Apollo fought with grace and dignity to the end, My little angel warrior

[MBK]

Sonja -

So sorry you are going through a rough patch with Apollo. My heart breaks every time I read of yet another complication these furry babies are having. Sometimes it feels like we are all continually patching up a dam - every time we plug up one leak, another one springs. It can all be so exhausting emotionally and physically.

Keep on plugging.

Keeping you in my thoughts and wishing Apollo good health!

Love,

Mary Beth, Alivia and Maxwell

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

I have probably asked this before and you have probably answered but I don't remember and don't want to look back thru 70+ pages. :o So please bear with me if this is repetitious. :o

Is there a reason you stick with Trilo? Trilo does cause trembling, as Addy pointed out. I keep wondering if Lyso might not work better for Apollo - is there a reason you don't use it?

I hope he has a good day today....and you, too.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[littleone1]

Hi Sonja,

Just a thought. Corky's jaws were trembling and his teeth were actually chattering over a year ago. That's when Corky's thyroid level got too low, and his thryroid meds had to be increased for awhile. Have you had Apollo's thyroid level checked?

[rbeasl]

Hi Sonja,

I just want you to know that I have learned so much from your thread. You are such a great Mom to Apollo. I get so happy when he is doing better and so down when he is not feeling good, that I have to stay away from the site for a couple of days... It is so hard to deal with our babies not feeling well, it makes us sick also...

Keep up the good work... My thoughts and Prayers are with you two.

Rhondalyn and Honey

[apollo6]

Thank you all for your input
Mary Beth, Alivia and Maxwell appreciate the thoughtfulness. You could not have said it any better. I feel like Apollo has fires all over his body and I only have one hose to put out the fires.
Thank you Leslie. I am trying to figure out what is going on with Apollo and I am afraid to switch him to Lysodren. But I am puzzled by his issues? When he started over a year ago on the TRilostane he was doing fine , but like you said the jaw trembling must have to do with the Trilostane. The muscle weakness is still baffling . Is it the Trilostane, don't think so, is it the intermediate hormones that do rise because of Trilostane? It has not gotten better, he now has problems with the front legs also. I am very afraid. The skin infections have improved somewhat but have not fully resolved themselves, now he has cal cultics( forgot the spelling) in a few places.
Thank you Rhondalyn and Honey , I sometimes have to stay off the site for awhile when I read another one has died or has gotten more ill. It is so heartbreaking.

Dear Terry i did have his thyroid check it was low but it improved on Trilostane.
Dear Addy, thank you for the input. I just can't remember if it got worse on Trilostane. The physical therapy helps somewhat. I am afraid of losing my baby boy. I just can't go there.
If things don't improve I will have to reevaluate Trilostane.
Now he seems to be urinating a lot, but not drinking more and I am wondering if he is diabetic?
I just feel hopeless at times. But my mother will say, just for today Apollo is here and doing the best that he can. He is such a little trooper.

HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Dearest Sonja,

My heart breaks when I know you despair so. I don't have any answers except to tell you I love you and am sending hugs and prayers that somehow you will find a way.

If the goal of treatment is to alleviate those symptoms we are so concerned over then we have to ask ourselves that very question. What symptoms were you most concerned about that lead you to start treatment and have they resolved? If they have not and his cortisol is controlled but we also have new problems then we again have to look to the medication or another cause.

The melatonin and lignans, when they work, can take 3-6 months. Zoe's levels went down barely in 3 months but she is so drug sensitive and the symptoms that bothered me the most got progressively worse as the cortisol got higher.

When our hearts are heavy and we feel such sadness, sometimes if we step back and try to find something positive, if we can, it helps. Focus on one good thing that happens for Apollo today, no matter how small it may be.

And know we are all here for you, sending all our love and prayers and we hold your hand, bringing you strength.

All my love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Thank you for your words. The positive is Apollo's thyroid is normal reading, his cortisol is somewhat better. Will just take each day as it comes. Mom got me to start a journal on the positive things with Apollo. I think this will help me see the progress and focus more on that then the sit backs.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Have a fun weekend.

[HarrysMom]

Sonja,
You can go to a local drug store and get a product called ketodiastix to test for sugar in urine. If Apollo is diabetic, he will have sugar in his urine. Better than spending $$$ at the vet to do urinalysis / blood work.

[MBK]

Dear Sonja -

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I know the feeling of helplessness you are experiencing and needing to take a break from it all. Your mother seems very wise. That is a great idea. It may help you to see patterns and to remember the good thigs that we sometimes overlook when were are so worried about everything else.

Addy always has helpful words of wisdom, too. I just learned something from HarrysMom - good to know.

We are sending warm thoughts your way for both you and Apollo. You take great care of him.

[apollo6]

Dear Harry's mom, and Mary and the kids , thank you for your comfort.
Apollo throw up yellow bile again this morning, no food. Still has the stomach gurgling and gas. Stick bombs!!!:eek: I gave him a tiny bit of pepcid in his food. I really have to watch him overheating very easily now.
Yesterday he walked from my Mom's car port to her apartment and this morning he walked a little outside on the positive. Journaling about the positive. Mom once again said" Apollo has an illness and he is older and he is doing the best he can under the circumstances. " Need to accept it is what it is and that he may never be able to walk normal again. But I keep hoping for miracles. We all need a glimpse of hope, and faith.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Will post a funny email I got on everything else.

[lulusmom]

Sonja, have you talked to your vet about testing to see if Apollo may need twice daily dosing. It is possible that you may not need a miracle, just an acth and a urine cortisol creatinine ratio.

[addy]

Sending love and hugs dear friend. I gave Zoe her pepcid without any food and waited 25 minutes to feed her. Will Apollo eat just a piece of pill? Or maybe wrap it in some soft meat and then wait to feed him. It may work better.

Koko throws up bile too so he has to have little snack at lunch time and before bed. I should try a pepcid on him:D:D:D:D:D

One good thing for Zoe this morning- she focused on me and ignored the lunging snarling dog on our walk. He was only five feet away. And she was a tiny bit perkier on our walk.

What is your one good thing today? I will check back later to hear all about it;)

Love,
Addy, Zoe and Koko too.

[MBK]

Sonja, you sure have a VERY wise mother! She sounds like she is a huge support and you are lucky to have her.

I think Addy is on to something. There should be a new thread called, "One good thing today". I think we could all stand to remember the little things and a separate thread with only positive things might help us all.

[apollo6]

Dear Glynda,
Addy and ,
Thank you for your input. I have a few more weeks before the next test. full blood panel, acHT STIM, and intermediate hormones.
My neighbor says Apollo is walking better,and Apollo's therapist says he is doing better.
Dear Glynda will run the twice daily dosage with vet. He throw up yellow bile Monday morning all over the bed. I had to wash everything. I gave him is normal breakfast with pepcid. He has been fine all week. The large black spot on his check is starting to fill in with hair.
The hardest thing is accepting this disease and realizing some of the loses with skin infections, jaw trembling, weakened muscles is not going to go away. Maybe get a little better.
So on the positive side , Apollo still is eating , still is pooping some good some not so good. He walked over to his other girlfriend this morning and walked down to two townhouses on his own. I have to go he is barking for his dinner. Love you all. will keep you posted
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

I'm laughing because you said he is barking for his dinner and Zoe does that as well. I think it is cute Apollo is barking for his dinner:p:p

I think I am hearing little tidbits of good news scattered throughout your posts. it is happening more and more dearest friend.

