What to do for my Bonnie13y/o West Highland terrier (wee girl Bonnie passed away)

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Everyone.
So pleased I came across this forum. My Bonnie (West highland terrier) has had Cushings for about 4 years, she is 13 years old.
She is on 60mg of Vetoryl each day. Over the last 4 years she has the ACTH test every 3/6 months.

Over the last 9 months or so I have noticed that Bonnie is finding it hard to go for a walk and manage steps. She has increased trembling and is often panting. She is drinking more and has started doing mighty pools of wee in the house. She has also started to cough, and her belly seems bigger.

The Vet told me that these are side effects of the Vetoryl. She also said that Bonnie could have a chest x.ray to see if anything shows up regarding the cough, however she also said that if something was found she would not be willing to do surgery due to her age and might not make it thought any op.

I have asked the vet if her medication dose should be changed but she says no. So I started looking for more info. It seems to me that Bonnie is having adverse side effects to the vetoryl. Could that be the case even if she has been on it for 4 years ? How she is now is worse than she was when she first got Cushings.

I am very tempted to stop giving her the Vetoryl to see if she improves. I dont want to cause any harm to my wee Bonnie so thought it would be a good idea to post here.

Any thoughts on this would be great.
btw I live in the UK

[addy]

Hi and Welcome to you and Bonnie,

The moderators will all be along soon. They will want to know how much Bonnie weighs and what were the results of any tests, especially her last ACTH test. They will want to know what tests she had to confirm her Cushing's diagnosis. They ask alot of questions, but that is a good thing!!!:)

It could be she just needs an adjustment to her dose or twice daily dosing, but I will let the more experienced members address that.

We have alot of good information in our Resource section for you to look through.

Again, welcome and glad you found us.

Addy

[labblab]

Welcome to you and Bonnie!

I'm so sorry that Bonnie is not doing very well right now, and I surely understand why you are trying to find some answers and explanations. Given your description of her increasing problems during the last nine months, however, I have to wonder whether she is perhaps needing a higher dose of the Vetoryl rather than a break from it -- her symptoms sound more like a recurrence of Cushing's rather than a side effect of the medication...:o

I know you've already asked your vet whether a dosage change might be in order and the answer was "no," but is there any way in which you might possibly obtain the actual test results from Bonnie's monitoring ACTH's throughout the duration of her treatment? From our experiences here, we've discovered that some vets are simply not aware that the therapeutic ACTH range for a dog being treated with Vetoryl is not the same as the desired "normal" range for a dog without the disease. It is not uncommon for dogs to require dosage changes over time, so perhaps Bonnie needs some adjustment in order to keep her cortisol level under sufficient control. Any additional info that you can give us about Bonnie's dosing and testing history will be very helpful.

Thanks so much in advance,
Marianne

[zoesmom]

Hi and welcome -

Yes, Addy is right. She may just need a dose adjustment and that might well be an upwards one, or on to twice a day dosing if she's not already on that. Can't be sure without knowing when her last ACTH was and what the results were. So if you have or can get copies of the test and post the exact results (along with units of measurement) and the date of it, that would be a great help.

She might also need some additional testing to rule out hypothryoidism and diabetes. Does she have any other conditions or medications she takes? Everything you described, other than the cough, does sound like it might be her cortisol has crept up a bit too high. But then, the other conditions can have very similar symptoms. Has any recent labwork been done to rule them out? And has the vet checked her heart lately.

Also, did your vet tell you which kind of cushings Bonnie has. It is often possible to tell, based on the initial diagnostics (the LDDS - an 8 hour test and/or an abdominal ultrasound.) Most cases are pituitary, but just wondering if you know if it's adrenal or pituitary or if your vet even said. One other question. How much does Bonnie weigh. You'll get lots of support here. Glad you found us - Sue

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks for the welcomes...x

I will try and get the test results tomorrow.

I dont know which type of cushing's Bonnie has, I remember asking 4 years back when she first had the test and the vet said she did not know which type it was but the meds are the same in both sorts.

Bonnie takes no other meds and i'm not aware of any other illness.

A few months back the vet did listen to her heart and said its fine, she also did a wee test to check for infection but that was also ok.

I'm such a fool for thinking the vetoryl was to blame for Bonnie going down hill. I dont understand how they are listed as adverse effects.
Good job I came across this site :)

Denise

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Denise,

Welcome to you and Bonnie! :)

Not much I can add to what the others have said other than I question your vets knowledge about Cushing's and Trilo. Seeing the test results will help with that some, altho I find it odd she sees the signs in Bonnie as a side effect of Trilo. :confused: That caused a red flag to go off in my head. ;) I just read through some of the literature on Trilo and found nothing siting a return of Cushing's symptoms as a side effect. Strange....

Here is a link from our Helpful Resources section on Trilo:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185

If your vet is willing to listen and discuss thing with you, maybe you can show her this info. ;):)

I'm glad you found us and look forward to learning more about both of you as time passes. After four years, you and Bonnie are no longer alone. We will be with you all the way, here to listen, to talk, to share our knowledge and experience. You will find the best support here as well; we will hold your hand until it drips with sweat but you will never doubt we are by your side.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[apollo6]

Dear Denise , welcome.
How much does Bonnie weigh. It is very important to know what kind of cushing she has, that determines what course of treatment to take. Trilostane /Vetoryl is used for Pituitary cushing. Apollo weighs 10lbs and is on 10mg, but he just started in June.
There are three kinds of cushing: Pituitary, Adrenal(one adrenal gland is larger then the other-tumor) or Atypical.
See my thread as to diagnose.
If anything , maybe the medication is not working right. The symptoms are cushing not a side effect of Trilostane.
Hope this helps.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Everyone
You are all so very kind xxx

I spoke with vet today about getting Bonnies past test results. I was told she would write the results out for me but would not print out a copy of the result sheet !
She has asked me to take Bonnie in asap for ACTH test. I am taking her in the morning.

Could you please tell me what sort of test would tell which type Bonnie has ? Also if there is anything else I could ask for (tests etc ).

Bonnie weighs about 16kg

I copied this info about vetoryl

Treatment may unmask arthritis due to a reduction in endogenous corticosteroid levels.
A small number of reports have been received of sudden death during Trilostane treatment.
Other mild, rare, adverse effects include ataxia, hypersalivation, bloating, muscle tremors and skin changes.

it says about the bloating and tremors

thanks again for all the help xxx

[addy]

Dogs in the U.S. are handling Trilostane/Vetoryl somewhat differently than in other countries. We have not been using it as long, we start at lower doses and adjust up. Our California vet school U.C. Davis is reporting much different results than seen elsewhere. Not sure why.

Here is a report I copied regarding a U.S. and U.K. study on adverse affects. It is a bit long and keep in mind they have to list adverse reactions even if rare so don't get scared. I think it is important to see results of ACTH test, so good thing you have that scheduled.

Wee Bonnie will be fine, it will all get sorted out:) I guess our natural reaction is that if Bonnie was going to have side effects she would have had them sooner than 4 years which is why we all think it is dose related, but I guess medicine is not always logical


ADVERSE REACTIONS:

The most common adverse reactions reported are poor/reduced appetite, vomiting, lethargy/dullness, diarrhea, and weakness. Occasionally, more serious reactions, including severe depression, hemorrhagic diarrhea, collapse, hypoadrenocortical crisis or adrenal necrosis/rupture may occur, and may result in death.

In a US field study with 107 dogs, adrenal necrosis/rupture (two dogs) and hypoadrenocorticism (two dogs) were the most severe adverse reactions in the study. One dog died suddenly of adrenal necrosis, approximately one week after starting trilostane therapy. One dog developed an adrenal rupture, believed to be secondary to adrenal necrosis, approximately six weeks after starting trilostane therapy. This dog responded to trilostane discontinuation and supportive care.

Two dogs developed hypoadrenocorticism during the study. These two dogs had clinical signs consistent with hypoadrenocorticism (lethargy, anorexia, collapse) and post-ACTH cortisol levels of ≤0.3 µg/dL. Both dogs responded to trilostane discontinuation and supportive care, and one dog required continued treatment for hypoadrenocorticism (glucocorticoids and mineralocorticoids) after the acute presentation.

Additional adverse reactions were observed in 93 dogs. The most common of these included diarrhea (31 dogs), lethargy (30 dogs), inappetence/anorexia (27 dogs), vomiting (28 dogs), musculoskeletal signs (lameness, worsening of degenerative joint disease) (25 dogs), urinary tract infection (UTI)/hematuria (17 dogs), shaking/shivering (10 dogs), otitis externa (8 dogs),

respiratory signs (coughing, congestion) (7 dogs), and skin/coat abnormality (seborrhea, pruritus) (8 dogs).

Five dogs died or were euthanized during the study (one dog secondary to adrenal necrosis, discussed above, two dogs due to progression of pre-existing congestive heart failure, one dog due to progressive central nervous system signs, and one dog due to cognitive decline leading to inappropriate elimination). In addition to the two dogs with adrenal necrosis/rupture and the two dogs with hypoadrenocorticism, an additional four dogs were removed from the study as a result of possible trilostane-related adverse reactions, including collapse, lethargy, inappetence, and trembling.

Complete blood counts conducted pre- and post-treatment revealed a statistically significant (p <0.005) reduction in red cell variables (HCT, HGB, and RBC), but the mean values remained within the normal range. Additionally, approximately 10% of the dogs had elevated BUN values (≥40 mg/dL) in the absence of concurrent creatinine elevations. In general, these dogs were clinically normal at the time of the elevated BUN.

In a long-term follow-up study of dogs included in the US effectiveness study, the adverse reactions were similar to the short-term study. Vomiting, diarrhea and general gastrointestinal signs were most commonly observed. Lethargy, inappetence/anorexia, heart murmur or cardiopulmonary signs, inappropriate urination/incontinence, urinary tract infections or genitourinary disease, and neurological signs were reported. Included in the US follow-up study were 14 deaths, three of which were possibly related to trilostane. Eleven dogs died or were euthanized during the study for a variety of conditions considered to be unrelated to or to have an unknown relationship with administration of trilostane.

In two UK field studies with 75 dogs, the most common adverse reactions seen were vomiting, lethargy, diarrhea/loose stools, and anorexia. Other adverse reactions included: nocturia, corneal ulcer, cough, persistent estrus, vaginal discharge and vulvar swelling in a spayed female, hypoadrenocorticism, electrolyte imbalance (elevated potassium with or without decreased sodium), collapse and seizure, shaking, muscle tremors, constipation, scratching, weight gain, and weight loss. One dog died of congestive heart failure and another died of pulmonary thromboembolism. Three dogs were euthanized during the study. Two dogs had renal failure and another had worsening arthritis and deterioration of appetite.

In a long-term follow-up of dogs included in the UK field studies, the following adverse reactions were seen: hypoadrenocortical episode (including syncope, tremor, weakness, and vomiting) hypoadrenocortical crisis or renal failure (including azotemia, vomiting, dehydration, and collapse), chronic intermittent vaginal discharge, hemorrhagic diarrhea, occasional vomiting, and distal limb edema. Signs of hypoadrenocorticism were usually reversible after withdrawal of the drug, but may be permanent. One dog discontinued VETORYL Capsules and continued to have hypoadrenocorticism when evaluated a year later. Included in the follow-up were reports of deaths, at least 5 of which were possibly related to use of VETORYL Capsules. These included dogs that died or were euthanized because of renal failure, hypoadrenocortical crisis, hemorrhagic diarrhea, and hemorrhagic gastroenteritis.

Foreign Market Experience: The following events were reported voluntarily during post-approval use of VETORYL Capsules in foreign markets. The most serious adverse events were death, adrenal necrosis, hypoadrenocorticism (electrolyte alterations, weakness, collapse, anorexia, lethargy, vomiting, diarrhea, and azotemia), and corticosteroid withdrawal syndrome (weakness, lethargy, anorexia, and weight loss). Additional adverse events included: renal failure, diabetes mellitus, pancreatitis, autoimmune hemolytic anemia, vomiting, diarrhea, anorexia, skin reactions (rash, erythematous skin eruptions), hind limb paresis, seizures, neurological signs from growth of macroadenomas, oral ulceration, and muscle tremors.

For a copy of the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS), or to report adverse reactions, call Dechra Veterinary Products at (866) 933-2472.

INFORMATION FOR DOG OWNERS:

Owners should be aware that the most common adverse reactions may include: an unexpected decrease in appetite, vomiting, diarrhea, or lethargy and should receive the Client Information Sheet with the prescription. Owners should be informed that control of hyperadrenocorticism should result in resolution of polyphagia, polyuria and polydipsia. Serious adverse reactions associated with this drug can occur without warning and in rare situations result in death (see ADVERSE REACTIONS). Owners should be advised to discontinue VETORYL Capsules and contact their veterinarian immediately if signs of intolerance are observed. Owners should be advised of the importance of periodic follow-up for all dogs during administration of VETORYL Capsules.

EFFECTIVENESS:

Eighty-three dogs with hyperadrenocorticism were enrolled in a multi-center US field study. Additionally, 30 dogs with hyperadrenocorticism were enrolled in two UK field studies. Results from these studies demonstrated that treatment with VETORYL Capsules resulted in an improvement in clinical signs (decreased thirst, decreased frequency of urination, decreased panting, and improvement of appetite and activity). Improvement in post-ACTH cortisol levels occurred in most cases within 14 days of starting VETORYL Capsules therapy.

In these three studies, there were a total of 10 dogs diagnosed with hyperadrenocorticism due to an adrenal tumor or due to concurrent pituitary and adrenal tumors. Evaluation of these cases failed to demonstrate a difference in clinical, endocrine, or biochemical response when compared to cases of pituitary-dependent hyperadrenocorticism.

ANIMAL SAFETY:

In a laboratory study, VETORYL Capsules were administered to 8 healthy 6 month old Beagles per group at 0X (empty capsules), 1X, 3X, and 5X the maximum starting dose of 6.7 mg/kg twice daily for 90 days. Three animals in the 3X group (receiving 20.1 mg/kg twice daily) and five animals in the 5X group (receiving 33.5 mg/kg twice daily) died between Days 23 and 46. They showed one or more of the following clinical signs: decreased appetite, decreased activity, weight loss, dehydration, soft stool, slight muscle tremors, diarrhea, lateral recumbency, and staggering gait. Bloodwork showed hyponatremia, hyperkalemia, and azotemia, consistent with hypoadrenocortical crisis. Post-mortem findings included epithelial necrosis or cystic dilation of duodenal mucosal crypts, gastric mucosal or thymic hemorrhage, atrial thrombosis, pyelitis and cystitis, and inflammation of the lungs.

ACTH stimulated cortisol release was reduced in all dogs treated with VETORYL Capsules. The dogs in the 3X and 5X groups had decreased activity. The 5X dogs had less weight gain than the other groups. The 3X and 5X dogs had lower sodium, albumin, total protein, and cholesterol compared to the control dogs. The 5X dogs had lower mean corpuscular volume than the controls. There was a dose dependent increase in amylase. Post-mortem findings included dose dependent adrenal cortical hypertrophy.I probably should have copied the link but could not:confused:

Hang in there!!!!!

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks for the info addy

I am so confused :confused:

[labblab]

Over the last 9 months or so I have noticed that Bonnie is finding it hard to go for a walk and manage steps. She has increased trembling and is often panting. She is drinking more and has started doing mighty pools of wee in the house. She has also started to cough, and her belly seems bigger.

It is true that some of Bonnie's recent problems could be either medication side effects or Cushing's symptoms. However, the increased thirst and uncontrolled urination are not typical medication side effects and instead would be consistent with a recurrence of Cushing's. That is why I am thinking that her whole profile of problems is more likely the result of elevated cortisol. But the proof will be in the pudding once you get the ACTH results back! I'm very relieved that she will be tested tomorrow.

As far as additional tests, the manufacturers of Vetoryl recommend that a dog's electrolytes be checked every time an ACTH is performed. This involves a simple blood draw that tells you whether or not Bonnie's basic blood chemistries are in proper balance. And it would also be a good idea to test for diabetes, since it also causes excessive thirst and urination. Even though Bonnie was not diabetic in the past, it is not impossible for her to have developed that disease as well over time.

You've asked about tests that can identify whether Bonnie has pituitary or adrenal Cushing's. There are some diagnostic blood tests that can be performed prior to beginning Cushing's treatment that can give you an indication of the form of the disease. But since Bonnie has been treated with Vetoryl for four years now, I'm thinking that those test results would be inaccurate indicators at the present time. If Bonnie has an adrenal tumor that is causing her disease, then the tumor could be visualized via a high resolution abdominal ultrasound. But it sounds as though surgery is not an option for her regardless of the form of her Cushing's, so it may not be worth your while to pursue the ultrasound since it requires specialized imaging equipment that may not be available to your local vet. Also, in the U.K., I believe that Vetoryl is the medication of choice regardless of whether or not the Cushing's is caused by a pituitary or adrenal tumor. So your vet's choice of treatment would undoubtedly be the same, regardless.

I really do think you are taking the most helpful first step by requesting an ACTH. Once those results are "in," I think it will make it easier to determine the cause of Bonnie's problems. How long ago was her last ACTH performed?

Marianne

[addy]

I know you are, it is okay to be confused. One step at a time. At least the ACTH test will tell you what is going on with her cortisol, if it is out of range. So that is step number one, right?

With our pups, it seems there are always so many possibilities as to why something is happening. Take one step at a time.

Members in this group are really knowledgeable, they will all come along to guide you and give you really good info and advice. They really know their stuff!!!!!:)

It will get sorted out, really, it will. Make sure you have the vet write down the new ACTH results or give you the results, including any normal ranges so you can post them here.

Give wee Bonnie a hug for me,

Addy

[littleone1]

Hi Denise,

Corky and I also want to welcome you and Bonnie.

I briefly read through some of the posts. I didn't notice that anyone mentioned the possibility of a urinary tract infection, which is very common in our cushpups. If there haven't been any tests for this, this is something you might want to consider having tested.

Corky was also experiencing trembling when his thyroid level was too low.

Terri and Corky

[apollo6]

Dear Bonnie's parent , you asked what kind of cushing there are here is a breakdown.
In lbs Bonnie is 35.2 lbs

Treatment varies by the form of Cushing's disease diagnosed.

There are three types of canine Cushings disease: pituitary dependant hyperadrenocorticism, adrenal-based hyperadrenocorticism, and Atypical- iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism.

In pituitary dependant hyperadrenocorticism, a tiny pituitary tumor causes your dog's pituitary gland to malfunction. Normally, your dog's pituitary and adrenal glands work together to produce an appropriate balance of hormones. In pituitary dependant hyperadrenocorticism, your dog's pituitary gland begins to produce too much adrenocorticotrophic hormone (ACTH), because it can no longer respond to the adrenal glands, which produce blood cortisol. Your dog's adrenal glands respond by excreting too much blood cortisol. treated with Trilostane.

In adrenal-based hyperadrenocorticism, an adrenal tumor causes your dog's adrenal glands to overproduce blood cortisol. Adrenal-based hyperadrenocorticism is responsible for about fifteen percent of canine Cushings disease cases. may be surgical removed.

In iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism, canine Cushings disease occurs as the result of corticosteroid overdose. Corticosteroid overdose is a risk when your are using steroids to treat chronic conditions, such as allergies. Fortunately, iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism is reversible; you'll simply need to slowly wean your dog off of the corticosteroids.

Symptoms of Canine Cushings Disease
Symptoms of canine Cushings disease can be so vague and diverse that the disease can be difficult to spot.

