9 year old lab mix, atypical cushings (also prev. dxed seizures & hypothyroid)

[hmmcafee]

My dog was just diagnosed with atypical cushings disease. I don't really understand it. He is a 9 year old lab mix. He had been panting very badly, especially in the evening and all night. They tested his blood, and diagnosed him with atypical cushings. He is already on phenobartitol for seizures, and soloxine, due to thyroid problems. I understand those 2 diagnoses, but not this new one. The vet put him on malatonin, twice a day. Not sure how this helps. Any info I can get would be helpful.

[Casey's Mom]

You came to the right place!! We have a lot of members dealing quite successfully with Atypical Cushings. They will be along shortly to help you and answer your questions and in the meantime check out our resource section which will give you some info to help you get started. From what I know they treat this with melatonin and flax lingans. How did your vet come to this diagnosis and do you know which tests were run to confirm atypical cushings? If you could post those results that would help a great deal. We tend to ask lots of questions but that only helps us to help you better.

We are sorry you are dealing with this but are here to help and hold your hand along the way.

[addy]

Hi and Welcome,

My Zoe has both typical and atypical Cushings. We had an ultrasound, full adrenal panel sent to Univeristy Tenn Knoxville, ACTH test, UC:CR Creatinie test and blood serum, blood chemistry and urinalysis. Whew!!! Alot of tests!!!:)

We just started with melatonin and I am adding the lignans next week. I have to introduce things one at a time with Zoe.

Some dogs may feel tired with the melatonin. Depending on the type of lignans, you may see diahrrea.

Reading all you can will help you understand the hormones. Our wonderful experienced members will want your test results to see how the diagnosis was made. That is a good thing!

Zoe has chronic diahrrea that we had to get under control before treatment. One thing I have noticed with the melatonin is she is now proned to being constipated. It might just be a coincidence but when I mentioned it to her vet, she said it could very well be as I start to treat the Cushings, old problems will change, and new ones may occur.

Cushings is a puzzle, hard to fit the pieces sometimes!!!!

Again welcome, read alot and ask alot of questions. we give alot of moral support too:)

Addy

[hmmcafee]

Thanks for the info on atypical cushings. My dog had bloodwork that was sent to the University of Tenn, which I guess is the only place that tests for that. The only symptoms we noticed were heavy panting and drinking some extra water

[lulusmom]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I only have a minute but wanted to give you a link to information on atypical cushing's. Lots of good stuff there.

http://k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi and Welcome from me too. :D

Please do tell us more about the test that your lab underwent. Was there a test called the UTK adrenal panel or ACTH or LDDS? Was there a series of blood test? If so, please post only the abnormal results including the normal range and measurement units.

If you don't have the results, please ask your vet's office to give you a copy, I'm sure they would be happy to do so. Most of us keep copies of all our pups records. :) Some of us have a very thick notebook :p

There is some good information in our resources section to get you started on Atypical cushings. Just click on this shortcut.

http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198

The other more experienced members will be along shortly to ask you the traditional 20 (more or less) questions :p to help better understand your Lab's diagnosis.

We are here to help you understand cushing's and help you and your Lab get through this. :)

ETA - Noticed that Glynda and I were posting at the same time and provided you with the same link, sorry for the duplication. :p

[hmmcafee]

I will get the blood work info from my vet next week, and I will post them. Thanks!

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi and welcome to you and your baby! :)

My Squirt is Atypical as well. She is on melatonin and lignans - a capsule form standardized to 20% SDG. You can also use flax hulls for the lignans; the treatment sheet from UTK should tell you how to find these products. If you have problems or questions, don't hesitate to ask! ;)

As others have said, it would help us help you if we could see the actual results of the UTK panel used to make this diagnosis.

Now, let me see if I can explain Atypical Cushing's. In what is called "true" Cushing's only the hormone, cortisol, is elevated and uncontrolled. Anytime the cortisol is elevated, the pup is considered to have true, or conventional, Cushing's. Some pups, like yours and mine, don't have elevated cortisol but some or all of the five intermediate, or sex, hormones are elevated. Those five hormones are androstenedione, estradiol, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, progesterone and aldosterone. In Squirt's case, four of the five were elevated; the androstenedione was normal. With treatment the aldosterone has returned to normal values while the estradiol and 2 progesterones have come down just not to normal range yet. She has had no treatment other than the melatonin and lignans.

With true Cushing's there is always a tumor involved; either a pituitary tumor which causes the form referred to as PDH, or an adrenal tumor causing the form ADH. In Atypical, there may or may not be a tumor involved. The damages to the body if left untreated are the same as with true Cushing's - organ damage and failure, and muscle deterioration for example.

