Maggie Mae - 4 y/o chihuahua - Atypical (or possibly HRT exposure?)

[suewills]

My almost 4 yo chihuahua has justbe:confused:en diagnosed with atypical chi\ushings disease. When she was 3 yo she started having sever swelling at her vulva. She was then tested and was diagnosed as having both sex organs(male and female)then this year she started loosing her hair. I took her back to my Vet who drew blood and sent it to the University of Tenn thus the diagnosis of Atypical chushing. We are starting melatonin, lignan and lysodren tomorrow. I am told that in about 6 months we will notice a diffrence in her hair and vulva. She is my baby and I am praying this will help her. I had no idea there were so many other pet lovers experiencing this also!!!!!!

[frijole]

Glad you found us. Actually atypical cushings can be easier to treat than traditional as the dose of lysodren is less. We have members with all types of cushings. I have had 2 dogs with cushings, both pituitary type and have used lysodren.

The more you can tell us about Maggie Mae the better we can be of help. Just know you aren't alone on the journey and we'll help answer any questions you might have.

Did you get a copy of the test from UTK? Usually Dr Oliver writes out his recommendations on the report. It would be helpful if you can share that information with us.

My understanding from reading here is that there are different types of lignans and some are more effective... I will let those with experience chime in on that. Meanwhile - do not fear - my first cush dogs was treated for 4 yrs and she just passed at the age of 16 1/2 so MM can lead a very normal life once treated. Kim

[suewills]

I will get a copy of report tomorrow when I pick up her meds. Magge Mae is black and white and is VERY afraid of storms and any loud noises. I learned today from this site that that could be related to atypical cushings?????I just hope her welling will go down with meds. She has to be very uncomfortable as swollen as her vulva is.

[addy]

Hi Maggie Mae,

Just wanted to reach out and say hello and welcome. I'm new too :)

It seems some of us do have pups afraid of thunderstorms, the senior members should be able to clarify if that is a cushing symptom.

I do know that I read the melatonin could help with that.

You will get asked alot of questions here but that is a good thing.

Keep reading and learning.
Addy

[suewills]

Thank you all> I am SOOOO happy I found you!!!I plan to do some research and I too will have a lot of questions.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi and welcome from me and my boy Harley! My boy Harley has very elevated estradiol. When Dr Oliver seen this he said that these high estradiol levels are sometimes seen when owners are using hormone creams, so if you might be doing this, consider being extra-careful with application as the hormones are readily absorbed across the skin of people and pets. And when absorbed the vulva can become quite swollen.

My boy Harley used to be so scared of thunderstorms and then after being put on the melatonin, that fearfulness went away.

It definitely would help us alot more if you could post her results from the UTK panel and the Dr. comments.

As far as the melatonin, you want the regular melatonin...not the fast-acting or rapid-releasing kind. With the lignans, if you are buying flax hulls then you want the ones with the highest SDG. Dr Oliver is also recommending HMR lignans. You can find more information about flax hull lignans and HMR lignans here: http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/20100501-LIGNAN-Write-Up-Revision01.pdf

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[suewills]

As a matter of fact I use a spray that sprays on my arm. I had no idea!!!I I will check into this ASAP. I will get Maggie's labs and comments tomorrow and let eyeryone know. THANK GOD I found this web site!!!!!!:

[acushdogsmom]

high estradiol levels are sometimes seen when owners are using hormone creams, so if you might be doing this, consider being extra-careful with application as the hormones are readily absorbed across the skin of people and pets. And when absorbed the vulva can become quite swollen.


As a matter of fact I use a spray that sprays on my arm. I had no idea!!!I I will check into this ASAP. I will get Maggie's labs and comments tomorrow and let eyeryone know. THANK GOD I found this web site!!!!!!:You might want to read this article (see link below) that one of our Moderators recently alerted us to and which was recently posted on the VIN (Veterinary Information Network) news page, and maybe also print out a copy for your Vet:

Hormone replacement skin products affect users’ pets, confound veterinarians
"Symptoms include swollen vulvas, enlarged mammaries, fur loss"
June 10, 2010
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service


The spreading popularity of topical hormone treatments in people — especially but not exclusively menopausal women — is having unintended medical consequences for the users’ pets.

