Vetoryl / Cushings Disease - Dear Penny has passed

[frijole]

I think this is probably normal. The cortisol that is in a dog's system with cushing's gives them a high. It gives them energy and acts as a natural pain reliever. So if a dog is older and has arthritis the cortisol from the cushing's helps mask the pain. So when you start treating cushing's you are taking away the natural pain med. Alot of us supplement cush dogs with fish oil, glucosamine chondr., etc to help treat pain that is natural with old age. Perhaps Penny could use a boost that way? I would guess that after a bit she will regain her enthusiasm for life. Kim

[Cyn719]

penny is taking dasaquin for her aches and pain but not fish oil -how much do you give of that?? Yup she is still sleeping - I guess we have to give her an adjustment period - and two weeks repeat the ACTH???

[Cyn719]

Penny is on day 3 of her 30 mg trilo - still just sleeping - still wants to be alone in basement - she just use to lay in front of computer desk now this AM I find her in front of the cabinets with her head pushed up against a garbage bucket - strange -- giving it an adjustment period - just hope her levels are not crashing?? Close eye on her for sure!!!!! Cindy

[Cyn719]

Penny still very tired - wakes up to go out and to eat - getting harder to get up - (because of the trilo working) I really hope we are treating her for the right disease - cant wait for 2 weeks to get the first ACTH test - will be interesting - Hope everyone has stayed cool today:)

[Cyn719]

hi can someone remind me of how long it takes to see the drinking slow down and the panting when starting the trilo?? I know each dog is different but approx time?? I forgot how long it took the first time - I know its to soon now but just curious Cindy

[lulusmom]

Hi Cindy,

I think you answered your own question. "Each dog is different" but in most cases, I think once the cortisol is within the therapeutic range, you will see an improvement in the drinking and peeing within two or three days. Dogs who have had PU/PD for a long time may take longer as it takes a while for the kidneys to regain the solute to concentrate the urine. This is called medullary washout. In my experience, the panting took a few months to improve.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Kim shes been on the meds for only four days so hopefully the drinking will slow down - it has slowed down a tiny bit so its a start- but yes the panting has not let up at all - her legs are really bothering her - shes been on the Dasaquin for months - but I do not have her on fish oil - do you know the dose on it?? Do they have them from pet stores or do you just use the human ones??? Thanks again - nice to be able to vent about this!!! :):D Are you a nite hawk too??? I see you posted at 1am and here I am posting at 135am!! :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I give all three of mine salmon oil - Brick and Squirt to help with joints and inflammation in those areas and Trink for her colon issues. I used to use the capsules but they are so BIG it was difficult if not impossible for them to swallow. So I was poking holes in the caps and squeezing the oil out - which is a PIA and made a mess. So I went to a liquid oil and like it much, much better. This is what I am using now -

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Only-Natural-Pet-Pure-Salmon-Oil/999060.aspx

Trink weighs about 4.8lbs and gets one full pump; Brick weighs about the same and he gets 1 1/2 pumps; Squirt weighs about 14lbs and she gets 2 full pumps. (Brick gets an extra 1/2 because I know his little rubber legs need more support.)

Another brand of liquid oil I have used is Kronch -

http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/160001.aspx

Penny may be able to take the capsules with no problem but just in case here are a few good liquid options. I just squirt the oil on their feed - kibbles and cooked. The products above will let you know how many pumps based on weight.

You are looking for the highest EPA and DHA you can find as these are what work on the inflammation. These will be listed on the labels. The capsules I used also told how many caps to give based on weight...but I looked for products designed, intended for dogs so I had that info. Do a Google search for Omega oils for dogs - you will find many available. Just compare the EPA and DHA for each product and choose the highest you can find in a form that works for you and Penny.

If Penny likes fruits, give her pineapple and papaya as treats. Pineapple contains bromelain and papaya contains papain - both are beneficial for arthritis. Something I used to do for Crys was give her the gristle from meats I cooked - especially turkey and chicken. I read a study about using gristle, cartiledge, etc. from cooked meats to aid in arthritis in dogs. The theory was that by giving them these things, it would help their own joint construction deficiencies. Whether it helped or not, Crys really loved it and I felt like I was doing something good to help her. :o Now, I didn't give her any from seasoned meats but when I boiled the birds for seasoning later or when I baked a turkey to use for Squirt's menu then Crys got the joint parts. I would pull them all off and put them in a baggie to store in the fridge for a day or so.

There are a lot of other things you can try but start slow with adding supplements so you can see how she handles each one before adding another to the mix. ;)

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie I will look into it - Penny seems to be handling the 30 mg alittle better still gets tired after taking it - moves slowly - its been just about a week so the second week will hopefully show more improvement!! Fingers and paws crossed!! thanks!!! xo Penny and Cindy:)

[Cyn719]

I am still awaiting Dr Petersons letter with his thoughts - I got an email from them today saying if she was sleepy is not right from the medication just stop it and have the vet run a full work up on her - penny has had so many work ups and when I email him tonight I asked again -- in his opinion does he believe that she truly has Cushings??? He never gave his opinion cause he said he would speak with me after the ACTH test and he never did??? --so hopefully he will send the letter and answer the email -- Penny is alittle better so I assume the ACTH test results will show that in another week (I hope) Looking for little improvements everyday:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I'm glad Dr P said to stop the Trilo. I have been a bit concerned at how she acts after a pill. The diagnosis has also been in the back of my mind. I've got to run for a bit shortly but I want to look back through your thread and see the test results for her.

So no meds today? Just watch her and keep in touch, 'k?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[frijole]

It is hard to diagnose and truly understand what is going on when you can't see what the owner is describing. There is a lot of ASSuming that has to happen. That is why I started filming my Annie's episodes. That way the doc can see firsthand what you mean when you say "lethargy" or "difficulty getting up". I would think it would really help Dr P if you could film small snippets and email them to him or put on Utube. Food for thought. Kim

[addy]

Sending moral support and hugs,

Addy

[Cyn719]

HAVING A HARD TIME WITH RESULTS TOO!! i LOOKED BACK AT 9/10 AND HER RESULT WAS 4.2 THEN SHE WENT ON TRILO THE END OF NOVEMBER 2010????

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Sorry for the delay in doing this....been busy making squash pickles! YUM!

Ok....the following is what I have pulled from your posts about the test results for Penny so far. I have to admit that it is a bit confusing -


Posted 1/18
right befor Christmas - 60 mg a day - when she had her first blood test after being on med for i think 3 weeks it was 2.4 vet said good - now yesterday 3 weeks later test again now 8.8
************************************************** ***************************
Posted on 6/30
she said her last one in March was 2.3
************************************************** ******************************
Posted on 7/7 This was her last test --

ACTH response-
Cortisol Pre 0.8
cortisol 2 0.9
************************************************** *******************************
Posted 7/8 I said to my vet cause at 2.3 and 2.8 she could barely walk bet at 7 she was better
************************************************** *****************************
Posted 7/9
Penny 9/17/10

Cortisol (3Samples)

Cortisol Pre 4.4
Cortisol 2.5
Cortisol 4.2

normal response to ACTH canine 5.5-20.0
post-lysodren 1-5

12/23/10

ACTH Response (2samples)
Cortisol Pre 1.2
Cortisol 2 2.3

MARCH 2011 results was 2.3 - they didnt give me the lab work

6/28/11

ACTH Response (2samples)
Cortisol Pre 0.8
Cortisol 2 0.9
************************************************** ***********************************
Posted 7/15
pre 3.5
post 9.6
************************************************** ***********************************
Posted 7/20
then in Jan she said we HAD to increase the medication because it would hurt her more to stay at the 8.8 - but then in Mar she was 2.3 and she was happy with that but the dog was not at her best
************************************************** **********************************
Posted 7/26
9/10 AND HER RESULT WAS 4.2
************************************************** ***************************


I didn't see an ACTH with a 8.8 or 7 post number. Do you have copies of those tests? When were they given?

The test Penny had on 9/17/10, with three results (samples), looks like either the LDDS or the HDDS. Can you look at her records and tell us which one that was?

IF I am understanding correctly, Penny's latest ACTH was around July 15th this year with a post of 9.6. Am I understanding right?

And she has been on Trilo since Jan. of this year? With problems off and on regardless of the dose?

Has Penny had an ultrasound recently? If so, can you please post the comments from that tests?

Ok, before Penny was ever tested for Cushing's, which of the following signs were you seeing in her - this is prior to any testing or treatment -

• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures
(from Kate Connick's site - http://www.kateconnick.com/library/cushingsdisease.html)

I noticed on some of her labs that her thyroid values were a bit low. Has she been checked for hypothyroidism recently?

Ok....that's enough for now, huh? ;):D If you wouldn't mind answering the questions posed above, we can go from here.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Leslie Penny had all the symptoms listed except did not have acidents in the house -- we no not have her clipped -- did not notice fragile skin and was not told anything about pancrestist - did not see any seizures and when she did finally check for cushings she said she did not test positive for diabetes -- She started her on trilo the end of November 2010 - at 60mg and was pushed up to 120mg in January after she was 8.8 -- I will look up all the other information tomorrow and post -- I did not see the test result for Jan 2011 and when I called the girl said she forgot to send it - so I am calling tomorrow to ask for a copy - and I am checking with Dr Petersons office to see if he received it also. Penny is just passing her first week on 30 mg of trilo - she seems better - more alert - but still drinkng and eating alot BUT does seem somewhat better than a week ago - still pants alot - her back leg is weak - the one that she has the old hock injury - I know when the meds are working she will feel the pain more ?? so that could be it but she will need meds for that ?? Dasaquin on going for 3 months - adding fish oil - Hope this helps and I will post tomorrow --- my aunt broke her femur so things are alittle crazy here - Thanks for all the help -- this is confusing little girl for sure!!! xo Penny and Cindy

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks, Cindy,

Was the test with three results (samples) an LDDS or HDDS?

Has she had an ultrasound recently?

Has she been checked for hypothyroidism lately?

So sorry to hear about your aunt! :eek: That has to be so painful! :( Take good care of her and yourself, just as you do Penny. I hope your aunt is "back on her feet" ;) real soon!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thank - yeah aunt is really bad - she broke the other femur 2 years ago - she has addisons disease and the med over the years is eating thru her bones - put her on foxamax and it made it worse - she smashed her face when she fell - broke nose - just a mess!! Ok Penny what are the letters you are asking about - I have the test in front of me but I dont know what that means?? She did not recently have an ultrasound - when she did it looked ok one side was slightly larger than the other ?? I think it was Kim who asked about her t4 and Dr Peterson said it was ok?? Just went outside to get her - everything I fed her at 1100 came back up!! Now I dont know if she absorbed the pill cause I put it in her food???? This is the first time this cycle that she got sick - so I dont know if it was the trilo?? But she only kept the food down like an hr and a half or so???? :confused:

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

This is just my thinking....but I wouldn't give any more Trilo for now. Penny may just be one of those pups who cannot handle this drug. You might want to talk to your vet and Dr P about it and see what they think, but I would withhold the Trilo for now.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

i did ask both vets - said to continue trilo and see how she does?? He wants to get to the two week period to retake the ACTH test - unless she keeps getting sick - said it could of been anything and may have nothing to do with the trilo -- what was it you were looking for on the test results - HDDS or LDDS?? what is that?? I have the test here - let me know what I am looking for and I will get right back to you Cindy

[frijole]

what was it you were looking for on the test results - HDDS or LDDS?? what is that?? I have the test here - let me know what I am looking for and I will get right back to you Cindy
We are trying to figure out which test you had done. Spelled out

High Dose Dex Suppression Test OR Low Dose Dex Suppression Test

Should be on there somewhere at the top or bottom. :D

[Squirt's Mom]

Sorry, Cindy! I missed your question! :o

Thanks, Kim!

Have you let the vets know how Penny acts each time she has been "off" after taking the Trilo? Are they as aware as we are of what has been happening?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

PS. Don't you just love all the continual questions? LOL I am just really trying to understand what is going on with Penny. ;)

[Cyn719]

leslie -- for pennys test on 9/17/10 is says:

TEST REQUESTED
Cortisol (3samples)
tube labeled pre
tube labeled 4H
tube labeled 8H
Cortisol Pre 4.4
Cortisol 2 2.5
Cortisol 3 4.2
INTERPRETAITON OF ACTH STIMULATION TEST
CANINE 5.5-10ug/dl


I told dr peterson everything - how she is on and off medication - asked if thyroid was ok - he said yes -- told them she got sick 2 hrs after she ate yesterday morning - said cant blame it on trilo so try again - so she ate last night and did not get sick but there was not trilo in dinner - now 10:50 am feed her breakfast with trilo so we will see what happens BUT even when she does not vomit it does seem to me like she has a upset stomach because she just lays flat on side for a few hrs after she eats and does not want to be bother or it also makes her sleepy - and not feel right ??? Waiting for your thoughts on the above test -- thanks xo Penny and Cindy

[Cyn719]

leslie - I copied exactly what the report showed - does that answer your question? If not let me not and I will call the office if I have to - Cindy:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Workers keep hitting the phone line on the place and cutting my internet connection out so don't think I am ignoring you, please.

I could be way off base here, but that still looks like either the LDDS or HDDS since it has three samples and took 8 hours to do. An ACTH has two samples and takes from 2-4 hours.

With the LDDS and HDDS, the blood is drawn before any drugs are given - sample 1. Then dexamethasone is given and a second draw is made at 4 hours - sample 2. Then a third draw is made at 8 hours - sample 3. These tests see how well a pup can suppress extra cortisol via the dexamethasone. Both of these tests are suppression tests while the ACTH is a stimulation test.

The ACTH stimulates the adrenals to see how much cortisol they are holding - the gel forces the adrenals to squeeze all the cortisol out and that is what the post number of the ACTH tells us - how much is there.

If that is the LDDS(low dose dex), Penny did lose suppression at 8 hours...indicating Cushing's. The HDDS(high dose dex) is used to help determine if it is pituitary based or adrenal based and is not often used any more tho Squirt had it done.

Was it you or Dr Peterson questioning if Penny really has Cushing's or not?


...BUT even when she does not vomit it does seem to me like she has a upset stomach because she just lays flat on side for a few hrs after she eats and does not want to be bother or it also makes her sleepy - and not feel right ???