Love,
Addy

[Rene]

Hi Sonja!

We are back from our trip and I missed hearing of our boy's anitcs!

I like Mary Beth's idea of "One Good Thing Today!". That would make a great thread. She should start it!

Sounds like Apollo had two today...women and food :D

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

[apollo6]

Dear Addy and Rene
Thank you for your input. Mom has me writing something positive which happens to Apollo each day. It helps me to stop seeing how often he falls and now the front legs are having problems.
Today he got up on the couch by himself, up the small stairs.:eek::D:eek::D Don't know how he did it. And the little old man is quite a Casanova-Zoe long distance, Snoopy(wants to hump) girl friend across the street-Princess Lea a shih tzu. He ignores her when she kisses him. In the morning he walks across the street/driveway to look up at the balcony to see if she is there. What can I say. He likes all ages, babies, young , seniors. He isn't fuzzy. But they have to be cute looking. Dido to that.
I think I will have to increase his dosage or do something-front and back legs weak, falls over, skin infections. But he is alert. He sat up in the car today when he was lying on my Mom's lap to see outside.
From Rene's suggestion , I am going to try raw food. I am desperate to help my boy.
This is the brand rating-Natures Variety.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/natures-variety-dog-food-raw-frozen/
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

Apollo is such a determined little sole. Im right there with you wanting to help him fix his little body!

Snoop was refusing all the other food so we had to try the raw. I really was leary of it. Go slow until we we know it is for our boy. But, it really worked for her! Why she was refusing the other foods i'll never know...it's funny...sometimes I think they know what is best for them.

The protein boost from the raw seemed to really help her with her catabolic muscle wasting syndrome...that and getting her cortosol and hormones down. Her body was cannibalizing itself.

I also added HCG's as a energy source and as a much needed healthy metabolized fat source. (I use a spoonful of Barlean's 100% organic virgin coconut oil, as it is also a natural internal antibiotic for immune support...gums, bladder, ect...it can also be used externally to heal black spots, ecezma, sores, ect.)

L-Glutamine is also good for muscle wasting syndrome especially when coupled with other amino acids such as L-Arginne and HMG. (I use 1/2 teaspoon of Juven, unflavored if you can find it).

I still have some of the orange flavor I want to get to you. It was too late to call you tonite when I got off work so I though I would post. Maybe someone else would find intresting.

Whatever you decide clear it with your vet and go slow. Do one thing at a time so you know what it was that worked!

One Good Thing Today (Snoop met me at he door...tail wagging...after a long day with the knuckleheads!)

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

[apollo6]

Dear Addy and Rene
Thank you for the input.
Rene you are amazing with the knowledge and suggestions you have.
Will look up the Barlean's 100% organic virgin coconut oil. I am already giving Apollo the L-Glutamine. I bought nature's Valley, freeze dried and frozen raw nuggets(a small bag of 12 nuggets to try) Apollo ate the freeze dried treat right a way. I put less the 1/2 a nugget in his breakfast and will put the other 1/2 in his lunch or dinner. I found a pet shop in Point Loma that specializes in raw and organic pet food-Point Loma Pet Pantry? The Steve's real food was a large bag and I don't have room in my freezer for such a large bag.
I went to Pet People and bought Nature's Variety there. Thanks to you Rene, I checked on http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/
on the brand. 5 stars.
Also it says before you start raw should make sure pet takes probiotics(acidophilus) and digestive enzymes which Apollo is already taking.
Dear Addy and Rene, we have become doctors, scientists, nutritionists, physical therapists and chefs just trying to help our babies. :eek::D:o:cool: No wonder I am so exhausted and add administrators, secretaries. Goes for all the members on this forum.
Still can't get Apollo to give me a raise.:eek:
Rene will get to get with you about the Juven. Wallgreen has. It is expensive. I looked on Amazon. Trying to see if I can get anywhere else.
Too early for positive, but Apollo did walk outside, just sat there for awhile and did his business.
hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

The little things I have picked up with my menagerie over the years have been serendipitious...some good...some bad. I try to pass along what has worked for us.

A couple more little tips. I liked the moderate protein, lower carbs and especially the quarter inch cubes of the Steve's. It was also more cost effective because of the big 10lb bags. When I bring the bag home I just break the big bag down by taking snack baggies and put how much Snoop eats each day into the snack baggies. I put the snack baggies into a few gallon freezer baggie and store in different places in the freezer...like in the door. Every evening I take one snack baggie out of the freezer and put it into the referigerator to thaw. The next day I just feed the Snoopster several small meals from the snack baggie until it is gone.

One more thing about the raw. Go to target, wallmart or cosco and buy small disposable paper cereal bowls in the bulk pack. Feed one meal in it and throw it away! This will reduce any chance of bacteria transfering to you or your kitchen. Think of handling the food just like you would when preparing raw chicken. Wash your hands, ect. Don't worry about Apollo. His digestive tract is shorter and they don't have the issues that humans do. But, because he does have a compromised immune system...go slow. The raw can be just what his system needed or not!

Also, you mentioned Nature's Variety dry food. The treats I was feeding Snoopie and Apollo at the park were actually Nature's Variety Prairie "Lamb Meal & Oatmeal Medley". I am not a fan of grain baised or dry food but this one has oatmeal as the second ingredient and is supposed to be freeze dried raw as opposed to a overprocessed conventional dry. Oatmeal is suppose to be helpful in removing ammonia and other toxins which our cush pup's liver and kidneys need a little extra help with. So, I have replaced all "treats" that may not be so good for Snoop with this "freeze dried raw" dog food. She thinks they are "treats" and because they are not she can have as many as I want to give her. Hasn't hurt and she appriciates it!

About the Juven. There are fourteen 24g individual packages to a box that you are suppose to mix with water for a human serving. (I think I saw six or eight pack boxes somewhere too). Each 24g package has 14 servings if you caculate the L-Arginne/L-Glutamine at 500mg a serving. So, in just one of the packages you can get fourteen 1/2 teaspoon servings! I have a bunch of the orange flavor that Snoopie did'nt care for that you are welcome to.

One Good Thing Today...Snoop is rolling her treat ball all over the place (w/the Prairie Oatmeal inside) like madd...driving me madd! :p....GESH...now she is barking because it is EMPTY!!!
Rene & Barky Butt

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

About the raw, you can easily defrost the cubes in a glass, covered container and feed it in a stainless steel bowl and just wash his bowl well with hot sudsy water. We have never gotten sick from Zoe's raw. I wash my counter tops with vinegar and water in a spray bottle and the floor under her bowl with the same thing. I add Embark to Zoe's raw.

Mary Strauss's Dogaware site has tons of information on raw and the different commercial frozen diets. She writes for Whole Dog Journal. If you have questions, you can email her and she will answer you. She has been a big help to me.