Spayed dogs and young female puppies are showing up in veterinary exam rooms with markedly swollen vulvas as if they are in heat. Male dogs present with enlarged mammary glands and abnormally small penises. Animals of both genders experience fur loss.

The phenomenon frequently stumps veterinary practitioners; sometimes patients go undiagnosed for weeks or months because clinicians don’t recognize the connection. Medical doctors in the human realm likewise are unfamiliar with the situation, a Veterinary Information Network (VIN) News Service inquiry found.

The problem appears to stem from the use by pet owners of hormone replacement treatments in the form of lotions, gels or sprays that are applied to the arms — especially inner elbows and wrists — or legs. The users then handle and snuggle their animals, unwittingly transferring the drug to the pets.

Full Article can be read here:
http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15950

[Harley PoMMom]

She was then tested and was diagnosed as having both sex organs(male and female)then this year she started loosing her hair.I was wondering if you could tell us exactly what tests were done to confirm that she has both sex organs?

It is a very good possibility that Maggie Mae's issues are from the hormone spray that you are using...her fur-loss and vulva becoming so swollen would abate once you would start using the spray somewhere else where she could not absorb it.

I do hope that you print out a copy of that article and take it along to your vet. Not too many vets are aware of this phenomenon and do not know how to go about treating this.

Remember we are here for you and Maggie Mae, so ask all the questions you want and we will answer them the best we can. :)

Love and hugs,
Lori

[lulusmom]

My almost 4 yo chihuahua has justbe:confused:en diagnosed with atypical chi\ushings disease. When she was 3 yo she started having sever swelling at her vulva. She was then tested and was diagnosed as having both sex organs(male and female)then this year she started loosing her hair. I took her back to my Vet who drew blood and sent it to the University of Tenn thus the diagnosis of Atypical chushing. We are starting melatonin, lignan and lysodren tomorrow. I am told that in about 6 months we will notice a diffrence in her hair and vulva. She is my baby and I am praying this will help her. I had no idea there were so many other pet lovers experiencing this also!!!!!!

Hi Sue and a belated welcome to the forum.

Given your babies precious young age and the only onset of symptoms being a swollen vulva and loss of hair, I truly believe that the problem is your hormone replacement therapy. As Lori mentioned, this is a relatively new finding, one that has confounded many vets which is why Lori has suggested you print out the VIN article. If your vet is skeptical, this article should convince him.

Dr. David Bruyette, a reknown endocrinologist and the Medical Director at VCA West Los Angeles Hospital, has dealt with this and if I were in your shoes, I'd have the vet consult with him to discuss Maggie Mae's case. Her treatment may be as simple as you changing where you apply your HRT creme or spray. Dr. Bruyette is actually a member here but it has been quite some time since we've heard from him. :( He can be reached at 310-473-2951.

I am curious to know what tests your vet did to determine that Maggie Mae has both male an female sex organs. Can you please get copies of the diagnostic tests and let us know? Also, is Maggie Mae intact or was she spayed?

I'm truly sorry for the circumstances that brought you here but the good news is that you and Maggie Mae may be short timers here if her only problem is your HRT. Of course, if that turns out to be the case, we'd still love for you to stay with us.

Glynda

P.S. I see that Lori posted before I did so please forgive any duplication.

[addy]

My IMS mentioned this very thing when Zoe was diagnosed. She wanted to know if I was using any type of horme cream. In my case, the answer was no.

Gee, at least I know she is keeping up with the latest research, that's a good thing :)

Wish it would have been that simple for Zoe.

Addy

P.S. Just a silly thought, are their hormones in our food supply? Or theirs? Zoe licks my husband's elbow and wrist. Actually, her licking made his karpal tunnel better. Weird, huh?