This could be unrelated to the Trilo or Cushing's. Has she had digestive problems prior to the Cushing's diagnosis? Is she eating the same food as always? If so, you might want to call the manufacturer to see if they have changed any ingredients or formulas. They will make changes without letting consumers know so we have to take steps to find out. :rolleyes:

Has she been checked for pancreatitis since starting this behavior after eating?

Let us know how she is after her dose this morning, 'k?

How is your aunt doing?

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

:)no problem leslie - i appreciate all the information you are giving me - ok so it does look like cushings - i believe dr peterson was wondering if it was cushings but after he looked at everything he said to put her back on the trilo so I assume he felt it was cushings for sure - penny always had alittle bit of stomach issuse - at one time she was on a antibiotic (it melted in the mouth??) and she was so sick we rushed her to Ocean State on a holiday - she was passing blood and vomiting blood - they kept her for 3 days - and she would vomit like just clear water or sometime a bit yellow here and there - we put her back on the pepcid ac 20 mg - I am just questioning the dr cause I forgot if it is once or twice a day - I believe once - she has kept her food down so far today -- Aunt was moved to a very nice rehab called Epicoh - had a rod put in her femur but now has a fever - with her Addisions they have to watch her closely - as we all know!! Thanks for your concern - xo Cindy and Penny

[Cyn719]

This is the most recent email from Dr Peterson - He said he has the April work-up I have one from June so I am going to fax it to him. Still weird to me that right after she takes the trilo she gets so tired and walks so slow but at nite she is better (prob because it isnt as potent in her as it is in the AM) Plus her hock injury is getting worse - that leg is losing the ability to hold her up - but thats another issure)


Hi Cynthia,

Dr. Peterson thinks that it appears that she has Cushing's Disease. He would like to see the results of the next ACTH test and speak with Dr. Gifford. Also, without a complete work-up (the last complete routine blood panel Penny had was in April, is that correct?), he can advise Dr. Gifford how to proceed but would not be able to make a diagnosis. Especially without seeing Penny and examining her himself, he can only consult with you and Dr. Gifford and offer his opinion.

Please ask Dr. Gifford to fax the ACTH test results, and Dr. Peterson will be in touch. Thank you.

[Cyn719]

Penny is the same - has not vomited anymore - giving pepcid ac once a day - still seems tired after taking trilo for 4 hrs or so - still panting alot but I know that takes time - drinking alot but alittle less - still seems to have alittle trouble getting around - so it is just her arthritis or her levels are coming down??

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I'm glad Penny hasn't gotten sick any more - that is good!

Trilo can lower the cortisol pretty quickly in some pups and they feel kinda yuckie until they adjust to the lower, more normal, level. I can't say this is why Penny slows down after her dose, but it is food for thought.

We also know that as the cortisol is lowered, inflammatory problems that were being "treated" by the cortisol can become much more obvious, in particular arthritis.

So, it's possible what you are seeing are signs of lowering cortisol - ie, that the Trilo is doing what it is supposed to do. At this point, unless she starts getting really lethargic or starts to get sick again, we have to trust Dr P and continue with the Trilo until her next stim, when we can see what the levels are.

I know you will be so glad to have her on a dose that is right for her and for when you start to see your old girl returning. You are doing a good job of watching her and making note of things that are "off" or different. So, just keep up the good work and love on her every chance you get....'cause before long, she is gonna be giving you a run for your money! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Hi new question - Dr peterson told me to put penny back on a low dose of rimadyl so I gave her 75 mg for the past couple of days- does anyone know if that med can cause panting?? She seems to be panting more which I know can be many things - the cushings - pain -because of pennys issues with arthritis and her injured hock she does need an anti inflamatory - the dasaquin isnt helping to much and just started fish oil - I am not crazy about the rimadyl but he said she needs an anti-inflamatory med ?:confused::confused:Thanks Cindy

[Cyn719]

Hi just checking in - penny is holding her own - she is drinking less - still panting - going for ACTH on Friday - cant wait for these results!! Received another email from dr peterson just saying to send him her results and he will give his opinion of what we should do about the dosage -- keep you updated!! xoxo Cindy and Penny

[Cyn719]

QUESTION?????
when you take your dog for the ACTH do you give the trilo with food the morning of the test and test is done 4 hours later????? Cindy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

You need to give the Trilo within four hours of her test so if that is breakfast, then give it then. Unless you were told to fast, there is no need to withhold the meal before the ACTH.

Glad to hear that she hasn't had any problems since you last posted! That is good news and I look forward to seeing her results along with you! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Maya]

QUESTION?????
when you take your dog for the ACTH do you give the trilo with food the morning of the test and test is done 4 hours later????? Cindy
My vet prefers to do the ACTH test on an empty stomach, but I do still give Maya her trilo with a morsel of chicken at least 4 hours before.
Leah and Maya

[Nika'sMom]

my vet has me do the same as Leah's does, with my Nika...just enough food to get the pill down...in Nika's case it is a dollop of peanut butter...

[Cyn719]

This is exactly what the vet said -- she said the blood lab says to give on an empty stomach so the fat from the food does not effect the blood results -- the vet (my vet and Dr Petersons office said to give pills will breakfast ---- ok so I figured I will give her the pill with half her breakfast - so the lab will be happy so will the vet -- sound good to you????? Thanks!!!! Nothing is ever just cut and dry - lol lol just hope I get the results back on Saturday!! hate waiting!! :)

[jmac]

Glad to hear Penny is doing a little better! Good luck with your test!

Julie & Hannah

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

I think the vets all have different ideas. My IMS said give Zoe breakfast and her Trilostane and the first draw is done within 4-6 hours of dosing. I have seen some vet papers say do the draw 3-4 hours after dosing. We run a renal panel and check Zoe's electrolytes each time as well as doing the ACTH test.

I am grateful I can give her breakfast, she does not fast well, especially with a 40 minute car ride to the IMS:eek::eek:

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Thats exactly what they told me about the times some say 3 to 4 hrs some say 4 to 6 hrs - penny does better in the AM if she eats and takes her pepcid ac -- so I will feed her at 630 am and I will have her there at 1015 so by the time they get her going it will be 4 hrs -- thanks to all of the cush angels -- you are all there everytime I need you!!! Dont know what I would of done without all of you!!!!! -- it has been so crazy here with my aunt breaking here femur -- she is in Epoch a very nice and upbeat rehab - she is coming along slowly and then yesterday I had my 19 year old son in a 2 hr MRI (they did the whole back) he has had sharp pain in his spine for a while now -- of course waiting for results!! :rolleyes: Fingers and paws crossed!!!! xoxo to all of you!! Cindy:)

[labblab]

Cindy, here's a direct quote from Dr. Peterson's endocrinology "blog" that supports his recommendation that Penny (or any dog on trilostane) be fed a meal along with their trilostane dose prior to ACTH testing for monitoring purposes:


With trilostane, it’s extremely important to give the morning medication with food, and then start the ACTH stimulation test 3 to 4 hours later.

Fasting these dogs on the morning in which the ACTH stimulation test is scheduled should be avoided since it invalidates the test results.

When a dog ‘s food is withheld, the absorption of trilostane from the gastrointestinal tract is decreased. This leads to low circulating levels of trilostane, resulting in little to no inhibition of adrenocortical synthesis. Therefore, serum cortisol values will higher when the drug is given in a fasted state than when it is given with food.

The higher basal or ACTH-stimulated cortisol results could prompt one to unnecessarily increase the daily trilostane dose. That misjudgment may lead to drug overdosage, with the sequelae of hypoadrenocorticism and adrenal necrosis in some dogs.
It is true that certain blood tests will be skewed if a person or dog has eaten a fatty meal prior to the testing. So a vet may legitimately want a dog to be fasted prior to certain other tests. But based on Dr. Peterson's recommendation, monitoring ACTH testing for dogs taking trilostane should be based on dosing beforehand along with a meal, and NOT after a dog has been fasted. Here's a link to the source of the quote above:

http://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/03/whats-best-protocol-for-acth.html

Marianne

[Nika'sMom]

thankyou so much for this info Marianne...I will be talking to my vet about this..it was actually the vet tech that told me to fast my girl...So glad you asked this question Cindy:)

[Cyn719]

Thank you for sending the quote -- My vet and Dr Peterson did tell me food was ok in the am with pills - the vet on call was reading me the quote from the blood lab but did suggest not withholding food -- Penny will receive her pills and breakfast Friday morning before her test -- will be in touch on Sat with the results xo Cindy Thank you once again for all your concern and support!!!!:)

[Cyn719]

just a thought ---- the blood labs should not be telling the vets to have the dogs fast for the ACTH test -- all these labs should be reading the quote from Dr Peterson!! I am going to bring this to my vets attention -- hopefully the blood labs will look into this and correct their statement -- I am just glad my vet said not to fast Penny and she is on the right page with that information - and also happy to see the opinion of a specialist - Dr Peterson saying not to fast these cush dogs -- Yes please look into it Nika's Mom -- this seems really important to getting the correct results -- Dr Peterson is a specialist and has been doing this for 35 years and if he says feed the dog in the morning with the pills I will be following his advice for sure - Thanks again Marianne!!!!! xoCindy and Penny :)

[Nika'sMom]

I have sent the link to my vet of the article that Marianne posted here. My Nika isn't due for another ACTH test for a while but I wanted to get on this right away...thankyou again to you and Marianne for bringing this extremely important point to my and others attention...many hugs Lynda and Nika

[Cyn719]

Lynda - sending the link to my vet also - even though she did say to feed penny - its good information for her to pass on to the lab that she deals with - how is your doing now?? Cindy

[Nika'sMom]

Cindy..yes it is good info to pass on. I too am hoping that my vet shares the info with her staff ( actually I am sure that she will) My Nika is doing alright..thankyou for asking. I find that I am always looking for "something" but from what I read here I see that isn't too unusual, and like all of us, we only want the best for our furkids...hugs to you and your Penny

[Cyn719]

Lynda I read of few of your posts quickly and I read you were talking about thuderstorms - my aunt bought the thunder shirt for her pug and said she really saw a difference during the last storm - she said she also used the dryer sheet method and that worked well also - just thougt I would pass it on!!:):)xo Cindy and Penny

[Nika'sMom]

thanks Cindy..I am hearing more and more about the thundershirt. I dont believe that my Nika would be happy with it because of the way she is about things touching her too much, but I am going to get one for my other girl who is also petrified of thunderstorms ( and her name is Storm :o)...I am anxious to hear about Penny's test results soon...hope all is well...hugs Lynda and Nika

[jmac]

Just so you know, if you look for a coupon online for the thundershirt, you may be able to get free shipping. I got one for my dog, Izzy, about a month ago and the coupon looked like it had been available for a while.

Good luck! :D

Julie & Hannah (& Izzy)

[Cyn719]

Has anyone heard of rubbing the dog with a dryer sheet before a thunder storm??? I heard from a few people that it really works????? Pennys test may not be back till tuesday because they are closed Monday and said because of summer hours with the lab it may not be back tomorrow?? We will see!! xoxo Cindy

[Cyn719]

Thanks Lynda I pray it is good and we dont have to increase the medication - she seems ok with the 30 mg of the trilo by 60 mg really did her in ??? Waiting as always!!! lol but got to keep smiling!!!:):)

[addy]

I hope you get good news Tuesday!!!!

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

ATTENTION ALL CUSH ANGELS - VERY CONFUSED AGAIN!! Ok just received pennys results

Pre .8
post 2.8

vet on call said being on meds they look for 1-1/2 to 9 fpr pre and post

Penny has been on 30 mg of trilo for 2 weeks -- so she told me to stop trilo for weekend until Dr Peterson is notified - I do not understand this at all ??? Any input would be helpful!!! Thank you all once again xoxo Cindy and Penny:confused::confused:

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I think your vet is a bit confused....still. The pre number has no real bearing; it can be affected by any number of things including stress from the vet office. The POST number is the one that counts and Penny's is in the range for a Trilo pup so I think I would ignore your vet and continue as you have been with Penny's med.

I have been trying to open the flow chart for treatment and monitoring for you but for some reason my computer is giving it back in gibberish today. :rolleyes: Here is the link to the Helpful Resource file, tho, so maybe you can open the chart. Print that out and take it to your vet and stand there while she reads if needed....it tells exactly what numbers to look for when and what they mean in terms of continuing/discontinuing Trilo.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

Scroll down the page and you will see the link for Treatment and Monitoring Flowchart.

Some of our Trilo moms and dads may have a different take on this but I think your vet is just confused....

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Leslie - thank you I will check out the links - It was not my vet I talked to - my vet is on vacation - It was an on call vet - so she may have it confused?? she was reading something to me that said pre and post lysodren(?spelling) should be 1.5 - 9 pre and post but like I said she was just a vet covering -- so you think I should just continue through weekend until Dr Peterson and my vet look it over and discuss it?? ok will do and I will go to those links --- thanks so much for the research!!!! xo Cindy and Penny

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Dr. Peterson's chart for test results can be found here:

http://animalhospitalofmtpocono.com/NEPVMA/docs/1a%20Vetoryl,%20Another%20Choice%20.pdf

His chart indicates Penny should continue at present dose and it does not address the pre reading.

Your vet may be worried she will continue to drift downward and go below 2.

Hugs,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Ah HA! If she is thinking Lysodren and looking at Trilo results, then yes she is quite confused! :p The post numbers for Lyso are different that those for Trilo so they cannot be compared....post results with Trilo can run quite a bit higher than those for Lyso. However, a post of 2.8 is good for either drug so I still say she is confused. ;) And I would still ignore the direction to stop the Trilo. :D

[Cyn719]

I looked at the link - so yes you dont stop the meds unless the post is below 1.45 -- wow penny is on a low does for her weight 82 lbs - she takes a does for a small dog -- no wonder why 120 mg almost killed her!!!! I feel right now she is going to have to be watched very closely because July 15 her post was 9.6 and she has only been on meds 2 weeks and she is at 2.8 so we have to make sure she stays at that and not drop to low like she did before. Confusing little girl for sure!!! gotta love her!!! shes the best!!!! :):) xo Cindy and Penny

[Cyn719]

Yes you are right!!!! She did say the lab report gave her the results for the Lysodren and not the trilo!!!!! but since she was no sure of this she thought stopping was safe till I spoke to my vet and Dr Peterson -- but looking at the link I see what you are saying -- she is safe for now

[Cyn719]

Addy thank you for Dr Petersons link - I just read it - I will keep her at the 30 mg and he will see her report on Monday - you are right -- being the on call vet while my vet was away she probably didnt want it to drop over the weekend especially what already happened to Penny -- this little girl just does not listen -- yesterday she felt good so she saw her friend the squirrel and decided to chase him and of course as she made a corner she wiped out!!! Yup landed on her right side hip and back leg - the bad one with the hock injury - so now she really cant use that leg and she swelled up - nice lump right above her paw!! OMG she is a handful - gave her a half tramadol and I will give her a whole one at bedtime!! xo Cindy and Penny

[Cyn719]

quick question - Penny wiped out and fell yesterday onto her bad hip and bad leg - giving tramadol - but she is alittle scraped up - which I just noticed - in between her toes are raw - when she slid across the cement her toes must of got caught !!! Any suggestions on what I can put on it?? It must be raw and looks like it burns!!! When I called the vet they would not give me info on the phone unless I take her in - 150 to walk through the door!! Thanks again!! xoxo Cindy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Unless she is bleeding freely, I would just make sure the area is clean and let nature do it's job. Do NOT use hydrogen peroxide to clean....I learned that using that actually damages the tissue. Hydrogen peroxide used to be the first thing I would grab for humans and animals! :rolleyes:

If the area starts oozing or won't heal over, then you probably need to take her in to make sure she doesn't have an infection. If an infection sets in, the area will have a foul smell.

Our vets in TN gave me some stuff to clean wounds with when I had Crys because she was always getting torn up. :rolleyes: I can't remember the names, tho. :o One is a blue, lightly sudsy liquid with gauze-like squares for wiping. This is used first to clean the area. The other is a brownish, very thick liquid/thin gel that is used after cleaning in areas that are difficult to heal because of location or other reason - like creases in ears. I will research tomorrow and see if I can find the names. Your vet may be willing to give or sell you some, if they have it...or it may be available online.

For tonite, I would just make sure there is no debris, that it is clean and as exposed to the air as possible. Watch it and if it isn't healing, then see her vet. ;)

Our babies just don't understand the risks they take sometimes, especially with injuries that need protecting and rest...chasing critters is NOT on the list of things to do for a hock injury! :rolleyes::p

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

thanks leslie I cleaned it for now and watching it - someone said neosporien or cortaid but I didnt because I am not sure -- is the cream you are talking about Vetalog?? My brother has that for his dog for hot spots between the dogs toes ?? Cindy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I pulled off Crys' label, which was unreadable, and underneath I can barely read "Trypzymen Liquid"....at least I think that's what it says. ;) This is the one that is thick and for hard to heal areas.

The scrubby stuff I haven't been able to find. Dr C just poured some in a butter bowl, added the pads, and gave it to me that way. She said as long as it didn't dry out, it remained good. I remember the large bottle she poured from and it was a pretty, light blue color. I played with our color palette above but that shade of blue isn't there. She told me it was a gentle scrubbing cleanser for wounds.

I hope Penny is doing well today and there are no more incidents for a while!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Cindy,

Just use some Betadine shampoo for veterinary use to clean the wound. Other then that, it's best left alone. The more we put on it, the more dogs will start to lick, risking things getting worse instead of better. Just a good clean with Betadine shampoo and thats it. Of course keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't get infected. I always keep a bottle of Betadine shampoo in the house, usefull for many things on both dogs and humans ;)

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

Saski omg your dog is adorable!! what kind of dog is it? toooo cute!!!!!! Thanks for the adivice!!! Cindy:)

[Cyn719]

Hi Kim have you looked at Pennys last ACTH test results?? Just wanted your input since you have been following Penny from the beginning:) Thanks Cindy

[Cyn719]

Marianne you have been also following along with Penny - do you have any input also?? Reading what all the others have sent me is that I should leave her on the 30 mg for the weekend - the pre test isnt what you go by --- Thanks again!! Cindy:)

[labblab]

Hi Cindy,

I agree with the others that it seems fine to leave Penny on the 30 mg. of trilostane. Her ACTH "post" result is right in the middle of the desired therapeutic range, so I think you are doing just fine. :)

Marianne

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Cindy :)

I assume you mean the dog in my avatar? That's my Boncuk, the one who brought me here, many many years ago :) He was a Lagotto Romagnolo (mix) who I rescued from Istanbul, Turkey (I am in The Netherlands) He passed away almost 5.5 years ago but I never could leave all the wonderful people here :) So, after more then 6 years on this board, I'm part of the furniture here ;) These days I have Yunah, my faithful and loyal service dog of over 4 years, a black Lab/Border Collie/Frisian Stabij mix :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

If you want to see a truly amazing pup and an incredible relationship, go check out Yunah's thread in Everything Else. Saskia posts videos of Yunah often and she will blow your mind! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Sasaki Wow your service dog is amazing - so were your other dogs - you can see how much love was there for each of them -- I was reading through your olders posts and see you have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrone - yesterday was the first time I heard about that - my 19 year old son is a life guard/instructor at a indoor pool in our town and was telling me about a woman and her service dog he met at the pool and then today I read about you - also I read one of the dogs had a hock injury - a tear - thats what Penny has also besides her Cushings and she also had both her knees repaired - the hock injury happened after both knees were done - they didnt want to operate - said it was to much for her - she walks up on her toes because of it - i feel so bad for her - its really weak - did you do anything for that injury? So nice talking with you - I just showed my since your video - beautiful relationship you to have - the woman at the pool has a small black lab named maggy - xo Penny and Cindy USA

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie for that infor - I checked it out!! Amazing for sure!!!!:):D

[Cyn719]

:mad::confused::( I really need all of you right now cause I am really upset and as usual confussed!!! Well I should not be confussed cause here it is -- Dr Peterson called my vet -- he believes she has adreanal narcrosis from too much medication!!! I am so upset - I should of had her at a specialist from the beginning - I know that now and its to late!! He is putting her on 10 mg of trilo 2xs a day and a retest in 2 to 4 weeks --- this is not good I know that -- so all we were doing was slowly killing her! The damage is done now -- having a really hard time with this.:( Cindy

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

I know that we can get valuable information from well-known professionals in this field, but they are not God, and they don't have all of the answers, and they don't know everything.

Take a deep breath, and take time to collect your thoughts. Get an appointment with an IMS experienced in treating cushings with Vetoryl/Trilostane. Have the IMS do testing to see exactly what is going on.

I just went back to check Penny's weight, and I just wanted to add that Corky is 17.5 pounds and is on 72mg of Trilo TID.

[addy]

I don't blame you for being confused and I think Terri is right about finding a specialist in your area who really knows this disease and can examine and see your dog. I consulted with Dr. Peterson via long distance telephone only to establish if he thought Zoe could use Trilostane and not Lyosdren. After that initial call, I have worked with my IMS.

How is Penny today? I have read some dogs that start out on too big of a dose of Trilostane can get super sensitive to the drug and end up needing only a small dose.

I don't understand the adrenal narcrosis diagnosis and hopefully someone else will come by to explain why Penny would still get Trilostane if she indeed has that. :confused::confused::confused:

I am as confused as you are.:(:(:(:(

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

I believe that he came to that conclusion because at a low does of trilo 30 mg for an 82 lb dog she only had a pre of .8 - and a post of 2.8 from 9.6 two weeks ago. ?? Cindy

[labblab]

Cindy, I really wish that Dr. Peterson would have spoken with you directly, because I'm betting there has been some miscommunication and you are worrying unnecessarily. If Penny was truly currently suffering from dangerous adrenal necrosis, I cannot imagine that Dr. Peterson would continue to give her trilostane. Instead, it merely sounds as though he wants to tweak her dosage a bit right now. Maybe what he said was that he wants to make sure to AVOID adrenal necrosis by lowering her dose somewhat?? Who knows? But if he was genuinely concerned that the trilostane did, or is now, causing any permanent damage -- I cannot believe that he would be continuing to dose her. Is there any way in which you can contact him directly to clear up this misunderstanding?

Marianne

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I have been following your thread but have no knowledge just wanted to offer some support and hope that Marianne is right and this is a miscommunication

Judi

[Cyn719]

I sent a email to Dr Peterson to receive a letter with his thoughts and I got an email saying because he spoke with my vet a letter was not necessary ?? I have been waiting for a letter forever!! now he wont send it!! I sent another letter asking does she have adrenal necrosis or may have adrenal necrosis - who knows if he will answer?? :(

[littleone1]

Cindy, just an FYI. After Corky was on 20mg of Trilo for only 10 days, his post cortisol level went down to 2.1 from above 20. It was in the mid 20's. Corky has had pre stims below 1.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Everyone - thanks Terri for those results - the vet said he wants the pre above 1 and the post above 2 - hope he answers his email say if he thinks it is adrenal necrosis or it is?? xo cindy:)

[Cyn719]

For whatever reason Dr Peterson feels because he spoke to my vet he does not have to send me a letter or speak with me?? I said I want to know if he feels it could be adrenal necrosis or it is adrenal necrosis -- I am the third person in this and words can be changed -- I am hearing this from vet who over dosed her -- I want to hear it from him!!:mad:

[Cyn719]

He is not going to answer so tomorrow I will start her on the lower dose and recheck again in 2 to 4 weeks - prob 2 since I be be scared to let her go longer -- Dr Peterson or my vet would not go into what this is or anything - I feel like since he talked to her he now has this Dr to Dr thing going on and does not want to say anything against her - uggggg!!!! Well I have alot of questions that will be asked when I get there to pick up her pills - DOES ANYONE GIVE THE MEDICATION 2XS A DAY LIKE HE TOLD ME TO?? Thanks again!!! xo Cindy and Penny

[addy]

Hopefully someone will stop by who does 2x a day dosing. We were considering it for Zoe last time around.

Are you wondering about the timing? My concern will be if there is any difference in how the stim is then done and if so will your vet know?

I have been taking Zoe now every two weeks for an ACTH test since we started down this Trilostane road. Wednesday will be our fourth stim. The IMS always gives Zoe a physical exam with each visit as well as checking electrolytes, renal values, serum chem test.

Dr. Peterson's chart prefaces that those readings listed must be taken into account with the physical exam of the dog and symptoms.

I hope your vet is doing this as well. I just worry, call me Mrs. Worry wort. Because Dr. Peterson cannot see or examine your dog and has to go by whatever your vet says.

I don't mean to scare you or rile you up, you have been through enough today:(:(

Hugs and love and support,
Addy

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

could you send Dr Peterson a very blunt email stating what you've said here?

You are worried because you are hearing second hand from a vet who overdosed your dog initially. You understand professional courtesy and that they are speaking doctor to doctor but you just want the best possible results for your dog.

something like that? or did you already try that?

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

Corky was on twice daily dosing for quite awhile, and then was switched to three times daily dosing. He still had his stim tests done 4-6 hours after his morning dose, and he also had a full chemistry blood panel done. As long as his dosage didn't have to be adjusted, he didn't have to have a stim test done for three months unless there were symptoms that started to surface. If the dosage had to be adjusted, then he had to have a stim test after 30 days. I hope this helps.

[Cyn719]

I sent Dr Peterson a couple of emails saying I am getting this second hand and I wanted to hear this from him - but response was talk to my vet - I asked for a letter he said no need he spoke to my vet - so I am questioning my vet tomorrow and one I dont know I am calling Dr Peterson and demanding to speak to him or I want this in writing - I no nothing about adrenal necrosis - what i believe is Penny was overdosed with trilo - her adrenal glands are damaged and hes trying a low low dose with her since she has they typical symptoms of panting and drinking lots and lots of water and the ATCH test post when she was off meds was 9.6 - my vet does look her over when she is there - but does not to the blood profile each time - I will look into it - That is a good question - how do they do the stem if you are doing the meds 2xs a day?? Writing that question down also - Thank you for all of your help - thoughts - and questions -- it really is a huge help!!!!! xo Penny

[Cyn719]

Terri thank you I was posting at the same time - so that answers my question - she would just have the test done after the morning trilo like she does now -- ok thats good - so how is the little one doing now??? Hope well - - mine just seems very tired but she is 11.5 and does have a bad leg - xo Cindy and Penny:)

[frijole]

Forgive me if I missed something..l don't have time right now to go back and get caught up. Cindy, I can't help with the dosing because I used lysodren but I'd like to comment on Dr P and your vet... its called veterinary courtesy and as much as it is a pain.. the problem is that you stuck with a vet that didn't know what they were doing. You went to Dr P to give you clarity but the problem is that you didn't switch to another regular vet. If you had then Dr P would be relaying information onto your 'partner' in this. But as it stands he is relaying info on to someone you do not trust.

Maybe someone else that has used Dr P as a consultant can share their experiences but it is typical for the hired specialist to work with the local vet. The problem is you want direct communication and he probably doesnt want to throw your vet under the bus.

While Dr P can hold this vet's hands indefinitely I think it would be a better use of your resources if you looked at finding someone who could help you LONG TERM locally. I would email Dr P and come right out and tell him the reason you hired him is because you cannot trust the local vet and that you would like to make a switch. Heck, ask if he has any colleagues he recommends that live within your area.

When your dog went below 1.0 on the acth test it overdosed. What he is doing is tweaking the dosage to see what amount works best with your dogs weakened adrenal glands. I find it hard to believe he would be continuing with the drug if he felt the adrenal glands were compromised. :confused:

My point is you cannot rely on a specialist that is not standing beside your dog to direct a vet that is inexperienced and that you dont trust. You need to find someone you can trust. That way you can eventually just work with that vet once Dr P has worked his magic. Does this make sense? Kim

[Nika'sMom]

Hey Cindy..I just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you and I sure hope you get some straight answers soon. It sounds so very frustrating what you are having to go through...sending many hugs to you and your Penny, Lynda and Nika:)

[littleone1]

I'm glad I was able to help, Cindy.