•Excessive thirst
•Excessive urination
•"Accidents" in housetrained dogs
•Excessive appetite
•Stealing food, begging, and becoming unusually overpossessive of food
•A bloated, pot-bellied abdomen
•Weight gain
•Weight loss
•Lethargy
•Weakness in the hind legs
•Reluctance to jump
•Panting and overheating
•Thinning hair or hair loss
•Dull coat
•Dry skin
•Slow hair regrowth after grooming
•Thin, wrinkled, fragile, or darkened skin
•New susceptibility to infections, especially of the skin and urinary tract
•Diabetes
•Pancreatitis
•Seizures
Diagnosis and Treatment of Canine Cushings Disease
Your vet will need to perform tests to determine if your dog is suffering from canine Cushings disease, especially since many of these symptoms could be indicative of other illnesses. Urine tests can tell your vet how much blood cortisol is in your dog's blood. such as the ACTH stimulation test,
A chemistry panel is done to check organ function, generally in Cushing's Syndrome the ALP and ALT liver enzymes will be elevated, so will the blood glucose (blood sugar) and cholesterol, the BUN, a kidney enzyme, will be decreased.


an ultrasound can show if one or both adrenal glands are enlarged. (Hold off for now_Hormone tests), ( hold of these for now -low dose dexamethasone test, and high dose dexamethasone test,), can help your vet isolate the cause of your dog's canine Cushings disease.

Your vet should be giving you an actual copy of the tests for your records not hand writing it.

Please just take a breath. It can be very overwhelming at first. Read, ask questions and don't jump into treatment right away until you know all the facts. Ihope I have not confused you more.
Hugs from Sonja and Apollo

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

Corky and I also want to welcome you and Bonnie.

I briefly read through some of the posts. I didn't notice that anyone mentioned the possibility of a urinary tract infection, which is very common in our cushpups. If there haven't been any tests for this, this is something you might want to consider having tested.

Corky was also experiencing trembling when his thyroid level was too low.

Terri and Corky

Hi Terry
Bonnie had a test for urinary tract infection about 2 months ago, no infection was found.
Bonnie has had the trembling for a long time ( about 2 years ) and the vet said its the meds. I'm gonna be very mad with the vet if thats not true. I would not like to be trembling all day and I bet Bonnie is fed up with it.

Also another thing I forgot to say was about Bonnies cough. When I asked the vet about this she said Bonnie had a damaged wind pipe.
I thought that was odd but took the vets word for it. Bonnie has no trouble barking at the postman and her bark is just as loud as it ever was and she has no problem eating. Any thoughts on this ?

Just so its clear in my mind.... will all the problems Bonnie has now clear up when she gets the correct dose ? Or is it the case that other types of med will be needed to correct some of the problems ?

Thanks again for all the help x

[brandysmom]

Hi Denise,

I just started to read your thread. I want to say welcome to you and Bonnie. I am somewhat new to this site. It has been a great support network with tons of knowledgable people here. I have learned so much in such a short time. I am not familiar with the effects of Vetoryl. My girl is on Lysodren for Atypical Cushing's. I just wanted to respond to the coughing. How long has she been coughing? Is it an any particular time - after eating, during the night, etc? Please have your vet check her heart and lungs again. Coughing is the most common sign of congestive heart failure. When the heart starts to fail it can cause fluid to build up in the lungs and/or abdomen (swollen belly). I don't want to scare you, but I think it is something you should be aware of.

[labblab]

Also another thing I forgot to say was about Bonnies cough. When I asked the vet about this she said Bonnie had a damaged wind pipe. I thought that was odd but took the vets word for it. Bonnie has no trouble barking at the postman and her bark is just as loud as it ever was and she has no problem eating. Any thoughts on this ?

Just so its clear in my mind.... will all the problems Bonnie has now clear up when she gets the correct dose ? Or is it the case that other types of med will be needed to correct some of the problems ?

I'm wondering whether your vet may have diagnosed Bonnie with a damaged or collapsed trachea? As Brenna has said, coughing can be a symptom of congestive heart failure; tracheal issues can also cause coughing. Here's a link to a reply that was given on another member's thread that mentions this type of problem:

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?p=19102#post19102

Hopefully, Saskia will be by later on to personally discuss this in more detail with you.

As far as the resolution of all of Bonnie's symptoms, I'm afraid it will be a matter of "wait-and-see." Aside from the cough, they COULD all be associated with a cortisol level that is too high. So if Bonnie's ACTH results show that to be the case, the first thing I'd try is a Vetoryl dosage adjustment. But if any of the symptoms persist even when her cortisol is within the desired therapeutic range, then you'd start looking for alternative explanations. So it may be a while before you are able to gain all the answers to Bonnie's puzzle...

Marianne

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Denise,

and welcome from me as well to you and Bonnie :)

Okay, about the damaged/collapsed trachea. Did your vet actuallly diagnose it and if so, how? And if not, could you ask the vet why she would think it's a damaged/collapsed trachea?

Diagnosing a collapsed trachea is often a combination of symptoms, clinical findings and x-rays or endoscopy. With x-rays, you have to be careful to take an x-ray at the precise moment the dog exhales and another one at the precise moment the dog inhales. This to be able to see where the collapse is located, outside or inside the chest or both.

Some of the most obvious symptoms of a collapsed trachea are coughing,difficulty breathing and getting tired easily. The cough is a very distinct kind of cough. It sounds like a goose "onk"...(not sure what other geese say, but Dutch geese say "onk onk") The cough will usually appear after excercise (even little), when being excited, during/after drinking and will get worse when it's warm and humid.

When the trachea is also collapsed inside the chest area, this can cause heartenlargement and/or contribute to heartfailure.

Treatment for collapsed trachea is usually antibiotics to cure secundairy respiratory infections (dogs with collapsed trachea are very prone to those), broncodilators, coughsuppressants and steroids, depending on the stage and activity of the collapsed trachea and if there are or aren't any secundairy respiratory infections going on. There also is surgery but, and I am not up-to-date with the latest results, a few years ago 1 out of 5 dogs would be worse of post surgery. So surgery was seen as a very last option. (but again, this could have changed by now)

Apart from all the medical possibilities, a lot of positive change can come from "lifestyle" changing. The first and most important one being, maintaining a good weight, slightly below normal is what is reccomended in dogs with collapsed trachea. Also, never use a collar but always a harness on small breed dogs, even those that do not have collapsed trachea (yet). Keep vaccinations up-to-date to prevent as much as possible repiratory infections.
And restrict activity level and try to prevent excitement and stress. Keep the dog in a cool area when it's warm.

This was some general info on collapsed trachea. I hope it has been helpful and that with this info you can ask your vet some more specific questions regarding Bonnie's damaged/collapsed trachea.

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah,
The Netherlands.

[littleone1]

I wanted to reply to your post regarding the collapsed trachea, but Marianne and Saskia covered it very thoroughly. Corky has a collapsed trachea, and for quite a while, his breathing sounded, as I compare it to, like a foghorn. I have a friend whose dog also has one, and he has the coughing. I know that there are so many things that can cause problems for our furbabies. I hope you will be able to get some answers as to what is really going on with Bonnie.

You will know more after you get the results from the stim test, as to whether Bonnie's cortisol level is too high and she needs a dose adjustment.

[Squirt's Mom]

A practical note on trachea problems - use a harness not a collar for our babies. This will lessen the risk of damage via the collar and prevent pressure on the throat if damage has occurred. Just an FYI....

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[littleone1]

I wanted to add that I have Turbutrol to give Corky as needed. for his trachea. It is very expensive here in the states. I paid $90 for 20 pills.

I agree with Leslie about the harness instead of a collar. I recently did get a harness for Corky instead of using his collar, on the advice of his IMS.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Everyone xxxx
Thank you all for this kind help.
I took Bonnie to the vets today for her Acth test ( results will be in on Fri )
The vet examined Bonnie....It is indeed a collapsed trachea. The vet said she knows this due to the sound of the cough and by listning to her chest. She said its all upper chest:confused: she then said nothing could be done for that. She listened to her heart and said it sounds ok.
Bonnie now weighs 14kg
The vet said due to the limited range of pills made in different sizes its very hard to ajust the dose and get it spot on and if the dose is even a lil high it could kill her. She then went on to say that without seeing todays test results she feels that Bonnie is going down hill due to the Cushings getting worse. She also said that most dogs die within the first year of confirming Cushings and that Bonnie has done very well up till now.

I asked for a print out of the last 2 acth results and she said she would write the results only... and I could not have a copy because I cant be shown some of the info:confused: I said I want the copies and what on earth cant I be shown, she said it has the lab details and I cant see them:confused: I was so upset at what she had just told me about Bonnie that I agreed to just the writen results. I have no idea if thats the law in the UK and I will do my best to find this out as it seems very odd indeed.
For the last 2 tests the gap was 6 months as recommended by the vet. I used to take her every 3 months.
I cant make head or tails of these numbers but here they are.

May 2009
pre-85 (25-125)
post-132 (125-520)

Feb 2010
pre-408 (25-125)
post-877 (125-520)

Thats all she would give me.

Please could any other UK members tell me if you have a problem getting results :confused:

sorry if this post is a mess... my head is all over the place:(

[me and my twiglets]

btw
I found one of Bonnies pills this evening in the place she was when I gave her the pill yesterday :eek: I have never dropped any so can only assume that the pill did not go down and she spat it out, I never have problems giving her the pill.
If she missed yesterdays pill would it effect todays test results:o

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Denise,

The one missed dose, I don't think, would have a big impact on her stim results unless this missed dose was the one before the stim test.
But is your vet giving Bonnie's ACTH stim test 4-6 hours after her last dose of Vetoryl? If not, this could skew Bonnie's stim results.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[littleone1]

I know that the name brand only comes in certain doses, but Corky is taking Trilostane, which I have compounded. You might want to check on the web to see if there are any compounding pharmicies that you might be able to use, as they compound dosages other than the name brand.

Do you have an IMS near you? You might want to get a second opinion about the dosage and the collapsed trachea. Corky also had x-rays which showed the collapsed trachea. I hope you are able to get a second opinion.

I don't agree with her comment that many dogs with Cushings die within the first year. There are so many members on this forum who still have their dogs after having Cushings for many years.

Take a deep breath. I know this can be very frustrating and frightening. We are here for you. There are many others that have much more experience than I do, and I know that someone will be along that can give you some good advice.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

The one missed dose, I don't think, would have a big impact on her stim results unless this missed dose was the one before the stim test.
But is your vet giving Bonnie's ACTH stim test 4-6 hours after her last dose of Vetoryl? If not, this could skew Bonnie's stim results.

Love and hugs,
Lori

Hi Lori
Bonnie took her pill ok this morning at 6am then off to the vets for 10am and I collected her at noon.
thanks for your help
Denise

[SasAndYunah]

I will leave everything concerning Cushing's to the ones that know a lot more then I do. But I wanted to comment on the collapsed trachea issue...

Sorry for being so blunt, but your vet is dead wrong when she says there is nothing that can be done about a collapsed trachea. A collapsed trachea can't be cured but it needs to be treated. If left untreated it will get worse more rapidly and may result a lot sooner in lung and heart disease due to the restricted airflow and liverdisease due to the liver getting too little oxygen.

I personally would go see a specialist to get a confirmed diagnosis of collapsed trachea and to get more information about the location, the severity of the collaps, etc. A specialist would also know what medications to give such as for example a broncodilator and/or cough supressants. A specialist could also advise you to start give omega 3 fatty acids since it is a natural way to reduce inflammation. And managing inflammation is the cornerstone of the treatment. Also a specialist would tell you to start liversupport because many dogs with a collapsed trachea will devellop liverdisease. He would tell you to keep your dog calm and cool, keep the dog away from smoke and dust, to try and manage the weigth ( I know, difficult when dealing with Cushing's as well) Stress, anxiety and fear are enemies to a dog with a collapsed trachea. So looking into ways to (naturally) calm the dog would be wise as well.

So please, consider to take Bonnie to a specialist for her collapsed trachea and let yourself be well-informed about the treatment options, lifestyle changes, etc. My Boncuk had apart from other medical issues, Cushings and a collapsed trachea. The difficult part is that because of the Cushing's, they shouldn't get steroids but at the same time, a collapsed trachea, definately when it's more advanced, needs steroids. It's hard to watch a dog suffocate. With the right treatment, you can slow down the process considerably. My boncuk's trachea was, at diagnosis, collapsed over the entire length of the trachea (so both inside and outside the chest) for about 30%. Less then a year later, the collapse had progressed to 70%. It can be tricky to treat both conditions at the same time...so prevention is the absolute key here. When the condition is not well managed and the dog goes into an acute crisis, there is only one treatment, steroids. So you can see why prevention and knowledge about prevention and using the right drugs is so very important. And I understand that my Boncuk's collapse was pretty severe and hopefully Bonnie is nowhere near that. But you need to know where you stand in order to know how to treat and manage and to prevent the collapse from progressing faster...

And I don't want to confuse you further, really, just hope to be helpfullwith this information,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Denise,

Are your stim results in nmol/L; pre-408 (25-125) post-877 (125-520)? If so, then I am going to convert them to ug/dl, which we are used to seeing...so 408 = 14.78ug/dl and 877 = 31.78ug/dl, which is high for a cushing's pup. Bonnie should be 1.45ug/dl and 5.4ug/dl (40-150 nmol/L) and her post could go up as high as 9.1 (250 nmol/L) if clinical signs are well controlled. This information about stim testing can be found here: http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

Terri is correct about the Trilostane being compounded in different dosages. I don't know if these pharmacies can help you out or not.



Some members use these compounding pharmacies for their pups rx's: http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/
http://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/
http://www.centerpetpharmacy.com/

Love and hugs,
Lori

My non-cush pup Bear has a collapsed trachea also, and he suffers from a slight heart murmur too. His vet has told me there are numerous ways to treat his collapsed trachea, which alot of members have already given you this information, so I won't duplicate it.

Cushing's disease is NOT a death sentence for a pup. When a pup is being treated and controlled for this disease they can live out their normal lifespan and many of them do.

We are here for you and Bonnie, remember that, ok? ;):)

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Squirt's Mom]

:mad::mad: She then went on to say that without seeing todays test results she feels that Bonnie is going down hill due to the Cushings getting worse. She also said that most dogs die within the first year of confirming Cushings and that Bonnie has done very well up till now. :mad::mad:

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong! :mad: There is no sense in upsetting cush parents with this garbage...and that's exactly what it is! And she's even more pessimistic than most....most say 2 years! :rolleyes:

You just throw that comment in the trash where it belongs and forget about it! We have many pups here who are well past the 2 yr. mark so there is proof that this is just wrong and not worth worrying about. :)

Saskia is also right about treatments for a collapsed trachea. One of my little ones started having problems and the vet talked to me about what we would do if it was her trachea...so I know there are options and that treatment is needed.

In your title, you ask what to do for your Bonnie...IMHO, the first thing is to find another vet asap. I'm sorry but she really doesn't seem to be very willing to listen or explain, nor does she seem to be very compassionate, and certainly not versed in Cushing's or Trilo - as shown by the lack of control after 4 years of treatment. ;)

As for getting copies of test results, that may be a law or something in the UK. We have another member from there who is not able to get copies from her vet. Wonder if ya'll use the same one? :p In the states, we are able to check online and find the laws/guidelines for each state regarding getting copies. Perhaps there is something similar for there?

From our Helpful Resource section, here is a link to finding specialists in the UK:

The European College of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Companion Animals (ECVIM-CA):

http://www.ecvim-ca.org

Listing of ECVIM Diplomates ("Board-Certified" ECVIM Specialist Vets):
http://www.ecvim-ca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=83&Itemid=69

ECVIM Diplomates (Board-Certified Internal Medicine Specialists) are listed here by name:
http://www.ecvim-ca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71:diplomate-list&catid=43&Itemid=69

or http://www.ecvim-ca.org/images/stories/Diplomates.htm

ECVIM Diplomates (Board-Certified Internal Medicine Specialists) are listed here by Specialty:
http://www.ecvim-ca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82%3Adiplomate-list-spec&catid=43&Itemid=69


Hang in there!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

Hi Denise,

We do not give up easily around here, we are a stubborn bunch with determination and more than willing to take on the vet fight!!!!

I can't believe this is the vet that has treated your Bonnie for four years. What negativity:mad:

As the others have said, is it possible to find a specialist for Bonnie or another vet with more experience and compassion? I know that is rare in the States but hoping you can get another opinion.

We are here for you and please try not to dispair. Today must have been really hard for you.

Also, sometimes it is a partially collapsed trachia, so as it has been said, there are things you can do for Bonnie. You must put her in a harness straight away. Does she eat soft food or hard food? I switched my Koko to soft food and that also helped him.

Hugs,
Addy

[zoesmom]

I'm so sorry your vet upset you so much. That's just wrong. I have no idea if the law in the UK prohibits sharing lab results. But you are certainly right to try and find out. We have a few members from the UK, so quite possibly one of them will know. But it can't hurt to research that yourself, in the meantime.

As for the one year thing, that's ironic 'cause here in the States, the favorite thing to tell owners is 2 years. I can promise you that many (most) do live well beyond 1 and 2 years, when treated with the right drugs and following the proper protocol for monitoring them.

My own girl Zoe got another four good years on vetoryl (later, it was actually compounded trilostane, which I doubt is available to those of you in the UK.) .

So just based on that Feb '10 ACTH, it's clear that Bonnie's cortisol was not in a therapeutic range. So my guess is it's still not, although today's test results will be needed to confirm that. In fact, she was no where near being 'controlled' in Feb. on her current dosage. Wonder why on earth your vet ignored those numbers and did not increase her dose back in Feb . To convert your units of measurement to what we understand here, you divide by 27.59 to get ug/dl. And the range that is considered therapeutic in ug/dl's is 1.5 to 5.5 for trilo dogs, or up to 7.5 or so if there are no symptoms. As you can see, Bonnie was way above even that. So assuming this latest test shows similar results, Bonnie would need to have her dose increased. Her symptoms, other than the collapsed trachea, should improve on a higher dose. There's also the possibility of giving the dose twice a day for better control. Although usually, you don't want to just double a 60 mg. dose but rather give something like 45 mg. twice a day. But since that 45 mg may not be an option for you and also because I suspect Bonnie's cushings has really become full-blown again, 60 mg twice a day may work for her. That would depend on this latest ACTH mostly.

You should check out Master's marketing UK website (this is where I used to order vetoryl before it was approved here in the US). That should tell you the various strengths of capsules that are available in the UK. I know here in the states, Dechra (the mfr. of vetoryl) is now selling a capsule of 10 mg, I believe. That allows combining with the other sizes so that you can fine tune the dosage quite easily. As for the trachea, you have gotten good advice on that issue, too, from a couple of members who know. You don't want it to progress to the point where it's affecting her heart. But for now, I'd say, wait until you get today's results. Meanwhile, do the suggested research, start looking for a new vet, and also look into the tx options for the trachea. And know that we will be here to hand hold all the way!!! Hugs to Bonnie and you. Sue

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

We do not give up easily around here, we are a stubborn bunch with determination and more than willing to take on the vet fight!!!!

I can't believe this is the vet that has treated your Bonnie for four years. What negativity:mad:

As the others have said, is it possible to find a specialist for Bonnie or another vet with more experience and compassion? I know that is rare in the States but hoping you can get another opinion.

We are here for you and please try not to dispair. Today must have been really hard for you.

Also, sometimes it is a partially collapsed trachia, so as it has been said, there are things you can do for Bonnie. You must put her in a harness straight away. Does she eat soft food or hard food? I switched my Koko to soft food and that also helped him.

Hugs,
Addy

I feel so bad. I feel that I have let Bonnie down. If I had started searching info sooner she would be in better health now. I really dont understand why that vet is so negative. Until today I had no idea how serious the collapsed trachia was. :(

[me and my twiglets]

I'm so sorry your vet upset you so much. That's just wrong. I have no idea if the law in the UK prohibits sharing lab results. But you are certainly right to try and find out. We have a few members from the UK, so quite possibly one of them will know. But it can't hurt to research that yourself, in the meantime.