[bernie47]

hi Maggie Mae,
welcome to you and your little girl ,as you can see i have one to !.. i found your post very interesting regarding the use of hormone cream ..and its reactions ..
hope all goes well for you ... and you are in very good hands..here ..cheers ! Catherine west / Australia. ;)

[suewills]

Maggie was born 9-1-2006. She was spayed 2-2007 at 5 months of age. She had no problems until the end of June/first of July 2009. I noticed her vulva and nipples being swollen and her urinating often. I took her to the vet we were using at the time and she was treated for urinary infection. She was no better after 1 week of medication. We took her back to the same vet that wanted to keep her and sedate her to do a special xray(?) My husband picked her up and she was still very groggy and also burned under her neck and chest area rather severly. We were very upset and We took her to another vet , who we are using now. He has run multiple blood test and ultrasounds. He also at first thought she had ovarian remnant syndrome. She had exploratory surgery the later part of July. She did have a stump and tissue that was removed but no ovarian remnant. We tried other meds and creams that were injected in her , none that worked. Our vet had a college that is at the University of Ga that came to Albany as a favor to him. He examined Maggie thoroughly and did a very thorough ultrasound. He was the vet that thought she was a hermaphrodite. We stopped treatment then as we thought it was just something she would have to deal with. Then a couple of months ago we noticed that she was loosing her hair. Our vet immediatly suspected cusihings diease. I talked to him on Friday and showed him the artical that you suggested. He showed me her lab results. Dr. Oliver said that her results show moderate presence of increased adrenal activity. Her values were increased in her sex steroid pathway and not gluco or mineralcorticoids pathway. She started her Lysodren and melatonin but we are having problems finding the pure form of lignan. I hope that in about 6 months she will notice a diffrence. I am still going to have my gyno change my spray to another form of HRT or I will just stop them. That was too scary!!!Thank you for all your help.

[Harley PoMMom]

Number 10 on the treatment option sheet from the University of Tenneessee from Dr. Oliver's lab it says:
10) Hormone cream exposure. Products may contain estrogen/progestins/testosterone; may result in high serum levels of estradiol and progestins, as well as nipple, vulva, and clitoris enlargement.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/TreatmentInfoAtypicalCushings201005.pdf

I strongly urge you or your vet to contact Dr. Oliver by email and consult with him about Maggie Mae's case. His email address is: joliver@utk.edu I have emailed him many times about my boy Harley and he was always very courteous and prompt with his replies.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[acushdogsmom]

Dr. Oliver said that her results show moderate presence of increased adrenal activity. Her values were increased in her sex steroid pathway and not gluco or mineralcorticoids pathway.


Number 10 on the treatment option sheet from the University of Tenneessee from Dr. Oliver's lab it says:

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/TreatmentInfoAtypicalCushings201005.pdf

I strongly urge you or your vet to contact Dr. Oliver by email and consult with him about Maggie Mae's case. His email address is: joliver@utk.edu I have emailed him many times about my boy Harley and he was always very courteous and prompt with his replies.

Love and hugs,
LoriI'm not a vet, and this is just my two cents, but I agree with Lori.

Dr. Oliver can only recommend treatment based on the information that he has, and unless he knows that you have been using HRT cream on your arms, he has no way of knowing that the increased "sex steroids" levels in the test results could be due to your dog having absorbed some of your HRT cream over time, through her skin or even maybe ingested if she licks your arms. Unless he knows about the owner using HRT cream, he has to assume that the increased sex steroids are being produced by the adrenal glands of the dog herself, and treatment would be recommended accordingly.

Maybe if Dr. Oliver knew that the dog's owner has been using a topically applied HRT cream, he might change his treatment recommendations?

I don't know what the vet who did the ultrasound saw in the u/s imaging, but he (or any vet) can also only go by what he knows about the case, and if he did not know about your HRT cream use, then I guess that he would have to assume that any abnormalities that he saw were due to another reason (hermaphroditism).

I think if your dog were mine, I'd want to rule out the possibility of the HRT cream being the root cause of the swollen vulva, hair loss etc before starting with the Lysodren or any other treatment, because if it is all being caused by the HRT cream, then all you'd need to be doing in the way of treatment would be to make sure your dog no longer has any contact with the cream. It could take some time for symptoms to completely subside (in the article I think it said that for at least one of the dogs it took a year) but honestly, I don't know why your Vet isn't taking the use of the HRT cream more seriously.

