $65 is she has to examine her - she jus saw her a week ago!! Come on the test is enough -- well I dont know if we can get her there tonight - just got in my aunt that broke her fema this summer fell again and is in ER right now having a cat scan so I dont know what tomorrow will bring -- so what are your thoughts on this everyone? My question is when she was on pred she seemed very quiet and depressed - now weaning off on one 5mg every other day for a week and seems to have a little MORE energy???? Sorry for going on and on:D:o:D:o

[addy]

so complicated, Cindy, so hard to say, I have been wondering if Penny would perk up as you discontinued the pred, wondering if the pred was making her feel yucky and that she was not addisons, wondering if her cortisol is going up. so darn complicated and I am so sorry you are going through it.

Our vet techs call back unless it is to discuss a test result or diagnosis. But then if I ask to speak with IMS she calls eventually:rolleyes:

hang in there,
love
addy

[labblab]

Hi Cindy,

I'm so sorry about your aunt! Sometimes it just seems like when it rains, it pours. :confused:

Anyway, I have to agree with Addy that it is just really hard to know what is going at times. I do think it's a really good idea to go ahead and perform the ACTH test once Penny is clear of the prednisone. At least that will be one variable that will be accounted for. And even though it is frustrating to have to pay for another exam by the IMS, that may still turn out to be money well spent in the long run. She will be better able to compare and judge how Penny is doing on-and-off the prednisone.

Having said all that, I do agree that you should have the opportunity to speak directly to the IMS if you wish to do so. When my Cushpup was seeing a specialist, the vet tech also tended to be the one who called me back with testing results and instructions, etc. Sometimes that was OK, but I was not always happy with that, either. So when I really wanted to talk to the IMS, I said so. I always said that the IMS could call me back at his convenience, and that I realized it might be early or late in the day, or at some odd hour. But when I had specific questions that I wanted to ask, I didn't want to risk the confusion of going through a third person. Fortunately, when I was specific about that, my IMS did always ultimately get in touch with me. Maybe when you take Penny in for the ACTH, you can discuss that issue with the IMS, and find out how you can arrange to have direct telephone contact when you need it.

Marianne

[StarDeb55]

Just to let you know, Cindy, I fired an IMS for doing the exact same thing, plus a couple of other things. I was told that she did not take phone calls from clients, the vet techs did those.

Debbie

[Cyn719]

Addy - Maybe it was the pred - somone told me sometimes the pred can make them feel depressed and overall yucky where I thought it should of let her feel good??

Marianne - I know when it rains it pours and today it is really pouring out!!! and maybe a little snow tonight!!! tooo soon!! My aunt fractured a rib an cut her arm - she is back home - thank God - it could of been worse --- Yes you are right she does need the ACTH so she said when I take her she has to be off the pred for 24 hours but when I was at the vets she said she had to be off of it for 10 days - I just want a acturate result

Debbie - it is frustrating when I have to tell the tech she tells the vet comes back on the phone and says since Penny will not eat at all - and I stopped her and said she will eat but just rice and chicken no dog food she says oh I got that wrong hold on - Really if you hand the vet the phone I can tell her - she say I do the calls not the vet ugggg messages do not get reapeated the same way never!! So I will give that another chance but I dont like that at all---- so Deb what do you think about pred can it make them yucky and depressed? And what effect does the pred have if they dog has Cushings and what effect if the dog has Addisons? So it can be done 24 hrs off the pred the ACTH when originally she said 10 days? I think she feels Addisions right now but my gut says no. I thought she would be really out of it with Addisions shes moving slow and she does eat - ok confuesed -

[StarDeb55]

I doubt it as Penny is on such a low dose of pred now, it shouldn't be having any major effects such as nausea & inappetance. If anything, it would be increasing her appetite as it's acting like cortisol in the system. Any information that I have ever seen, or we have posted in this group says 24-48 hours off pred to get a valid stim result. There are situations that a stim may have to be done with pred on board, so it needs to be take into account that the result is probably lower than it is because of the pred.

Debbie

[Cyn719]

Debbie -- Pennys schedule was 5mg pred

2 -BID 5 days
2-once a day 5 days
1-once a day 5 days
1-every other day 7 days

So after she started it she got very depressed and very tired - but ate and drank alot - when we got down to 1 a day she still drank alot but the appetite decreased - but seemed to have alittle moe energy - she is on the second day of the every other day so today is a no pred day - I wish she was done with it all together - the last week drags -- I am watching carefully cause with no pred and no rimadyl she is going to have issures especially with this cold rainny weather