Nature's Variety did have some recalls on their raw frozen cubes last year. I don't remember all the details but I am sure you could google it.

Hoping Apollo does well. :):):)

Love ya,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Thank you so much for telling me about the recall. Now I wonder if I should throw out the raw that I got. I was so proud of my self for picking this. Will try to get the Steve's raw food instead.
I have started mixing oh so little raw into his diet-Nature's Variety rated 5 stars.
Taking mom and Apollo to the cove for a walk then church there.
Apollo will be in his red stroller wearing his red USA cap and his cool it bandanna.:D
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
one Good thing:Apollo got on couch yesterday and stood on his hind legs.
When he falls over on all fours I just say "It's okay Apollo" then he gets up. But so hard to see.

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

Shucks! I was working today and was up at the Childrens Pool for a bit. Wish I would have seen you and Apollo's red stroller!

I use the stainless steel bowls to put Snoop's distilled water in as they don't harbor bacteria. I just got lazy and didn't want to wash the food bowl four times a day so got the disposable paper bowls;). We have never been sick from the raw food either.

Snoop likes to chew ice cubes so I give her a frozen cube or two of the raw food. She munches away at it and I think it helps keep her back teeth clean!

One Good Thing Today...She is snooring away right now and her little feet are chasing something :p
Rene & Snoop

[apollo6]

Dear Addy and Rene
Thanks for just being there.
I have steel food bowl for Apollo already. But have one of those flowing fountain water dishes for Apollo. He has not had any problems with the raw food. But after reading about the recall on Nature's Variety not sure if I want to continue.

I did some research on Apollo's black spots and think this is what it might be.:

Alopecia X is a disorder on which so much as been said and written but for which little is really known or understood. This name was coined a few years ago to refer to the following disease(s): pseudo-Cushing, adult onset growth hormone deficiency, hyposomatotropism of the adult dog, growth hormone responsive alopecia, castration responsive dermatosis, gonadal sex hormone alopecia, sex hormone/growth hormone dermatosis, hypogonadism in intact males, biopsy responsive alopecia, post-clipping alopecia (of plush-coated breeds), adrenal sex hormone imbalance, adrenal hyperplasia syndrome, Lysodren responsive dermatosis, follicular dysplasia of Nordic breeds, Siberian husky follicular dysplasia, follicular growth dysfunction of the plush-coated breeds and black skin disease of Pomeranians. The diversity in names are merely descriptive and based upon the differences in endocrine evaluation results and/or clinical responses to various therapeutic modalities.

Apollo did not have these type of skin issues before. So I am wondering is the the increased sex hormones from the Trilostane?
Never Ends.
One good thing: Apollo barked and demanded his lunch, walked a little outside.Baby steps.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Well, so many of the darn foods have one recall or another. And that includes some of the "Top" foods.

Maybe just continue for now, see how he does and in the mean time, find an alternate. I think Glynda uses Primal. You could google that for recalls.

Stella and Chewy is a good brand, made here in Wisconsin. Ask Marie what she was feeding Maddie. Zoe's is a small company here in Wisconsin. It is not available in your neck of the woods. I'll go look for my Whole Dog Journal. They just reviewed raw diets.

Glad to hear about baby steps. :D:D:D:D
One good thing for Zoe -perfect poops today:) TWICE:D

Love you,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Yes, I still feed my dogs Primal. Funny you should mention recalls because Primal recently announced a "voluntarily" recall of their Feline Chicken and Salmon. See details here: http://www.primalpetfoods.com/company/recall

This recall hasn't changed my mind. I've talked to a number of employees at Primal and they are extremely forthcoming and helpful with any questions I've had. I used to have my food delivered by a gentlemen who did not do business with anybody who would not let him tour their operations. He said Primal passed with flying colors.

[addy]

See, great to hear about Primal and it is rated five stars, their recall did not scare Glynda away. I did not see any recalls on Renee's Steve's Real Food which was five stars too.;););)

So you have options if you decide somewhere down the line to change from Nature's Variety.

Sorry if I scared you. I always check for recalls after the melamine crisis. It all boils down to how much faith you have in the company and also what the ingredients are in each food. Some may have more fruit and veggies, some may have flax, some may have more fat, etc.

AND WILL HE EAT IT:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

Love ya,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Nature's Variety voluntary recall -

http://www.naturesvariety.com/news/32

[apollo6]

Dear Addy, Glynda and Squirt's Mom,
thank you all for your input. We are hear to help each other and pass out what we know. I will look at the sites you all gave me.

This site also lists recalls. I guess we just have to watch.
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-recalls/

Will check into Primal also. Apollo is doing good on the mini amount of raw that I am giving him. I mix in a little with his regular food. Fuzzy he is not.:p
Dear Addy You did not scare me. I appreciate any info you have, likewise for me.
Ya! Zoe a good pop.:D Are we bonkers or what.
I am so stressed out with our business going down hill, I become a space cadet.
One good thing. Apollo lifted one leg to go to the bathroom. Pretty sad when lifting a leg can make me happy.:eek:
He heated up to 103 temp today while on the bed behind my desk. I put cold compressed on his body and neck to cool him off. His temp did go down to 101. We have to watch them so carefully.

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

How is our little boy doing with his new diet? Just checking in to see what is happening at your house and to wish you a Happy Fourth of July.

Zoe goes for her 30 day stim July 6th. Not sure what that will mean but guess we will see.

Have a wonderful Fourth of July!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Thanks
Apollo is doing fine on the diet. But he has another black spot on his back. The skin infections are not getting better. He falls on all four legs now. Both front and back are weak. I have my appointment for tests on the 20th. Don't know if I can wait that long. I am very worried about my baby. Is the Trilostane making him worse on the muscle atrophy , and is his intermediate hormones being elevated more by the TRilostane to cause the leg and skin problems.

One good thing. Apollo went outside by himself to go to the bathroom. I gave him a treat. He used to go in the bushes, but because he can hardly walk he went on the patio. But at least he tried.
Sonja and Apollo
Will be taking drive inland on Saturday or Sunday. Staying quiet for the 4th. The beaches will be a mad house. I don't want to compete with 20 year olds on the beach. Not going there.:eek::D

[Bagel's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

Was readign about Apollo's weak legs and his red stroller...Bagel has a red stroller too and we are on out third year with it. I got it when she was heavier and a hip from an old back surgery was not working too well.

Last week her back legs got so wobbly and for a week she just wobbles a little in the yard and sits down.. or mostly lays on the cool floor in the condo.

I have carried her down the sidewalk to "bathroom territory" on some days. Haven't talked to the vet yet...Am hoping she will strengthen again...Any advice.?? it IS so hard to see and she seems a little depressed.

Thanks and happy strolling!
Sande and Bagel

[littleone1]

Hi Sonja,

I'm sorry to hear that Apollo's legs are getting worse. I really hope that there is something that can be done to help him improve.