I was sure that you were going to come back and tell us that when you told your Vet about the HRT cream you've been using on your arms and showed him that article, that he'd had a huge "aha" moment and was going to consult with Dr. Oliver and maybe also an Internal Medicine Specialist Vet or something, to see if maybe your Maggie Mae is one of these cases where the HRT cream is the cause of what could easily be misdiagnosed as "atypical" Cushing's if you took the HRT cream out of the equation.

P.S. If you and/or your Vet do contact Dr. Oliver by e-mail (or any other way) make sure to include Maggie Mae's case number and the date of the testing so that he can access her test results sheet. The case number should be on the report from UTK.

[lulusmom]

Hi again,

I can honestly say that I can't remember one case of atypical cushing's here, and we've seen plenty, where the dog had a swollen vulva, nipples or clitoris. It doesn't appear that these are common symptoms associated with atypical cushing's unless the use of HRT by the pet owner is involved. I therefore second Lori's suggestion to contact Dr. Oliver and let him know about Maggie Mae's symptoms and the probable connection to your HRT. I would hate for you to give Maggie Mae Lysodren or Melatonin and Lignans if you don't have to. Dr. Oliver's time and valuable advice is free so you and Maggie Mae have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

[frijole]

I agree with the others! Never seen it and I am betting that is the culprit. Better to email Dr. Oliver - he is really a great guy and he WILL respond and he does it for free. He is one of the best in his field so it is a real treat. Your situation is unique - so nothing to lose at all! Kim

[suewills]

I am really confused. I just emailed Dr. Oliver. I don't want to offend my vet but I want what is best for my precious Maggie Mae. Thank you all so much for your advice.

[suewills]

My email failed to Dr. Oliver.Any suggestions??? Nevermind it finally went throught. He is out of the office until 7-6-10 . Hope he will answer me soon. Thanks again!!!!

[apollo6]

I did contact Dr. Oliver by email this is a copy of his response.
One more thing. If your veterinarian wanted input on what we do at Tennessee, I’d be more than happy to discuss things with him (865-974-5729). Jack.
Hope this helps.

[addy]

aw, don't tell me that. I have been waiting for him to answer my email about Zoe. I gave him her case number from her adrena panel. Did you give him a case number? I knew he was out until the 6th.

I felt funny emailing directly also but, hey, hopefully my IMS will understand we do whatever we have to do for our pups, if that includes stepping on a few toes, so be it:)

Addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Sue,

I am so happy that you wrote to Dr. Oliver. I don't believe Dr. O has ever not responded to anyone so I promise, he will get back to you. I've always been a proactive mom in my dog's treatment and I've offended one or two of our ex vets, ex being the key word. These two couldn't get past their own ego....my dogs' disease is not about them and their egos....it's about my furbutts' well being and if they don't want to listen to me or answer my questions if something didn't sit right with me, then we're outta there. We moved on to an internal medicine specialist that treats hundreds of cushdogs and appreciates the fact that I'm an educated pet owner. Hopefully, your vet will appreciate the fact that you took the initiative and maybe even taught him a thing or two. You wouldn't be the first member to help a vet with continuing education. :D

[suewills]

I did not get the copy of Dr. O's response. Could you send it again???

[suewills]

Hello everyone!!! I received a reply from Dr. Oliver see below:


The results for your dog Maggie are very consistent with what is seen with the use of hormone creams. The estradiol levels are quite elevated along with both progesterone and 17-OHP. Both progestins are precursors to androstenedione, which is also elevated. I would suspect your dog is being exposed to the HRT even though you probably are being careful in placing it where you wouldn’t expect Maggie to become exposed. It does seem like it takes longer than you would expect for the hormone levels to go down once the hormone cream (or spray) exposure is terminated; possibly because it gets sequestered in fat and other tissues.



>>>>I’m going to forward an article from VIN on hormone cream exposure which talks about most of the issues. Regards, Jack.

I have sent this to my vet, who has not responded as of yet. I have contacted my gyno who will not change my HRT until my appt in August. Needless to say, I am stopping them tonight. Pray for me and especially my husband!!!! I feel relief but still a lot of concern. Maggie has been exposed now for over a year....Do you know of anything to do except stop HRT?????

[AlisonandMia]

It must be a relief of sorts to get this info from Dr. O. Isn't he great!