As for the one year thing, that's ironic 'cause here in the States, the favorite thing to tell owners is 2 years. I can promise you that many (most) do live well beyond 1 and 2 years, when treated with the right drugs and following the proper protocol for monitoring them.

My own girl Zoe got another four good years on vetoryl (later, it was actually compounded trilostane, which I doubt is available to those of you in the UK.) .

So just based on that Feb '10 ACTH, it's clear that Bonnie's cortisol was not in a therapeutic range. So my guess is it's still not, although today's test results will be needed to confirm that. In fact, she was no where near being 'controlled' in Feb. on her current dosage. Wonder why on earth your vet ignored those numbers and did not increase her dose back in Feb . To convert your units of measurement to what we understand here, you divide by 27.59 to get ug/dl. And the range that is considered therapeutic in ug/dl's is 1.5 to 5.5 for trilo dogs, or up to 7.5 or so if there are no symptoms. As you can see, Bonnie was way above even that. So assuming this latest test shows similar results, Bonnie would need to have her dose increased. Her symptoms, other than the collapsed trachea, should improve on a higher dose. There's also the possibility of giving the dose twice a day for better control. Although usually, you don't want to just double a 60 mg. dose but rather give something like 45 mg. twice a day. But since that 45 mg may not be an option for you and also because I suspect Bonnie's cushings has really become full-blown again, 60 mg twice a day may work for her. That would depend on this latest ACTH mostly.

You should check out Master's marketing UK website (this is where I used to order vetoryl before it was approved here in the US). That should tell you the various strengths of capsules that are available in the UK. I know here in the states, Dechra (the mfr. of vetoryl) is now selling a capsule of 10 mg, I believe. That allows combining with the other sizes so that you can fine tune the dosage quite easily. As for the trachea, you have gotten good advice on that issue, too, from a couple of members who know. You don't want it to progress to the point where it's affecting her heart. But for now, I'd say, wait until you get today's results. Meanwhile, do the suggested research, start looking for a new vet, and also look into the tx options for the trachea. And know that we will be here to hand hold all the way!!! Hugs to Bonnie and you. Sue

Is it true that if the dose was even a tiny bit high it would kill Bonnie ?
The vet said that today.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

We do not give up easily around here, we are a stubborn bunch with determination and more than willing to take on the vet fight!!!!

I can't believe this is the vet that has treated your Bonnie for four years. What negativity:mad:

As the others have said, is it possible to find a specialist for Bonnie or another vet with more experience and compassion? I know that is rare in the States but hoping you can get another opinion.

We are here for you and please try not to dispair. Today must have been really hard for you.

Also, sometimes it is a partially collapsed trachia, so as it has been said, there are things you can do for Bonnie. You must put her in a harness straight away. Does she eat soft food or hard food? I switched my Koko to soft food and that also helped him.

Hugs,
Addy

As Bonnie has had no xray or tests for the trachia, could the vet be way off and wrong ?
Is it true you can tell by the sound of the cough ?

[Harley PoMMom]

As Bonnie has had no xray or tests for the trachia, could the vet be way off and wrong ?
Is it true you can tell by the sound of the cough ?

Bear's cough is a distinctive "goose honk" and even the slightest pressure on his throat will make him cough. I believe this "goose honk" cough sound is very common with pups that have a collapsed trachea.

[Harley PoMMom]

Is it true that if the dose was even a tiny bit high it would kill Bonnie ?
The vet said that today.

Vetoryl blocks production of cortisol and to a lesser extent mineralocorticoids. Aldosterone is the principal of a group of mineralocorticoids. It helps regulate levels of sodium and potassium in your pups body–i.e. it helps your pup retain needed salt, which in turn helps control blood pressure, the distribution of fluids in the body, and the balance of electrolytes in the blood.

If the dose of Vetoryl/Trilostane is too high then a Cush-pup can get Addison's Disease. There are two types or degrees of Addison's - one is what is called Atypical Addison's which is when just cortisol production is affected and the other is more typical Addison's where the production of both cortisol and aldosterone are affected. Atypical Addison's is treated with just prednisone (or some other artifical glucocorticoid like dexamethasone or cortisone). Full Addison's is treated by replacing both the missing cortisol and the missing aldosterone.

If Addison's is not caught early then it can be lethal to a pup.

[addy]

I feel so bad. I feel that I have let Bonnie down. If I had started searching info sooner she would be in better health now. I really dont understand why that vet is so negative. Until today I had no idea how serious the collapsed trachia was.

Denise, honey, you did not let Bonnie down, you have been a good Mom, your VET let her down today and that was what I meant by we'll fight the vet with you for her by giving you information and support and whatever else you need.

Yes, usually if you press on their throat, in the right place it will make them goose cough, or sometimes, if you turn them on their back, they will cough. A cough can be many things and it is possible this vet is wrong, would not be the first time a vet is wrong. They sometimes cough after exercise, or just lay down, sometimes after a bad coughing spell, if you check the gums they might be blueish.

Denise, I did not mean to make you feel bad, I am mad at your vet for talking to you that way!! I tend to get overprotective:o

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Denise, honey, you did not let Bonnie down, you have been a good Mom, your VET let her down today and that was what I meant by we'll fight the vet with you for her by giving you information and support and whatever else you need.

Yes, usually if you press on their throat, in the right place it will make them goose cough, or sometimes, if you turn them on their back, they will cough. A cough can be many things and it is possible this vet is wrong, would not be the first time a vet is wrong. They sometimes cough after exercise, or just lay down, sometimes after a bad coughing spell, if you check the gums they might be blueish.

Denise, I did not mean to make you feel bad, I am mad at your vet for talking to you that way!! I tend to get overprotective:o

Addy

Hi Addy
You never made me feel bad;)
This whole thing is just bringing back memories. I lost my bestest boy Jock, a wee scottie dog to cancer 2 years ago. I had a real strong gut feeling all was not well, but the vets (he saw 2 ) both said he was fine... then months down the line cancer is found and its too late to do anything. I feel I let him down as well. Once bitten twice shy should have been my motto. Now i'm thinking I bet there was something that could have been done for him if only I had known that vets cant be trusted.
Sorry to ramble

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Denise,

Sorry it's took me so long to say welcome! Sorry to hear about the problems you have been having with the vets. You have nothing to feel guilty about. We have to trust our vets as they are supposed to know more than us, but as we find out, they don't know everything.

I lost my Spicey, who was 14, a few weeks ago and still can't believe she's gone but we had over three years since she was first diagnosed and we had a complicated Cushings journey.

I think it is up to the individual vet whether they give out results here in the UK and I'm not sure if there is any law about it. We have 5 or 6 vets in our practice and there are ones that I feel comfortable about asking for them and ones that I don't. They usually give me a printout of any inhouse blood tests that they do but just tell me the results of the ACTH tests that are done in external labs, even though one vet did once give me a lab printout in the beginning.

I think I would look for another vet, are there any more in your area, I have lots I could chose from if I needed to. I would ask them before you register if they would be willing to give you any results, you don't have to mention which vets you are at now until you actually register just say you are thinking of changing and would like some information.

Those last ACTH test results from February are very high for a dog that is being treated and I would have thought your vet would have done something about it at the time. We will have to wait and see what the latest results are.

Hope you get some answers soon.

Linda

[zoesmom]

Is it true that if the dose was even a tiny bit high it would kill Bonnie ?
The vet said that today.

Again, this is a red flag to me that your vet is a.) probably not as well versed in cushings as she should be and b.) that she sees fit to use scare tactics when she doesn't know what else to do.

First of all, a knowledgable vet will be familiar with proper dosing and monitoring protocols and will give the owner the information on what to watch for, as signs that the dose may be too high. And quite often, they will also supply you with prednisone, which will counter the effects of too high a dose if given soon after the signs of trouble. But those numbers that Bonnie had back in Feb. should have prompted your vet to do a dose increase then. SHE dropped the ball, not you. That pre 14 ug/dl and post 33 ug/dl (pre-408 nmol/L, post-877 nmol/L) from Feb. are as high or higher than we normally see in a dog at the time of diagnosis. I find it hard to understand why your vet just let those numbers go!!

Furthermore, if a dose is a tiny bit too high, you would start to see signs of that and a vet should know to tell you to stop the vetoryl, possibly give prednisone, and have an ACTH test - and sometimes an electrolyte test - to confirm if they're addisonian (the opposite of cushnoid. i.e not enough cortisol and where sometimes, other secondary hormones can be affected).

But when the vet and owner are are working as at team, a dose that is a tiny bit too high should NOT kill your dog. It's a matter of keeping a close eye on them - in the beginning of tx and whenever there's a dose change. A dog that goes addisonian on too much vetoryl should be fine. They may have a couple of rough days (with weakness, loss of appetite, loose stools, possibly vomiting) but most vetoryl dogs usually rebound quickly and adequately. Addisons - in a cush-treated dog - is not fatal if treated in a timely manner and with the proper monitoring. In fact, in some places in Europe, they still purposely induce addison's in cushings dogs because they feel it is easier to treat than the cushings.

So a dog who gets too much vetoryl will usually need a short break from the drug, and sometimes the pred. If they go really low, then they may need an additional drug and will have to wait until there is a return of symptoms, before they can resume vetoryl at a lower dose. We've only had a small handful of members whose dogs became permanently addisonian on vetoryl. IT IS RARE!!! So.....the chance of a dog dying from a vetoryl dose that is a tiny bit too high is miniscule. And that would only occur if the vet is clueless about what's happening and how to treat it. Now if a dose is WAY too high, then yes, it could be lethal if the dog becomes serriously addisonian and is not treated for that immediately. But what your vet is saying is just plain ol' scare tactics. Sounds like she's afraid of tweaking a dose because she probably hasn't had many - if any - cushings patients.

OK, I'll stop harping. I just couldn't let your vet's ridiculous statement go unaddressed. You are not to blame. This is why vets get paid, because they are supposed to know more than us. Not to worry tho' - you can still get Bonnie back on track. Will be waiting to see those results tomorrow. Hope you have options for switching vets, too? Sue

[zoesmom]

Just an added note. I'm not sure if the website i mentioned yesterday (Masters Marketing in the UK) is still available. I couldn't find it and perhaps they are no longer selling vetoryl caps since their US customers can now get it here in the States. But here is a link to Dechra in the UK:
http://www.dechra-eu.com/Default.aspx?ID=38&pcatid=PRIMARY4&catid=PROPGRP14&fid=PROPFIELD107

They are the manufacturer of vetoryl (trilostane) and this webpage shows that they have 10 mg, 30 mg, 60 mg and 120 mg capsules available in the UK. So it is possible to up a 60 mg. dose by adding just 10 mg capsules at a time. Going up to 90 mgs (using 30 + 60 mg caps would be a big jump and may or may not be too much of an increase, if that turns out to be what Bonnie needs.) But certainly, you could easily up her dose in 10 mg increments (adding one or more 10 mg to the 60 mg caps) to achieve better control. So there ARE options for tweaking a dose such as Bonnies. Again, let's see where she stands on this latest ACTH. Sue

[Milo&me]

hi,
I'm in the UK too (and new to this site which is fab) so if you ever need to talk to someone etc who gets the frustrations of Cushings in the UK just give me a shout!

Vickey (and Milo)

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,


Those last ACTH test results from February are very high for a dog that is being treated and I would have thought your vet would have done something about it at the time. We will have to wait and see what the latest results are.


Linda

Hi Linda
Thanks for all the info and help.
I'm still in shock about my vet, what on earth is she playing at. What makes it even worse is that shes been saying the past results have been stable so bring Bonnie in every 6 months instead of 3.
Any idea what dose she should be on, going by the last results ? I just want to be better informed next time I speak to the vet.
To be fair to the vet, I now remember her saying the last results were a bit high but not enough for a dose increase, so I thought no more about it.
thanks again
Denise

[me and my twiglets]

hi,
I'm in the UK too (and new to this site which is fab) so if you ever need to talk to someone etc who gets the frustrations of Cushings in the UK just give me a shout!

Vickey (and Milo)

Hi Vickey
Thats great. Thank you
Denise

[me and my twiglets]

Bear's cough is a distinctive "goose honk" and even the slightest pressure on his throat will make him cough. I believe this "goose honk" cough sound is very common with pups that have a collapsed trachea.

How do they get a collapsed trachea ?

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Denise,

You have nothing to feel bad about...not with Bonnie, not with the baby you lost. We have every right to believe our vets know more than we do...but that isn't always the case when it comes to complicated conditions like Cushing's. Many of us have had to face the sad fact that a beloved long-time vet just wasn't equipped to handle Cushing's. The vet is the one who let you and your babies down...not you, honey.

At one time I was looking for a vet in the area where my sis lives so Squirt would have one close by. I talked to 14 vets and of them, only 1 treated Cushing's. One out of 14! The key is that the other 13 knew they couldn't, or didn't want, to deal with it and were honest. It's the vets who are arrogant and refuse to listen or learn, who won't admit they don't know, that are dangerous for our cush babies.

To me, the key to a good vet is one who listens and includes me in what they are doing/thinking. I had rather have one tell me they don't know then take the steps to find out than one who acts as if they know all. ;)

Now put that guilt away...you have no right to have it. I am the Queen of Guilt here so I would know! :D

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

A thought just hit me...I hope you understood all the :mad::mad: faces on my first post was for the VET not you, sweetie. :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Denise,

Me again! :D

Here are some links I found on collapsed trachea that may be of benefit to you:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2096&aid=410

http://www.web-dvm.net/collapsingtrachea.html

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/tracheal.htm

From: http://www.vetinfo.com/dtrachea.html

For some reason, the rings are not stiff enough in some dogs and they can't hold the trachea open against the negative air pressure created during respiration. The portion of the trachea that is not stiff is sucked into the airway, partially obstructing it and leading to irritation and coughing. This happens on inspiration when the portion of the trachea affected is in the neck region and on expiration if the trachea inside the chest itself is the problem. The irritation is self perpetuating, since coughing and increased respiratory efforts lead to further irritation and worsening of clinical signs. Eventually, damage can occur to the lungs, larynx or even upper airways (nasal passages and soft palate regions). Part of the problem is anatomical, but not all dogs with identifiable tracheal collapse show significant clinical signs, so other factors must be partially responsible. Obesity, irritants, allergies, obesity, concurrent heart failure, bacteria, viruses and obesity can all contribute to the problem, as well. If a pet owner smokes.

Hope these help!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Harley PoMMom]

How do they get a collapsed trachea ?


The cause remains unknown, although there may be many factors involved. The most likely cause is abnormal synthesis of the cartilage that is part of the structure of the trachea.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/tracheal-collapse-collapsing-trachea/page1.aspx

Bear's collapsed trachea is mild. I do have a harness for him and he loves wearing it. In fact once a friend went to take him outside to go potty and didn't know that he wears a harness and NOT a collar and went to put a slip-collar on him and Bear refused to have that slip-collar put around his neck!

Usually the only time Bear "honks" or coughs is when Alex the bad cat is picking on him, this makes Bear so mad! I have to step in the middle of this and scold Alex...he is a bad cat!!!

Love and hugs,
Lori

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Denise,

two things:


As Bonnie has had no xray or tests for the trachia, could the vet be way off and wrong ?
Is it true you can tell by the sound of the cough ?

Eventhough the cough is very typical, it always should be officially diagnosed with for example x-rays. Not just for the sake of diagnosing alone but also to know where you stand. Where is the collapse located, how severe is the collapse, etc. This will give you a reference situation in case other x-rays are needed down the line...without a "starting" place you won't know how much or how fast it has progressed for example.

And secondly, I have learned throughout my life to always make sure I am well-informed...about everything :D And it's been a question around here for a while now, if vets in the UK are required (by law or that there are guidelines for good practice, etc) to give copies of testresults. So, if I were you, I would search for that answer. (knowing the answer will only empower you in discussions with your vet and others) A good place to start might be a simple mail with this question to the RCVS at http://www.rcvs.org.uk/

Saskia and Yunah :)

[me and my twiglets]

Again, this is a red flag to me that your vet is a.) probably not as well versed in cushings as she should be and b.) that she sees fit to use scare tactics when she doesn't know what else to do.

First of all, a knowledgable vet will be familiar with proper dosing and monitoring protocols and will give the owner the information on what to watch for, as signs that the dose may be too high. And quite often, they will also supply you with prednisone, which will counter the effects of too high a dose if given soon after the signs of trouble. But those numbers that Bonnie had back in Feb. should have prompted your vet to do a dose increase then. SHE dropped the ball, not you. That pre 14 ug/dl and post 33 ug/dl (pre-408 nmol/L, post-877 nmol/L) from Feb. are as high or higher than we normally see in a dog at the time of diagnosis. I find it hard to understand why your vet just let those numbers go!!



I'm so mad with that vet ! I also find it very hard to understand.
My heads hurting just thinking about it:confused:

[zoesmom]

shes been saying the past results have been stable so bring Bonnie in every 6 months instead of 3.
Any idea what dose she should be on, going by the last results ? I just want to be better informed next time I speak to the vet.
To be fair to the vet, I now remember her saying the last results were a bit high but not enough for a dose increaseDenise

Denise -
It's probably premature to comment on dosing until you get those new ACTH numbers. But I understand your wanting to be prepared to ask the right questions. And I'd be surprised if Bonnie's numbers weren't still way up there. So I'll comment (but don't quote me until we know what those new results show.)

Bonnie is now 14 kg (or about 41 lbs.). Dechra recommends a starting dose of 1 - 3 mg/kg (at least here in the States). One school here - Univ of Calif. at Davis - is even more conservative, suggesting 1 mg/lb to start. At Bonnie's weight, however, she has been getting about 4 mg/kg - for four years at that. So she's already above the standard dosing protocol, which might explain why your vet was so hesitant to up her dose.

BUT, just so you know - originally, Dechra's recommended dosing range was 2 - 10 mg/kg. On this forum, it was pretty obvious that for a starting dose, at least, it was best to start at the low end of that range. My own lab mix, Zoe, was started around 6 mg/kg and she did have trouble at first. We had to lower her dose considerably and then slowly increase it back up. Eventually, she settled in at a daily dose which equalled 10 mg/kg. (she weighed 37+ kg and took a daily total of 360 mg. - 180 mg x 2/day) And it didn't KILL her. That said, most dogs don't require that high of a dose for their weight. But all dogs are different and your Bonnie(like my Zoe) could be one that requires a bit more to keep her cortisol in check. (One reasonfor that might be that she has adrenal based cushings, which is why I asked if the vet knew which kind. On the other hand, my Zo had pituitary cushings, so that's not always the explanation) But I just mention this as proof that you have alot more upwards wiggle room when it comes to Bonnie's dosing.

It's never a good idea to make a big increase all at once. Any dose increases should be made slowly and cautiously and then an ACTH test should be done, just as at the beginning - i.e. 10-14 days into the new dose, barring any problems.

Assuming Bonnie's cortisol is still way up there, you could go any number of ways. One option might be to try twice a day dosing. Did her symptoms seem worse later in the day? That could be something like I mentioned before - 40 mg twice a day (30 mg + 10 mg caps). Another option might be 60 mg in the am. and 30 mg in the p.m. Or if you were to stick with once a day dosing, then I think a good starting place might be to order a bunch of 10 mg caps, and begin with 70 mg (your 60's + a 10 mg) or possibly a 60 with two 10 mgs. to equal 80 mg. It would depend on how high her cortisol is right now. And we will know that tomorrow, right?

We DO know that 60 mg. was not coming close to controlling her cushings 6 mos. ago so if that has continued, she might well end up on 90mg/day or 120mg/day. It's just hard to say right now. It's a matter of little bumps up and see how it goes before doing another bump up. If you understand that and learn what to watch for and what to do if you see signs of low cortisol, it should not be scary - nor fatal.

But the safest approach would be to start with slightly more than she's been getting, try that for the first 2 weeks, do the required acth, and then reassess, based on what that acth shows at that point.

I am still shaking my head in wonder that your vet said that her results in Feb. were just "a bit high but not enough for a dose increase." That is just plain wrong and tells me that she isn't up to par on her cushings knowledge. I'd urge you to seek a new vet, asap. Sue

Here's a link to Dechra's vetoryl brochure (US version but am sure there's a UK version too.)
http://www.dechra-us.com/Files/dechraUSA/downloads/Vetoryl_Technical.pdf

There is probably the same or a similar info brochure in the box of capsules you're using. Do you have to get them directly thru your vet in the UK or are you able to order them on your own - like online? Just curious. Because she might try to say she can't get the 10 mg caps - which I seriously doubt would be true. If they make 'em and sell 'em in the UK, she oughta be able to get them for you.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

two things:



Eventhough the cough is very typical, it always should be officially diagnosed with for example x-rays. Not just for the sake of diagnosing alone but also to know where you stand. Where is the collapse located, how severe is the collapse, etc. This will give you a reference situation in case other x-rays are needed down the line...without a "starting" place you won't know how much or how fast it has progressed for example.

And secondly, I have learned throughout my life to always make sure I am well-informed...about everything :D And it's been a question around here for a while now, if vets in the UK are required (by law or that there are guidelines for good practice, etc) to give copies of testresults. So, if I were you, I would search for that answer. (knowing the answer will only empower you in discussions with your vet and others) A good place to start might be a simple mail with this question to the RCVS at http://www.rcvs.org.uk/

Saskia and Yunah :)

Thanks for the link and info

I will send e,mail and find out.

[me and my twiglets]

There is probably the same or a similar info brochure in the box of capsules you're using. Do you have to get them directly thru your vet in the UK or are you able to order them on your own - like online? Just curious. Because she might try to say she can't get the 10 mg caps - which I seriously doubt would be true. If they make 'em and sell 'em in the UK, she oughta be able to get them for you.

Thanks for giving me an idea about Bonnies dose.

When Bonnie first got cushings I had no idea you could get the meds online... That vet never told me so I got the meds from her. I now get the meds online, however the vet charges about £15 for giving out the perscription.
The online store has the full range.. I just checked;)

My mind is working over time now:eek:
Maybe the vet knows that Bonnie has not got long and thats why she is not bothered with the dose or going into detail about the collapsed trac.

Just a thought.. I came across something interesting today. Is it true that you can give a higher dose every other day so its not too strong ? I'm just getting clued up for that vet tomorrow.

[zoesmom]

Well, unless the vet is keeping secrets from you, then treating Bonnie's cushings appropriately could possibly give her lots more time. We've had cush pups here who've lived to 16, even 17. I'm not familiar with the ramifications of a collapsed trachea, but it sounds to me like there are some good tx options for that, too. And perhaps that is another area where your vet may have dropped the ball. Sounds like the sooner it's addressed, the better for the dog.

As far as the alternate day dosing, we've had just a very few members do that. To me, it doesn't seem like the best choice, simply because the drug effect peaks at around 4 - 6 hours and then starts to diminish in the body after that. So this approach would put the dog on a roller coaster ride, so to speak. One day of good control with cortisol rebounding the next day, when they get no pill. The usual regime is once or twice a day dosing, with twice a day working best for dogs whose symptoms seem to return in the evening (or in the 12 - 24 hout post pill period.)

As to which type of cushings Bonnie might have, your vet is right about one thing. It doesn't make a lot of difference because in the UK, you only have the tx option of trilostane (vetoryl). Whereas here in the states, we have lysodren, which for most dogs with adrenal-based cushings, is the usual choice. And oftentimes, those dogs need a longer loading period (with lysodren) and/or a much higher dose (of lysodren or trilostane) than a dog with PDH. I don't know if they do adrenalectomies for that type of cushings in the UK. Here, that is another tx option for dogs with adrenal tumors. Of course, that is a risky surgery and not always a possibility for older dogs or dogs with other complicated medical conditions. If successful, it can provide a permanent cure to that type of cushings. For Bonnie, with the trachea problem, I doubt that would be a possibility for her anyway.

So you just have one choice of drug and that would mean it is less impt. to know which kind of cushings she has. However, an adrenal tumor might be the reason why she is not being well-controlled on a fairly typical dose for her size. But you don't really need to know that in order to treat her. You just need to know if her dose is doing the job - which it wasn't - at least in Feb. And should have been increased accordingly. If the vet did an LDDS (8 hr. suppression test) to diagnose her, that will sometimes tell which kind of cushings it is. Not always. Beyond that, the next best way to know is an abdominal ultrasound - it's big bang for the bucks as they can look at all the abdominal organs, besides the adrenals. In a case of adrenal cushings, one adrenal will be bigger than the other. In pituitary, they are pretty much the same size (whether normal or enlarged.) But I can't see any value in your doing those kinds of procedures on Bonnie. She's been at this for four years and the best thing at this point is to just make sure her drug dose is doing its job in keeping her cushings in check. ;) Sue

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I am smiling from ear to ear because you are getting such good advice and isn't Zoe's Mom Sue a fountain of knowledge??:D

Of course, EVERYONE is giving you good info!!!!:D:D I get warm fuzzy feelings inside from it all. We have our own village to help our pups!!!!! And it is global!!!

Your head may hurt right now, but it will all sink in.


Denise, it is going to be alright. Just switching to a harness whenever I take my Koko out, even if it is a five minute thing, helped him alot. I try to keep his collar off as much as possible.

Well, I am done chiming in, I just am so proud of all of our members, I think this gal is gonna burst!!!!:D:D:D You all are the best!!!

Give wee Bonnie a hug from me,

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

I am smiling from ear to ear because you are getting such good advice and isn't Zoe's Mom Sue a fountain of knowledge??:D

Of course, EVERYONE is giving you good info!!!!:D:D I get warm fuzzy feelings inside from it all. We have our own village to help our pups!!!!! And it is global!!!

Your head may hurt right now, but it will all sink in.


Denise, it is going to be alright. Just switching to a harness whenever I take my Koko out, even if it is a five minute thing, helped him alot. I try to keep his collar off as much as possible.

Well, I am done chiming in, I just am so proud of all of our members, I think this gal is gonna burst!!!!:D:D:D You all are the best!!!

Give wee Bonnie a hug from me,

Addy

This is an amazing place. Thank you all very much for all the help and info.:D I dont know what I would do without you all.

Great big hugs to you all

Denise and Bonnie xxx

[zoesmom]

OOPS, I see I miscalculated on Bonnie's weight in lbs. Shouldn't do math while I'm enjoying a glass of wine!:o So clearly not the fountain of knowledge that Addy said. (But thank you anyway, Addy:p) Her 14 kg x 2.2 = 31 lbs or so, since losing the weight. In any case, that doesn't change things much. She was still taking about 4 mg of trilo/kg of wt. But thinking about it, with the weight loss, has the vet checked her blood glucose (i.e. for diabetes?) That isn't a huge weight loss (think you said she was 17 kg before.) But if she's eating well and yet losing weight, plus the thirst and peeing, that might be something else to have checked. Hope it wouldn't be that but can't hurt to rule it out. Did you say anything about her appetite. I forget. Sue

[apollo6]

Getting good input from everyone.:D
Hang in there. We are here to help and just listen when you need to sound off.

[me and my twiglets]

OOPS, I see I miscalculated on Bonnie's weight in lbs. Shouldn't do math while I'm enjoying a glass of wine!:o So clearly not the fountain of knowledge that Addy said. (But thank you anyway, Addy:p) Her 14 kg x 2.2 = 31 lbs or so, since losing the weight. In any case, that doesn't change things much. She was still taking about 4 mg of trilo/kg of wt. But thinking about it, with the weight loss, has the vet checked her blood glucose (i.e. for diabetes?) That isn't a huge weight loss (think you said she was 17 kg before.) But if she's eating well and yet losing weight, plus the thirst and peeing, that might be something else to have checked. Hope it wouldn't be that but can't hurt to rule it out. Did you say anything about her appetite. I forget. Sue


Hi Sue

Sorry... 17kg just popped in my head at the time of writing that post.
Bonnie had put on weight and I remember the vet telling me off... so the 17kg stuck in my head. That must have been a year or so ago. I have been cutting her food down. Bonnie is losing the weight little by little. When Bonnie was weighed this week the vet said she had lost a lil more since the last time she saw her, but said she is still overweight.
Bonnie never had a weight problem until she got the cushings.
So I hope its just my cutting the food down.

[me and my twiglets]

Getting good input from everyone.:D
Hang in there. We are here to help and just listen when you need to sound off.

Thank you xxxx

Wow I can sound off...:D:D:D:D

That frigging vet is a stupid twat, and I would love to go poke her in the eye:cool::D:D:D:D How dare she put my wee Bonnie at risk...poke poke poke:D:D:D

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Denise,

You've had lots of good advice and have a better idea of what to ask the vets when the latest results come through. If you do need to increase I would do it gradually as the others have said. I will be interested to hear what reply you get from the email about obtaining test results. It would be good if you get a reply before you speak to your vet again so you can tell her what you want to know. I am on holiday for a week from tomorrow so will check back then to see what they said.

Linda

[me and my twiglets]

Hi everyone
The vet just phoned with the results :eek::eek::eek::eek:
In the limited time I have been on this forum, I think you have all given me enough help and info for me to think todays result is very odd.... I even phoned back to confirm it:confused:

pre 26.2
post 32.3

That seems like a mighty drop to me, but maybe I'm wrong:confused:

The vet said she wants to put Bonnie on a 40mg dose:confused:
Why/how :confused: is that good or bad ?
also she now thinks Bonnie has a problem with her chest, and it might be a good idea to x-ray

thanks again everyone xxxxxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

You've had lots of good advice and have a better idea of what to ask the vets when the latest results come through. If you do need to increase I would do it gradually as the others have said. I will be interested to hear what reply you get from the email about obtaining test results. It would be good if you get a reply before you speak to your vet again so you can tell her what you want to know. I am on holiday for a week from tomorrow so will check back then to see what they said.

Linda

I just phoned the RVCS and was told the vet should give me copies of any tests I ask for, but I might have to pay.
He also thought it very odd I was having a problem with this.
He has told me to put the request in writing and inform the vet I have spoke to the RVCS.

If she still wont give me copies the RVCS want me to call them back and they will want to look into it:D

Here is the info he pointed me to;

7. At the request of a client, veterinary surgeons must provide copies of any relevant clinical records; this includes relevant records which have come from other practices, if they relate to the same animal and the same client. It does not include records which relate to the same animal but a different client. Where any significant expense is involved in providing such copies, as there might be, for example, with the provision of radiographs, a charge can be made. Expense should not be a reason for declining to provide copies.

[littleone1]

Hi Denise,

I'm so sorry that you're having so many problems with your vet. I'm glad you were able to get some answers about getting copies of Bonnie's test results.

As Sue mentioned, there might be other issues that Bonnie is having. You might also want to have Bonnie checked for a urinary tract infection.

Corky just started taking 40mg of Trilo yesterday and he weighs 18.13 pounds.

I hope that Bonnie's issues will be resolved soon.

Terri

[zoesmom]

todays result is very odd.... I even phoned back to confirm it:confused:

pre 26.2
post 32.3

That seems like a mighty drop to me, but maybe I'm wrong:confused:

x


You're right Denise. That is very odd, unless it's in ug/DL, rather than nmol/L. But that would also be odd, with you being in the UK and the previous tests being in nmol/L. Unless this is from a different lab that is using ug/DL . . . . or your vet converted them for you, knowing you were viewing this website! :p

Anyway, we need to know what those units of measurement are. If it's ug/dl, then Bonnie is still high and in need of a higher dose. If it's nmol/L, then she is very low and in need of a lower dose, possibly even a break from the trilo. Can you call back and ask, or possibly you'll be picking up the test copies soon?? ;) Sue

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Denise,

I was going to say the same as Sue! I think labs only use nmol/l here, but check anyway, so those results would be low which is confusing as the February ones were so high!

It was interesting what the RVCS had to say and I can't see that there would be any expense in giving you a copy other than taking a photocopy!

Linda

[me and my twiglets]

You're right Denise. That is very odd, unless it's in ug/DL, rather than nmol/L. But that would also be odd, with you being in the UK and the previous tests being in nmol/L. Unless this is from a different lab that is using ug/DL . . . . or your vet converted them for you, knowing you were viewing this website! :p

Anyway, we need to know what those units of measurement are. If it's ug/dl, then Bonnie is still high and in need of a higher dose. If it's nmol/L, then she is very low and in need of a lower dose, possibly even a break from the trilo. Can you call back and ask, or possibly you'll be picking up the test copies soon?? ;) Sue


I just phoned back and I was told nmol/L

Its very odd because I had a very very strong urge to stop Bonnies pills as I felt they were doing her harm... thats how I came cross this forum when I typed "stop giving vetoryl" I had been asking the angels to help me so maybe they did:)

A lil ramble:p

When my mum passed away I had a very spiritual experience. Ever since I seem to get results when something affects me deeply, most being about my 2 twiglets Bonnie and Mactavish, and my sweet lil Jock who has now passed... end of ramble;)

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

I was going to say the same as Sue! I think labs only use nmol/l here, but check anyway, so those results would be low which is confusing as the February ones were so high!

It was interesting what the RVCS had to say and I can't see that there would be any expense in giving you a copy other than taking a photocopy!

Linda

Just out of interest, are you able to get your results without a problem ?
I hope to be able to take the letter in person to the vet later today (still need to write it) I will write that I want the copies tomorrow as they are open 1/2 day on Sats.
I'm so confused about all this, cant think what her reasons could be but at least I know she HAS to give me them:D

[SasAndYunah]

Denise,

I am so very glad you contacted the RVCS and with the outcome of the contact :D You did not only do yourself, but other UK members too, a huge favor. Thanks for that! :)

With the help of all the actual copies of the testresults, the Cushing's savvy people here, will be able to help you figure everything out :)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[me and my twiglets]

Just a thought while I'm still on line.

I have been taking more notice of when Bonnie becomes less active and seems worse. It looks to me like its a few hours after her pill. She was bright as a button this morning but seems stressed and slow and breathing heavy now.

Is her dose change( what ever it turns out to be ) very urgent ?

I dont want to take Bonnie back to that vet and I have not looked for a new one as yet.

Thanks again for all the kind help
xxxxxxxxxxxx

[labblab]

Denise, if these new ACTH results are to be believed ("converted" results in ug/dl are pre: .94, post: 1.17), then I do think you need to follow your gut instinct and completely stop giving Bonnie the Vetoryl for the time being. Here is a quote from Dechra's U.S. Product Insert re: extremely low ACTH results:


If the ACTH stimulation test is <1.45 μg/dL (<40 nmol/L) and/or if electrolyte imbalances characteristic of hypoadrenocorticism (hyperkalemia and hyponatremia) are found, VETORYL Capsules should be temporarily discontinued until recurrence of clinical signs consistent with hyperadrenocorticism and test results return to normal (1.45-9.1 μg/dL or 40-250 nmol/L). VETORYL Capsules may then be re-introduced at a lower dose.

The U.S Product Insert is a bit more specific about this than is the current U.K. Product Datasheet. Here's a link to the entire U.S. insert:

http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

I must agree that I am quite surprised at this low ACTH result compared to the highly elevated test in February, especially in view of her overall symptom profile. But when it comes to the possibility of a cortisol level that may be too low, you'd much rather be safe than sorry. And since you say that Bonnie is visibly acting "off" after being given the medication, I really think you'd best discontinue it altogether until she can be seen by a new vet. If she is indeed overmedicated, you can be risking very serious consequences if her cortisol goes lower or her electrolytes are unbalanced. The Product Insert discusses these risks in greater detail, so please do take a look at it.

Marianne

[zoesmom]

Aha! So we have a dog with low cortisol. That's why it's not good to jump to conclusions. But it is a mystery that she was so high in Feb. and now is low. Just to make sure. Are the tests alwalys done withthe same consistency - that is normally about 4 -6 hours post - pill? But as long as they are doing them with the same timing, so you aren't comparing apples to oranges.

Those numbers convert to about .9 pre and 1.1 post (in ug/dl). So she is below the recommended range for a trilo dog (approx. 1.5 - 5.5 ug/dl) Some dogs do ok running a little low and with these numbers, it's good that she wasn't doing worse - with vomiting, diarrhea, lethargy. However, for her, she may just be borderline addisonian. Addison symptoms also include increased thirst and you did say she has had that. How is she eating lately. If decently, then that's a good sign.

Still, I think you should get her electrolytes checked, in view of those numbers. It could be that her sodium and potassium are a bit out of whack. Since she's not doing too poorly, they may be ok, and she will probably just need a few days off the med, and then a reduction in dose. Possibly a few doses of prednisone would make her feel better, for the time being. But that is what I'd ask for first - an electrolyte check. And in the meantime, hold off on any more vetoryl until things are sorted out. I would think 30 - or yes 40 or 45 mg - might be what she needs, given those numbers.

It's pretty strange that her Feb. numbers were so out of control and that now she's so low. If she spits pills out, maybe she spit one out before the Feb. test, but even missing one shouldn't have sent those #'s that high. The fact that you think she might have spit one out the day before this last test means her #'s might actually have come back even lower if she'd taken it.

There's no explaining why these things happen sometimes. My Zoe always took a high dose and yet we could never get her numbers under 5. And then one summer, she suddenly became lethargic and very miserable and weak acting and so I took her in for an ACTH, and much to mine and our vet's surprise, she'd dropped to numbers very similar to these latest ones of Bonnie's. We did a reduction in dose for awhile, but then her #'s crept back up and she eventually went back to the dose that she had been on for so long and had no more episodes of low cortisol. To this day, I have no idea why that happened. But that's life with a cush pup. Sometimes unpredictable. Hope you make some progress with the battle to get the test results!!! Sue

[me and my twiglets]

what sort of test is a electrolytes ?

I'm sooooooo confused:(

[labblab]

The electrolytes are basic blood chemistries, and they are checked via a simple blood draw. As Sue has said, the levels of sodium and potassium are the two levels that are typically the most important in determining whether or not a dog is experiencing problems as a result of an Addisonian episode secondary to overmedication.

Actually, per Dechra's published monitoring protocol, your vet should already have performed this test yesterday at the same time that the ACTH was done. So when you request all of Bonnie's test results, you can check to see whether or not it WAS done. However, as long as Bonnie is eating and drinking properly and is not suffering from vomiting or diarrhea, I think it's most likely that her electrolytes are OK at the moment.

Marianne

[me and my twiglets]

The vet now has the letter;)
In the time it took me to walk home from the vets I missed 2 calls from her. She said results will be ready for me to collect on Monday.

[me and my twiglets]

The electrolytes are basic blood chemistries, and they are checked via a simple blood draw. As Sue has said, the levels of sodium and potassium are the two levels that are typically the most important in determining whether or not a dog is experiencing problems as a result of an Addisonian episode secondary to overmedication.

Actually, per Dechra's published monitoring protocol, your vet should already have performed this test yesterday at the same time that the ACTH was done. So when you request all of Bonnie's test results, you can check to see whether or not it WAS done. However, as long as Bonnie is eating and drinking properly and is not suffering from vomiting or diarrhea, I think it's most likely that her electrolytes are OK at the moment.

Marianne

I just picked up a break down of the costs for Bonnies test this week.
Is the electrolytes test also called a chem 20 test ?