[apollo6]

Dear Terry and Sande and Bagel
Thank you for your concern.
I wish I could tell you something positive. I am still trying to figure out is it the Trilostane that is making the muscle atrophy worse or is it the intermediate hormones. I started Apollo on physical therapy to help. But I think it is getting worse.
Dear Sande run it by your doctor. Also Rene's bagel, Snoopy had the same problems but she has added a few things to her diet to help with it.
Sonja and Apollo
p.s. It breaks my heart to see him fall over and it happens a lot. He now has problems with the front legs also. I have done a lot of crying lately. I am supposed to get next round of test on the 20th but I have left word with vet to do sooner and talk to him about what is going on with my baby.

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

If I remember correctly:confused::confused: Apollo's Trilostane holiday did not mean any improvement in his leg weakness. I have been wondering if it is possible that instead of more Trilostane, does he need his cortisol to run higher because he has existing arthritis and back problems, that perhaps his cortisol needs to be closer to post 7-9 ug/dl.

Otherwise you could have the test run that Glynda suggested to see if he really needs twice day dosing.

The last option is a wash out of at least six weeks to be safe and switch to lysodren. Perhaps he would just do better on it.

My thinking is if he had back problems before he had Cushings, perhaps that is what is getting worse. I know Zoe has an unknown cause to her colitis so by lowering her cortisol I can make it worse. If that is the case, I can eith er choose to allow her cortisol to run a bit higher if other symptoms are okay. IMS and I have pretty much decided to allow higher cortisol for her as long as her other symtoms are not giving her too much of a problem.

Sorry to ramble, just wondering about Apollo, is all.

Love ya,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
You are such a sweet heart. I am monitoring Apollo the best I can.
One good Thing: He went outside to the bathroom by himself.
I have a lot to think about go my little boy. I give him the raw paddies mixed in with his food. He is doing fine on it.
But know my little Karma had diarrhea today, and two days ago she was crying when she did a bowl movement. We gave her Gatorade and light cottage cheese. Will monitor and if not get better go to vet.
It just never ends.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Will post nutritional benefits of certain herbs for dogs.

[addy]

Hope Karma is feeling better today:D

Love,
Addy, Zoe and Koko

[Rene]

Sonja,


One good thing. Apollo lifted one leg to go to the bathroom. Pretty sad when lifting a leg can make me happy.:eek:


I guess you only have to worry if he does this!

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSx50M8fKUG3eBtkfmHcv-1WC4trd3KWbSvIdJA5qEXxxl7i5zWTA

Love Ya!!! :D

Sorry I have been MIA...got home early this AM for a longgg working 4th!
Rene & Snoop

[apollo6]

funny:D:D
I decided to see vet before the tests on July 20th and up them due to below.
from my notes.
July 5, 2011- governor animal clinic- discussed with Dr Feinberg; jaw trembling, face sore, sores on back, inflammation on right paw, falling down, front teeth loose, inflamed gums.
Explained when throw up. Said due to Cushing may have gum disease, and sores may be
1. ring worm,
2. demdox mites Demodex Demodectic mange, also called "demodicosis," is caused by a microscopic mite of the Demodex genus-that burrow in the hair follicles; especially of dogs, causing pustule formation and spreading bald patches .
A suppressed immune system, will allow the mites to "gain the upper hand."
Mites can multiply causing serious skin conditions, i.e.; scaly bald patches all over the body, and sores between the toes
3. deep follicutis (infection of deep hair follicles, secondary to hormone skin disease or demodex.)
Due to weaken immune system Cushing dogs can get gum disease-Apollo has a few loose teeth in front bottom with inflamed gums
Didn't say anything about his legs giving out? Or the jaw trembling.
Tests:
A. COMPREHENSIVE BLOOD PROFILE
B. URINALYSIS(CYSTO)-IH
C. Urine culture-IH
D. CYTOLOGY
E. SKIN SCRAPING (to test for bacterial deep skin infections not healing on own)
F. Fungal culture-IH
G. Convenia injection-antibiotic to help Apollo fight the gum and skin infections.
Dr. says due to Cushing immune system is weakened and cannot fight infections on own.
Tomorrow I go for ACHT STIM AND INTERMEDIATE HORMONE TEST TO TENNESSE.
Cushing is like battling fires everywhere with only one hose.

also could be Skin disorder may be Alopecia X“Black skin disease” is not actually a disease, but rather is a phrase used to refer to a form of hormonally-influenced, non-inflammatory, progressive, symmetrical hair loss and skin hyper pigmentation in dogs.

As you can see I am very overwhelmed.
I am sorry I have not posted welcomes to the new comers.
Will post results when get.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

If Apollo has demodex due to a compromised immune system, then his other problems are probably cortisol related as well. A cushdog that is well controlled should not be getting demodex mange. I have suspected for a while that Apollo's cortisol is not being well controlled throughout the day. Did Dr. Feinberg discuss this possibility with you? If it were me, I would not incur the cost of a UTK adrenal panel before doing the appropriate testing to determine if Apollo needs to be on twice daily dosing. Basically, if you do a UTK panel and cortisol is within range and some intermediates are elevated, you're still not going to know if it's the intermediates or increased cortisol later in the day that is causing the problem. Based on my own experience with Lulu, I believe cortisol is the problem, not elevated intermediates. That's just my two cents.

Glynda

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

I have to agree with both Addy and Glynda. Here is my two cents worth.

Because both Snoops cortisol and hormones were so elevated I asked Dr. Oliver (Godspeed) which was worse. He said both. But, he said, if you get the cortisol under control usually all the hormones will follow.

That day at the dog park I watched Apollo. Although our boy's body is failing him and he can barely walk he shuffled right along! He did not look or move "arthritic" nor did he appear to be in any back pain when he was being the little Casanova! :D My uneducated impression was that his little body was in a catabolic wasting state. Getting the cortisol and hormones back in check will help with wasting syndrome. I learned about catabolic muscle wasting when I was running and also when my husband was ill.

Maybe you should go with Glynda's suggestion and try to control our boy's cortisol more consistently throughout a 24 hour period with the double dose giving it a chance to lower the hormones and see if he improves. Without the cortisol "yo-yo" effect going on maybe it will be just that simple to fix his hormones. If his symptoms do not improve after his cortisol is being controled throughout the 24 hour period then we can suspect that his hormones are still elevated. I agree with Glynda and wouldn't keep doing a UTK panel as we can assume if he is symptomatic then his hormones are still elevated. Maybe then we can suspect the trilo is adding to the hormonal elevations.

Then you can try Addy's suggestion of washing the Trilo out for the six weeks and switching to Lysodren. I know you don't want to...but he is not getting better :(

With Much Love,
Rene

[apollo6]

Dear Glynda and Rene
Thank you for your input. He has already been given all these tests.
I am so confused about was it the right thing to do about giving Apollo the Convena antibiotic injection. Who do I trust.
Today is the ACHT STIM. Will keep you posted. It has been almost three months since his last test. I was the one wanting the full blood panel and hormone test. I know he will need to up his Trilostane.
He is on 10mg. and the jaw trembling is starting all over again. So I know it is the Trilostane. Last time we upped him to 12.5 mg. he threw up. as the disease progresses do they need the medications to be upped because their body needs more control of the cortisone or does their body become immune to the lower dosage. It seems this time around the black bare spots are a new thing. So to up would I go with maybe 10mg. then 5mg in the evening. Or would 10mg. then 10mg. evening be to much of an increase for Apollo. My little boy is pretty sensitive.
On the brighter side some hairs are popping up on his tail. But this time around he has more caliculus cotis? to lazy to look up spelling.
Sonja and Apollo
I think this maybe what is happening to Apollo's skin. It happens mostly in dachshunds but I think his is secondary due to cushings

Secondary acanthosis nigricans
The secondary form of the disease is much more common. The darkening of the skin occurs because of one of three underlying conditions. 1) Friction caused by obesity or conformational abnormalities. 2) Endocrine imbalances including hyperthyroidism, Cushing is disease, or sex hormone imbalances. 3) Hypersensitivities due to food, inhalant (atopy), or contact allergies.
In addition to blackening of the skin, secondary acanthosis nigricans is often associated with chronic hair loss and/or itching and other skin problems. If an owner sees these skin conditions developing, she should have the dog examined by a veterinarian and the underlying cause of the condition should be identified.
The treatment for secondary acanthosis nigricans usually consists of treating the underlying condition, e.g., through weight loss, thyroid medication or allergy relief. In more severe cases, steroid therapy at low doses has helped to reduce inflammation in the skin. In addition, Vitamin E supplementation has shown to help in the recovery of some cases, but offers a relatively-nontoxic aid to therapy. The majority of time the condition will improve once the underlying condition has been identified and properly treated.

Skin scrapings should be performed to rule out demodicosis, especially in young dogs. Impression smears are useful to identify bacterial and Malassezia infections. Depending on the nondermatologic signs, endocrine function tests for thyroid and adrenal disease may be useful; endocrine skin diseases are not pruritic unless accompanied by secondary skin infections. Intradermal skin testing, a food trial, or both may be necessary. Skin biopsies are usually nondiagnostic but may be helpful in some cases to identify secondary bacterial infections not previously recognized. The presence of such infections is common but often overlooked. In most cases, it is useful to treat the secondary bacterial and/or Malassezia infections before proceeding with other diagnostic tests.


the vet did the skin scraping to see if it is bacterial. I think I will add the Vitamin e to help as it says.

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

Did your vet see mites under a microscope and formally diagnose Apollo with demodex mange? If so, he should be on Ivermectin and probably clavamox. Were these prescribed?

You said the acth stimulation test is today. Did Apollo get his morning dose of trilostane and are you making sure that the stim test is going to be done within 4 to 6 hours after the dose? I wish I had an answer as to why your boy threw up after increasing the dose by only 2.5 mg. :confused: Are you giving Apollo his dose of trilostane directly after he eats or with his food? I personally think it is premature to discuss dosing changes until the results of the stim test are in. I'll be staying tuned for your updates.

Glynda

[addy]

Sonja, I don't have any answers. If it were me, I would wait to see what the skin scraping results are. I have read sometimes dogs on Trilostane end up needing less of it so I guess it could go either way.

I do know that the pepcid should be given about 30 minutes prior to his breakfast and his Trilostane. I just popped it in Zoe's mouth and she swallowed it. I'm lucky, she has no issues taking pills. I pretend it is food and tell her "oh chicken, take it". My IMS said Zoe could have it twice a day if she needed it. I would have to look to see if the dose changes if Pepcid is given BID. I have my notes somewhere.

Waiting with you for your test results and sending love and hugs and support.

Love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy thanks for the input.
Will post results tomorrow. Real tired so just posting from my notes.
July 6th-acht stim and intermediate hormone test
1. SKIN SCRAPING SHOWS BACTERIAL INFECTION
2. WAITING ON CYTOLOY/FUNGAL CULTURE RESULTS
3. URINALYSIS –NORMAL?
4. WAITING FOR URINALYSIS CULTURE
NOTE ALT HIGH
GGT HIGH
BUN HIGH
BUN CREATININE HIGH
TRIGLYCERIDE HIGH
THYROID T3 NORMAL
T4 LOW
FREE T4 LOW
( WAS LOW BEFORE ON TRILOSTANE, NORMAL ON TRILOSTANE, DOES THIS MEAN NEEDS MORE TRILOSTANE, DON’T THINK THYROIDISM, BUT SKIN INFECTIONS AND WEAK LEGS ARE SYMPTONS)
WAITING FOR INTERMEDIATE HORMONE AND ACHT STIM TEST RESULTS.
My little boy is sleeping now.
Tomorrow acupuncture for him and physical therapy. I have spent over $600.00 in test alone.
One good thing.: Apollo jumped from the garage into the house(one step):)
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
will post on other posts tomorrow.

[Rene]

Get some rest sweetie!

Post the numbers when you get a break tomorrow and we will get a look at them.

Big hugs and belly rubs all the way around.

Rene & Snoop

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

Found this paper, thought you would like to read it if you have not done so already.

http://wvc.omnibooksonline.com/data/papers/2011_SA107.pdf

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Addy
thank you both.
Will read the article Addy-thank you.
Rene will try to call and realize tomorrow working on a lot of stuff with hubby.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Will post labs later.

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

Please see my notes below in blue:


Dear Addy thanks for the input.
Will post results tomorrow. Real tired so just posting from my notes.
July 6th-acht stim and intermediate hormone test
1. SKIN SCRAPING SHOWS BACTERIAL INFECTION

So there is no demodex or calcinosis cutis?

2. WAITING ON CYTOLOY/FUNGAL CULTURE RESULTS
3. URINALYSIS –NORMAL?
4. WAITING FOR URINALYSIS CULTURE
NOTE ALT HIGH
GGT HIGH

Are you sure the ALT is high? It's usually the ALKP that is high in a cushdog and GGT is usually elevated in relation to the ALKP, not the ALT. Can you please post the actual results, including the normal reference ranges?

BUN HIGH
BUN CREATININE HIGH

It is not uncommon for a cushdog to have a high BUN and if the BUN is high, then the BUN Creatinine Ratio will be high. With creatinine being normal, I would think these abnormalities are secondary to cushing's.TRIGLYCERIDE HIGH

THYROID T3 NORMAL
T4 LOW
FREE T4 LOW
( WAS LOW BEFORE ON TRILOSTANE, NORMAL ON TRILOSTANE, DOES THIS MEAN NEEDS MORE TRILOSTANE, DON’T THINK THYROIDISM, BUT SKIN INFECTIONS AND WEAK LEGS ARE SYMPTONS)

High cortisol can lower both T4 and Free T4 so the results of the stim test is important in determining if these thryoid values are low because of high cortisol or if Apollo may be truly hypothyroid.

WAITING FOR INTERMEDIATE HORMONE AND ACHT STIM TEST RESULTS.

It seems that the usual symptoms we see in cushing's are not really a problem with Apollo. I've been thinking about the two symptoms which really can't be explained, the jaw tremors and the leg weakness. I just went back and scanned your thread (and boy that was not easy) and I ran across something really huge that I had missed before. You said that Apollos front feet were turning under. This is called knuckling and this is absolutely not a sign of muscle weakness caused by high cortisol. Knuckling and shivering are symptoms of Canine Intervertebral Disc Disease and Dachshunds seem to be at the top of the list of breeds predisposed to this condition. It's basically a bulging disc and symptoms can come and go as the disc bulges in and out. What I find interesting, and this is total speculation on my part, is that these two symptoms seemed to reappear or worsen as Apollo's cortisol dropped on Trilostane. That would make sense because dogs with this condition are usually put on prednisone, the synthetic equivalent of cortisol. Could it be that when Apollo's cortisol was high, he was self medicating himself? Have you had Apollo seen by an orthopedic specialist and have you had an MRI done? Honestly, I was blown away when I read that Apollo was knuckling and in my opinion, this isn't related to cushing's.

My little boy is sleeping now.
Tomorrow acupuncture for him and physical therapy. I have spent over $600.00 in test alone.
One good thing.: Apollo jumped from the garage into the house(one step):)
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
will post on other posts tomorrow.

[addy]

The article talks about twice a day dosing at 1mg per kg verses 2mgs per kg. 1 x day. So an option for me if I need it would be raise Zoe to 15mgs sid or do 7-8 mgs BID. I have been reading that BID at a lower dose may help minimize side effects. That the total BID dose would be less per dose than the SID.

I thought this might be an option for you.

Love,
Addy

[ktzndgs]

I'm a little hesitant to jump in here because I don't have time to read all that's gone on with Apollo so I don't know everything you've done but the little I've read sounds like what I was going through with Macy. What sort of Cushing's has he been diagnosed with? PDH? Have you had an brain mri done so you can actually see the tumor? You might want to consider doing that. The weakness in all four legs, throwing up after having meds and the fact that you asked if the trilostane might be making him sick (throwing up or another way?) makes me wonder if the tumor is growing.

When Macy started throwing up after the trilostane dose they stopped it immediately.

Dr. Oliver told me trilostane is best taken twice a day. Half in the morning, half at night.

Kathy

[addy]

Glynda raises good points which brings me back to my question of last week, I think, and that if Apollo had back problems or arthritis previously, would it be better to allow his cortisol to run a bit higher? I have read some dogs on Trilostane do better when then cortisol is 7-9ug/dl.

In my opinion:three options you can try depending on the results of his stim:

1. Allow his cortisol to runner higher
2. Do the 1mg per kg BID dose
3. Wash out and switch to Lysodren


I know your stressed. You know him best. Maybe you could check your notes from when you saw the neurologist. I thought Apollo had disc problems in his back, but I could be remembering wrong.

Love and hugs and mucho support sweetie,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

Nothing to add but wanted you to know I am watching with love and always hoping for the best.

You are a great mom, honey, and Apollo is such a lucky little guy.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Rene]

Helllooo!

I forgot to tell you...the Organic Chicken raw for the 6lbs in the Nature Variety was $41.99!!! No wonder why it is a special order item...ouch!!!

Anyways...about the knuckling...I saw it only once. It looks tight and locked...at least in the case I saw as it was described. If Apollo is "pushing from rear" because that is where his power is now, his front paws (because of atrophy) may be simply rolling over and that is why he is falling. Something to consider. I don't know which it is...just did not want you to panic :eek:

HUGS....
Rene & Sleeping Beauty

[apollo6]

DEAR Kathy, Addy, Rene, Glynda, and Leslie,
I will post tomorrow and answer some of your questions. I am so tired I hit the wrong key and deleted the post I just typed.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Take a break from it, dear friend. Relax and enjoy your weekend.

Love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Sorry haven't posted lately. Just feel exhausted and overwhelmed. Will try to post tomorrow part of results and get input from you all about Apollo.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

Been thinking about all of you and sending well wishing to you and your family.

Cuddle up with our boy :) and spend some moments.
Rene & snoop

[addy]

Thinking of you and sending hugs.

Some times, walking away from it all for awhile helps clear the head.

Love you and sending belly rubs for little Apollo.

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Addy
Thank you for your kind words.
I am going to post Apollo's reading with some notes will add my notes from vet, Rene to get input from the forum. Two heads are better then one. In my case I am still trying to find my head.:eek:
On the lighter side:
Went to dachie meet up on Sunday. Apollo wanted to hump everything in site. Thought maybe his hormones going up. Then I see a three way.:eek: One dachie is trying to hump another than a third one comes along and tries to hump the second one. Are all dachie's this horny.:eek::D
this will be long;
URINALYSIS
COLOR PALE not notated did needle old YELLOW
URINE APPEARANCE dilute was CLEAR
SPECIFIC GRAVITY 1.019 was 1.018(PRIOR 1.015) RANGE 1.008-1.060
ph 6.5 was 6.0 range 5.0-7.0
urine protein - trace was Neg
all readings-neg
urine blood .2 normal was 2+( used needle to get urine?) last time was 1+
WBC, RBC, CRYS. BACT. CASTS, ALL NO OR NORMAL CAN’T READ VETS NOTES
URINE CULTURE- NO TRACE OF URINARY TRACT INFECTION (I COULD HAVE TOLD THEM SO)

TEETH- 1-2 WITH TARTAR AND GINGEIVITS? LOOSE TEETH AROUND LOWER INCISORS.
SKIN CYTOLOGY-2+COCCI: NO YEAST INFECTIONS
SKIN SCRAPING-NEGATIVE-BACTERIAL
FUNGAL CULTURE –WAITING TO SEE IF HAS RING WORM (DON’T THINK SO)
WAITING FOR TENNEESE ACHT STIM AND INTERMEDIATE HORMONE RESULTS.

Chemistry panel
sodium 147 WAS 149 (previous 148) range 139-152

Potassium 5.3 WAS 5.1 (previous 4.8) range 3.6-5.6

Chloride 106 WAS 112(previous111) range 102-120

NA/K RATIO28 WAS 29.2(WAS 30.8) RANGE 27.0-38.0

GLUCOSE 109 WAS 107(WAS 83) RANGE 70-138 CAN BE ELEVATED DUE TO CUSHING

BUN (KIDNEY) 34 WAS 28(WAS 32) RANGE 6-31-HIGH

CREATININE .6 WAS .5L (WAS .7) RANGE .5-1.6

BUN/CREA RATION (KIDNEY) 57 WAS 56.0 H (WAS 45.7) RANGE 4-27 ELEVATED (KIDNEY)

CALCIUM 10.8 WAS 10.1 (WAS 10.5) RANGE 8.9-11.4

ALBUMIN 3.6 WAS 3.4 (was 3.3) range 2.7-4.4

globulin 3.0 WAS 2.6 (was 3.2) range 2.5-4.5
liver enzymes going up
a/g ratio 1.2 WAS 1.31H( was 1.07) range .6-1.3
NOT DONE WAS CK 506H( WAS 270) RANGE 54-380( MUSCLE DISORDER WORSE)
AST(SGOT) 27 WAS 67H( WAS 50) RANGE 6-62
ALK PHOSPHATASE 129 WAS 577H( WAS 137) 9-140
(MOST COMMON CAUSE ARE LIVER DISEASE, BONE DISEASE OR BLOOD CORTISOL CUSHING DISEASE-)
ALT (SGPT) 160 WAS 328H (WAS 210) RANGE 15-84 STILL HIGH BUT GOING DOWN
GGT 17 WAS 39H (WAS .4) RANGE 1-12