I think in that article mentions someone who switched to using the cream on the inner thigh area. I'd think anywhere on your upper body could be a problem with contact with a small dog. Could be something to ask your dr. about.

I'm guessing your husband has also been exposed to this product - even if he isn't showing any effects from it - which is a worry. I can see the day when this stuff is only going to be available via transdermal patch because of the risk of it rubbing off onto others in the environment. (I think you can get similar products through transdermal patch.)

You'd also need to be careful with a spray getting into the air too, I'd think.

Alison

[acushdogsmom]

Hello everyone!!! I received a reply from Dr. Oliver see below:


The results for your dog Maggie are very consistent with what is seen with the use of hormone creams. The estradiol levels are quite elevated along with both progesterone and 17-OHP. Both progestins are precursors to androstenedione, which is also elevated. I would suspect your dog is being exposed to the HRT even though you probably are being careful in placing it where you wouldn’t expect Maggie to become exposed. It does seem like it takes longer than you would expect for the hormone levels to go down once the hormone cream (or spray) exposure is terminated; possibly because it gets sequestered in fat and other tissues.

>>>>I’m going to forward an article from VIN on hormone cream exposure which talks about most of the issues. Regards, Jack.


I have sent this to my vet, who has not responded as of yet. I have contacted my gyno who will not change my HRT until my appt in August. Needless to say, I am stopping them tonight. Pray for me and especially my husband!!!! I feel relief but still a lot of concern. Maggie has been exposed now for over a year....Do you know of anything to do except stop HRT?????

Well, there you go! With Dr. Oliver of the UTK Lab agreeing with you about the HRT cream exposure very likely being the cause of Maggie's "sex steroid elevations" and the resulting symptoms (the swollen areas and the fur loss) your Vet will have to pay attention now.

I bet that the article That Dr. Oliver said he'd be forwarding on to you is the same VIN article that we showed you already.

Hormone replacement skin products affect users’ pets, confound veterinarians
June 10, 2010
By: Edie Lau
For The VIN News Service

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15950


If Dr. Oliver didn't say what his treatment recommendations would be now that he knows about the HRT cream exposure, write him back and ask him. I'm sure he'd be glad to tell you (and your Vet).

I am guessing that Dr. Oliver would now amend his original treatment recommendations (which were Lysodren/melatonin/lignans I think?) and just tell you to make sure that Maggie has no further exposure to the cream, and that the symptoms should subside within several months or maybe longer. He might recommend doing another adrenal panel down the road at some point, to check the "sex steroid" levels again (estradiol, progesterone and also the 17-OHP) - maybe once the symptoms have begun to subside or are almost completely gone.

I am sooooo glad that you found us and that you were able to find the information here that you and Maggie needed! :D :D :D

[suewills]

I am SO glad I found you guys!!!Yes it was the very same article. I think I will send Dr. Oliver another e mail just in case I don't get the response I want from my vet. I am trying to figure out how to do an album so I can send pictures of my Maggie , still new at this so I am still working at it. THANK you all again for your support and valuable information.

[frijole]

Good idea on contacting Dr Oliver. He is THE specialist and no matter who the regular vet is, they should be listening to the advice of Dr O. Yours is a very rare situation and I would point blank ask Dr O for his revised recommended dosing and then present it to your vet. Way too complicated for a regular vet to figure out without the help of a specialist in my opinion. So glad you found us and that whomever read that article here took the time to post it for us all to learn!!! Kim

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi,

I have been reading yours and Maggie's thread with interest as this is the first time I have heard of this connection to a HRT. This story has help me understand more about Cushing's, as I am sure it has others here as well. This reminds me of a segment of "House" where a man is using a hormone cream and accidentally exposes his very pre-pubescent daughter...who suddenly exhibits signs of menstruation and early maturation. He stopped the cream and she returned to her little girl state.

So, if House and, my favorite guru, Dr O see these creams as potential hazards...that's enough for me! :D

I hope you find an acceptable alternative to the cream, not only for Maggie's sake, but for anyone who may be exposed via physical contact. Not having something is a real booger...that I can attest to! :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[suewills]

Below is the 2nd response to Dr. O. when I asked him about treatment if it is my HRT spray:


You might forward the VIN article to him. It’s the best documentation I’ve seen on hormone cream exposure. If the hormones are coming from the cream, then the drugs probably aren’t helping that much. Melatonin and lignan might inhibit conversion of androstenedione into more estradiol. You might try putting the HRT where your dog can’t get to it, stop the treatment for 6 months, and see if improvement has occurred. Regards, Jack.