[labblab]

Yup, a Chem 20 panel ought to include electrolytes :). So if anything was out-of-whack for Bonnie, your vet should have already brought that to your attention.

GOOD JOB on writing up that letter and getting the test results that you and Bonnie are entitled to!!

Marianne

[zoesmom]

I have been taking more notice of when Bonnie becomes less active and seems worse. It looks to me like its a few hours after her pill. She was bright as a button this morning but seems stressed and slow and breathing heavy now.

Is her dose change( what ever it turns out to be ) very urgent ?

Ixxxxxxxxxxxx


This is a good thing to do. Take note of these kinds of things and possibly, jot your observations down in a journal with dates and times. Many of us have resorted to that when we are trying to sort out the mysteries of our cush pups. It helps you see a pattern, if there is one.

Anyway, it sounds like Bonnie was dropping low and feeling lousy at about the time the pills would have been really kicking in. Did that happen about 4 - 8 hours after her dose? If so, then it could be that as the drug wears off later in the day (8 - 24 hours post-pill) her cortisol probably rises enough to help her perk up a bit. If she's good in the morning, right before and right after her pill is given, that would be when the drug is at its very lowest in her system - and then, as it starts to kick in over the next few hours, she slows down again and feels blah. If this seems to be a pattern, then she may benefit from twice a day dosing, but at a much lower dose. Something like 30 mg twice a day might keep her more on an even keel. But for now, you should stop giving it. If you are going to look for a new vet, it won't hurt her to be off the drug until then. So no, it would not be urgent to rush her into a dose change.

In fact, the best course would be to watch for return of full-blown cushings symptoms that she had at the time of diagnosis. When you start see those again, then you would probably do another ACTH to make sure it's safe to start her on the lower dose. That might only take a few days, or it could take a couple weeks or longer. Since she doesn't seem to be in a true addisonian crisis, with only mild symptoms of low cortisol and hopefully, electrolytes in balance, then probably all she'll need is a short break of a week or so. But for your own peace of mind, more than anything, you can always get another ACTH before resuming tx at a lower dose.

I will keep fingers and paws crossed that you can find a vet that you feel more confident with. It might not hurt to make an appt with potential vets to discuss their experience and protocols for treating cushings, before actually taking Bonnie in. By asking some sly questions (to which you already know the answers), you can get a much better idea of how much they really know about cushings. Sometimes you can get those answers by phone, from one of their office employees, but that's always less reliable than talking directly to the vet, one on one. Sue

[zoesmom]

if anything was out-of-whack for Bonnie, your vet should have already brought that to your attention.
Marianne

Well, one would hope!!! But maybe not this vet. :mad: :rolleyes:

Anyway, once you get the test result copies, Denise, it would be good if you could go ahead and post them here. Andn on the Chem 20 panel(s), anything that is high or low (out of normal range). Also, be sure to post the normal reference ranges for those in parentheses. That will help immensely since the UK labs use different units of measurements than we are used to seeing.

;):p Glad you stuck to your guns and are getting those records. After all, you've paid for the tests, so you should have every right to see them.

[me and my twiglets]

This is a good thing to do. Take note of these kinds of things and possibly, jot your observations down in a journal with dates and times. Many of us have resorted to that when we are trying to sort out the mysteries of our cush pups. It helps you see a pattern, if there is one.


In fact, the best course would be to watch for return of full-blown cushings symptoms that she had at the time of diagnosis. When you start see those again, then you would probably do another ACTH to make sure it's safe to start her on the lower dose. That might only take a few days, or it could take a couple weeks or longer. Since she doesn't seem to be in a true addisonian crisis, with only mild symptoms of low cortisol and hopefully, electrolytes in balance, then probably all she'll need is a short break of a week or so. But for your own peace of mind, more than anything, you can always get another ACTH before resuming tx at a lower dose.



I'm sorry if this sounds silly but I cant get my head around this:confused:
It seems to me that Bonnie already has the cushings symptoms. The shaking the panting, huge pee pee's in the house and drinking lots, not able to walk far without getting puffed out... more I cant think of at the moment:confused:
So what is it I should be watching out for as a return of full blown cushings ?
I feel such a fool for asking but I'm thinking better to ask than be sorry:o

[me and my twiglets]

Well, one would hope!!! But maybe not this vet. :mad: :rolleyes:


I was thinking the same thing ;)

[labblab]

I'm sorry if this sounds silly but I cant get my head around this:confused:
It seems to me that Bonnie already has the cushings symptoms. The shaking the panting, huge pee pee's in the house and drinking lots, not able to walk far without getting puffed out... more I cant think of at the moment:confused:
So what is it I should be watching out for as a return of full blown cushings ?
I feel such a fool for asking but I'm thinking better to ask than be sorry:o
This is absolutely not a foolish question at all, because I think we're probably ALL wondering about the accuracy of such low results on this ACTH test given Bonnie's current symptoms in combination with those high February numbers...:confused: She really does sound like an actively Cushinoid dog to me, too.

Honestly, I do have to wonder whether the test was conducted properly...and/or whether the stimulating agent might have been too old or ineffective somehow. But even her "pre" result was really low, which the stimulating agent wouldn't have had any affect on. And you do say that Bonnie is acting stressed and lethargic a few hours after her Vetoryl dosing. So I am full of questions about her behavior, just like you.

Like Sue says, I think the first step will be to get Bonnie's test results on Monday and post them. That way we can really see if there are any serious abnormalities that haven't been reported to you. And the next step will be to get Bonnie in to see a vet in whom you can place greater confidence. Right now, there are lots of puzzling aspects to Bonnie's behavior and her history. And you really need a competent vet to help you sort things out.

Marianne

[me and my twiglets]

Can I just check that I should stop giving Bon her pill:confused:
I'm being such a pest....sorry:o

[labblab]

Denise, this is just my layperson's opinion, but I think that for the time being -- as odd as they are, you have to assume that these most recent ACTH results are indeed accurate. And on that basis, I'd withhold Bonnie's trilostane for at least a few days. Hopefully you can find a new vet ASAP. And in the meantime, it will be useful to see whether/how her behavior changes while temporarily off the trilostane...

Marianne

[me and my twiglets]

Denise, this is just my layperson's opinion, but I think that for the time being -- as odd as they are, you have to assume that these most recent ACTH results are indeed accurate. And on that basis, I'd withhold Bonnie's trilostane for at least a few days. Hopefully you can find a new vet ASAP. And in the meantime, it will be useful to see whether/how her behavior changes while temporarily off the trilostane...

Marianne

Thanks marianne. I will stop her pills.
Bonnie seems bright again this morning.
I will update later today with how her day plays out.

[me and my twiglets]

Something I forgot:p

The vet went ahead and faxed the new dose of pill to the on-line pharmacy that I buy from (40mg in 10s +30s) I have yet to tell the vet I wont be taking Bonnie back there. So thinking on the days ahead would it be a good idea to go ahead and purchase that dose so I have it at hand if need be ?

Or would it be better to find a new vet first and let them start again?

[Franklin'sMum]

So thinking on the days ahead would it be a good idea to go ahead and purchase that dose so I have it at hand if need be ?
Or would it be better to find a new vet first and let them start again?

Hi Denise,
Wow! You have had a rough time :( Do you need to purchase the 30+10 right away? Because if the dose is changed to say 20+20, you're kinda stuck. Personally I wouldn't pick up the script as yet. You just don't know what thoughts your new vet/IMS is going to have.
I'm really glad your previous vet is going to get you Bonnie's results. I really can't understand why they wouldn't do it in the first place. You said she's open for a half day Saturday... If you needed to take Bonnie to an emergency vet, they like to know what's happening. The mind turns to mush in some situations, and a hard copy would do wonders :).
Hoping Bonnie feels better real soon,
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I have been following along and was just as suprised as everyone else with the test results. But it sounds like you have a new plan to follow and let us know how Bonnie is without the pills.

Gosh, sorry you are having such a complicated time but at least it seems you will now get to the bottom of things even if it takes a bit of time.

Thinking of you and Bonnie and hoping things get resolved soon. I wondered the same thing you did about her already having full bown symptoms so good thing you asked the question:)

No question is silly and never feel funny for asking.:) Cushings is such a puzzle and it can be so hard to figure out.

Hugs to you and Bonnie,

Addy

[labblab]

Hi Denise,

Re: the new Rx for 40 mg. of trilostane...I tend to agree with Jane in that I'd probably hold off on finalizing the order until you and your vet (either your old one or a new one) are of a like mind regarding Bonnie's treatment plan. You can always call the pharmacy and ask them how long they'll keep a prescription on file for you before you'd need to have it filled.

But I DO think you need to move forward with getting a vet on board to advise you. We are all wanting to offer you our personal opinions, but you really need professional guidance to oversee your medication decisions and sort things out. I know you're not happy with Bonnie's current vet, and so you may or may not wish to consult with her further once you have the test copies in your hands on Monday. If you DO, here's another quote from Dechra re: temporarily suspending Vetoryl dosing in the event that ACTH test results are too low ("nonstimulatory"). This time the quote comes from the U.K. Product Datasheet (http://www.dechra-eu.com/files/dechra/Downloads/Pharma/Datasheets/Vetoryl_60_mg_Hard_Capsules_14-07-10.pdf). As you'll see,the specifics are a little bit different from the U.S. warning, but the overall gist is the same. Armed with this quote, you can talk to her about the advisability of continuing to hold off on Bonnie's trilostane for several days before starting back at the lowered dose.


In the event of a non-stimulatory ACTH stimulation test during monitoring, treatment should be stopped for 7 days and then re-started at a lower dose. Repeat the ACTH stimulation test after a further 14 days. If the result is still non-stimulatory, stop treatment until clinical signs of hyperadrenocorticism recur. Repeat the ACTH stimulation test one month after re-starting treatment.

And if you decide to move on to a new vet, you'll be armed with this info from Dechra along with Bonnie's test results. I'm really sorry that Bonnie's situation seems so confusing right now. But I'm really hoping that a capable and compassionate vet will be able to get to the bottom of Bonnie's test results and symptoms.

Marianne

[me and my twiglets]

A specialist could also advise you to start give omega 3 fatty acids since it is a natural way to reduce inflammation. And managing inflammation is the cornerstone of the treatment. Also a specialist would tell you to start liversupport because many dogs with a collapsed trachea will devellop liverdisease.
Saskia and Yunah :)

Hi ya
I was just reading through this thread again in case I missed anything.
I would like to start giving Bonnie omega 3 fatty acids. Can you tell me what size capsul to buy ? Also interested in liversupport, would that be milk thistle ? what would the dose be ?
Thanks for all your info. I cant wait to get a new vet.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Denise,

In our Helpful Resources we have a Thread that has alot of info about milk thistle and other liver support supplements, here is a link to that thread: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192

I am using Denamarin right now but am going to start Harley on milk thistle pretty soon. Here is some info about the dosing of milk thistle:


When shopping for milk thistle, I prefer a standardized (70 or 80% silybin) product. A typical adult human dose is 100 - 150 mg. of silybin, which is approximately 200 mg. dry herb three times daily, or the equivalent in a liquid. For pets, simply use their body weight as a percentage of the human dose. For example, a 30-pound dog would get 30% of a human dose and a 10-pound cat would get 10%. Most products purchased at health food stores have the recommended human dose on the label.

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/thistle.htm

I don't know much about the omega 3 fatty acids but I'll see what I can find out.

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[me and my twiglets]

Bonnie seems a lil more active tonight. She just charged out the garden... on night patrol :p She was also able to get up the one garden step at the back door without any trouble which she often cant manage.
Its hard to explain but Bonnie has seemed kinda floppy at night and very sluggish. Tonight she is NOT full of beans but she does seem more perky and she did manage the night patrol which she has not done for a while.
I have noticed she did not get the trembles as much today.
Her panting was also slightly less, although she had a fair few bouts of that fog horn cough.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

In our Helpful Resources we have a Thread that has alot of info about milk thistle and other liver support supplements, here is a link to that thread: http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192


Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

Hi Lori
Thanks very much for the info. I keep meaning to have a good look through the Helpful Resources, but always end up reading the latest news on all the pups here.
Denise
xxx

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Lori
Thanks very much for the info. I keep meaning to have a good look through the Helpful Resources, but always end up reading the latest news on all the pups here.
Denise
xxx

Hi Denise,

That's what we are here for, to point you in the right direction! We all know how scary, confusing and even frustrating this Cushing's disease can be, we just want to help you...you are part of our family and we will help you in any way we can, ok?

About the omega 3's; both my boys are on fomulated diets and Bear takes Wild Salmon Oil. From my reading this is a really good source of omega 3, his dosage is 50-75mg per kg of dog body weight. It is a capsule, 500mg and he takes 1 a day.

Here is an article I found about omega 3: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2&aid=666

Hopefully the others will have more information for you about the omega 3 but maybe this will help you get started.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

This was on Mary Strauss's Dog Aware site so I trust her info. With Zoe, I can only start one new thing at a time and then I have to wait to see how it affects her. I bought a box of sardine's for her to try and never fed them to her:o We were starting the melatonin and lignans and I was too afraid to add something else to the mix. I think Marie, Maddie's mom uses fish oil for Maddie, maybe she will chime in on omega 3.

I have also read night shade veggies, like potatoes may worsen inflamation. I mention it because I don't remember what Bonnie is eating currently, but some dog foods now have potatoes. I think sweet potatoes are fine. I remember Squirt's Mom said we have to be worried about the fat in flaxseed oil with Cushings pups because it could affect their pancreas, but Leslie will proabaly chime in about that, too.


Fish Oil or Salmon Oil
An important source of omega-3 essential fatty acids. Omega-3 EFAs are beneficial to the immune system, the nervous system, the heart, and help stop inflammation, such as in arthritis and allergies. They also support brain development of puppies and fetuses. This is probably the most important supplement to give, no matter what you feed, as Omega-3 EFAs are hard to find even in a natural diet, and are highly perishable when exposed to heat, light or air, so they do not survive in commercial foods even if added. Omega-3 EFAs are found in fish body oil, not liver oil.

One form of omega-3 fatty acids called ALA is found in flax seed oil, but dogs cannot use ALA unless it is first converted to EPA. At best, dogs convert 15% of ALA to EPA, and some dogs may not be able to make this conversion at all. For this reason, fish oil is a much better source of omega-3 fatty acids for dogs than flaxseed oil.

Recommended dosage is 1000 mg fish oil (containing 300 mg combined EPA/DHA) per 30 pounds (14 kg) of body weight. Maximum dosage for dogs with health problems would be 1000 mg fish oil (300 mg EPA/DHA) per 10 pounds (4.5 kg) of body weight. You can also use sardines in place of fish oil supplements; one small sardine supplies over 100 mg EPA/DHA.

Vitamin E should also be given whenever oils are supplemented (even small amounts are adequate, but highest recommended dosage would be 100 IU per day for small dogs, 200 IU for medium-sized dogs, and 400 IU for large dogs). Note that fish oil is not the same as cod liver oil, which is high in vitamins A and D.

Hugs,
Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

That's what we are here for, to point you in the right direction! We all know how scary, confusing and even frustrating this Cushing's disease can be, we just want to help you...you are part of our family and we will help you in any way we can, ok?

About the omega 3's; both my boys are on fomulated diets and Bear takes Wild Salmon Oil. From my reading this is a really good source of omega 3, his dosage is 50-75mg per kg of dog body weight. It is a capsule, 500mg and he takes 1 a day.

Here is an article I found about omega 3: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2&aid=666

Hopefully the others will have more information for you about the omega 3 but maybe this will help you get started.

Love and hugs,
Lori

Thanks Lori
Very interesting ! I will get some for Bonnie. It also talks about how it can help yeast infections.
I think I might also try omega 3 on my other twiglet Mactavish, he has a real problem with yeast.... he's like a yeast machine:p
He loves olive oil..shame thats not omega 3. He's a lil monkey if I have to give him any type of pill :rolleyes:

[me and my twiglets]

I have also read night shade veggies, like potatoes may worsen inflamation.
Hugs,
Addy

Hi Addy
Thanks for the info.
Night shade veggies.... never come across that before. Can you tell me more please. I'm learning so much here:D

Denise
xxx

[SasAndYunah]

This is what I have been using for years now for my dogs: http://www.henne-pet-food.dk/engl/index.htm

It's made in Denmark but I am pretty sure it's available in the USA and UK also. The fish oil is "cold pressed" and it is a liquid that you add to the food. No pills and dogs love the fishy smell/taste of it :D This same company also has some delicious and healthy salmon snacks for dogs (Lakse Kronch) :) Also they make a special product for dogs that have to work hard or need to gain weigth. I use it for Yunah during winter since she tends to loose weigth then (Kronch Pemmikan)

Saskia and Yunah :)

[me and my twiglets]

I collected test results this morning.
I'm not very happy because I still only have the last 3 results which I have already posted. I asked for the rest but was informed they have a new computer system that only has limited past data:confused:

I did get the chem 20 results for last week

I'm such a slow typer that for now I will just list results with alerts.

Urea 31.0 mmo1/L ref range 2.5-6.7 *HIGH
Creatinine 156.4 umo1/L ref range 20.0-150.0 *high
bile acids (fasting) 5.7 umol/L range 0.1-5.0 *high
Lipase 37'c 235.9 U/L range 0.1-200.0 *high
chloride 118.8 mmo1/L range 100.0-116.0 *high

Bonnie has been so much better over the weekend having stopped the pill. The trembling has almost stopped, her tummy seems smaller, can get around better and not struggling to get up a single step. She seems to have alot more energy.

I have found another vet and Bonnie will see him later today.
I will post later with the outcome of that appointment.

Thanks very much for all the help I have been given.
Denise & Bonnie

[me and my twiglets]

This is what I have been using for years now for my dogs: http://www.henne-pet-food.dk/engl/index.htm

It's made in Denmark but I am pretty sure it's available in the USA and UK also. The fish oil is "cold pressed" and it is a liquid that you add to the food. No pills and dogs love the fishy smell/taste of it :D This same company also has some delicious and healthy salmon snacks for dogs (Lakse Kronch) :) Also they make a special product for dogs that have to work hard or need to gain weigth. I use it for Yunah during winter since she tends to loose weigth then (Kronch Pemmikan)

Saskia and Yunah :)

This sounds great. Thanks for the info.
Would the odd meal of tinned salmon be a good idea ? maybe mixed with some rice.

Denise & Bonnie

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Denise,

Happy to hear that Bonnie seems more comfy and is moving around better :D. If it helps any with either Bonnie or Mactavish, omega 3 also comes in a capsule. One way around pilling is to poke a hole or cut the end of the capsule and squirt the oil over the food. Franklin loves tinned salmon, too. It is very high in fat, though (omega 3 fatty acid is still a fat)

Urea and creatinine are indicators of renal function, and can be elevated if the pup eats a high protein diet, or a raw food diet (Dr Jean Dodds).

Hope that helps,
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[addy]

Hi Denise,

Hoping for a good vet visit today!!:) Fingers and paws are crossed.

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Took Bonnie to the new vet this evening.
He agreed 100% that stopping her meds was the right thing to do.
I'm to keep a close eye on her and he will see her again next week or sooner if I think its needed.
Next time I see him he will have all the details from the other vets and have a better idea about treatment.

He seems very much on the ball and was telling me about other cush pups he treats and about case's he's read about. Think I'm gonna like this vet:p

Bonnie has so much more energy, the change in her is amazing and such a joy to see. I know things can change but for now I have my wee cheeky monkey back:D

I just want to say a great big thank you to everyone for all your kind help and advice. Without it I would have been very lost and alone.