You might also consider contacting Dr. Tim Allen. He is an IMS at Dechra. Many of us have been in contact with him through e-mails and on the phone. He has always been very helpful for Corky and me. His e-mail address is tim.allen@dechra.com, and his phone number is 785-979-0227.

Corky is doing pretty good. He took his last antibiotic today, after being on three different ones for 2 months. He goes in for his urine tests on Wed. He still enjoys his walks, even though his hind legs are really bothering him. He tries to go fast, but instead of running, he hops.

[Cyn719]

Thanks so much Lynda - yes it is so frustrating -- thanks for the hugs!!!! Terri - I am going to send an email to Dr Allen to get another opinion - right now I need all the info I can get!!! Thank you!! The same with Penny - she wants to run - and she did!! Only to wipe out scrape her leg and toes and land on her bad leg and hip!!!!! Now that on top of this!!!! MY WORRY tonite is she has been sluggish for a couple of days now so is it the pain from the fall or the meds so all these questions tomorrow before I start her new dose of medication -- I understand Kim - I am asking the same question - if he feels its adrenal necrosis why is he just lowering the dose of medication and not stopping it??? And I understand why he is talking to my vet but from day one he promised to call me back and send be a detailed letter --- Yes I have alot of questions in the AM and my mom is going for laser surgery in the AM skin cancer on nose - I have a call coming in from orthopedic surgeon - my 19 yr old son had mild degenerative disc in lower back - my aunt with broken femur in rehab - hands are full - trying to keep it all together - Thanks for all the support!!! You have no idea how much it helps!!!!!! xoxo Cindy & Penny:)

[Cyn719]

Vets in the AM Penny is not right - so so tired!! just laying there - doesnt want to get up - will withhold trilo in AM - will watch her closely- dont no if i need to give pred - test was only on thurs - ? would numbers drop so quickly?? Also questioning bad fall she took the other day - is she being still from that - found a small lump just above her paw hind leg - ? from the fall - What if I give her the pred and she does not need it?? Here we go again!! And Dr Peterson said to put her back on Rimadyl - so what happens if I need to give the pred - they dont go together?? :confused: as always Cindy

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Ciny,

I'm so sorry to read about everything going on with Penny at the moment. I am by no means a Cushings expert, my experience with the disease was short and Cukie's case was not a "simple" case (if there's such a thing) but rather quite complicated by all sorts of other problems. But if I had to make a choice between giving my dog Rimadyl so she wouldn't have (much) pain or giving her Prednison tp prevent her (possibly) from crashing, I would go for the Prednison without a doubt. Eventhough pain is uncomfortable ad not nice to have, it's not lifethreatening.

After the results on Thursday, did Penny get more Vetoryl? Cause if her results were that low on Thursday, the numbers could have dropped more if she was given more Vetroyl since then...

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

sasaki thanks for responding yes you are alot of help you gace me a thought yes her levels were low and she continued trilo at 30mg since thurs maybe they did drop again ok i will watch her closely and give pred if she gets worse if not I will be on phone in am to see what to do Penny is a confusing dog also she has 3 thick files at the vet and 2 files at the orthopedic Thank you for responding I was going to say glad you were up cause its 2am but what time is it there?? I am a night hawk!!! Usually up till 2 - tonite will be an all nighter - well husband said he will stay up but hes a fire fighter/resuce and he just did 5 shifts so hes exhausted so I will take this one!!! Appreciate the help xoxo Cindy and Penny:)

[Cyn719]

Terri - Wow I am impressed!! I emailed Dr Allen this AM and he got back to me in an email with a few answers saying if she has a 2.8 ACTH she cannot have adreanl necrosis - well why couldnt Dr Peterson just tell me that - my vet is getting questioned when I pick up Pennys pills - did he say she may have or has is my question?? This is why I did not want to be the third party!! Dr Allen asked what time is good to call him - I answered and waiting for him to tell me when to call - I prob get more out of him in one phone call!! Thank you again and I will let you know how I make out -- Oh Penny did eat breakfast - was outside for awhile - but still seems tired - may be her leg and just wants to lay down - so when they call to tell me pills are in I will see how she is and maybe take her for a quick check!! xoxo Cindy & Penny:)

[addy]

I am so glad you spoke to Dr. Allen and he was able to clarify things for you. I think it is important to remember that the "numbers" do not always tell the whole story and what may be a "right" number for one dog, may not be for the next. Physical state and symptoms and history play such a big part. "Know thy dog" and having a trusted vet can take us a long way in this sometimes confusing journey.

I hope the confuson goes away for you.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

I hear you Addy - he answered a few question and we are going to speak on the phone shortly - Penny is starting the new meds today 10mg am which she missed pills were not in so she will do the other 10 mg at dinner - vet said just skip the am one -- I am taking her tomorrow for a followup (vet is in surgery today) want to give her a once over - check out her leg and hip - I still find a drop of blood here and there from her scrapes - she just seems so tired - but with this little old lady it could be age - trilo - aches and pains?? Thanks again for being there!!! xoxo Cindy and Penny

[Cyn719]

Moms done with laser surgery - just had to take one layer of skin - thats one thing off my mind!!!:):):)

[Cyn719]

Terri Thanks again for putting in contact with Dr Allen!!! Ok everyone this is what he said (he was soooo nice)

First of all Penny should of not been put from 60 mg to 120 mg in Jan when she went to 8.8 -- she should of been restested in 2 weeks or start her with 10 mg more - need to go slowly with this medication - as you all have said --- this of course did her in -- now he agrees on the 10 mg 2xs a day but feels the drinking may increase and if it does we can try 20 mg in the am and 10 in the pm - but we will worry about that later - right now I need to find out why penny is so tired - age - pain - trilo ?? so check up tomorrow -- as far as the adrenal necrosis he said he did not think so but then I told him what my vet said (and Dr Peterson) that the reason it may be that is because she is requiring such a small does of the trilo now so her glands may be damaged and not producing the correct levels?? Its like time will tell - I pray they are not damaged!!!!!!!! :(:(:( So that is where we are at?? any thoughts???? He was great to talk to and I understood everything he said - and it was free!!! Dr Peterson charged $250 and he really didnt do much more for me - I do not regret calling him its just he has me frustrated that he would not call me back and would not write me a letter - thanks again everyone for being there for us!!!!!!! :) xoxo Cindy & Penny

[Cyn719]

Just got pennys report from her last ACTH test and at the bottom where it gives the range it for the first time gives a range for trilo - all her other reports only gave the range for lysdren - the lab is Antech in NY -- sooo it says post trilo -- pre and post cotisol levels between 1.5 - 9.1 indicate normal cortisol -- ok just what Dr Allen said at 8.8 Penny should of been left alone at 60 mg and retested or put on 10 mgs more and retested -- OMG I am so upset - I blame myself for not finding all this out before!!! Seeing it on paper really made me sick!!! :mad: Cindy

[Cyn719]

**normal cortisol should read optimal cortisol Sorry:o

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

You're very welcome. I'm glad you talked to Dr. Allen. He has always been so helpful. I'm glad you were able to get good feedback from him. I hope this set your mind at ease a little.

I'm glad everything went well with your mom.

Take care, and try to relax a little. Take it one step at a time.

[Cyn719]

In addition to all this Penny seems to have a constipation problem - I just saw her trying to go and it was kind of stuck there - sorry dont know what other way to put it :o - and she was walking in that crouched position trying to get it out - soooo what do you have for a good remedy?? The on call vet said canned pumpkin but Penny said noooooo!!!!!!:eek: Maybe this is why she has been so mush!? Cindy

[frijole]

Did you try the pumpkin? IT works great for diarrhea too. Key is not to give too much. Only about a tsp per meal. Get the plain kind without the spices of course.

[Harley PoMMom]

Metamucil can be given to a dog with constipation. Here is a link about it: http://www.vetinfo.com/metamucil-for-dogs-with-diarrhea.html

[Cyn719]

She turned her nose up to th pumpkin but I will try again in the am in her breakfast - she does have an appt also tomorrow for a once over - did anyones dog have constipation problems from the trilo of now I am thinking the tramadol -- thanks!!! xoxo Cindy & Penny

[Cyn719]

question if I want to check in to see how one of your dogs are doing how do I find that ? I am not to good at getting around on the forum except for posting about Penny - It took me awhile to realize there were private messages and you could become friends with each other - I think it has to do with search or thread??? :o thanks for the help!!:) Cindy

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

Corky never had that problem from the Trilo, and he's been taking it for 22 months. It could have been a one time issue. Penny might be stressed, as she senses your distress. Stress does do strange things. Hopefully the next time she does her business, everything will be back to normal.

[littleone1]

You can click on community, click on members list, and then click on the letter where the member would be found, and find the member you are looking for. You can also click on search and type in the member's user name you are looking for, and click on find threads started by that member.

[frijole]

If you want to check on other people's threads just click on the link above "Canine cushing's Question and Discussions" and then select a thread to read. Kim

[zoesmom]

Hi Cindy -

Haven't been on in awhile and just browsing thru your thread, trying to catch up on Penny. So sorry things haven't been going well for you and her. I think the low low dose is a good idea for now. I think the only way you'd know for sure if there was adrenal necrosis is thru an abdominal u/s, but I doubt that would change the course of tx at this point. Glad you talked to Dr. Allen.

As for the constipation, I don't know how her weight is doing, but the low-fat dog foods (calorie-reduced/diet) tend to have more added fiber in them. Same for many of the senior formulas, I think? Maybe mixing in a little of that kind would help. If it's just a one-time thing and not an ongoing problem, maybe you could throw in a few baby carrots and some unsalted canned green beans to her diet. I give those to Cooky as treats since she needed to lose a few pounds. Both my dogs love both things. The pumpkin would really be the best but sounds like it's a no-go???? I assume you tried the plain canned pumpkin? Not the pumpkin pie mix stuff with spices? Also sometimes my dogs act constipated and when I have a look (YUCK), I see that it's grass causing the problem (stuck part way out . . . DOUBLE YUCK). That requires a doggy bag to help them be rid of it! Hope that's not too graphic but I'm sure it is :p:eek::o Sue

[Cyn719]

Hi Sue - Nice to have you back!!!! :) - thanks so much for checking in on Penny - yeah this is a roller coaster ride with her for sure!! She did finally eat a tea of plain canned pumpkin in her food this am and I used canned senior wet food - she seems better - shes just very tired and is walking alittle funny but she did have that bad fall and will not stop panting - water intake is alot better - hope it stays that way since we lowered the trilo mg - hate to see her panting like this - so its very hard to know what her issure is the fall - the arthritis - the trilo - just keeping a very close eye on her for sure - how are things going on your end? xoxo Cindy & Penny

[Cyn719]

Penny is drinking way less water which is good - but is to little not good either? I forgot how much they should drink a day - shes eating fine - had dinner with alittle pumpkin - I know its one teaspoon but I didnt know if that was twice a day - so I gave it to her - figured it wouldnt hurt - she went today - better! :) She just struggles with thoses back legs!! Calling ortho tomorrow for appt - he was on vacation - My brother just picked up his dog - the lump was cancer - took a lymph node from knee to see if it spread - but lungs are clean! :)

[littleone1]

Hi Cindy,

I'm glad to near that Penny is doing better today. I forget the exact amount of water per pound, but at Corky's weight, 1 1/2 to 2 cups of water a day is a good amount for him.

I hope your brother's dog will be okay.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Terri - I saw a website also that said 1oz per lb but 80 oz seems like alot? :eek:!!

[Cyn719]

Kim an Sue Thanks for suggesting the pumpkin!! It worked!! Wow you guys are the best!!!!!!

xoxo Cindy & Penny:)

[Cyn719]

First time I saw Penny have one of those episodes in a long time!! :eek: I am surprised she had one being since she is on such a low does of trilo unless the dose doesnt matter its just the trilo itself or its not the medication at all?? I will never get to video it cause its over in seconds! Just jerks her head back blinks eyes really fast and mouth qivers alittle - I did mention it to Dr Allen he said he could be the medication - but he wanted me to describe it cause they want to make note of all side effects Cindy

[Cyn719]

Pumpkin worked !!!!! but now she has the opposite problem!!! So now I guess I should give her rice and hamburger??? This poor little baby!!!

xo Cindy

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

How bad is it? Pumpkin actually works for both. I have found for Zoe if it is really bad, withholding all food for 12 hours and then feeding half the amount helps. I usually start there for my Zoe.

Really bad in my book is defined as watery squirty poo frequently.

I also am conservative so for my Zoe I would withhold her trilostane for the day if it was really bad. But that is me and my pup.

Has she had loose stools before? When and how often?

Hugs,
addy

[Cyn719]

Its lose but not watery - I did give her the rice and burger even though she really doesnt like burgers?? Shes laying low today and does not have the need to go out so I guess its getting better but as soon as she does I will check it - I have to face it something is really wrong - going to the vet tomorrow - Penny just lays on her side - groans alot - again very stiff when she walks - panting all the time - the only thing is she doesnt drink alot at all - last night she was sleeping on the floor and me an my son heard banging - we went to he and she was running in her sleep but banging her legs hard - I thought it was a seizure but I pet her and woke her and she stopped so I guess not - I know what a real grand mal sezuire looks like - my golden had a brain tumor - but she is not right at all - Penny has so many issure I never know if it is the trilo or not - now I am wondering if her levels are dropping again?? As of 8/6 pre 0.8 post 2.8 - this disease is so confusing!:(

[addy]

I know it is so darn confusing. I am going through being confused with Zoe this weekend.:confused::confused::confused:

All I can tell you is the best advice my specialist gave me was "when in doubt, withhold the pill." I live and breathe that.


Hope you get answers tomorrow.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Whats going on with addy this weekend?? These fury little ones are keeping us on our toes!! Pennys stool is back to normal as of right now - but all day she just slept - no drinking - no asking for treats - no going out until now - and her tail is between her legs - she just looks like an exhausted dog and she wants to be alone - soooo I guess this is my clue to withhold her trilo at dinner?? :confused:

[Cyn719]

Sorry Addy I meant to say Zoe:o:o Penny has me in such a confused state I cant think straight!!

[Cyn719]

NEED ADVICE!! What should I do - Penny is eating AM and PM she is drinking but less than I think she should - goes out to the bathroom - but she just sleeps all the time - she wants to be alone in more of a quiet space - she is not due for her ACTH until next Mon - Tues which will be 14 days and Dr Peterson said check it in 2 to 4 weeks - (which I was planning on 2 weeks) but is she tired from the meds? Is is a thyroid problem?? Is it she really has adrenal necrosis??? What would you do at this point? I tried to email Dr Allen a few times - no response - another member I forgot who I was posting said she couldnt get a response from him neither - maybe I will call him -- Any thoughts??:confused:

[Keiko's Mom]

Do you have toll free number? 1-866-933-2472. Go ahead and call and get some answers. Good luck.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

There is a simple test you can do to see if Penny is hydrated enough. It is called the "tent test". On her belly, gently pull some of the skin down into a tent shape then let it go. If it returns to normal fairly quickly, she is plenty hydrated which means she is drinking enough. If the tent shape remains, then she is dehydrated and is not drinking enough.

Two things to bear in mind about drinking - 1) as her cortisol lowers she will drink less and 2) different foods have different amounts of moisture in them; the lower the moisture in the food they are eating, the more they will drink.

If she is eating kibble (dry food) and the tent shape doesn't return to normal, you can add water to her food. If she balks at plain water, boil a chicken or some beef, drain the broth off and put it in the fridge for a while to let the fat congeal on top. When it is congealed, remove the fat and use the left over liquid on her food. It will have enough flavor in it to entice her to eat without having all the fats.

Hope this helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thank you I was looking for the number - He told me in the past to call him 2:15 our time to 6:15 so I will call soon - the tent test seemed ok she just sleeps and sleeps -- could her levels of dropped again?? It was 2.8 a week ago just hope its not that and I still have the question of adrenal necrosis in mind since my vet origianlly overdosed her - if only they could talk!! Thank you for your quick response - I am cooking her chicken for the broth - I will update when I talk to Dr Allen ------

[Cyn719]

I am thinking now alot has to do with her hind leg - hock injury a few years ago - they put it in a soft cast for weeks - did not help - walked on her toes for years since it healed short and could not elongate - they said the operation needed for that was to much for her - not it looks like she cant put any weight on that leg she lays down to eat drink eat treats etc - so that may be the sleeping alot - reading everyones posts you all mention leg and muscle weakness it that the disease of the trilo -- so that leg is already weak and getting worse! Just another thought ---

[Cyn719]

Did not hear from Dr Allen - Going to the vet at 4:00 tomorrow - I do notice her right hine leg had so strength in it (hock injury) front right leg when she is standing her paw looks like a hand its flat not roundish like a paw?? her left side seems fine -- Eating very good - drinking ok - I guess shes getting enough - tent test seemed fine -- but after she takes a trilo she gets soooo tired - I will let you know how tomorrows appointment goes --

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Good luck at the vet today. You are doing a good job with Penny. I wanted to let you know that.:):)

I hope it is not that her cortisol is too low again and it is something else bothering her. WHen multiple health issues are going on it is so confusing. Hang in there.

Hugs,
Addy

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy...I am thinking of you today and hoping that your vet appointment goes well and you get some answers about your Penny. Many hugs coming your way,
Lynda and Nika :)

[Cyn719]

THANK YOU ADDY AND LYNDA SO MUCH FOR YOUR THOUGHTS!!!!!! We are going at 4 wish it was earlier but taking my son for PT - stopping to see Aunt and then Penny - I have to say this AM she was better - not great but better - she went out barked at people - walked around more - ate -which is usually never a problem for her - but I notice after the morning pill is when she goes sluggish and same at night so it could be trilo - but she does have serious issues with her leg also - I will post later on when I get home --- :)

[addy]

Hey Cindy,

I finally heard back from Dr. Allen today!!!!!! Maybe he will answer you:D:D:D

hugs,
Addy

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy...still thinking about you today and your appointment. I have to leave for work shortly but I will be back here when I get home to see how everything went. Sending prayers that all goes well...many hugs Lynda and Nika

[Cyn719]

Hi Lynda and Addy (and friends) Penny went to the vet - ok visit - hearing loss and sight loss - age probably she is 11.5 - leg is weak where hock injury was - may be alittle worse from fall - you can clearly see she does not want to sit or stand so there is weakness - she was bleeding alittle in offce from the fall which was a bit ago but its right on her like ankle just sink over bone so it wont heal - plus shes a cush pup and they dont heal well so she said I can put alittle anitbac cream and put gauges and wrap it to cushion it while it heals - and she also thinks we should lower her meds to 10 mg once a day - she thinks her being so out of it is the meds and would like to see how she does on one - now she is due for her ACTH Monday so I thought leave her on 2 a day till then and then see what to do but she say no she would like her on one a day till Monday and then test her --- so ???? Think she is nervous from when she originally over medicated her ?? I asked about the adrenal necrosis and she said Dr Peterson said she MAY HAVE it -- so you have some input on all this?? And Addy let me know what Dr Allen had to say today --:)

[addy]

I honestly do not know what to think about changing the dose now.

Maybe recap for all of us

When was last ACTH test? Results? What was dose changed to? Has that been the same dose until now?

When was ACTH test prior to the one above? What were the results? What was the dose before that test and for how long? Did the dose change? When and how much if it did change.

We can't see Penny to evaluate. We also don't know Penny. What does your gut tell you?

Dr. Allen thought that Zoe's cortisol bouncing right back up was not unusual and that it was a matter of finding the right dose for her. Once we find it she should stabilize for more than 2 weeks.:rolleyes:

He did not see the benefit for Zoe to change to twice a day dosing just for the cortisol, thought it better for Zoe if it helped her symptoms. I felt relieved and I do have to brag about Sue, the other Zoe's mom, because I think she is so smart and she basically had told me exactly what Dr. Allen said. GO SUE!!!!!!

Well, now I hijacked your thread:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Ok I will answer ll those questions shortly - my son is just coming in from work and I waited to eat with him - husband pulling a triple at fire station - I have to get Sue in on this also!!! Kudos to Sue!!!!!:)

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy..it sure sounds like you still have so many questions that need to be answered, and I sure wish I could do that for you but I am just as confused with this as you are. I do like what Addy said about what your "gut" is telling you. I have always listened to that within myself..I believe in it.

I was thinking about you while I was at work and I was really hoping that you would have got some peace of mind about your situation with your Penny and I am sorry that didn't happen for you. I am still sending prayers to you and your girl that some answers are soon to be found. Many hugs coming to you from me (Lynda) and my Nika...

[Cyn719]

results for penny

9/17/2010
3 samples
pre 4.4
post 2.5
post 4.2

started meds beginning of dec at 60 mg

12/23/2010
pre 1.2
post 2.3

1/18/2011
pre 1.7
post 8.8 so she increased to 120 mgs here is where the mistake was she should of went up slowly - i didnt known any better then so I let her do it :eek::o:mad:

3/2011 i cant find the report but have result written down
post 2.3

6/28/2011
pre 0.8
post 0.9 so started pred and off trilo

8/6/2011
pre 0.8
post 2.8 after being on 30 mgs for 2 weeks

2 days after this test my vet spoke to Dr Peterson and he suggested 10 mg 2xs a day and today is a week thats shes been on that dose -and today she said to drop her to 10 mg once a day -didnt like how she was acting - very sluggish and did not want to get up when the vet wanted her to and didnt want to stand just wanted to lay down - again she is eating well - drinking ok - going to the bathroom - has treats here and there so again I am confused so I did not give her the second pill tonight - I was going to check with Dr Allen in the am but I do have to say the twice a day was good for her because she didnt get totally out of it like in the past -- so here we are wondering how to handle this??:confused::confused: again!

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Part of the problem of determining the right dose is how does the dog absorbs the drug. Some may do that better than others or the same dog could absorb it differently at any given time. Add to the mix that the hormones and from what I have read that includes cortisol, go through cycles, so a dose may be fine one month and then too high or too low the next.

Since Penny has had the problem of going to low and may now be sensitive to the drug, maybe it is better to err on the side of caution. That may mean some extra stims, as I am having for Zoe, but see how she acts today on just the one pill. I would have done the same thing as you did and not given the pill last night. You may find she needs her cortisol to run higher than it is and it is unknown if she has drifted lower. How does her behavior compare to her behavior when she was off the Trilostane and no prednisone?

Hang in there,
Addy

See what Dr. Allen has to say today.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I'm no vet but I am leaning more toward her leg injuries as the reason for Penny's sluggishness than the Trilo. She is not exhibiting any of the signs we normally associate with the dose being too high/cortisol being too low. Her tests certainly indicate the dose is perfect. If I were in your shoes, and certainly based on the history since Penny was diagnosed, I would follow Dr. Allen's recommendations over you vets. ;) But that is me....

I want to give you a link to a group that helped me with Crys a great deal. Like Penny, Crys couldn't have all the surgeries she needed but through this group I learned other ways to help keep her safe, keep her active, and to help her with her disabilities. It was hard work but worth every second.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ConservativeManagement/

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

8/6/2011
pre 0.8
post 2.8 after being on 30 mgs for 2 weeks

2 days after this test my vet spoke to Dr Peterson and he suggested 10 mg 2xs a day and today is a week thats shes been on that dose -


This is what bothers me, Dr. Peterson lowered the dose after the last stim. Penny went from 30 mgs once a day to 10mgs twice a day.

I hope you can speak to Dr. Allen today.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Hi I just spoke with Dr Allen - He asked alot of questions - wanted to know about the tremors/seizures she has - went over the whole thing - all the results I posted last night - he said he thinks its ok to drop her to 10 mg once a day because of how sluggish Penny has been - he rather have her on less than more until we figure this out - his question was to do the stim next monday which is 14 days when she started 10 mg 2xs a day - or wait till 14 days from yesterday when she started 10 mg once a day - so he decided to try to wait the 14 days from yesterday -- he wants penny to take the Rimadyl cause she needs it for the hock injury and the arthritis -- he said the side effects could be bad but he doesnt want her in pain -- so now I have to look into other medications for that -- he is also question the constant panting -- he feels that it should of let up by now - the drinking did - he numbers were good so why is she panting constantly??? So he was suggesting a chest xray to determine is she is having resporatory problems?? So I am looking forward to input from anyone who can help or give adivce to this?? Thanks so much for all your time concern and advice!!:)

[Cyn719]

NOTATION - TO PENNYS RESULTS I POSTED LAST NIGHT -- FORGOT TO PUT

JULY 15TH
pre 3.5
post 9.6

that was after she was off the trilo because of the low post

[Cyn719]

Penny seems alittle better - yesterday she was up and around alot more - and because of it she was not comfortable last night so I gave her half of a tramadol which says she can get up to one and a half - but today she is so tired - which I assume is the tramadol since she didnt get up this am till ten!!!!!!! Or she is tired right now because she had the trilo with breakfast?? Or both ! I have played with the tramadol dose for months now and a half is all she can tolerate - she is so sensitive to meds for sure!! I feel she will feel better on this new dose of trilo but I can feel that the increased drinking and eating will be coming right back - we will have to wait and see - :D:)

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Cindy,

I just read up on your thread and saw you asked a question about Yunah's knee? (if hock means knee...?) Yunah partially torn her CCL, this was diagnosed and confirmed by physical exam and x-rays. Since Yunah weighs relatively little and has very healthy joints (no sign of artrosis what so ever) her orhtopedic surgeon opted for the conservative way of treating it. This meant 6 weeks of absolute rest to give the knee/CCL a chance to heal. We just finished the 4th week, so 2 more to go :) Absolute rest means just that. She can walk 4 times a day, 10 minutes per walk, on a soft, as equal as possible surface. No running, simply, a steady, straight walk. This means that indoors I have her in a buggy to avoid all walking. I carry her into and out of the buggy, etc. After 6 weeks, we can slowly start rebuilding her muscles again. (due to the rest, she is loosing muscle mass very rapidly) We will do this through our normal walks but most importantly by hydrotherapie and physical therapie, just as with humans :) Swimming, walking on the underwater tredmill, massages and exercises I can do with her leg. It's the building up of the musclemass that is the most important part of the healing and keeping it under control. The muscles must become so strong that they can kind of take over the role of the CCL, keeping the joint in place.

It will be also important to stop certain games and replace them with more responsable games :) For example, no more throwing the ball for her so she can chase it since that's high "risk" for renewed knee/CCL injuries. (the sudden movements, the stops, the turns, etc) So I will change the fetching the ball game a little by telling her to sit/stay...me moving away from her with the ball and at a long enough distance laying down the ball. Returning to Yunah and them to tell her to go fetch the ball. This has the advantage that she can run in a straight line, she kind of knows where the ball is so she can slow down her speed as she approaches so she won't have to make a sudden stop. This will decrease the change to new injuries. These are just some of the things that can be done it a CCL injury is treated conservative. But the 6 weeks of absolute rest, and after that the rehabilitation process are crucial for this type of approach.

And the orthopedic surgeon put Yunah on a supplement, called Cosequin DS (http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/Vet/Products/Cosequin-ds.aspx). It will take 6 weeks before it starts to have effect but she has had wonderful results with it.

Hope this has answered some of your questions,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Cyn719]

Saskia - Penny had two CCL operations in the past - one was completely torn the other almost the same -- she did very well recovering from the operations - but after the second operation she got a tear in the tendon in her hock (ankle) and the operation for that would of been to much for her - its a long long recovery and they put a brace with the pins to hold it in place - to much for her - so they put a cast to try to elongate it for like 8 weeks but it did not work so on that leg she walks on her tip toes because she cant put the paw flat because of how it healed. So when she is weak she loses control of that leg. Yunah is is out thoughs and prayers and hope all goes well!!!:) They decreased pennys trilo so maybe she will feel alittle better and get some control of her leg??

[Cyn719]

Saskia - I went to check Pennys supplement she is on Dasuquin with MSM 2xs a day so I assume that is the same supplement - do you give it once or twice a day - I believe it has helped Penny because she has bad times with her legs - I think she would of been alot worse without it for sure -:)

[Cyn719]

Leslie thanks for the link - also I agree with you I think Penny has issues with her hips and legs that were before the Cushings but I think the Cushings did give her more muscle weakness and when she is on the trilo it makes her feel so sluggish and ?? she does not have the strength to get herself up on her already weak legs.
shes on the 10 mg once a day so much more perky - of course she getting more cortisol - but nice to see her happy and walking around - but I have to say after taking the trilo in the am she does sleep for awhile!! Very sensitive to this medication -

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I hope this dose is the one for Penny and you will start to see more of your old girl soon. The numbers are important, but if she feels better running a bit high then so be it! How she feels and acts is the most important thing in determining whether the dose is right or not. ;)

The CM ( conservative management) did wonders for Crys. She spent a whole lot of hours on a leash tagging along behind me in the house or yard, and many hours resting in her crate. We learned games, too, and one she did really well at was one I called "Hand". I would tell her "hand!" and she would come put her nose in the palm of my hand, which was turned toward my back so that she had to come up behind me. I would then give her a treat. She liked that one so much, she would walk up and stick her nose in my hand without the command, of course she was hoping for a treat! :p She also enjoyed hide-n-seek with a toy or treat. I would let her get a good smell of whatever I was going to hide, then go to another room and put it somewhere she could easily reach. I would go get her on a leash, bring her to the room she was to search, make her sit, take the leash off, and tell her "find!". She was really good at this one...probably because she remembered every previous hiding place and was methodical about checking spots. There are lots of ways to keep Penny stimulated yet protect that hock from injury. I hope you find some benefit from the CM group.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Leslie - cute games for the dog!! I will try them with Penny - she also loves her treats!! And it is hard since she cant go for walks but we do take her for a tiny walk and it seems to make her happy! Hopefully this will be the dose - but it is hard to believe that 10 mg is going to work for this 82 lb dog but I am told that is does not have to be a large dose for a large dog - She slept today for 2.5 hrs after the trilo so I do notice she does get tired after that pill but now she is outside chilling - so far the drinking is under control but this is only the 4th day on the 10 mg - I just hate the constant panting - I just got off the phone with the vet and they are going to do a chest xray in 2 weeks when she goes back for the stim - thinking that her liver is very enlarged and pressing on her diaphram causing the panting? Does the liver get better with the trilo (if anyone knows about this?) Thanks for all your thoughts and concern Leslie - it really means alot!!!:):)

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Cindy,
I just wanted to add a little to what Leslie has written about the Conservative Management route.

Our Rozee had sprained a knee and vet said it would heal in a few weeks..in the meantime, she was walking on 3 legs and 2 days later had injured her other knee and couldn't even stand up anymore. She was 15 years old and we opted for Conservative management per suggestions from Leslie and Glynda.

She was in a wheelchair for 22 weeks with no weight bearing on her hind legs, we did swimming therapy and just before Christmas last year, she was able to walk again. Now at just over 16 years old.... she runs (although we don't encourage it) like she is half her age. We still do pretty much daily swimming therapy and can't keep her from running like a crazy woman after she gets out of the pool. :):(:)

Leslie had pointed us to a Conservative Management group on Yahoo... there was a lot of good information there like not letting the vet do the drawer test.... we already know that she has luxating patella's so why let the vet stress them even further... and once we explained to the vet... he understood and agreed. :)

Keeping everything crossed for you and Penny and we see improvement real soon :)

[Cyn719]

HI I FINALLY FOUND A VIDEO ON YOUTUBE OF A DOG HAVING AN EPISODE LIKE PENNY HAS -- I JUST NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO UP LOAD IT FOR ALL OF YOU TO SEE IT - I AM NOT TO GOOD WITH THAT STUFF:o WHEN MY SON OR HUSBAND COMES HOME I WILL LET THEM DO IT ALSO if you go to google and type in KEESHA HEAD SHAKING it comes up == it is a pit but ---- half way thru the video the dogs blinks fast with alittle head jerking --- THANKS SO MUCH!!!!! :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Do you ever notice Penny's eyes moving rapidly back and forth?

[Squirt's Mom]

Some links for you -

Vestibular Disease
http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/vestibular.html
************************************************** *******

What is ataxia?

Simply said, ataxia occurs when the body is out of balance. Symptoms of ataxia include: wobbliness, buckling leg joints, a drunken, staggering gait, lack of coordination, a tilted head carriage, tripping, falling, or collapsing. http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/ataxia.htm
************************************************** *******

Nystagmus in Dogs

Nystagmus is a condition defined by the involuntary and rhythmic oscillation of the eyeballs; that is, the eyes unintentionally move or swing back and forth. http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_dg_nystagmus
************************************************** *********

And the learnin' NEVER ends! :eek::p

[Cyn719]

Leslie I will look at the links thanks no I dont notice if her eyes go back and forth because like the video she is blinking but she blinks so very fast and lids are more closed - shes not wide eyed blinking - if that makes sense and her head jerks alittle more than that dog does - she had two today back to back - each lasting like 2 maybe 3 seconds:confused::confused:

[Cyn719]

John thanks for the information I will be going on their website soon to post about Penny - Wow for Rozee 16 yrs old - good for her!! Glad to hear she is doing well - thanks again for your information and concern!!:)

[Cyn719]

PLEASE WATCH

This is the link to the dog that has the episode that penny has ?? tremors or seizure?? Pennys blinks her lids faster and her head jerks alittle more then this dog does - Pennys last only 2 seconds :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4j474s4K4Q

Please watch if you have a moment - thanks for your opinions :)

[frijole]

:confused: Am I supposed to be watching the Keisha video? Maybe I'm just tired but I watched it twice and didn't catch any tremors or shakes? Can you tell us the time in the video where it happens (minutes)? Thanks! Kim

[Cyn719]

Kim it- its right around 48 49 seconds - the dogs eyes blink quick and head jerks alittle - the only video I could find - Pennys is more noticable - her eyes lids blink very quickly and her her jerks alot more but also last only 2 maybe 3 seconds -- she had two episodes yesterday - on only the 10 mg so it may not be the meds but maybe it is on 60 and 120 mg she did it alot more :confused: also Thanks for looking - let me no

[frijole]

I never would have caught that had you not pointed it out... looked like eye blinking. I get your point though... don't know what to say... is there a time of day/night that she does it?

[Cyn719]

Leslie - thanks for looking - I know it was very quick - I wish I could catch her on video - it could be anytime of day or night and as you saw its so quick she could be having them and we are missing alot of them - I didnt see any today but yesterday she was laying on the floor in front of me and she was just starring and she pulled her head back jerked it blinked really quick and even her mouth opens alittle - its weird!! She did it 2 seconds stopped and immediately did it again - 2 more seconds - vet said some type of seizure - or side effect to the trilo? I never saw it before the trilo but doesnt mean it wasnt there - she also said maybe the tumor on her putitary gland is larger?? Hopefully I will get it on video one day!!:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Under the video, it says something about Keesha's "seizure", but they don't say what kind. You might post a comment on the video and ask for more info. I don't know if you will receive a reply, but it is worth trying. ;)

A large pituitary tumor, a macro, is rare and can only be diagnosed via an MRI or cat scan. Most PDH pups never experience this, the tumor remaining microscopic and causing no more problems that the Cushing's signs we treat every day. ;) I know when Squirt was first diagnosed, the very idea that there was a tumor in my baby's body that I couldn't take out ate my lunch! :eek: I worried more about that than anything else, I think. As I have been around more and read more, I realize macros are the exception in Cushing's, not the rule.

One of our members who unfortunately did have to face a macro in her baby, Macy, has started a thread in Everything Else in an effort to help others who may be facing the same thing. You can read about Macy's story, and others, here -

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3567

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Leslie I left a post about the video - I am trying to see how many of the epidodes happen in a day - its weird she is still very tired on only on 10 mg - something is going on I cant put my finger on for sure - she just ate went downstairs and off alone laying on her side up against the cabinet and she makes moaning sounds now and then ?? One day I am going to just sit and watch her all day with a notepad and write everything down she does!:confused:

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Hope all quiet on the Penny front means she is okay:D Not sure what the video means.:confused::confused:

Have a good week!!!!

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Addy - Penny is holding her own - drinking still good - panting still there - getting around better - not great - but I will take better - still has problems getting that body off the floor - and I feel her hearing is better for sure on 10 mg of trilo - so big question is it the trilo itself or is it that the trilo puts her in that state where she is to tired to even listen?? next week is the stim so hopefully we found the right dose:rolleyes: But she is good enough where I feel ok to leave her for awhile - shopping for college stuff :eek: and trying get a day or two at the beach since I really have not left her much - my son and parents will be on Penny duty while I am in and out -- as far as the video it is so quick you have to stare at it but it was a mild version of what Penny does:confused: Looking forward to hearing from you on Wed!! Keep your chin up - you are doing an amazing job with Zoe!!

[Cyn719]

Penny seems like she is starting to drink alittle more :eek: she is very active and panting like crazy:eek: so nice to see he active but I have a feeling that this means her levels are going to be to high!! I know how Addy feels when Zoe has the ups and downs - its like you can predict the test results! Crazy you like them active and happy but if the drinking increases and the panting increases you know its not good for them! She also seems alittle to anxious at times:( Never know what to expect - now i have the choice 1 week on 20 mgs and one week on 10 mg and do the stim or 1 week on 20 mg and 2 weeks on 10mg then the stim???? Always a decision to make!!:rolleyes:

[Cyn719]

Hi just an update (havent been on the hurrican hit here Sunday morning and left us without electricity - phone - cable till tonight -- cant complain - there are others around here they wont get it back for a week!!! Penny is doing ok - like I said last post drinking increase alittle - coat is thinning ( but could it be just regular shedding??) not sure but probably the cushings since she is only on the 10 mg - her stim is next week - we spread it out alittle more this time - it will probably be high :(-- at this point its still the panting - xray also when she goes for stim to check liver) and her back legs are still weak -- Penny is extremely stress when we go to the vets -- how much can that change the stim?? I know Addy you spoke about this -- going to brush Penny while we still have alittle daylight - coat is falling off while I am petting her:eek:

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

If memory serves me right usually the pre number is elevated when indicating stress, I thought Kim mentioned 13 or more pre could indicate stress. Stress can change the post numbers, by how much is unclear to me.

When we did Zoe's two adrenal panels her pre was lower than her pre numbers have been for the five ACTH stims we did. :confused:

If you are seeing Penny's symptoms coming back strongly, most likely her cortisol is climbing.

Glad the hurricane did not affect you too badly. Vermont sounds like a mess with the flooding.

Zoe is definitely back into the pattern of chew chew chew my Kong drink water, chew, chew chew my Kong drink water. When her cortisol was lower, she did not chew as long and she sometimes did not get a drink or if she did it would just be a sip or two. But she is awake in the kitchen when I get home from work and knows I come through the door now. For almost 3 weeks, she did not do that, she was just totally out of it and her hearing does seem to be somewhat better.

Hang in there Cindy, we'll hold hands together:D:D:D:D:D:D We'll both get figured out eventually;);)

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Addy - I hear what you are saying - Penny is so stressed out when she is there but her pre was only .8:confused: and her levels seem like they are coming up aslo by her coat - drinking - and the extra energy - she also has been chewing her bone which she has not done in ages!! When they are not feeling good they dont want to do anything - plus the poor little girl is minus 7 teeth!:eek: lol she does well for her toothless mouth - But Addy I have to say her hearing really is better - everyones has noticed!!! But her eyesite not to sure - one day she was following a big black june bug in the grass - the next day she was barking at my husband when he was getting out of his truck like who are you?? - guess shes nearsighted:D:D:D But after she has her 10 mg at breakfast she still gets tired right after - Yup you are right - we will hang in there together and we will figure out this mystery oneday:rolleyes::)

[addy]

Zoe seems to have improved in the hearing department as well. Not normal but when i call her name she will look at me, not as quickly as she used to and tonight was the first night in 3 weeks she was waiting at the back door with her chew toy in her mouth, looking at me coming through the door. I almost cried:D:D:D

You beat us by 2 teeth, Zoe is missing 5.:D:D:D:D

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

YEAH ZOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:):D:)WAY TO GO PUPFRIEND!!!!!!!! :cool: you made your mom very happy tonight!!!!!!! :D Addy I would of cried too! Anytime Penny does something that she hasnt done in a long time I just love it!! A little improvement in the hearing is such a big thing! Niceeee! My girl was ok today - alittle tired and OMG her coat is really thinning by the day - she finally had a thick coat where her black fur was so black and her brown fur was so brown and same with the white but now the colors look so faded out! I am seeing the undercoat now and the thin tail is coming back - well one more week and we will see - but so happy Zoe had a good day!! Something to be happy about for sure!!:):):):):):):):):):)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Penny,

Glad things seem to be improving for our sweet Penny. :) Keep in mind that as the cortisol comes under control, pups often blow their old coats but then they grow in new one, sometimes different from the old coat. So don't worry over much about Penny's hair loss right now. ;)

Keep up the good work, Mom!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie - I didnt know that - hopefully that is what is happening - she goes next week for her stim - not sure yet I think tues or wed - we have to move my son back to college so right after that -- her drinking is still normal and I think her panting is even alittle better but they are still going to do a chest xray to see if the liver is so enlarged that it could be pushing on her diaphragm causing her to pant?? So she is holding her own right now - just those back legs are pretty weak - muscle weakness and her bad leg from the hock injury - Dr Allen told me to use the Rimadyl but I hate that drug!! So ??

[Cyn719]

Oh i forgot to mention my little girl has INSOMNIA!!!!:D She went out at 3am and my husband could not get her in - she layed on her rug outside and WOULD NOT COME IN!!!!:eek: My husband layed on the couch and waited and finally had to go out at 4am and drag her in!! When the dogs levels go up will it do that to them?? This is a new symptom for her - just add it to the list!!:D:)

[addy]

Cindy I don't like this at all. She could be going to low

Bumping up, please

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, Cindy, we need some more detail here.

When you say she just lay there, was she responsive?

When you say your husband had to drag her inside, was that because she couldn't get up on her own?

How is she now? Did she eat her breakfast ok? Any soft stools or diarrhea? Does she seem to be very tired or uninterested in her surroundings?

Waiting to hear from you....

[frijole]

Not to confuse you but if she has insomnia I would guess its more that the cortisol is too high. Hyper, can't sleep. Very common in cush dogs. Kim

[Cyn719]

My husband said she just seemed like she did not want to come in - she was responsive but just turned her head when he went to get her like leave me alone!! This morning she seemed ok - she woke me up to go out - she ate breakfast and alittle while ago she was barking at me for a treat - so I dont think shes to low but who knows with these levels:rolleyes: what makes me think its not to low is she is drinking ok and baking for treats and hes coat is thinning (but there could be other reasons for that) and back legs are weak but that could be the disease itself and the arthritis - with these pups it so hard to tell:confused: but she is responsive:)

[Squirt's Mom]

Ok, that sounds fine....we were a bit worried there. ;)

[Cyn719]

Thanks Addy and Leslie - Shes outside again (shes just in and out up and down) could cush pups get wirey if their levels go to high?? When she walks she sometimes just seems alittle off balance but my husband thinks its because she gets so excited and her legs are trying to move faster then she can really go with her arthritis and bum leg?? Could be??

[addy]

I just got worried when I read Penny was outside in the middle of the night and did not want to come in since this was new behavior for her and she has had problems with low cortisol. It took me back to a case study I read on another website when Zoe was first diagnosed about a dog laying out in the rain. So I wanted others to double check on you both.:)

Did not mean to scare you:o:o:o I get over protective:o:o

Glad she seems fine.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Addy - I LOVE that you are over protective!!!:) You are so caring and its always good to check things out!! Pennys is just crazy - I cant ever get a good reading on her - yup when the hurricane was just about over it was lightly rainning and yes she was laying outside - now I took her in alittle while ago to eat dinner and the second she was done she wanted to be right back outside- so is it she feels good and wants to be out? Is something bothereing her?? Who knows but she better sleep tonight!!:D My husband is working doubles shifts at the fire dept and I am not staying up with her all night while she wants to be outside!!:D:eek: Even though I dont go to bed till 130!!:D Its just like she doesnt know what to do with herself so I just thought that her count might be so high that she feels overactive - but I dont know if cushings has those side effects??

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Hope you got some sleep last night and everything is calm at your house. How is Penny today? I don't know what to make of her behavior. How is she doing otherwise?

I hope you got your son off to school okay. That is a busy time.

Hugs and love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Addy - nope she did not want to sleep last nite - wants to be outside all the time - Penny is a 82 lb dog - she always loved being outside - she goes out and in - I never ever leave her out when we go out - she is basically a house dog who loves outside - BUT she wants to be out every minute now-- I take her in to eat and shes swallowing the last bite and wants to go back out - and if she thinks I am leaving shes right at the door to run out - so ok she doesnt want mom to leave her but when mom is here she wants to be in the yard????:D:D:rolleyes: Last nite she didnt want to go to sleep so I gave her a half of tramadol and she finally slept!!! My vet wont be in till tuesday and Penny is going in Wed or Thurs for stim so I will speak to her about it - weird BUT her drinking still normal - appetite is slightly increased and like I said its her coat shes losing - today the new thing I noticed was when she goes to sit she seems like that bothers her - like she goes into the sitting position but not all the way and then gets up - maybe her back legs - her arthritis :confused: but she does seem like she has energy but sometimes nervous energy - wow I dont know when to stop:D:D:D:D:D:p:o:D:D Well if you or anyone has input on this i would like to hear it!! Thanks for listening!!:)

[addy]

Our South African Mastif at my office, does the same thing when sitting; he has arthritis in his back leg and also had surgery last winter on it. It takes him a while to settle into a sit and he really does not like to sit. He prefers to just lie down or stand. Of course he is huge, I think 120 pounds maybe. But it could be Penny's back leg is bothering her.

From what you wrote today it does sound like insomnia; which Kim said can happen.

Don't you wish they could just tell us what is bothering them?

Try to enjoy your weekend and I hope you get some sleep.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Yup Addy you are right its probably her bad leg and arthristis - and Kims right to about the insomia - cause some nights she has it some she doenst - cant wait for the stim!! Praying every night that Zoes hearing gets better - My weekend is just beginning LOL did alot of shopping this week for college with Mike and now we have to pack it all then pack his clothes - WOW it feels like I just got done doing this last year:D:D We are moving him in on Monday:( He will only be 45 minutes away but hes my only one and I enjoy him being here - My husbands works alot days and nights so its just me and the pup!! It gets to quiet around here - Penny keeps me gong for sure!!!!:) Have a Great Weekend!!:):D

[Cyn719]

Mike is all moved into college again!! What a quick summer! I think Penny is really missing him - she keeps going to the door looking outside:( Tomorrow is her stim - Hope its normal or close to it!! Shes so hard to read - up and down so much - a good day - two bad days - etc -- but her coat is gone for sure!! My vaccum can tell you that!!!:D

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Good luck with the stim and I hope it stops raining. You and Penny are both probably missing Mike.:):):):)

Sorry to hear Penny blew her coat. Sometimes that gets worse before it gets better but since Penny had grown her coat back in on the higher dose of Trilostane, not sure what to make of that now. I guess her stim will tell us.;);)

Love,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

We are waiting for good results on this stim! ;)

When Trink got out of balance this summer and started blowing her coat, it was unreal! :eek: Who could have dreamed so much hair could come from one itty bitty body????

I vacuumed several times a day and thought I was doing a good job of keeping up with it...boy was I wrong! My A/C started freezing up and I was thawing it out every 2-3 hours - day and nite! ugh... A friend of mine, who happens to own a heat and air company, came by to visit during one of the thawing sessions. He climbed on top of the camper and took the A/C apart. He climbed back down and just shook his head while looking at me like I was some sort of strange new species. LOL

I had erroneously assumed there was a built-in filter somewhere in the ceiling of the camper but NOOOOOOOO. All that hair the vacuum didn't catch went right into the A/C and it couldn't breath at all! :eek: It was a half a day process with lots of mess but he and my brother got it cleaned up and working again....and I have this big green ugly filter taped over the return air in the ceiling of the camper....but we stayed cool without the constant thawing! :p

One thing us pup parents can always say with confidence - there is NEVER a dull moment! :D

Let us know how it goes today and remember you have a crowd following you around in there!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Keiko's Mom]

Hi. Keiko just got stim test results...pre was 3.1 and post was 4.9
We spoke to Dr. Allen and we are good for another 90 days. I'm thrilled and I hope you are going to be also! I know you'll post as soon as you can....I'll be looking and hoping.

[Cyn719]

Addy - yup you are right again - we both miss Mike for sure!!! OMG I cant believe I am saying that cause he is only 45 mins away!!! What can I say!!! LOL Penny is on her way home - my husband took her - my fibromyalgia has kicked in so bad with this awful weather I just couldnt take her - suppose to stop raining tomorrow morning - I know the stim is going to be high - some days this poor girl just looks like she is on a caffine high and not sure what to do with herself!! - Vet said that they are trying to figure out what to do with her hock injury - the back of her leg is starting to hit the ground!:( She tried a brace but it didnt work - going to make appointment with her ortho doctor -

Leslie - You REALLY made me laugh and I REALLY needed that today!!!!!:D:):D:) I know - you never know where you are going to find that damm fur!!!! Penny has the shepard undercoat which is never ending shedding along with the Akita - lab and pit fur!! You said it-- never ever a dull moment!! :D

I know everyone is so happy with Keikos results!! I left you a post!! :):)

THANK ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS AND FOR ALWAYS BEING THERE :) - WILL POST TOMORROW!!

[Cyn719]

OMG me and Penny thought we would have sun tomorrow - now they are saying we wont have sun till maybe Sunday because the Hurricane keeps shifting!!:eek: I know her arthritis hates this weather like my fibromyalgia does!!! So I guess its R and R for the both of us - the vet has mentioned therapy for Penny - any imput? I know the ortho dr will probably recommend the same

[Squirt's Mom]

;);) http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/C...iveManagement/ ;);)

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie -- I thought someone gave me a link a while ago - I couldnt find it :o-- thanks for giving it to me again - I went on there and left a message -- :)

[Cyn719]

OMG JUST GOT PENNYS ACTH BACK -

PRE 1.7
POST 3.2 YEAH:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I am so excited Penny and Keiko both got good news in the same week!!:)

She is on 10 mg once a day - 82 lbs

Poor girl went up to 120 mg and never really need it - well I have learned so much on this forum thats for sure - if it werent for ALL of you I really dont know if Penny would be here right now - I truly mean that! She wants to do the stim again in a month - calling Dr Allen to see what he says -

[Cyn719]

Called Dr Allen he said repeat in 3 months unless I feel she has issues that warrents it to be done sooner - said he is hoping the fur loss is due to regular shedding - but he cant figure out why she is panting so much - next stop the ortho doctor

[Keiko's Mom]

Happy is the word! Our babies need the good news and it helps us mommies, too. Enjoy it....glad to know.

[Cyn719]

Thanks Keikos mom - yes I am enjoying it for sure!!!:):)

[addy]

Cindy oh Cindy,

I AM SMILING FROM EAR TO EAR:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Thanks Addy for everything!! - I am smiling too!!!!!:D:):D:)

[frijole]

Perfect! Wow... you are controlled on 10 mg and your other vet had her on 120... it would have killed her. There's a lesson here for anyone wondering if their regular vet knows how to treat cushing's. Some do - some don't but they all bill you just the same. It pays to double check. You did good. Hugs to Penny too! Kim

[Cyn719]

Kim - Yes a second opinion is always worth it for sure!! And THANK YOU to you and all the Cush Angels who took the time to educated me and who stirred me in the right direction -- also credit to Dr Peterson and Dr Allen!! I have to say you call Dr Allen and he answers right away!!! I think Penny knows we are celebrating - she just got on the couch in Mikes den in the basement and bounced and bouched like she was on a trampoline!!!!!:cool::D:cool::D HUGS KISSES BIG LICKS FROM PENNY!!!! IF SHE COULD TALK I KNOW SHE WOULD BE THANKING ALL OF YOU TOO!!!:D

[Squirt's Mom]

:D:D Woohoo, Penny and Mom! :D:D

[Cyn719]

Thank you Leslie - I am really happy!!:D Like I said in my past few posts THANK YOU to YOU and all the Cush Angels - all of you really got Me and Penny to where we are today for sure!! Could never of done it without all of you!! HUGS KISSES AND OF COURSE A GREAT BIG LICK FROM PENNY!!:D

[Nika'sMom]

Oh Cindy!!!!...I could feel your excitement so much that you made me tear up ;)...I am so very happy for you...this is the best news :D this must be stim week, I am waiting for the results of Nika's stim that she had done yesterday and I hope we get just as good of news that you did :)..many hugs to you and your Penny from me and Nika:D

[Cyn719]

THANK YOU SO MUCH LYNDA!!!!! I am sooooo happy!!! :)Her mood is alot better and so is mine !!!!!!!:D:D:D OMG you had stim test also WOW the three of us!!! Ok waiting for your post - fingers and paws are crossed!!!!!! I hope you get it back today!!!! Bigs hugs back to you and Nika!!:)

[Nika'sMom]

Hi Cindy...you know how they say things come in three's?...well Nika got good results too :D...sure has been a great week for stims here ( I am repeating myself lol).... pre 1.9 and post 4.9....I hope you plan to celebrate this weekend with your Penny like I will be with my Nika ( and other furkids:D)...have fun celebrating and many hugs coming to you and your Penny..Lynda and Nika

[Cyn719]

Lynda -

YESSSSSS - THAT IS FANTASTIC NEWS!!!! :D THREE IN A ROW!!!! :D WOW!!! NOW WE HAVE TO ADD MORE CUSH PUPS TO THIS LIST!!! THAT WOULD REALLY MAKE MY DAY!!!!! :) YUP PENNY IS CELEBRATING - LAST NIGHT DAVE PENNY AND I WENT TO FIREHOUSE (A DINER ON WHEELS) YES OWNED BY A FIREFIGHTER - :rolleyes: LOL - WE GOT STEAK SANDWICHES AND PENNY GOT A HOT DOG!!!! HER FAVORITE! LOL LOL :D:D:D ENJOY AND CELEBRATE!!!!! KISSES AND HUGS TO BOTH OF YOU AND PENNY IS SENDING A HUGE WET LICK TO NIKA!!:D

[labblab]

Hey Cindy, Congrats to you and sweet Penny!!!!!!!! :) :D :) :D :)

I hope you both have a TERRIFIC weekend! :p :p :p :p

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Thanks so much Marianne!! We will have a very nice weekend! :D:) She is feeling better - I was just feeding her and I went to answer the door and when I came back there was a bite taken out of the turkey meat I was cutting on the counter - boy those back legs can hold her up when they need to!!!:rolleyes::D

[Cyn719]

Hi just a quick post - Penny had a weird day today - sleeping alot - I came in the house she never heard me (Addy here we go again) I thought she was doing better with the hearing - I came in the house - no Penny so I went upstairs cause she usually sleeps on Mikes bed and went I got to the top of the stairs she was on the floor with her back to me and when I said Penny I scared her and she jumped up - all day she has been panting more than before and is out of sort - but still eating and drinking ??? I will have to keep my eye on her tonight - wish I knew the reason she pants so much! - I will update tomorrow unless she gets worse - hope not

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Hope Penny is feeling better today. Zoe goes through ups and downs as well, I wonder if it is not the fluctuating cortisol some times or perhaps a change in their routine tires them out. For Zoe, the weekends are different than the weekdays, not as calm.

How are Penny's stools? Just a thought, as Zoe only pants when she has tummy issues.

Hugs,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Hi Addy - Penny is so so - she had a couple of those episodes today - shes quiet - but eats and drinks - wanted treats - she pants day and nite - her stool was alittle soft but still had form to it - so watching that closely - I think you are right - their levels must change daily - she is going next week to orthopedic so we can see how much that hock injury is adding to this - plus she probably does have the weakness from the Cushings itself - she was going upstairs to Mikes bed but she stopped that again so I can tell when her legs are really bothering her --- also her poor elbows on her front legs are so so so sore and hard!! I keep finding bloody spots where she lays down - the vet said to put lanolin oitment onto soften them - I started today - that stuff is so sticky!!!:eek: She lays down so much now its wearing on her - So hope Zoe is doing good - how was she over the weekend? How is her poo??

[Cyn719]

Hi I guess everyday one of us is going to have a bad day/nite - well tonight is my turn - sitting here crying at 138am Penny really had a bad day today - I thought it would pass - she has been good the past week - but in a blink of an eye she is not doing good - for my husband to say tonight - Penny is really aging fast - its finally getting to her - I no he didnt mean to upset me but I cant stop crying!!! She looks so old and tired - her legs didnt want to move today - it seems like her back hurts - her legs hurts - she just really seems like she was saying please help me -- Shes going next week to the orthopedic but I dont even know if that will help and they wanted me to start therapy but the ortho wants to see her first - this damm Cushings is just wasting away her muscles day by day - she takes the 10 mg of trilo once a day - she takes pepcid ac once a day - dasaquin twice a day and Rimadyl - I hate that med but if I dont give it to her she cant even get up!! I was starting the fish oil today but I held off - wanted to ask the vet how much for 82 lbs and what form should I give her - She is eating and drinking -- shes not legarthic - just cant move -- I am sitting with her - gave her a half of tremadol to relax her - I should of gave her a whole one now I dont want to wake her to give her the other half - she needs to rest - all she has done is grunt and grone for the past few days - she just lets out loud grones - whats that ?? Is sounds awful like she is trying to tell me something??? I am going back to be with her - my computer is in the basement family room - she is on the first floor in the den -- I will post later on in AM - I have an AM appt - or God I know I will look like s#@t for that appt for sure!!! - my husband will be with her - I need the other half of her tramadol!!!:eek::rolleyes:

[addy]

Cindy I am sorry to hear about Penny and her stiffness and pain. I hope you find some answers at your appointment that will bring her relief.

Sometimes when we lower their cortisol, we find they had been self medicating with the higher cortisol as if their bodies were producing its own prednisone to help inflammation they had. Then we have a new set of problems.

I am sending big, big hugs and love and support to you and Penny.

One good day, one bad day, the ride never stops so we are here to help with the ride. I have to go to work today but will check in on you later.

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Addy thank you so much for the love and support!!! Penny got up this morning and ate and went back to bed - on Mikes bed with the A/C on -very humid her today and rainny - shes so tired plus the hald of tramadol - I am going for an appointment - she will sleep while I am gone - Dave will check on her - wll post when I get back to see how shes moving -

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

Let us know how Penny is when you get back, 'k?

Like Addy said, one of the unfortunate effects of lowering the cortisol can be that other painful conditions raise their ugly heads since the cortisol was "treating" the pain. I hope the ortho doc can give you some direction that will bring her some relief.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thanks Leslie - You both are right its the disease and it s@@ks!!!!! The poor girl could bearly walk yesterday - today she is alittle better but not to much spunk! It will be interesting to see what the ortho has to offer - not expecting much - but its worth a try -- plus all this rain and humidity does not help and expected to rain till next thursday with a drop of sun on Monday!! :eek: Keeping her by my side - :) Thanks for being there Addy and Leslie

[addy]

Just got back from rehab and stopping in to say good night to you and Penny.

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Nite Nite Addy Zoe and Koko sleep well tonight - you need it!!!! Penny is quiet - ate today - a few treats but very quiet - no spunk - its her discomfort and the rainy weather - we all feel blah!!! no sun for days!!!!!!!!! Thanks for checking in:)

[jmac]

Hi Cindy,
I hope Penny is doing better today. I agree, everyone takes turns having their bad day or panic episode, but thank God we have each other to turn to in our time of panic/worry. I am so sorry to hear Penny was having a rough time. I am sure it was torture to watch and listen to. I hope you will get some answers soon on how you can make her feel better.

Julie & Hannah

[Cyn719]

Julie thanks for the concern and for being there!:)- I hate the loud grones - just wish I know why - and now I stare at her since my husband said poor Penny is aging quickly!!!!:( Now my son came in today from college he just saw Penny a week ago and he says wow she aged in a week!!:eek: OMG whats going on - poor thing its taking such a toll one her - ok today was in the yard for 2 hrs came in cause it is so humid and rainy - she ate but now shes just lying there - weird its like she sleeps with her eyes open - and her legs are always moving - strange?? I dont want to say lethargic cause she is up and moving but just not right - watching closey!!

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Hope Penny is feeling better. Have a nice Monday.

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

I am not sure what is wrong - I let Penny out like I usually do and let her stay out for half hour before bed and when I went to get her she did not want to get up - I got he up - she can bearly walk - panting very heavy - I got her in - gave her water - she went to drink and just rested her jaw on the bowl - I put her treat in front of her - she wouldnt even look at it - she has been of the Rimadyl for two days - it was late coming in the mail - so is it that?? Is it the Cushings - I should skip trilo in morning and call vet right?? Shes trying to get up - her back legs are bearly holding her - she looks awful - should pred be given??

[Cyn719]

I am watching her closely - she is at back door laying there with jaw rested on bowl - I go near her she put her head to the ground - just licks the water a few times - will not move - ok just got up to go on her bed - shes either in tons of pain or off from the trilo - just deciding a pred or a tramadol for the pain

[Cyn719]

update shes laying on her bed panting - puts her head down between her front legs for just a few seconds then lifts it and pants heavy again - cant get comfy?? cant pinpoint it - then she looks to the left alot then looks up and looks like she chews - weird - maybe going to try the tram to get her comfortable

[Cyn719]

gave her half tramadol at 140am she is now in her bed - not panting but breathing heavy - not sleeping - shes in the bed with her body pushed up against the back of the bed as much as she can - when I tried to give her the pill she clenched and would not open - she never does that - I got it open finally - and she did not want to life her head - I feel like it may be the pituitary tumor getting larger - this isnt looking good right now - Im a mess - crying like crazy - husband is at work till 730am - I will be on phone with vet at 8am - taking her in asap - Im not giving up but the way she looked tonight - confussed - her eyes didnt want to stay open - she was just so exhausted from whatever this is - I dont want her to be suffering - but I dont want to lose her - I know everyone is asleep but I just need to post - need to vent - sorry for so many post - I will check in later this am

[ShannonJ92]

Hi, I'm not asleep but I don't know if I will be of much help. Just want to let you know I'm here and saying a prayer for your Penny. I know what it's like to have such things going on, on weekends and in the middle of the night and waiting for the vet to open the minutes seem like hours and the hours seem like days. Being frantic. Is there an ER vet you could take her to now? I'd urge you to do so if you have one you could get to.

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Wanted to add Leslie sent links awhile back re: Vistibular disease - read it said if dog is bothered by opening mouth could be a tumor in head - she did not want me to go near her face or open her mouth when I gave pill and all nite kept opening her mouth like she was going to yawn but didnt?? She turns her head to the left alot and her ear was down yesterday like it was bothering her - she walked tonight like she was frozen drunk and confused -:confused::confused:

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

You are right to get Penny to the vet asap. I don't know whether it is the Cushings or not but she definately needs to be seen. I know exactly how you are feeling and will be thinking of you both. Just off for a walk with my dog now but will check in later.

Linda

[Cyn719]

Shannon thank you so much - I am alone and of course my husband has my car his being fixed but if I have to call the fire station where he works I will - hes only 5 minutes away -- I am not going to leave her side - she is resting with the half of tramadol - with I gave her a whole -- she does not want me to open her mouth again - if she gets up again and is really bad i will call him home to take us to the ER if not I will take her first thing when the vet gets in at 8ish - yes this is awful - I never saw her do this before - scarey - my golden had a brain tumor and grand mal seizures so I know what thats like - shes not doing that but she looks like the pain is head to toe - shes stiff - I wont take my eyes off her - thank you for being there - that was so nice of you!! xoxoxoxo

[Cyn719]

I am forgetting the time difference! some people are up - its 239am here in the Rhode Island USA Thank you Linda for checking in - I am by her side - she is laying in her bed - one moment her head is down and I think she is going to sleep - the next her head is up and she is panting!! This is some form of pain or difficulty breathing for sure!! If I see her get any worse I will call my husband if not I will have her at the vet in 5 hrs or so - this is so awful to see but thank you for being there

[ShannonJ92]

I'm on your time, I'm in PA, a true night owl. I feel helpless with you, from what you're describing, maybe you should call your husband and tell him what's going on... is it possible for him to leave work being that it's a possible emergency? Trust me I've been there, to wait or not to wait, how long is safe to wait or is it crucial to have her seen right away? My Pebbles has a history of pancreatitis and it's often on weekends or late at night or holidays (now we're dealing with Cushing's too and kidney/adrenal issues so even though I'm a night owl I wouldn't be sleeping anyway - just too wound up). What is Penny doing right now? Does she seem to be in severe distress or mildly uncomfortable or just restless?

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Shannon - wow I finally met another night owl!! I am usually up till 2 - 300am every morning!! So i can handle this - she is in her bed - she is in a different position when I check her - she is alittle more relaxed the tramadol helped - she is not sleeping though - and she gets really relaxed I can hear her like snoring?? I read on another page about a dog who did the same things as Penny did tonight and it was not a good end result - I am going to let her rest - is she seems like she gets distressed in anyway I will get my husband home - if not 8am cant come quick enough!! Thanks again so much for being here with me - Bless you and Pebbles - I will have you both in my prayers always -- I will post again when I call the vet at 8 - that you for your kindness xo

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

That's the great thing about this site, there is nearly always someone on who's in a different time zone! Not that I have any answers but it helps to know someone is there. It's 8.45 am here.

Brin, my non-cushings dog, had a vestibular episode a couple of years ago but it doesn't sound like what Penny has. He could walk about and wasn't really weak he just kept falling in a heap when he shook his head or turned around quickly.

It's good that Penny is relaxing now, she won't be as stressed if she's quiet. I hope that she's ok until you get to the vets but if she gets any worse I would take her in to the emergency clinic.

I am off to work soon but will check later to see how you get on.

Linda x

[ShannonJ92]

Yeah, I'm up all night for the most part. Been a night owl since I was a kid, now it's the same but for different reasons.

While I have no idea what could be going on with Penny, I hope she has as comfortable a night as possible... just under 4 more hours until 8. Please post what happens once she's been seen by the vet. I will check back later tomorrow sometime and hope to see an update. Good luck! I really mean that.

And thank you for the prayers for my Pebbles, much appreciated.

~Shannon

[Cyn719]

Shannon and Linda - Wow I have been a night owl also since i was a kid! Same her still a night owl - just cant sleep and menapause!!! I am 49 and had hot flashes since 32 - Hodgkins which caused early menapause - on and off hormones - can send a man to the moon but cant stop hot flashed - ok I am really overtired for sure:p Penny feel asleep like 4 - 430 - I guess the tramdadol kicked in -- I only gave her half - but I wouldnt shut my eyes - I dont know what happened to her but when she was at the back door - pushed right up against it and kept pushing to get closer and closer - and turning her head and groaning - and she walked like she was frozen trying to move - and the clenching of her teeth so I couldnt open her mouth - I was freaking out for sure - hope we find out today what is wrong -- thank you again so much just for being there - you have no idea how much you have help!!:)

[Cyn719]

Sorry for so many post since early AM -- So confused -- Penny just woke up went right to her bowl of water and drank and drank and drank she drank a whole bowl and I filled it again and shes drinking that and its a big bowl - I would think her numbers are high but when they are she feels good and has energy?? After she drank her tounge was in and out like she didnt know what to do with it I know weird -- now shes laying there licking her chops and sticking out her tounge like a snake - like shes tasting something bad - not licking the air -- and panting -- could her electrolytes be off? He eyes lids are heavy and she just looks totally off - call in to vet at 8 to tell her we are coming in -

[labblab]

Hi Cindy,

I'm so sorry that you guys have had such a rough night!!!!!!!!! Don't EVER feel you need to apologize for posting. We are your family!!!!! Please give sweet Penny a big hug for all of us. You are doing the very best thing by taking Penny in to be seen this moring, and we'll be sitting on pins and needles until we hear what you've found out.

Sending huge hugs and healing energy to you both. I know how worried and exhausted you must be.

Marianne

[addy]

Hi Cindy,

Wow, what a night you have had, I am so sorry Penny is having trouble and I hope the vet appoitment can help this am.

Waiting to hear.

Sending love and hugs and hopes for Penny,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Marianne and Addy - thank you - I am waiting for the vet to call me back - Penny is flat out on her side - shes so tired - I know the feeling - I havent closed my eyes yet -- I dont understand this at all - my husband thinks it her stomach being upset - she is not vomiting but making the motions with her tounge like she wants to be sick:confused: Going to get dressed so I will be ready to get her there - post soon

[Cyn719]

Going in alittle to drop her off at the vets - she want to keep her for awhile to run some test and observe her - very scared!!!! Waiting for husband to get her - she is really tired - dont know if it cause she is sick - tired - or the half of tramadol at 2am or all of the above -- i know i cant see straight right now -- its going to be a long stressful day!!! thanks everyone for being there with me now and thru the night!! xo

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Cindy,

I want to second what Marianne said - NEVER apologize for posting! My goodness, honey, you are ours and we love you and Penny dearly - we always want to know what is going on! Especially when there is a situation like this.

I am so sorry Penny is having such a tough time. It does sound as if she is/was in extreme pain which will cause nausea, as we well know. But your vet will surely be able to pinpoint the problem this morning. Do let us know what you find out and know we are all there with you, holding you both in our arms.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Cyn719]

Thank you Leslie - I cant stop crying - I am waiting for David to get here to take her with me - I cant get her in the SUV alone and I am crying so much I cant drive -- He worked last night at the Fire Department and today at the pool company - he had to go in he had the keys so he had to open - he will be here within the hour -- I dont know what happened - will keep posting with updates -- what would I do with my Cush Family!!! You are the best group of people - with the BIGGEST HEARTS EVER!!!!!!! XO

[Squirt's Mom]

Honey, if it helps, I'm crying with you....I know how awful you are feeling, how scared and worried. Know you are not alone for one second, not one....

[Spiceysmum]

Cindy,

I am relieved that Penny is now at the vets and hope they soon find out what is wrong. I can totally relate to how helpless you felt last night and it brings alot of memories flooding back. I am at work again in a couple of hours so I might not see your post before then but I am hoping for good news when I return later.

Linda x

[Squirt's Mom]

Sitting beside you, sweetie, holding your hand.....