I have not heard back from my vet yet from the 1st response I got from Dr. O. I stopped my HRT treatment last night on my own. I think even if my vet does not agree I am going to stop Maggie's treatment and wait for 6 months to see what happens. If I don't stop and she gets better he will think it is the treatment and she will have to stay on meds the rest of her life. If it does not help then I can resume in 6 months, RIGHT? If he does not agree then I don't have a lot of options of vets here in Leesburg,GA. He is one of the best ones here. Do you know if there are any side effects to keeping her on the Melatonin?She is severly afraid of bad weather and any other loud or diffrent noises. She hyperventilates and shakes to bad, it is pitiful. We have even tried her on tranqulizers but even a fraction of the dosage makes her a zombie!Thank you all for your concern and input.

[AlisonandMia]

Hopefully your vet will "come to the party" now.;)

I would think that the melatonin and lignans couldn't hurt and could help as Dr. O said. Melatonin is also said to help with things like storm phobia and to have a generally calming effect - but it can make them a bit dopey too, depending on the dose and the dog. But the only way to find out would be to try.

It would certainly be best to avoid using Lysodren if she doesn't need it though! Was your vet thinking of loading with it (giving daily doses for a while and then going to a maintenance dose) or was he wanting to go straight to a maintenance dose? You certainly wouldn't want to load unnecessarily! And if the source of the hormones is not her adrenals then the Lysodren cannot possibly help - Lysodren only affects the adrenals.

One thing you may want to keep an eye on from now on is the possibility of mammary tumors. Dogs not spayed before their first heat are more prone to mammary tumors because of the hormones' effect on the mammary tissue, so you'd think that this hormone exposure could very likely have had the same effect. These tumors seem very often to be cured with surgery if caught early - so regular checks (by you, mostly) would probably be a good idea for the rest of her life.

Alison

[suewills]

Thank you, again!He put her on a maintance does of 1ml 3x weekly. She hasn;t started the lignan yet, we can't find it here, he was going to order it for me.

[frijole]

I can tell you that I have used melatonin as a calming agent for a skiddish dog afraid of storms and firecrackers! Since MM is a tiny dog you will want a tiny dose. Annie is around 14 lbs and I give her 1/2 of a 3 mg pill. I just bought them from GNC. If she is going to bed that dose is good. If it is during the day just to keep her calm I go with 1/4 of a pill.

Kim

[AlisonandMia]

Here's some info on hormone creams (human info only): http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=15632

Looks like good basic info on the current thinking on hormone creams/ topical hormone treatment.

Alison

[suewills]

Never heard from our vet, so Maggie and I both are off our meds. Hopefully we will notice a diffrence in about 6 months!

Moderator's Note: Sue, I have merged your new thread concerning stopping Maggie's medication into Maggie's origina thread. Normally, we like to keep all posts on a pup in a single thread. That way it is easier for members to refer back for the pup's history.

[lulusmom]

Thanks for the update. For what it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing and I would do the same in your position. I do hope you'll keep us posted on how things are going.

[suewills]

I definetly will. I appreciate you all so much!!I really feel like you saved mine and Maggie's lives. I posted a picture of her on my album so you could see just how swollen she is.

[acushdogsmom]

I can't believe that your Vet hasn't even gotten back to you. Even if it's because after hearing that Dr. Oliver agrees that this whole time it has likely been the HRT cream that was causing all the swelling and fur loss etc that he's embarrassed that he never thought of it himself - he should at least get back to you. He seemed to know enough to send the blood samples out to University of Tennessee in the first place, so you'd think he'd respect what Dr. Oliver thinks now that Dr. O. knows about your HRT cream use. Your Vet should be glad that he learned something new that might even benefit other patients of his at some point.

Are you sure he has seen the most recent messages from you about Dr. Oliver and the article etc?