Usually the first line of treatment is the lignans and melatonin combined so I am a bit perplexed why just the melatonin for your baby. They work together to lower the hormones. Lysodren will address all these hormones with the possible exception of estradiol, depending on where it is being produced, but is usually not prescribed right off. Estradiol is the only one of the five intermediates that can be produced in areas other than the adrenals - like skin, fatty tissue, hair follicles to name a few. Since Lyso only works on the adrenals, it would have no effect if the estradiol were not being produced there - this is why the combination of melatonin and lignans...they will work in all areas of the body to control the estradiol. Did your vet give you a reason for not starting the lignans now as well? Is your baby having some digestive or other issue that would necessitate holding up on the lignans? Have you see the treatment sheet from UTK and, if so, what were their recommendations for treatment at this time? (These are usually listed at the bottom of the results sheet as numbers.) UTK and Dr. Oliver are the premier researchers in the area of Atypical so theirs is the recommendation I would take over any others.

Atypical is usually easier and less stressful to treat. I homecook for Squirt and her meds are mixed in each meal; she just gobbles them right up! :p

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more!

Looking forward to learning more about your baby and you.
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[Bichonluver3]

My Chloe has Atypical Cushings. i can't believe how well she has done on melatonin and flax hulls. Neither can my vet believe it. I thank God every day.

In the morning, she gets:
melatonin 3mg
1/4 tsp ground flax hull with SDG lignans (recommended by Dr Oliver at University of Tennessee).
Cosequin 1 capsule - for her joints
I empty the capsules into a small dish with a little applesauce (all natural - no sugar) and she gobbles it up

At night she gets:
melatonin 3mg
Cosequin 1 capsule
Occu-glo 1 capsulefor her eyes
Again, everything goes into the applesauce

The vet put her on Iams low residue dry food as he said it was gentler on her stomach.

I checked this regime with Dr oliver and he said it was good.

At night, she, once again, is sleeping on our bed since we put the AC on, have the ceiling fan on and a fan on a stand on the floor blows on her. She is very happy with this and has slept peacefully the whole night.

Within the 1st couple of weeks, her panting stopped. her foraging for food and constant drinking/peeing stopped. I have noticed with the Occu-glo her eyes have their sparkle back. We were at the vet's last week re a bug bite and he says it looks to him as if her hind legs are stronger and her tummy has reduced in size.

Chloeing is now running around and barking with her brothers. She is back to dancing around her food dish and playing with the kibble. She will stand on her hind legs to tell us she wants up on the bed.

Soooo.....so far so good!
Carrol & Chloe

[Bichonluver3]

Leslie is right. It is the melatonin and flax HULLS, not oil, that work together. You order the flax hulls online (cold pressed, not chemically altered). The lignans are phytoestrogens which fake out the body and prevent the uptake of more estrogen.

[Bichonluver3]

Sorry this is in bits and pieces!! Just keep thinking of more things - as if I think of anything else!:rolleyes:
Dr Oliver told me that if Chloe exp[erienced any digestive upset to switch from SDG lignans to HMR. But he said they were basically the same and interchangeable.
She is on the low residue diet, not because there is any problem, but we want to reduce ANY stress on her system as possible. Her brothers are also eating as they all have a little bit out of each other's bowls.:)

[hmmcafee]

I just got the blood results from Univ of Tenn. My vet should be calling today to explain, but I thought I'd post them here.


Baseline post ACTH
cortisol 72.2 142.3
androstenedione 1.63 2.90
estradiol 86.2 71.7
progesterone 0.74 1.51
17 OH progesterone 0.51 1.55
aldosterone 24.4 179.0


It looks like 5 of the 6 were abnormal for the baseline, and 2 of the 6 were abnormal post ACTH.

As of now, the vet only has Guiness on melatonin, 6 mg twice a day. I will let you know what he says when I speak with him later. Thanks so much for all the info you have been providing me. Guness and I really appreciate it!

[Bichonluver3]

We'll be waiting but PLEASE ask him about the flax hulls.
Carrol

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks for posting the UTK results for your baby. If you don't mind, could you give us the normal ranges for those values? I might be able go find them from another pups test, but it would be best if you posted what the lab said just in case there have been some changes.

Also, on the result sheet, usually near the bottom, will be the recommendations from UTK - typically listed as numbers, like, "your vet might want to consider numbers 1, 3, 4, and 5 for treatment". Those numbers relate to the treatment sheet and tell what UTK thinks would be the best treatment approach. We really love details! ;):D

About the lignans - either the hulls or a standardized capsule form would work. The flax oil is no longer recommended due to the fat content and the small amount of SDG the oil contains. The capsule and hulls contain a much higher level of SDG, which is what works on the hormones for our babies.

Did your vet explain why Guiness isn't on the lignans yet? The melatonin will help a bit, but it's true power in treating Atypical is when it is combined with the lignans. Looking forward to what you learn from the vet!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[hmmcafee]

The vet felt his numbers were mild, so they wanted to start him out only on the melatonin. Will check again to see if other things need to be added.

[hmmcafee]

I'm going to contact my vet about the ligens. Guiness hasn't seemed to be any better with only the malatonin...actually, the panting is getting worse. He has gained some weight recently, and I'm not sure what's causing that.