TOTAL B ILIRUBIN .1 WAS .4(WAS .4) RANGE .1-.6

CHOLESTEROL 207 WAS 194(WAS 178) RANGE 92-324
CAN BE CAUSED BY CUSHING DISEASE, DIABETES AND KIDNEY DISEASE

MAGNESIUM 2.2 WAS2.4 (WAS 2.2) RANGE 1.5 -2.5
Triglyceride 453 High (WAS 252) RANGE 29-291
Amylase 365- range 290-1125
Lipase 243 range 77-695
CPK 251 RANGE 59-895


CBC
WBC 6.5 RANGE 4-15.5
RBC 7.5 RANGE 4.8-9.3
HGB 17.6 RANGE 12.1-20.3
HCT 55 RANGE 36-60
MCV 72 RANGE 58-79
MCH 23.4 RANGE 19-28
MCHC 32 RANGE 3038
PLATELET COUNT 383 RANGE 180-400
PLATELET EST ADEQUATE
DIFFEERENTIAL ABSOLUTE
NEUTRIPHILIS 4615 71% RANGE 2060-10600
LYMPHOCYTES 1170 18% range 690-4500
Monocytes 585 9% range 0-840
Esinophils 130 2% range 0-1200
Basophiles 0 0% range 0-150
T4 .7(low) was 1.63 RANGE .8-3.8
FREE T 4 .35(low) was 1.45 RANGE .55-2.32
T3 46 was 55. RANGE 30-77
FREE T3 did not do, was? 2.5 RANGE 1.6-3.5
Total T4 result is less than 1.0 mcg/dl A free-t4 by equilibrium dialysis may be helpful to support diagnosis of hypothyroidism (when Apollo restarted his thyroid figures were low then when started thyroid readings were within norm, so I theorized that Apollo needs to increase the Trilostane to as Glynda said twice a day dosage, vet is waiting for ACHT STIM and keeps wanting me to put Apollo on thyroid medicine believing the skin and leg issues have to do with his thyroid? Yet when I read about the medicine it says to be very cautious with older dogs , Addison disease and debilitated dogs (well I would say Cushing is debilating )
THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODIES
3 NEGATIVE
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

I just looked at Apollo's bloodwork and it looks really, really good. Congratulations! However, I was taken off guard by the low thryoid values. How did we get through 81 pages in your thread and not rule out hypothyroidism as a cause the symptoms that remain unresolved? OY! The thyroid (T4 and Free T4) are most definitely low and I think your vet is probably right to recommend thyroid meds. Hypothyroidism is about the most common canine condition there is so I'm pretty sure your vet is knowledgable. I never really thought about low thyroid but now that I see those numbers, it is definitely possible that the skin issues and the muscle wasting can be due to low thyroid. Still not sure about the knuckling though.

Hypothyroidism is usually diagnosed in middle aged to older dogs so giving thyroid meds to an older dog is norm. I have never seen a warning on Thyroxine stating that it is not recommended for older dogs. About the only side effect you would have with thyroid meds is if the dose was too high and then it would throw the dog into hyperthyroidism. When that happens, you'll know it because dogs with hyperthyroidism have pu/pd. Thyroxin could make a huge difference for Apollo so you may want to discuss treating the thyroid.

Cushing's can cause a transient decrease in thyroid values but with the improvements on the bloodwork, I would think the thyroid values would be higher than they are. I think it is very possible that Apollo has primary hypothyroidism. The numbers are there and he is a breed known to be predisposed to the condition. Lulu was diagnosed hypothyroid at one year old and has been on the same mg thyroxin for almost 8 years. Compared to cushing's meds, thyroid meds are pretty benign.

[Rene]

You gotta love Glynda!

I have a question? What could cause such a drop since Apollo's last tests?

T4 .7(low) was 1.63 RANGE .8-3.8
FREE T4 .35(low) was 1.45 RANGE .55-2.32
T3 46 was 55. RANGE 30-77

[labblab]

You gotta love Glynda!

I have a question? What could cause such a drop since Apollo's last tests?

T4 .7(low) was 1.63 RANGE .8-3.8
FREE T4 .35(low) was 1.45 RANGE .55-2.32
T3 46 was 55. RANGE 30-77
Rene, I think that is a good question. If it were me, I'd probably ask to have a complete thyroid panel performed that includes free T4 by equilibrium dialysis and also the TSH level. I definitely agree with Glynda that thyroid supplementation is typically easy and benign. And you'd probably have nothing to lose by giving it a trial with Apollo. But if his thyroid level was previously normal, that would not explain his ongoing symptoms. I'm thinking these low results may be secondary to another issue or condition.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

I, too, was shocked at his thyroid values. :eek: Hypothyroidism would explain much of what you are seeing with Apollo but it also seems odd to me that it dropped so suddenly. Do you have his thyroid tests going back a bit? That might establish a pattern.

The first attempt I made at home cooking for Squirt was a disaster. The diet included quite a bit of cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage and kale. After being on this diet for a short time, she tested as hypothyroid. But getting her off that diet and all those cruciferous veggies put her levels right back to normal. So, from experience I know external factors can affect the thyroid. Have you changed anything in his diet lately?

Otherwise, his blood work looks pretty good to me but hopefully Debbie will be along to give us an expert reading. ;)

Hang in there!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

PS. I also agree with Glynda in that the meds for hypothyroidism are quite benign and easy on them. ;)

[lulusmom]

I'll try to post more later but wanted to quickly say that according to what I've read and the way Dr. Dodd calculates T4 and Free T4 values, Apollo's thyroid values would have been interpreted as being low previously and it isn't that uncommon for those values to continue to drop in the course of a few months, especially if a dog has primary hypothyroidism. Will try to get ya'll some reading material on this later.

[apollo6]

Dear Glynda, Leslie and Marianne
First I want to thank you for all the work and input you put in this forum. I am amazed how you can do all this. Thank you my angels.
Thank you Addy and Rene.
The thyroid issue is baffling because we did the full Thyroid panel in April which I think I wrote beside the figures I posted. Off trilostane his thyroid number were low, then when he was put on Trilostane again his number were normal. Now his numbers are low? So is it that he need more Trilostane or is it hyperthyroidism. Will look back at his previous readings. Think he may have been low, will let you know.
What is baffling is in the last two months the black spots with black dots(plugged hair follicles oozing out grey greasy substance, then sometimes the actual hair will come out.) and the knuckling in the front paws(bending the paw backward) not being able to get up without difficulty and the stiffness in the back legs. He also tires out so easily-out of breath, and he overheats easily. But he still has spirit barks if he needs help or is hungry.
Leslie I did change is diet barely a month ago to add in Nature's Variety raw frozen Chicken. I mix in 1 pellet with the Embark. His stomach gurgling has gotten better. But I am concerned about the jaw trembling which started when he restarted the Trilostane.
As Rene had said is his body eating up his muscles? He has a good appetite.
Will post later.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hoping and praying things become clearer for you soon. You are such a good Mom dearest friend.