Maybe you should be looking for another Vet? After all, the time may come when you need a Vet for Maggie and how can you trust or work with this one anymore if he won't even acknowledge what you found out directly from Dr. Oliver himself?

[O'Riley]

Sue, have you noticed a change in Maggie Mae's eyes? The eyes in the newer photo seem protruded compared to her younger photos. Is it possible that when she experienced the severe neck burns from the x-rays, that the radiation damaged her thyroid gland and caused a hyperthyroid condition or something similar? Obviously this wouldn't have been the cause of her initial symptoms, and it seems you've already figured out that your hormone therapy is causing those....but could some of the post-xray problems (like hair loss) be thyroid-related, thus compounding her problems?

~Rose

[suewills]

Thank you for your concern. I haven;t noticed any change in her eyes. A thyroid panel was supposed to be one of the test my vet ran along with the test he sent to Dr. O. I am going to call and request a copy of ALL of her labs , if he will respond. I will try to find the picture I took of her burns and add it to my album.

[suewills]

My vet called me today to check on Maggie. His office staff did not give him my fax. I told him I had stopped mine and Maggie's meds. He understood why and said we could do some labs in a month to see how she was. I asked him if he would contact Dr. Oliver and he said he would be glad to. He called me a little later and said that they agreed that if my HRT spray has more than estrogen in it then it would very well be my spray but if it only has estrogen in it then it is atypical cushings because all of her sex hormones were elevated. He asked me to bring the rx insert so that he can read about it. My husband will take it tomorrow but I read it and I only see estrogen. He was very impressed with Dr. O and was not upset at all. He said he only wants what is best for Maggie. Needless to say, I feel a lot better about that but am concerned again about the cushings.

[lulusmom]

Hi Sue,

I've merged your last post with your original thread so that we have Maggie Mae's history in one place.

I'm not sure why your vet thinks that if estrogen is the only compound in your hormone creme then it isn't the cause of Maggie Mae's problems. I didn't get that impression when I read the VIN news article on this matter. Hopefully, Dr. Oliver can explain things. Another great source of information would be Dr. David Bruyette, a reknown endocrinologist, who has treated three or four dogs who presented with the same symptoms Maggie Mae has. He determined in all cases that the owner's hormone cream was the problem and followed the dogs through until they were back to normal. You may want to give your vet the link I've provided below. This article provides information, including who to contact to report these type of cases to the Veterinary Information Network as well as the FDA.

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=15950

Glynda

P.S. Dr. Bruyette's number is (310) 473-2957

[O'Riley]

Sue, I am so glad it sounds like you're getting to the bottom of this mystery.

Reading about Maggie Mae got me thinking....If hormones like those that Sue is using are adversely influencing the health of dogs, is it possible that the "insect growth regulator" hormones in the flea products we use on our pets, our carpeting, our grass, etc. are also contributing to health problems? I go out of my way to make sure the meat and chicken I feed my dogs is hormone-free, but what about the so-called non-toxic flea preventatives? Are these products exposing my animals to hormones that could be upsetting and interfering with the natural hormonal balance?

IGR's:
http://www.vetinfo.com/flea-products-with-igr-insect-growth-regulators.html

[suewills]

Sorry it has been a while. Please look at Maggie's new pictures and see how wonderful she is doing now. She is looking even better than the new pictures as she has no bald spots on her belly at all now. She is on Melatonin, Lignan HMR and Lysodern. She has not had any side effects so far and is back to her old self again.

[lulusmom]

Hi Sue,

Thank so much for the great update on Maggie. I love happy updates. I just looked at her pictures and what a difference. She looks great!!! I was thinking about you lately because you are one of few members whose dog may have been symptomatic because of a hormone cream. I was wondering if you quit applying it or made changes as to where you apply it?

Glynda

[suewills]

I totally stopped. I figured that anything that could have that effect on my Maggie , what was it doing to myself and everyone else I came in contact with. Even though that turned out not to be Maggie's problem I was still greatly concerned.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sue,

Good to hear from you again and especially good to get a great report on Maggie. She looks just GREAT! Her coat and skin are so pretty. You done good, Mom! :)

Thanks for sharing your good news! We always love to hear positive reports!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang