New Member Gizmo - Min Pin (Atypical)

[Gizmosmom]

I don't even know where to start. My little Gizmo (7 lb Min Pin) was recently diagnosed with Atypical Cushings which I know nothing about, but learning. 2 years ago she had her spleen removed and liver has been way elevated for long time. Now lots of money, lots of tests later, we have cushings. She has had a horrible cough for about 6 months now and I was thinking it was from either the Actigall/Ursodial or the Melatonin implant. She is currently on Ursodial, melatonin implant, Marin and I ordered from Flaxhull guy and that should be here in a day or so.
cholesterol 339, triglycerides 366, last test for alk 347 and alt 266
Dr. Olivers test cortisol before 11.5 after 107-normal
Androstenedione before .39 after 2.1. -normal
Estradiol before 106.8 after 110.7 - way high
Progesterone before .08 after 1.94 - way high
Her liver counts go up and down. I stopped the ursodial some time back and they went back up to 600. I started the melatonin implant and went back on ursodial and also HMR Lignans (which I cannot get again- it was from europe) and it went down, but she developed this horrible cough. More like acid reflux. I think it is either the melatonin implant maybe too much at one time or the ursodial because that deals with bile acids. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This forum has already helped me a ton. Right now I am mostly interested in anyones imput on the melatonin implant vs daily melatonin, the ursodial and diet. Thank you, Gizmosmom

Also I talked with Dr Oliver and he recommeded the Melatonin and lignans ,but said he does not use ursodial and that I needed to discuss that with my vet.

[gpgscott]

Your little one has labs very similar to my departed Moria.

In our case we administered oral melatonin and flax lignans and saw decline in both estradiol and alp. We switched to the melatonin implant and did that for less than a year and switched back to oral melatonin. We switched back because there is no good way to know when the implant is depleted, the implant requires a trip to the Dr. which was stressful and the oral melatonin seemed to do just fine.

I have no experience with the ursodial.

I suspect Dr. Oliver has suggested that a maintenence dose of Lysodren should be considered if the melatonin/lignans do not produce the desired control.

Best wishes. Scott

[Gizmosmom]

Thank you Scott and I am sorry for your loss. I lost my mastiff this year to cancer as well. Did Moria have any issues when you did the implant? It seems like Gizmo started coughing the very next day after it was implanted and she has not stopped. My vet says it is unrelated, but I am not so sure. She is so tiny. Maybe it is too much at one time and causing acid reflux. I seems like most people are using the regular melatonin, but I am not sure. Thank you again and my thoughts are with you.

[mytil]

Hi and welcome from me too.

I do not have any direct experience with melatonin implants and it does sound odd that her cough started the day after the implant was inserted. I do want to comment on the cough your little Gizmo has. I would talk with my vet about the possibility of a collapsing trachea. Dogs with this will generally cough as if trying to clear the airways. There is medication that will help with this.

Terry

[apollo6]

Just want to welcome you.
Will be praying for Gizmo and you.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi and Welcome from me as well,

Just curious, why can't you use the SDG lignans, did that give your pup loose stools? Maybe I missed that in your post. I have never used the HMR as Zoe tolerated the SDG lignans just fine, which suprised me actually, she has a very sensitive tummy.

Zoe takes oral melatonin and SDG lignans. She does not cough from it but she will drink water right after taking the lignans. I guess I would be suspious too if the cough developed right after the implant but sometimes the obvious is not the case with our pups:rolleyes:

Is your pup burping at all? Is the tummy making any noise? Is it a dry cough or a honking sound?

Not sure of the other drug, but maybe we can help research that.

Addy

[Gizmosmom]

Thank you all for this forum. I am not getting much help from my vet of 17 yrs. Terry my vet thought the cough may be tracheal, but the tracheal looks ok in xray and it started getting better. I guess it still could be but it seems more like acid reflux in a way but not sure. Addy, thank you for your imput as well. The day she went in for her new implant and EKG to rule out heart problems she had almost stopped coughing, the very next day it was full on again. I also just started back on the regular dose of ursodiol then as well. He put her on Ursodiol when we could not control the liver enzymes prior to her diagnosis of Atypical Cushings. Once she had been diagnosed he added the melatonin and lignans. He did not give me options. He put in the melatonin implant so I didn't know I could give her oral and he gave me a website to HMR Lignans because it was the only one he could find with a low enough dose for her body weight at 7lbs. I didn't know I had options till I found you all here. The flaxhull guy is really nice and took time to explain SDG Lignans and he feels they are better and he helped me figure out her dosage so I am excited to start that as soon as my 1/16 measuring spoon arrives from Amazon hehe. As for the Ursodiol as long as I have been getting it, it has been a milky consistancy and the new one is clear and grainy. I mentioned it to my vet and said don't worry about it so I called the pharmacy and they said they probably changed their compounding agents. It could be something in the new binding agents they are using. I called another pharmacy and they said they use non-allergenic binding agents and my pharmacy could not say the same. I don't know if it is the cause of the coughing but that changed at about the same time as the cough as well. This is so frusterating. So I don't even know if she still needs the ursodiol. My vet said it won't hurt her, but stop it if you want to. I don't even know what to do with that. Thank you all for you support. Michell and Gizmo

[addy]

Ursodial side effects in humans:

Side effects may include:
Abdominal pain, back pain, bronchitis, constipation, coughing, diarrhea, gas, headache, indigestion, joint pain, muscle pain, nausea, sinus inflammation or infection, sore throat, upper respiratory tract infection, viral infection, vomiting


Read more: http://www.drugs.com/pdr/ursodiol.html#ixzz12x237yAt

just found this Michelle,

Addy

[Gizmosmom]

Thank you Addy, I found that too when I was poking around on the internet, but my vet said he looked it up and didn't see anything in his medical/vet book re cough as side affect for dogs. He started her on the ursodiol when we could not get her liver enzymes to go down but that was before the diagnosis of cushings so I am not sure she needs it but I am not sure she doesn't and he said wont hurt her, but stop it if you want. I didn't like that answer. I don't want to make a bad choice and hurt her. I am thinking of stopping it for maybe 4-5 days and see if cough lets up. I wish I knew someone who has had experience with this medication. Doesn't seem like many on here use it so that concerns me too. Thank you for your help.

Michelle

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Michelle and welcome to you and Gizmo! :)

I'm another who doesn't use Ursodiol. :p My Squirt was on Milk Thistle but built up an intolerance for it...possibly because I misused it by giving it continuously. It now makes her throw up in any form. However, while she was able to take it, her liver enzymes did go down. Many here use it with no problems; Squirt is the only one I recall who had this problem with it, and again my ignorance could well have played a part. :o

Squirt also had a portion of her spleen removed in '08 due to a tumor. To help purify her blood I started using Astragalus and Burdock. Rose Mountain Herbs is my source for these as I trust the purity of the products and the company. They are always my first stop when shopping for herbs. ;)

Squirt is Atypical, too, and just had another UTK panel done this month. You can see her results on our thread here, in post #230:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=633&page=23

Her previous results are also listed for comparison. Do you have Gizmo's test results and would you mind sharing them with us? Please include the units of measurement (pg/ul, ng/ml, ect) and the normal ranges given for each value. These should be the same as Squirt's but one never knows so we always ask. ;)

Also, if you have the most recent CBC lab for Gizmo and could list just the values that are either too low or too high, along with units and norms, that would be a big help, too.

What was going on that prompted you to have Gizmo tested in the first place for Cushing's? What signs were you seeing?

Does he have any other health problems that you are aware of? What other meds, supplements, herbs, ect. is he taking beside the melatonin, lignans and Ursodial?

I am assuming his vet checked for heart and lung issues with his cough? Was he checked for allergies?

Do you walk him with a collar or a harness?

Ok...I think that's enough of 20 Questions for now. :p The more we know about Gizmo and his history, the more meaningful our feedback will be. We don't get really nosy until we get to know you a bit better! :p

I see a bit of myself in your posts...and one of the hardest lessons I have had to learn since Squirt was first diagnosed in '08 is this - no vet, regardless of how much I like or trust them, has the right to do anything for or to my babies without my knowledge and permission. In the past, I simply trusted them to KNOW what is best for my babies but, unfortunately, that trust was not always merited. I now know the do not always know what is best for MY babies simply because they do not know them as I do. And that is one of our mantras here - no one knows your baby as well as you do. If your gut tells you something is not right, act on that feeling because the odds are, you are right. ;) The ideal situation for our babies is a team comprised of us and our vets working side by side on their behalf.

The one thing that gave me confidence to stand up for my babies is knowledge. Knowledge truly is power when dealing with Cushing's. You are Gizmo's first and last defense, his only voice, his advocate and the more you know the stronger you will be in these roles. So read, read, read; ask lots of questions and then read some more. We will be here to help in any way we can.

I am glad you and Gizmo found us and look forward to hearing more about both of you as time passes. We are a little family here of which you and Gizmo are now part of; you are not alone any longer.

Keep your chin up!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[Gizmosmom]

Leslie, thank you so much for you very kind welcome. I felt so alone until I came here. I feel like my vet is not helping me much at all and I don't know anyone who knows anything about it. I posted my lab results in my first post but not sure I did it right so I will try to do it again in more detail. My little girl is currently on Ursodiol, Marin, Melatonin Implant, SDG Lignans. What are you feeding? Also I have been getting the small bites for dry food and I think maybe I should go a little bigger but not too big because she inhales her food. Doesn't take time to chew so she can go steal someonelses.