Denise & Bonnie
xxxxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

Happy to hear that Bonnie seems more comfy and is moving around better :D. If it helps any with either Bonnie or Mactavish, omega 3 also comes in a capsule. One way around pilling is to poke a hole or cut the end of the capsule and squirt the oil over the food. Franklin loves tinned salmon, too. It is very high in fat, though (omega 3 fatty acid is still a fat)

Urea and creatinine are indicators of renal function, and can be elevated if the pup eats a high protein diet, or a raw food diet (Dr Jean Dodds).

Hope that helps,
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

Hi Jane
I feel very lucky that I can give Bonnie pills and she is as good as gold about it. I think the capsule will be best for her. Mactavish on the other hand is another story , think I will need to put the oil in food and hope for the best. He likes olive oil so he might like this.
Can I give them capsules ment for humans ?

The new vet I found seems more positive about the trachea problem, so maybe its not as bad as the other vet said.
Thanks for your help and info

Denise & Bonnie
xxx

[labblab]

Denise, I'm SOOOOO relieved to hear that your vet visit went well -- and that Bonnie seems to be feeling so much better! :) :)

Please keep those updates coming, OK??????? ;)

Great big hugs,
Marianne

[me and my twiglets]

Denise, I'm SOOOOO relieved to hear that your vet visit went well

I'm so relieved as well:D
I was having a real problem with family as they thought I had gone nuts stopping her meds. I explained about all the help I was given here and that I also read much info:( (I was very upset about that)
When the vet said it was a good thing I had stopped giving Bonnie her pill I could have jumped on him and kissed his face off:p;) but I never:D

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

Hoping for a good vet visit today!!:) Fingers and paws are crossed.

Addy

Thanks Addy
xxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi everyone
Thought I'd give an update on Bonnie.
This is the 5th day Bonnie has been off Vetoryl.
I'm gob smacked in the change in her. She has so much energy:D
She is eating well and I think her drinking has slowed down, however I have 2 twiglets so I cant be sure. She is not going for a pee as often and when she does she wants to go in the garden instead of peeing a river when I'm not looking in the house, but she still does it in the house during the night
The trembling has improved a great deal and the panting is soooooo much better. Her cough even seems much better. And the honking now only comes after eating.
Its so nice to see her like this again...

I'm finding all this hard to get my head around :confused:
Please tell me what I should be looking out for...
It all seems back-to- front :confused:

[zoesmom]

YIPPPEEE. Glad she's feeling better and better. But like you said Denise, it all does seem kinda convoluted. But assuming those acth results were accurate - which they probably were - then what was happening before was probably coming from her being borderline addisonian. And so, the drinking and peeing were most likely from that. The weak legs, too. So with her being off the drug now and her symptoms improving, then that is surely because her cortisol is rising to a level that is more appropriate for her. Since she's rebounding so quickly, I suspect over the coming days, she will keep heading in the other direction (cortisol upwards) until you start to see signs of cushings again (which may well be an increase in her drinking, peeing, and accidents). Ironic, huh!!

Did Bonnie have a voracious appetite at the time she was diagnosed? Because that might be the best clue to watch for at this point. It could happen in a matter of days, or it might take a couple weeks . . . .or longer - perhaps months. But I suspect it will be sooner rather than later, given what you have seen so far. Did she have any other cushings symptoms that were really obvious, when you started on this journey. Like fur loss, infections (uti, skin, ear, whatever?) I guess you should expect more improvement on her current problems and then a period of being 'next to perfect' with hopefully no symptoms, and then she'll probably start up with the cushings symptoms again and they will get increasingly worse as her cortisol rises. It's probably going to be up to you to decide when the signs are distressing enough to warrant starting her on vetoryl again.

So whatever signs she had initially, before diagnosis, is probably what will reappear. That's when you take her back in for another ACTH to see where she's at. If her cortisol is getting high again (like in the teens), then it's time to restart the vetoryl at a lower dose. If that concerns you, you can reintroduce the drug at a very low dose. Like 10 or 15 mg/day - rather than the 30, which is what your vet suggested??? That is definitely a safer approach.

But just to warn you, going this route may require a couple of extra acth tests ($$) and possibly another dosage change as you try to get her cortisol to an ideal level. For her, we know that 1-ish was too low. Personally, if it were my dog, I'd be shooting for somewhere around 4 or 5 on the next go around. Given her weight, maybe something like 20 or 25 mgs might be a better starting point. But it's really a matter of trial and error. Because of that, it might be wise to order new caps in the smaller strengths - 10 and 5 mg, if that's available? That way you can concoct any number of dosage strengths - in case there's more tweaking involved down the road. But again, that will be more expensive than just going with the 30 mg caps.

Let your comfort level guide you. If lower feels less worrisome, then do lower. Also, if you buy 30 mg's and it's still a bit too strong for her, then there's no way you can use them (opening and dividing the powder is NOT recommended.) So just some things to think about when the time comes. But I think she'll be fine after a break from the drug and on a lower dose.

I got to the point where I could read my Zoe's 'signals' like a book and after a time, I was comfortable tweaking her dose myself. Nothing major, of course, and not when Zoe and I were cushings novices. And I certainly wouldn't recommend that for the faint-hearted. But Zoe was one whose drinking was a good measure of how well she was doing. You might want to do what I did for so long. I kept a journal of her daily water consumption. You might be able to see a pattern in Bonnie's drinking by doing that. (Then again, with another pup in the house, you'd have to separate their water supplies somehow to get an accurate picture. )

Hope this helps. Sue

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I am so thrilled Bonnie is feeling better:D:D:D It is just the best news.
I agree it does seem upside down and backwards and I don't blame you for being confused.:confused:

What were Bonnie's symptoms when she was first diagnosed? I would hope we would continue to see improvement in the symptoms she was recently displaying and then at some point a return of those symptoms? I guess you will have to depend alot on the ACTH results.

Hopefully Sue and the others will be along soon to give you their take on it. Until then just enjoy your wee cheeky monkey:)

I was hoping the cough might improve since it did say a cough could be a reaction to the meds. I was crossing my fingers that part of the cough was that and maybe a wee part of it was the beginning of partially collapsed trachia. My Koko used to cough after eating too, I switched him from kibble to a dehydrated soft food and I add a lot of water to it and that stopped the coughing when he eats. I also take his collar off when he eats. I wonder if a raised bowl might help Bonnie?

Keep up the good work, you are such a good Mom.

Hugs,
Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks very much Sue.
I kinda thought that would be the case :o

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Addy
I think the first thing I noticed 4 years back was her lack of energy and that her tummy was getting bigger, and she was drinking more.

Thinking about it now I dont think Bonnie could have ever been on the correct dose. The trembling and panting showed up later:confused: but got alot worse these last few months. She kept the pot belly the whole time. Then the cough. I'm ashamed I let this go on for 4 years:o It never crossed my mind "THAT DANG VET" did'nt know what she was doing:eek: Thank god my gut is smarter than my brain.
I'm thinking that Bonnie will go back to how she was before I stopped the med.. it makes me so sad. That panting often went on all night:(
I can see in her eyes how much better she feels
I'm sorry to ramble.
Thanks fr you hlp
xxx

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I think Sue and I were posting at the same time!!!:)

I understand why you are sad but the most important thing to feel good about now is that you have knowledge and knowledge is power, power to help Bonnie and that road will still have ups and downs, good times and bad. Even if your first vet wasn't super at treating Cushings, you tried to help Bonnie and you have been a really good mom. So don't look back, look forward!!!!:)

Besides, Bonnie may suprise you. It will most likely be just trying to find the right dose for her.

AND here is something else to feel good about- you found a great family to support you and Bonnie:D:D:D

I think we all feel sad from time to time. This darn Cushings is so hard because it can go backwards and sideways and every which way. It is hard to know which end is up sometimes:confused:

Hoping you and Bonnie have a good day today.

Hugs,
Addy

[zoesmom]

Denise -

Not only that - what Addy said - but FOUR years is a good long time and if Bonnie only had minor symptoms until recently, then her previous dose may have been ok. Maybe not perfect, but if it had been seriously off, she'd have shown a lot more problems before this summer. So please don't beat yourself up. As Addy also said, all us cush moms and dads havegone thru these ups and downs and arounds and sideways!! It's just part of the cushings journey, unfortunately. And sometimes, though we know not why, their drug requirements can suddenly or gradually change. If gradual, it can take some time to become obvious to us.

You, my friend, are doing a terrific job of looking out for Bonnie and we're here with you, now and in the future, in case you have any more doubts or qualms. Sue

[Squirt's Mom]

Hey Denise,

Not only what Addy and Marianne said, but and Bonnie are living proof against that "2 year" crap so many parents are told when their baby is first diagnosed. So when folks come along who are terrified because their vet has told them this, you can pop up and say, "Not so!" You can tell them that even with "THAT DANG VET" on board, Bonnie has already outlived their vets dire prediction. ;) You and Bonnie have something important to share...

So, put those bad feelings away now...you are both in much better hands now!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks for all the kind words.. it means a great deal to me :o
Denise & Bonnie
xxxx

[addy]

Hi Denise,

Thought I would check to see how wee Bonnie is doing today. Hope things are going well:)

Wait, I keep forgetting it is probably midnight for you:o

I hope you have a really good day tomorrow!!!!!:D

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Addy

Its been 8 days now since I stopped giving Bonnie the Vetoryl. I'm amazed at the change in her. The thing that stands out the most is her energy:D We have one step at the end of the hall that leads to the garden. Before I stopped the med 8 times out of 10 I had to help Bonnie up the step... now she just jumps up !! It must be a year since she was able to do that.
The trembling is also so much better, she now only pants if she has been up to something:p At rest and when relaxed she no longer pants. Her drinking and peeing are also less.
She has almost lost her pot belly... and it was very big ! I'm just gob smacked about everything:confused:

What gives a Cushings dog the pot belly ? I assume its water in the tummy, now thats gone she must weigh a great deal lighter.
Now Bonnie has more energy she wants to walk for longer and is also more playful, however doing that makes her pant. I'm not sure if thats the cushings or the wind pipe problem. Should I let her have longer walks even though it makes her pant ?

Hope you have a great day Addy

Denise & Bonnie
xxxx

[me and my twiglets]

I would like to thank everyone again for all the help you have given me, and for the push I needed to start with in following my gut and not "that dang vet" to stop giving Bon her pill. I really hate to think what would have happened if I just took the vets advice and continued giving the med.

Thanks everyone
love
Denise & Bonnie
xxxxx

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Addy


She has almost lost her pot belly... and it was very big ! I'm just gob smacked about everything:confused:

What gives a Cushings dog the pot belly ? I assume its water in the tummy, now thats gone she must weigh a great deal lighter.
Denise & Bonnie
xxxx

Hi Denise!

So happy to hear that Bonnie is doing so well!! The pot belly appearance can be caused by a number of things: Excessive cortisol can cause muscle atrophy and as muscles shrink, fat can fill the space where the muscles was; on an ultrasound they call it ascites, which is abnormal accumulation of serous fluid in the spaces between tissues and organs in the cavity of the abdomen; our cush-pups livers are usually enlarged because of the extra work the liver has to do filtering unwanted toxins and dealing with excessive amounts of cortisol.

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I am so happy to hear about Bonnie. :D

Maybe others can chime in here but my vet advises to cut back on the exercise a bit with Koko and his partially collapsed trachea. I don't walk him quite as far now and it depends on the weather, when it is humid and/or warm we can't walk as far as we used to. That has helped his coughing and breathing.

It could also be Bonnie has to build up to walking further if she has not been exercising much. With my Zoe, we go a certain distance for a week and when she can handle that, we add a little more but I build up the distance slowly, again depending on the weather for her. Heat and humidity bother both my pups.

Oh Denise I am so very happy you listened to your gut.:)

Hoping for sunshine and long walks for you.

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise!

So happy to hear that Bonnie is doing so well!! The pot belly appearance can be caused by a number of things: Excessive cortisol can cause muscle atrophy and as muscles shrink, fat can fill the space where the muscles was; on an ultrasound they call it ascites, which is abnormal accumulation of serous fluid in the spaces between tissues and organs in the cavity of the abdomen; our cush-pups livers are usually enlarged because of the extra work the liver has to do filtering unwanted toxins and dealing with excessive amounts of cortisol.

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

Hi Lori
With a cushings dog is it normal for the pot belly to disappear so fast when the med is stopped :confused: I'm sure Bonnie had a big belly when I first took her to the vets 4 years back:confused:
Sorry... I'm slow to that this info in :o

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

I am so happy to hear about Bonnie. :D

Maybe others can chime in here but my vet advises to cut back on the exercise a bit with Koko and his partially collapsed trachea. I don't walk him quite as far now and it depends on the weather, when it is humid and/or warm we can't walk as far as we used to. That has helped his coughing and breathing.

Oh Denise I am so very happy you listened to your gut.:)

Hoping for sunshine and long walks for you.

Addy

Thanks Addy
As I have 2 dogs I was finding it hard at walkies time. Tavish is full of beans and wants a long walk... while Bonnie was weak and could only manage a short walk, I tried taking them out on their own, but each would go nuts while the other was out. Doing it that way was causing much stress.... so for the last year or so I have been taking out a baby buggy when we go for walks. When Bonnie gets puffed I put her in the buggy and she gets to ride while Tavish walks. She likes it alot and I think she is very happy with this arrangement:p Thanks for your advice, I will carry on taking the buggy.

Denise x

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Lori
With a cushings dog is it normal for the pot belly to disappear so fast when the med is stopped :confused: I'm sure Bonnie had a big belly when I first took her to the vets 4 years back:confused:
Sorry... I'm slow to that this info in :o

I'm going to have to really think about this too! :) Hopefully some of the others will be along that can answer this question that puzzles us!

[me and my twiglets]

Update for Bonnie

Took Bonnie back to the new vets today for a check-up as its been 10 days off the Vetoryl.

She is still doing well, the pot belly has gone, more energy... nothing bad to report:D
Vet keen for her to stay off the Vetoryl and for me to take her back for check-ups every week so he can see how she's going.

Denise & Bonnie
x

[addy]

Oh Denise, hurrah!!!! Such good news. Some dogs end up with quite an extended holiday off Vetoryl. :)

How is Bonnie's cough?


My pups and I are dancing with joy for you. What a turn around.

Hugs, hugs and more hugs with lots of smiles, too

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Addy

Bonnie still has the cough, but it does seem a bit better. She still has the panting if she's been up to something :p The vet is not sure about the cough or what is causing it. He has put her on
Onsior 20mg for a week to see if it has any effect. I have not looked into this med yet but the vet said it will help with her joints and also with luck it may clear up her cough or at least help it as it has anti inflamatory effects. He said her joints are better now because shes off the vetoryl but they may start playing her up again.
He is such a nice vet.. I'm so happy we have him to look after wee Bonnie.
He is gonna take things slow and see how it goes. If the panting/cough does not improve very soon he wants to do an x-ray.

BIG HUGS coming your way
Thanks Addy:)
Denise & Bonnie
xxx

[addy]

It is so good you like your new vet, that means so much for you and Bonnie. It is half the battle. Hopefully, the new vet will get to the bottom of the cough too.:)

Funny, when you said you had your hands full walking the 2 dogs, I have the same problem. I have to put some food in a Kong toy and bribe Zoe to stay home while I walk Koko!!!! My 2 pups are opposites too!!! I usually have to walk them one at a time. Boy, I get sore feet sometimes:D:D:D

Hope you have a wonderful night and I'll keep hoping things continue to go well.

Hugs,

Addy

[addy]

Hi Denise!

How is our wee Bonnie doing? Just wanted to pop in and say hi and let you know I am thinking of you both.

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Hi Denise
I noticed a quote from you
"He said her joints are better now because shes off the vetoryl but they may start playing her up again."
Apollo started the weakness in his hind legs in June and I wonder if the Vetoryl has anything to do with it?
Glad to hear Bonnie is doing better.
Sonja and Apollo.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise!

How is our wee Bonnie doing? Just wanted to pop in and say hi and let you know I am thinking of you both.

Hugs,
Addy

Hi Addy
I hope you and yours are ok. Thanks for thinking of us.
Bonnie is like a different dog. She walks with no problem and even has her cheeky wiggle back:p She has no problem with the step any more, however she still gets puffed out. The pot belly has GONE !
Her panting is much better, it used to stop her sleeping and the trembling is also better but she still gets it abit.
Her drinking has slowed down and she is not weeing so much.
She still gets that cough. She is on new meds for a week that are ment to help with her joints and could help with her chest. We are going back to the vet on Monday for another check up. He wants me to take her every week so he can keep a close eye on her.
I must admit I am confused about the whole situation.
I will post again on Monday after we have been to the vets.
Take care Addy

Denise & Bonnie
xxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise
I noticed a quote from you
"He said her joints are better now because shes off the vetoryl but they may start playing her up again."
Apollo started the weakness in his hind legs in June and I wonder if the Vetoryl has anything to do with it?
Glad to hear Bonnie is doing better.
Sonja and Apollo.

Hi Sonja
I cant explain in detail how/why the vetoryl affects the joints but it can/does:confused: my vet said the vetoryl un-masks problems like this. The Vetoryl stops the body from making something that is needed for the joints:confused:
Bonnie was on Vetoryl for 4 years and it was getting to the stage where she could hardly walk and could not manage to get up or down a single step.
After a ding dong with old vet who was full of doom and gloom for wee Bonnie we found a new vet who agreed that Bonnie should stay off the Vetoryl for the time being. Within a few days of stopping the med Bonnie was able to walk with no problem and jump up and down the step. Her pot belly has gone !
The new vet is amazed how fast her joints and energy improved and can only put it down to stopping the Vetoryl.
So this new vet is thinking ahead to the time when Bonnie might have to go back on the vetoryl. He has put her on a med for her joints even though they are ok at the moment to see how she copes with it, which would be hard to pinpoint if she was on the Vetoryl.
He said if Bonnie gets on with this new med and she needs to go back on the vetoryl the odds are she wont have the joint problems or weakness in the legs. It may also help with her cough/chest problem.
Sorry I cant explain any better:o

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Denise,

For you and Sonja about cortisol....

Cortisol is a glucocorticoid, or steroid hormone, and is a natural anti-inflammatory produced by the body in the adrenals (both human and canine.) If arthritis is present in the joints, then the natural response of the body is to secrete a bit more cortisol in response to combat the inflammation. When our bodies cannot produce enough for relief, then we are given meds to supplement this steriod, like NSAIDS, steroids, or another class of anti-inflammatory drug.

When our pups are treated for Cushing's - the over-production of cortisol - the act of lowering the cortisol to a normal level often unmasks inflammatory problems that were being "treated" by the excess cortisol produced due to the Cushing's, like arthritis.

It is possible that the Trilo lowered Bonnie's cortisol to the point her body couldn't handle the inflammation in the joints (arthritis) and she began displaying signs of pain. Now that the Trilo is out of her body, it is once again producing enough cortisol to give her relief from the pain of inflammation.

Hope that helps!
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[AlisonandMia]

Leslie is spot on - and I'd add that when cortisol is too low (as a result of medical treatment or because of naturally-occurring Addison's Disease) the result is often general pain all over in the muscles and joints, particularly in the lumbar back area for some reason. The pain can be quite intense apparently. There is also terrible weakness and fatigue and the blood glucose will be low as well which probably contributes to a lot of the weakness.

This is what is reported by humans who've suffered low cortisol and a dog with low cortisol looks to be suffering something pretty similar.

It seems that Bonnie's cortisol had been lowered way too far by the Vetoryl so maybe some (or even all) of the achiness and pain she was feeling was a result of that rather than actual arthritis. When my Mia's cortisol went too low during her treatment she looked absolutely decrepit and miserable - half an hour after a dose of prednisone (to replace the cortisol she was temporarily not making for herself) and she was pretty much back to her normal bouncy self. The transformation can be absolutely amazing!

Alison

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks Alison & Leslie :o

[me and my twiglets]

My wee girl Bonnie passed away yesterday.
She was doing very well without the Vetoryl and enjoying life until a week ago when she went off her food, was sick a few times and had loose stools.
We were in and out of the vets every other day. She was given a anti sickness jab and a paste to firm up her stools, nothing bad showed up on blood work or x,ray. Friday morning I took her back to the vets and he kept her in so he could put her on a drip, she was still perky. The vet decided that it would be a good idea for her to stay over night and stay on the drip. He told me the drip would make her feel alot better. This morning the vet phoned to say she had passed away. During the night she went down hill and started to pass lots of blood:( I would have been there in a flash if only he had called me:(
I am heart broken:( my baby girl died alone in a cage in the vets:(
The vet was very shocked and said he had expected her to be feeling alot better and would be fit to go home.

I'm still in a whirl and my head is spinning.
What I dont understand is the vet now thinks the Parvo virus was to blame:confused: Bonnie was up to date with her jabs so how could she pick up Parvo:confused: He also told me to watch my boy Tavish like a hawk as he is prob infected as well but not yet showing any signs:confused: Tav is also up to date with his jabs.
Until tonight I had no idea how BAD Parvo is:eek: I trusted this new vet but now having read abit about Parvo I am at a lose as to why he never tested her stools,had he done that a week ago she would have had a much better chance :confused: It will be Monday before I can talk to the vet and ask him to explain again coz I dont understand.
Can anyone shed any light on this please... I'm going out of my mind
Denise
x

[addy]

Oh Denise, I saw your thread but did not expect to read about wee Bonnie passing. I am just stunned. I don't understand it either. My first thought was pancreatitis as I read your thread but not parvo.

I don't know much about it but I will see what I can find out for you. Denise, I am so very, very sorry. So very sorry to hear about Bonnie.

Love,
Addy

[k9diabetes]

Hi Denise,

I'm so very sorry to hear of Bonnie's passing.

I can't say anything about the Parvo question but I can tell you that our dog died of cancer and his last day or two was very similar to your description of Bonnie.

If we hadn't happened to have taken a chest x-ray about two weeks earlier, we would have had no idea why he suddenly grew very weak and started passing large amounts of blood because he was bleeding into the upper GI area.

He had probably had cancer for some time. But other x-rays, an ultrasound, and bloodwork revealed no evidence of it.

When we learned that he had cancer, the vet warned us that it starting a bleed somewhere was likely to happen in the future - only a matter of time.

So it may be that something similar was going on with your girl.

I know nothing makes any of this any easier... but it seems to me like this could have been something so advanced that there wasn't any way to stop it, nothing you could have or should have done differently.

Godspeed to your girl,

Natalie

[Spiceysmum]

Denise,

I am so sorry to hear that Bonnie has passed away. My thoughts are with you.

Linda

[mytil]

Denise,

I am very sorry to read about little Bonnie passing. My heart is with you.

If your vet suspects Parvo, was testing done on Tavish (titre or stool samples) for the virus? My understanding is that it takes 7-10 days to start showing symptoms if infected. Given that you had the ususal shots, I am wondering if it was something else to cause this.

Again, what a shock and I am sorry.
(((((hugs)))))
Terry

[Casey's Mom]

Denise I am so very sorry to hear about Bonnie, I was shocked to hear of her passing. I know you are heartbroken and devastated not to have been with her at the end. Sending love and healing hugs,

[Squirt's Mom]

Dear Denise,

Oh, bless your heart, honey. :( I am so, so sorry to hear about Bonnie. I know you are devastated and heart-broken on top of being confused as to [I]why[I].

I have unfortunately dealt with several parvo pups and it is such a vicious disease. Every puppy affected couldn't shake it but I had four adults that did overcome it. The condition is very nasty to take care of and the dog requires almost constant attention, but it can be done with the help of your vet. Get Tavish tested asap just in case.

Denise, you are a great mom and did everything you could for Bonnie...every day. No matter where Bonnie was, she knew that you loved her dearly and that you are always with her in her heart, as she is in yours. She knows there was nothing you could have done to save her. You love her with all your being, you devoted yourself to her care...Bonnie will always be grateful to you for this and always watch over you with the same love and devotion until you meet again.

Our deepest sympathies,
Leslie, Squirt, Trinket, and our Angels, Ruby and Crystal

[littleone1]

Denise, I am so sorry to hear about Bonnie. I know this has to be very hard for you. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Hugs,

Terri

[Carol G]

Denise,

I am so sorry for your loss. My thoughts are with you.

Carol

[Sabre's Mum]

Denise

I am so sorry to hear about Bonnie. My thoughts are with you.

Take care
Angela and Flynn

[Tobias]

Hi Denise: I have never posted before to your thread as I am very inexperienced about Cushing's. But by coincidence I read earlier today the thread of the treatment concerns, vet, etc..(.I am trying to learn so in down time I study the old posts). Then just by chance when I revisited the site this afternoon I came across the post about wee Bonnie passing away. But I do not think anything is really coincidence in life so here is something very interesting that is also a "coincidence" Just as I was sitting down to post a reply to this thread my husband came running in the back door, into the kitchen, and told me to get outside fast before I missed "it"--So I went out the back door with him and he pointed up to the sky and there was the most awesome rainbow--only the 3rd or 4th I have seen in my whole life, and I am 62. I wish I could send you the vision of the rainbow in the sky; I feel it was meant for you somehow. Blessings from Linda and Toby (9 year old Yorkie diagnosed with Cushing's last winter.

[lulusmom]

Hi Denise,

I am so very sorry for your loss. I know this is devastating for you and I can only imagine all of the questions that are going through your head right now.

I will tell you that a lot of vets jump on the parvo virus bandwagon every time a puppy get's diarrhea, especially the puppies rescued from shelters. It's not the easiest virus to diagnose and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong. If they have parvo, the odds of fatality are great but not in an adult dog. It is extremely, and I mean extremely, rare in adult dogs, especially those who have routinely received their boosters. Healthy dogs over a year old who have received their puppy shots and their first year boosters normally have lifetime immunity. :confused: I believe you mentioned that Bonnie's bloodwork was good. Dogs with parvo have low white blood cells so :confused: again. Have you considered have a necropsy done to determine the cause?

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

Glynda

[jrepac]

Oh Denise,
I am so sorry to hear about Bonnie...she is tremendously cute....I understand your pain. It hurts not to be there, but I am sure she knew how you felt about her.

Jeff & Angel Mandy

[John II]

Dear Denise,

I am so very sorry for your loss. :(

I know you did everything you could to help Bonnie, and I'm sure she knew how very much you loved her, and cared for her, and devoted so much of yourself to her welfare.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise: I have never posted before to your thread as I am very inexperienced about Cushing's. But by coincidence I read earlier today the thread of the treatment concerns, vet, etc..(.I am trying to learn so in down time I study the old posts). Then just by chance when I revisited the site this afternoon I came across the post about wee Bonnie passing away. But I do not think anything is really coincidence in life so here is something very interesting that is also a "coincidence" Just as I was sitting down to post a reply to this thread my husband came running in the back door, into the kitchen, and told me to get outside fast before I missed "it"--So I went out the back door with him and he pointed up to the sky and there was the most awesome rainbow--only the 3rd or 4th I have seen in my whole life, and I am 62. I wish I could send you the vision of the rainbow in the sky; I feel it was meant for you somehow. Blessings from Linda and Toby (9 year old Yorkie diagnosed with Cushing's last winter.`

Hi Linda
Thanks so much for posting about the rainbow.
Today I wrote this on facebook

Denise Macdonald knows the sunshine has almost gone. R.I.P my sweet baby girl and we will meet by the rainbow when the sun goes out x
9 hours ago
Friends Only ·LikeUnlike · Comment

I was indeed thinking about a rainbow today. I was also asking for a sign from spirit that my Bonnie got to where she was going safe and sound.
Also.... about 10 mins ago I was looking at some photos of rainbows;) that I took in the summer, they were balls of rainbows.. amazing sight to see.
Thank you so much
Denise
xxxx

[me and my twiglets]

You are all so very kind. Thanks very much for all your kind words.
Love Denise xxx

[me and my twiglets]

Denise,

I am very sorry to read about little Bonnie passing. My heart is with you.

If your vet suspects Parvo, was testing done on Tavish (titre or stool samples) for the virus? My understanding is that it takes 7-10 days to start showing symptoms if infected. Given that you had the ususal shots, I am wondering if it was something else to cause this.

Again, what a shock and I am sorry.
(((((hugs)))))
Terry

Hi Terry

I went to see Bonnie at the vets after the call to let me know she had died.
That was when he said he thought it was Parvo. That 1/2 hour is a bit foggy for me now. He may have said it was something else but I do remember the word started with a "P". He told me to wash my hands, then he went out the room and came back with another soap and said use this one as its more powerful. Then he said to watch Tavish like a hawk and bring him straight away or if it was during the night to be sure to tell the vet that my other dog had died and had passed much blood. I asked if Tav could be tested and he said it does not always show up so just wait to see if he starts to get ill:eek: I was so shocked that Tav might be ill as well that I found it real hard to take all he was saying in..
Now having read about Parvo I agree its odd. Maybe he ran the test on Bonnie during the night but did not want to tell me. If the test is simple and fast I would think he would have done it:confused: and why not test Tav NOW:confused:
I will call in the morning and get them to explain again.
I was using a vet taxi to take Bonnie to the vets, so I have told her the Vet thinks its Parvo. She said she will also phone as she needs to know as she has had other dogs in the car.
Sorry to ramble...

[Tobias]

Hi Denise...thank you for telling me this. Your wee one has taken to wing and sent you a beautiful message of hope. Blessings and light forever and ever to you from Linda and Toby.

[Roxee's Dad]

Dear Denise,

I am so very sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Rest in peace sweet Bonnie.

[zoesmom]

Oh, Denise.

I am so very sorry to read of Bonnie's passing. Parvo seems like a long shot, but I know it can be very dangerous in puppies. I hope you can get some answers and that Tavish is not at risk, for your own peace of mind. It certainly was not anything you did or didn't do. You were doing a terrific job with Bonnie.

But perhaps your vet owes you some carification, at the very least. Right now tho, just know that we are thinking of you and sending you hugs. No matter the circumstances (expected or unexpected) it is always hard - and heartbreaking. Sue

[me and my twiglets]

The vets unsure of what killed Bonnie. The way she died suggests a nasty bug/virus that attacks like Parvo or a poison of some sort. He said what ever it was could still be in or around my home so to keep an eye on Tavish.
Bonnie only had short walks then she got to ride in the buggy for the rest of the walk with Tavish. I am aways on the look out for glass etc and stop them from eating anything when we are out. I dont use slug pellets or rat posion at all so I dont know what she could have eaten if it was poison.
I still cant believe she's gone :( Its breaking my heart that I did not dare keep anything with her smell on. I have bleached every last trace of her away :(

[Squirt's Mom]

I have bleached every last trace of her away. :(

aw, honey, there's not enough bleach in the world to do that.

[Franklin'sMum]

Dear Denise,

I am so very, very sorry to hear of Bonnie's passing. My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours at this devastating time.

Huge (((HUGS)))
Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[apollo6]

Dear Bonnie
I am so sorry to hear about the lose of your sweet Bonnie.
May she rest in peace.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[me and my twiglets]

My heart is broken :( This time last week Bonnie was on the drip at the vets...if only I could turn the clock back.
Bonnie my sweet baby girl.... I'm so sorry:(:(:(:(

[labblab]

Dear Denise,

I have thought of you so many times during these past few days, but my thoughts never made it into words. So I shall finally give it a try. Tears filled my eyes when I read your post about little Bonnie. It is hard enough to lose a baby. But for it to be so unexpected and for you two to be physically separated -- oh, it just seems so cruel. I am so very sorry.

The one thing I will hope for you is that as the days pass by, your thoughts will drift back to all the hours and days and years that you were together, instead of those final moments when you were apart. Because it was that lifetime of love and companionship that filled both of your hearts and nourished your souls. Although you were physically separated at the end, you were still together in spirit and always will be. That is such a feeble thing to say when you are missing her so, and it does not make up for any of the pain. I know things will never be the same. I am so terribly sorry. I hope that you will stay with us here, and continue to talk with us. I do believe that can help. And it will be our privilege to listen.

With many hugs in honor of your dear girl,
Marianne

[mypuppy]

Oh Denise,
I am sorry your heart is so heavy and yearning for your sweet Bonnie. It is so hard to accept such a deep loss, but I do so hope in time your precious memories of Bonnie will overpower the terrible last moments . My thoughts and prayers go out to you and may Bonnie rest in peace. Warm regards. Jeanette and Princess

[addy]

Hi Denise, I saw we were on line at the same time and wanted to respond to you.

I had posted when I first saw your thread about Bonnie. You have been in my thoughts and prayers all week. I went through all my Dog Journals and I did come across a gastroenteritis condition, I am trying to find the issue for the name of the disease, it started with an"h' and it comes on suddenly and causes bloody diahrrea and vomiting and can be deadly. I don't want to upset you or make you feel worse, just was hoping to help you find an answer if you were still looking for one.

When I saw your post about disinfecting the house, my heart just broke for you.

I hope the other twiglet, Mactavish, is okay.

I am so sorry about Bonnie. My heart is still so heavy for you. I hope when the pain lets up a tad, that it won't hurt so to think of your Bonnie or experience her essence. Even if you were apart that night, you were not really, for Bonnie knew you were always with her. And she will always be with you, there in your heart, in your very being, Bonnie will always be a part of you.

Hugs,
Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks for all the kind words xxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Addy

Thanks very much for trying to find info for me. I'm finding it very hard not knowing why Bonnie died. I've been searching the house and garden for anything she may have eaten just in case it was poison.

Mactavish has not been himself, however he is eating ok and so far so good no symptoms have shown up. I am watching him like a hawk. He is not wanting a very long walk and is sleeping alot but I think thats down to him feeling sad and missing Bonnie. I hope and pray that he will be ok.

I hope you and yours are all ok

Denise x

[Casey's Mom]

Hi Bonnie, just wondering how you and McTavish are doing? Love sent your way from the frozen great white north:)

[apollo6]

Dear Denise
I don' t know if I said this put I am so sorry to hear about Bonnie's passing.
My prayers are with you.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[me and my twiglets]

Hello
Nice to hear from you both.
I miss my Bonnie so much:(
Mactavish is doing ok, I feel so lucky to have him. He has changed in some ways since Bonnie passed away. He is a rescue pup that I feel sure I was ment to have that came to live with us after my other Scottie Jock passed away. Bonnie was a lil monkey towards Mactavish for the first year they were together but ended up as best buddys most of the time.
I've been reading Miras thread and it has bought all the hurt back from when Jock was going through cancer... its like I have lost him all over again. I hope and pray that Jock and Bonnie are now together with my mum who was their first mum.

I come here often and read the latest news on all the pups. I dont post much but the pups and mums and dads are always in my thoughts
Hugs to everyone
Denise
xxx

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I am glad you still come here to visit. You are still part of our family!:)

I think of you and yours all the time so I am glad when you check in, especially durring this very hard time for you.

We would miss you if you didn't!!!!:)

I know you miss Bonnie, she will always be with you in your heart. I had a cat that I shared my life with for twenty-one years. I lived with her longer than any human. After I lost her, I would think I saw her out of the corner of my eye walking or laying in her ususal places. It took a long, long time for that to go away:o

Take care, dear friend.

Love,
Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Maybe you did see your beloved cat;) Spirits are often seen from the corner of your eye.
Oh I wish Bonnie could manage a visit, even if I only saw her from the corner of my eye :(

Once I saw the most amazing spirit glowing in golden light right infront of my eyes... WOW

So... Bonnie....... I'm waiting baby girl :o

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Denise,
Remember to listen with your heart as well as look with your eyes. Bonnie will find a way.
Love,
Carrol

[fivebichons]

My deepest sympathy for the loss of your most adorable little fluff. God bless you and your family.

Heidi and the bichons

[me and my twiglets]

Sorry to post this as its about my Mactavish
I'm still so heart broken over the lose of Bonnie that I cant think straight about Mactavish.
I wonder if any one could help me out here.

In a nut shell Tav is a rescue dog. No idea about his background as was found as a stray. He so HATES going to the vets and gets so stressed.

I took him Friday coz he seems to have hurt his foot. He went nuts in the vets and was peeing in fright and somehow ended up inside the cupboard under the sink. The vet let him stay there and he managed to have a feel around Tav's foot. The vet could not feel anything but said maybe he knocked it and its sore. Tav went as stiff as a board when I tried to get him out from the cupboard.
The vet said if his foot seems no better I will have to take him back and he will need to sedate him.
It seems no better today and he keeps licking it and he holds his lil foot up:(

I have never seen such fear in a animal. I dont want anything to happen to him if I take him back to the vets. I'm so worried he could have a heart attack or something out of fear when I leave him with the vet and they put him in a cage.

Please tell me I'm being silly ....:( my heart is racing as I type this just thinking about it.

I know he is not a cush pup but you are all so very nice here and no one understands my love for my pups like you do here.

Sorry:o sorry:confused:

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Denise,

Don't apologize for posting about Mactavish, honey! He is family, too, ya know. ;)

If I were you, I would ask the vet for something to calm him before taking him back in. They may be able to come to the car before he comes inside and give him something tomorrow so his foot can be checked. But for future times, I would ask for something to have on hand. FYI, ACE (Acepromazine) is a tranquilizer that has some scary side effect so I would ask for something other than that, and there are others so you don't have to settle for ACE. You might even try some melatonin or something like Bachs Rescue Remedy.

Bless his heart! I hope you can find some way to make this less traumatic for him. You have to wonder what happened but some pups just do not like the vets at all; I wonder if it is the smell, like some folks I know who get sick to their stomachs walking into a hospital because of the smell. Just navel gazing again....:p

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[me and my twiglets]

Thank you Leslie xxx

There is NO way I can give Tav a pill. He will bite my hand clean off :D The last vet got me to try that before an appointment and I tried EVERYTHING:confused: I did have to leave him at that vets and they did sedate him:eek: ( He had a sore bottom ) I was told that from now on he was banned from that vets unless he had a muzzle on before he came through the door. They also told me to come pick him up while he was still half asleep and groggy. They know full well that Tav can remove any muzzle in less than 5 seconds;) I dont go to that dang vets anymore;)

This vet I have now is the one I found for Bonnie. He is very nice and tries to help Tav... like letting him stay in the cupboard and not dragging him out and shouting at him.
I,m sure the last vet was not very nice to Tav and I'm sorry to say that I dont think Tav was treated very well at the rescue home:mad: my heart breaks for him. It took Tav so long to trust me.... he is my lil man.
He's a wee Scottie and his estimated age is about 4.

Is there a jab that would relax him ? maybe while in the car:confused:
What about his heart ? could such fear hurt him ?

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Denise,

I open the capsules of melatonin and put it in Squirt's feed. If Mactavish would take it that way, you don't have to worry about pilling him to use it. As for an injection, yes, I'm sure the vet has something they can use like that while he is in the car before he goes in the clinic. You might talk to your vet, too, and see what they have used in the past with other pups that helped. Mactavish can't be their only skittery pup! ;)

As for this having an adverse affect on his heart, I'm not sure. Hopefully someone here will know more about this. I don't think it is common for dogs to have heart attacks period but one would think such an adverse reaction could be detrimental. Something else to ask the vet!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[me and my twiglets]

Thank you.
Love
Denise Tav & Bonnie Angel:(

[Altira]

Hello Denise,

I'm Mira's mom(Mira who died from cancer a couple weeks ago) I don't know how much help I can be, except to say there is a Kira under our roof still and I panic at every move she makes and so far none of the things I panic over has turn into anything. It's odd for me, the pain just keeps shifting between the two. When Kiras does something odd I'm not thinking about Mira. When Kira seems fine I'm sobbing over Mira. It's almost a stablizer. If I focused too much on Mira I'd likely die! And keep sprouting the crazy stuff I still do on Mira's thread.. You just can't scream loud enough. I can't help wondering if all my emotion is effecting Kira. Does she miss Kira. Her constant pal for seven years straight. She doesn't act like it. But then again I've seen her do lots of stuff Mira would normally do lately too. I don't know. I just wanted you to know that I'm there too, living it with you and thinking of you.
If we didn't love them so much it wouldn't hurt so much.

[jrepac]

Some pet stores (and catalogs) sell "calming treats" for anxious/nervous pets. I believe they contain melatonin and perhaps valerian (both known to have calming effects). Easier than giving a pill, I would suspect!\

see this link for an example of such:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=8098


Good luck w/Tav...he sounds like a spirited lil' guy....I love the terriers!

I love your pictures, by the way!

Jeff & Angel Mandy

[SasAndYunah]

Hi Denise,

I would most definately not let the vet give him anything while Tav is in the car. All it will do is make Tav scared of being in the car as well and that would only make things worse.

There are two things you could do. First, but this will take time, take Tav to the vets office regularly for no reason. Just go there, stay at the parkinglot if needed, have some really good treats ready and the moment Tav is calm or follows a simple command like "sit", give him the treat and leave again. I'm not sure how far away the vet office is, but if it is near, you could even do it 2 or 3 times a day. Just go, stay outside, let him obey a simple command, give the treat and leave. No other talking, not calming him with words or sounds, act as if it is the most normal thing on earth. This way, you can desensitize him slowly. You move from the parkinglot to the frontdoor (without going in), then going inside, etc. You slowly decrease the distance to that scary place and increase the amount of time you spent there. Tav should learn that going to the vet is not a bad thing. (many people will only take their pet to a vet when there's something wrong...and of course, the animal will learn that it is not a nice place... So for everyone out there, start teaching your pup (or even adult rescue) that going to the vet is not a bad thing. Go there often and regularly without something that has to be done. Just walk in, sit for a minute and leave again. You will do your pup, yourself and your vet a huge favour :)

The second way you could tackle this, is more "brutal" in a lot of people's eyes. You see, what has happened is, that Tav has learned that if he behaves a certain way, he gets his way (sort of). So it's pretty obvious that you should "tell" your dog, he is no longer getting his way :) This usually works best without the owner there since the dog will look to its owner for support (and they usually get it :D) But this is not something you should/could do yourself...you would need a professional dog behaviorist and the help of the vet. But what it comes down too is that you "force" the dog to face its "fears" and they will eventually calm down. As soon as they understand the message that their behaviour is not going to help them anymore...they will resign to the situation. It may sound harsh but it isn't, really. It's more harsh to have a dog that is terrified (our interpretation) of the vet and let that dog go through the rest of his life in that state of mind. At least that is my opinion. If you had a child that was terrified of hospitals but it was sick, you would take it to a hospital, no matter what and try to "strengthen" that child to overcome it's fear. It would not work within a day or a week but you would work toward a "solution". That's what we need to do with our dogs as well. Not keep them away from a certain situation because they are "scared" but to empower them and to strengthen them so they learn to face the situation.

To the best of my experience, these are the 2 options in such cases. But please do not bring the vet to another surrounding (like your car), it will only extend the dogs fear to that environment as well.

Best of luck,

Saskia and Yunah :)

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Denise,
I most definitely agree with Sas on this. We had a really nice vet and she would let us bring our pups in early or late and let them explore the vets office. If one of my pups had to go to the vet, they all went. I worked out really well and for the last 15 years or more, none of mine are afraid to go to the vets or be in the vets office. Ok..Mickee is a bit apprehensive but he is 16 now and is a bit standoffish on any change as he doesn't see so well and can't hear.

It may take some time but will be well worth it.


There are two things you could do. First, but this will take time, take Tav to the vets office regularly for no reason. Just go there, stay at the parkinglot if needed, have some really good treats ready and the moment Tav is calm or follows a simple command like "sit", give him the treat and leave again. I'm not sure how far away the vet office is, but if it is near, you could even do it 2 or 3 times a day. Just go, stay outside, let him obey a simple command, give the treat and leave. No other talking, not calming him with words or sounds, act as if it is the most normal thing on earth. This way, you can desensitize him slowly. You move from the parkinglot to the frontdoor (without going in), then going inside, etc. You slowly decrease the distance to that scary place and increase the amount of time you spent there. Tav should learn that going to the vet is not a bad thing. (many people will only take their pet to a vet when there's something wrong...and of course, the animal will learn that it is not a nice place... So for everyone out there, start teaching your pup (or even adult rescue) that going to the vet is not a bad thing. Go there often and regularly without something that has to be done. Just walk in, sit for a minute and leave again. You will do your pup, yourself and your vet a huge favour

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Denise!
I just read Saskia's note to you. WOW, now THAT is one smart lady!!!:D. I'd sure try her suggestions. Oh, and give that ol' Tav a big hug from us!
Carrol & Chloe

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise!
I just read Saskia's note to you. WOW, now THAT is one smart lady!!!:D. I'd sure try her suggestions. Oh, and give that ol' Tav a big hug from us!
Carrol & Chloe

Hi Carol & Chlole

Tav just got a big hug and I told him you sent it ;)

[me and my twiglets]

Hello Denise,

I'm Mira's mom(Mira who died from cancer a couple weeks ago) I don't know how much help I can be, except to say there is a Kira under our roof still and I panic at every move she makes and so far none of the things I panic over has turn into anything. It's odd for me, the pain just keeps shifting between the two. When Kiras does something odd I'm not thinking about Mira. When Kira seems fine I'm sobbing over Mira. It's almost a stablizer. If I focused too much on Mira I'd likely die! And keep sprouting the crazy stuff I still do on Mira's thread.. You just can't scream loud enough. I can't help wondering if all my emotion is effecting Kira. Does she miss Kira. Her constant pal for seven years straight. She doesn't act like it. But then again I've seen her do lots of stuff Mira would normally do lately too. I don't know. I just wanted you to know that I'm there too, living it with you and thinking of you.
If we didn't love them so much it wouldn't hurt so much.

Hi Janice
I have been keeping up with your threads and was very sad to read about Mira. As you said...its coz we love them so much that it hurts so much.
I'm thinking of you and your Kira xx
Denise

[addy]

Hi Denise,

I hope you found out what was wrong with Tav's paw. My Koko's paw was bothering him off and on, turned out he had a thorn in it that I could not see or feel. The groomer found it.:eek:

Zoe would not let me touch her paws when I first brought her home or pick her up. We practiced with ALOT of chicken. Mummy can touch your paw, here eat chicken. Over and over again. It did no take too long:)

Wishing you well and sending lots if hugs and smiles. Belly rubs to your twiglet.:D

Addy

[me and my twiglets]

Thank you all for the advice and ideas for Tav.

Pleased to say Tav went to the vets, was sedated and had his foot checked over. He had ripped his dew claw and torn the skin. Its still sore but it should heal up ok.

Here is some background on Mr Mactavish the Scottish Terrier.
He came to live with me in 2007. I had lost my wee Jock another scottie to cancer and me and Bonnie missed him soooo much. I looked every where for a Scottie breeder in London and could not find one. I came across a Scottish Terrier rescue site and asked for them to put my name down as I would love to give a home to one. I had NO hope that they would ever call me to say they had a Scottie for rehoming in London... but within 2 weeks I got the call:D The Scottie rescue people do the rounds of all the dog shelters every month or so just to check if there are any scotties. They found poor Tav in a very large dogs home. He did not look much like a scottie at the time but the scottie rescue people found him in the nick of time as he was on death row. Tav had been there for 3 months and just barked at people if they looked in on him. The shelter had not bothered to treat him in those 3 months. He had a very bad infection in both ears and must of been in alot of pain.
Anyways the scottie people said they wanted him so he was at last treated for the infection before he was handed over to the scottie people 2 weeks later. The same day he was handed over to me. All I was told was that he was found as a stray in London and going by the state of him and the bad infection he had in the ears that he must have lived on the streets for some time.... and he liked tennis balls.

It was clear from the first hour that I had him that he had some mega issues. Our house was a MAD house for the next 18 months or so. The ear infection would not clear up. I tried to get a dog trainer to help us out but none were willing to help while he had an ear infection. I have tried doing some training but he is not having any of it. Nothing is simple or straight forward with Tav.

It took me forever to win his trust. Touch wood his ears have been ok for the last few months. Maybe its time I found a trainer:p

So sorry to ramble on.... he is very much a work in progress and I am blessed to have him;) think he has me wrapped round his lil finger:p

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

I hope you found out what was wrong with Tav's paw. My Koko's paw was bothering him off and on, turned out he had a thorn in it that I could not see or feel. The groomer found it.:eek:

Zoe would not let me touch her paws when I first brought her home or pick her up. We practiced with ALOT of chicken. Mummy can touch your paw, here eat chicken. Over and over again. It did no take too long:)

Wishing you well and sending lots if hugs and smiles. Belly rubs to your twiglet.:D

Addy

Hi Addy
Tav had riipped his dew claw and ripped the skin. The vet had to cut the claw right back. Its still sore but the vet thinks it will heal up ok. The vet said that Tav settled down after I dropped him off and that he had let him have a wonder round. I have a good feeling that Tav might get to like this vet. I was having a panic about taking Tav to the vets and leaving him there.... and I was worried about the sedation... I kept thinking about my Bonnie
When I first got Tav I could not even stroke him. I could never get a good look in his ears and the groomer gave up before she even started. It took a loooooong time but I can now brush him, clip his hair and touch his ears., I need to work on his feet now:p He is such a picky eater that I have yet to find anything to use as a best treat.
Best of all I can now give him a cuddle :D

I hope you and yours are all ok
Hugs to you all
Denise & Tav
and Bonnie

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Denise!
So glad that Mr. Tav only ended up having a "boo-boo" and will be good as new soon. That old Rascal really has you busy! Have you thought about military boarding school.............:D:D:D:eek:
Love,
Carrol & Chloe

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise!
Have you thought about military boarding school.............:D:D:D:eek:
Love,
Carrol & Chloe

Yep:D:p

Me and Tav have come to an understanding; ;) If I need to do something to him he turns on his early warning system ..... this is in the form of growling. He is like one of those alarm clocks that get louder and louder :D Tav always gives fair warning if he is miffed.
Apart from the sound effects he also does a freaky thing with his eyes as a warning, its like his eyes turn to steel and lil shutters come down.... kinda neat to watch;) he can also read my mind pretty good.

I can never be cross with him... he must have had a very scary time in the past.
Love Denise & Tav x

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Denise!
My younger son is a helicopter pilot in the US Navy. I am sure he could find a really nifty uniform for Tav. With Tav's growling & steely eyes, I am sure he would be a great asset to our military forces (lol). However..........he would definitely have to get rid of all the facial hair:D:D:D
Have a great day and keep smiling and hug that boy.
love,
Carrol

[Squirt's Mom]

...he also does a freaky thing with his eyes as a warning, its like his eyes turn to steel and lil shutters come down....

OMG! My brother's dog, Moe, does something very much like this when he is aggravated! Moe is a large dog, intact, very territorial and protective; Mark was told he was a Burmese Mtn. Dog but he looks like a Swiss Mtn. Dog to me instead.

If you are pushing him past his comfort zone, he does a growl warning that builds in sound level, tooth exposure, and gruffness, THEN, if you don't back off, his eyes do that weird thing that makes you feel like he has just determined how to take you out and not leave a trace! :eek: One of these days, he is going to tear me up because I won't back down. :rolleyes: I know this as well as I know my own name, but I refuse to let him get the upper hand! Mark and I are the only ones that stand our ground with him, so he feels the need from time to time to challenge one or the other of us. :D

Mark's methods are too direct for my tastes but he gets immediate cooperation. I use Calming Signals which takes a long time with Moe sometimes and I never turn my back on him, he is never out of my vision. So far, he has always walked away - well, he stalks away, stiff-legged, hackles straight up, head down and turned to watch me, tail stiff and fluffed, still grumbling. :rolleyes: Thirty minutes later, he is begging to play or be loved on. Silly boy!

Tav sure struck gold when he landed in your arms, Denise! Poor baby. :( No telling what all he had to endure before he was scooped up by that rescue who just happened to know the perfect Mom for him. It is such a joy to see these little souls come to life and learn to trust and love. Bless you for giving Tav a home where he was safe enough to learn.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise!
My younger son is a helicopter pilot in the US Navy. I am sure he could find a really nifty uniform for Tav. With Tav's growling & steely eyes, I am sure he would be a great asset to our military forces (lol). However..........he would definitely have to get rid of all the facial hair:D:D:D
Have a great day and keep smiling and hug that boy.
love,
Carrol

Thats so funny:D
And just last week I made him a flying jacket/coat. He looks like a pilot;) I will try and get a good photo of him in uniform:o

Thanks for making me smile xxx

[me and my twiglets]

:eek:
OMG! My brother's dog, Moe, does something very much like this when he is aggravated! Moe is a large dog, intact, very territorial and protective; Mark was told he was a Burmese Mtn. Dog but he looks like a Swiss Mtn. Dog to me instead.

If you are pushing him past his comfort zone, he does a growl warning that builds in sound level, tooth exposure, and gruffness, THEN, if you don't back off, his eyes do that weird thing that makes you feel like he has just determined how to take you out and not leave a trace! :eek: One of these days, he is going to tear me up because I won't back down. :rolleyes: I know this as well as I know my own name, but I refuse to let him get the upper hand! Mark and I are the only ones that stand our ground with him, so he feels the need from time to time to challenge one or the other of us. :D

Mark's methods are too direct for my tastes but he gets immediate cooperation. I use Calming Signals which takes a long time with Moe sometimes and I never turn my back on him, he is never out of my vision. So far, he has always walked away - well, he stalks away, stiff-legged, hackles straight up, head down and turned to watch me, tail stiff and fluffed, still grumbling. :rolleyes: Thirty minutes later, he is begging to play or be loved on. Silly boy!

Tav sure struck gold when he landed in your arms, Denise! Poor baby. :( No telling what all he had to endure before he was scooped up by that rescue who just happened to know the perfect Mom for him. It is such a joy to see these little souls come to life and learn to trust and love. Bless you for giving Tav a home where he was safe enough to learn.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

WOW...
So nice to read your post;) They sound like 2 peas in a pod.
You are very brave with Moe :eek: please be careful... we would all miss you if Moe eats you up;)
I think Great white sharks do the eye thing before they attack. I had never seen a dog do that before I got Tav. I'm gonna google Moe's breed so I can take a look. I have tried some calming signals with Tav, he has improved heaps since I got him... people can at least come in the house now:D Tav is not a very big dog but his bark is mega loud. He kept it a secret for the first few days after I got him... then someone came to the house and :eek: Tav spoke out in full glory:D
I'm off to google Moe's breed
Love
Denise Tav and Bonnie xx

[Bichonluver3]

Oh, Denise, I would LOVE to send the picture to Joshua:D
But what makes me really smile and happy in my heart is to see your sense of humour shining through. We were all so worried about you. To see this change is just the best Christmas present ever.:)
Love,
Carrol

[addy]

Well we would not want the Royal Air Force to commander our McTavish:D

But I definetly see him as mascot material:cool::cool:

Hugs,
Addy

[addy]

Merry Christmas to you too, Denise and your family.

Bonnie will always be your little twiglet and that is how it should be:)

Hoping Tav is as good as new.

We spent a Christmas in London and Maidstone a very long time ago. I remember for New Years we kept seeing signs outside of establishments saying "Fancy Dress Required". We thought, "Oh no, we did not pack any formal clothes or dress clothes, we can't go in".
Imagine our suprise as we walked around the town New Year's Eve and saw people in costumes. We then laughed and laughed because we realized "Fancy Dress" was how we say "costumes".:rolleyes:

I loved those times:D:D


Love,
Addy, Zoe and Koko

[me and my twiglets]

Hi everyone

I hope everyone is ok and also all the pups.
I dont know who to ask about this.... so I thought I would ask here because I know most of you know all there is to know about twiglets... oops dogs:p

My Tavish did a pee in his bed:eek: he has never done that before:confused: Does anyone have any ideas why he would do that ?

Sorry if I'm not allowed to ask about Tav and I will fully understand if you want to send me to the naughty corner;)

[lulusmom]

Hi Denise,

Of course you can ask questions about your sweet Tavish here. He could have a urinary tract infection (UTI) or bladder stones or he could have simply had an accident and you'll never see it happens again. If it continues to happen, however, you should take him to the vet to determine the problem.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed that Tavish just had an accident. :D

Glynda

[addy]

Hi Denise,

You have to come here to ask questions about Tavish, why, where else would you go?????:D:D:D;)

Hopefully, it is just an accident as Glynda said. Is he drinking more water?

I know you will keep a close watch:)

Hugs,
Addy

[jrepac]

Hi Denise,
hope your terriers are doing well...I'm a big fan of all of them! I hope to have another terrier in my home come Spring :)

As Glynda has said, could be a UTI. I'd keep watch and see if it happens again. If so, maybe try to get a clean urine sample and head over to the vet. You don't want a UTI to linger.

Also, keep a watch on water consumption....these sorts of things COULD indicate Cushings or Diabetes, but UTIs are pretty common in terriers....ALL of my Aussie terriers had them at one time or another.

Love your pix, by the way ;)

Jeff, Angel Mandy & Puppy Pebbles

[me and my twiglets]

Thanks everyone.

I got the feeling that Tav ment to pee pee in his bed:confused: There is something not right with him but I'm not sure what.

Would a UTI cause him to leak ? I dont think it was a leak. I saw him jump in the bed then watched him jump out the bed... then I saw the pee pee;)

I was going to take him to the vet the other day ( before he did the pee) but I kept saying to myself "what am I going to say is wrong with him" the vet is sure to say "give me a clue at least " :o and coz Tav hates going to the vets and goes ape when he gets there I thought I'd better try and work out whats what... then today he did the pee:confused: and that added to the oddness:o
I hope its not linked to what my lil Bonnie had:(
Maybe I'll phone the vets in the morning and see what they say.

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

Of course you can ask questions about your sweet Tavish here. He could have a urinary tract infection (UTI) or bladder stones or he could have simply had an accident and you'll never see it happens again. If it continues to happen, however, you should take him to the vet to determine the problem.

Keeping fingers and paws crossed that Tavish just had an accident. :D

Glynda

Thanks Glynda
x

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,

You have to come here to ask questions about Tavish, why, where else would you go?????:D:D:D;)

Hopefully, it is just an accident as Glynda said. Is he drinking more water?

I know you will keep a close watch:)

Hugs,
Addy

Hi Addy
Your right... this is the best place for doggie talk. You are ALL so very kind;)
I feel closer to Bonnie when I come here:( missing her like crazy
xxx

[me and my twiglets]

Hi Denise,
hope your terriers are doing well...I'm a big fan of all of them! I hope to have another terrier in my home come Spring :)

As Glynda has said, could be a UTI. I'd keep watch and see if it happens again. If so, maybe try to get a clean urine sample and head over to the vet. You don't want a UTI to linger.

Also, keep a watch on water consumption....these sorts of things COULD indicate Cushings or Diabetes, but UTIs are pretty common in terriers....ALL of my Aussie terriers had them at one time or another.

Love your pix, by the way ;)

Jeff, Angel Mandy & Puppy Pebbles

Hi Jeff
Thanks for the info. I will keep a very close eye on him.
Nice to hear you may have a lil one on the way...
I only have Tavish now:( I get the feeling he is happy on his own... cant be sure but I think I will get the message if he changes his mind:p
x