Love,
Addy

[ktzndgs]

It might help to find a neurologist. The folks here suggested I find one and I managed to get an appointment with Dr. Jay McDonnell. It turned out to be very helpful. Especially since you're seeing knuckling under of the front feet.

Kathy

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

Can you remind us exactly what symptoms Apollo has? Here is a long list of things you might see in a dog with hypothyroidism. This list was compiled by Dr. Jean Dodds and is pretty comprehensive. I was unaware of some of these symptoms and I was surprised to see knuckling on the list. :eek:

Alterations in Cellular Metabolism

lethargy mental dullness
exercise intolerance neurologic signs like
polyneuropathy
seizures
weight gain cold intolerance
mood swings hyperexcitability
stunted growth chronic infections

Neuromuscular Problems (like loss of smooth muscle tone)

weakness (esp. hind end) stiffness
knuckling/dragging feet laryngeal paralysis (bark changes)
incontinence facial paralysis (droopy)
head tilt "tragic" expression (looks old/sad
drooping eyelids muscle wasting (temporal, withers)
ruptured cruciate ligament megaesophagus (reflux gastritis)

Dermatological Diseases

dry/scaly skin and dandruff coarse, dull coat
hyperpigmentation "rat tail" "puppy coat"
chronic offensive skin odor pyoderma or skin infections
myxedema
bilaterally symmetrical seborrhea with greasy skin
hair loss (or dry skin)
demodetic mange

Reproductive Disorders

infertility prolonged interestrus interval
lack of libido absence of heat cycles
testicular atrophy silent heats
hypospermia (low sperm) aspermia (no sperm)
pseudopregnancy weak, dying or stillborn pups


Cardiac abnormalities

slow heart rate (bradycardia) cardiomyopathy (esp. in
cardiac arrhythmias (Greyhounds, Dobies and Salukis)

Gastrointestinal Disorders

constipation diarrhea
vomiting

Hematological Disorders

bleeding
bone marrow failure, which can lead to low white blood cells, low
red blood cells, low platelets
Ocular Diseases

corneal lipid deposits corneal ulceration
uveitis keratoconjunctivitis sicca (dry eye)
infections of the eyelid glands
Meibomian gland, Vogt-Koyanagi-Harada Syndrome

Other associated diseases

IgA deficiency loss of smell (dysosomia)
loss of taste

[apollo6]

Dear Kate, thanks may do so.
Dear Glynda
Pretty tired will post Apollo's symptoms:
black spots with black dots(hair follicles when squeeze grey greasy discharge then hair comes out sometimes)some hair is starting to come thru.
Vet said the muscle wasting and skin infections might be caused by the thyroid. But what about the jaw trembling and loose teeth in lower front?

good bowel movement
no diarrhea
no vomiting
jaw trembling
stomach gurgling seems to be less.
don't know if can say gaining weight?
heat intolerance-overheats very easily
lower teeth a little loose with gum separating
knuckling in front paws
stiffness in hind legs
hair is growing back on tail-bumps disappearing
still very alert
muscle wasting in head somewhat
tries to walk on own.
falls down to side sometimes but does get up on own
listens to my commands
If I can think of something else will post.
You are such a wonderful person Glynda.
Will check in tomorrow.
Rest my dear Glynda
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[apollo6]

Some good with the bad.
Today Apollo had a spa day. He rested in his little cream plush bed, with a little fan directed at his face, listening to a music box(he just loves them) and then to Enya, while Mommy massaged his little bellow.:p
Mommy did not have a spa day. Apollo throw up in the bed, yellow bile, had to wash everything-went all the way through. Did ironing, got caught up with things. Apollo didn't even give me a tip.:eek: :mad:

Apollo now has more problems with not only his back legs, but the front legs also, knuckle bends back paws. The jaw trembling continues. I hope he doesn't have "rubber jaw" as Rene mentioned. The sore on his face is not healing very well, very slow. Waiting to see what ACHT STIM AND INTERMEDIATE HORMONES RESULTS. I want to find out why Apollo's legs are not working. :(
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[MBK]

Hi, Sonja.

Sorry to read that Apollo is having a hard time with his legs. I so hope it turns out to be hypothyroidism and the medication will improve EVERYTHING. Apollo is a very lucky little dog to have someone that takes such good care of him! You deserve a spa day yourself! Keeping you both in my thoughts. Hang in there.

[addy]

May we come over for a spa day?;);)

I never get a tip either except for lots of licks, which, when I think about it, that is a pretty good tip as long as hubby does not start licking my face:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I hope you find the answers to Apollo's leg weakness. Maybe when you get the UTK panel results, you will have a clearer picture of your next move.

Love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Lets all have a spa day. sit in a row and have our dogs like us.:eek:
Or some really good lucking spa personnel.:D
Apollo's legs seem to be getting worse. I am so scared.
Will post results when get.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

It just seems it taking soo long to get the UT results...Hope more answers come your way.

Hug the little guy four us.
Rene & Snoop

[addy]

Sending love and support. Those UTK tests can take a while. If you wait for longer than 10 days, call your vet and just check on it. Mine always took 2 weeks:eek::eek:

Hugs and love,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

Did your IMS mention what his/her course of action will be if any of the intermediates are elevated? Switch to Lysodren or add melatonin and lignans to Apollo's treatment? I predict one or more of the intermediates will be elevated but trying to determine if the they are are the cause of Apollo's problems isn't going to be easy. In my opinion,the most likely suspects should be ruled out first, those being, neurological, hypothyroidism and/or the need for twice daily dosing. I probably sound like a broken record but based on my own experience, as well as documented studies, I don't believe elevated intermediates as a result of Trilostane will cause a dog to relapse. I've mentioned several times that Lulu's intermediates were off the charts after being on Trilostane for two years; however, it was clear that the intermediates were not causing her problems. It was not until her cortisol climbed back up to 25 ug/dl that symptoms returned.

I sincerely hope your IMS and/or gp can get to the bottom of Apollo's problems and I also sincerely hope they are looking passed the possibility that elevated intermediates are the root of the problem.

Glynda

[addy]

I think Apollo is already on melatonin and lignans. Sonja started that not too long ago. I remember wondering if that is why his hair is growing back on his tail. We know melatonin can grow hair.

Hugs,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Thanks, Addy.

P.S. Sonja, I forgot to comment on Apollo's teeth. My IMS told me that dogs with cushing's usually experience more dental problems than a normal dog. However, dogs are like people in that a lot of dogs will lose their teeth as they age. Apollo's loose teeth could simply be part of aging.

[apollo6]

Dear Rene, Addy and Glynda
Thank you for checking in on me. Addy is right Apollo is already on LIgnans and melatonin.

Did your IMS mention what his/her course of action will be if any of the intermediates are elevated? Switch to Lysodren or add melatonin and lignans to Apollo's treatment? I predict one or more of the intermediates will be elevated but trying to determine if the they are are the cause of Apollo's problems isn't going to be easy. In my opinion,the most likely suspects should be ruled out first, those being, neurological, hypothyroidism and/or the need for twice daily dosing. I probably sound like a broken record but based on my own experience, as well as documented studies, I don't believe elevated intermediates as a result of Trilostane will cause a dog to relapse. I've mentioned several times that Lulu's intermediates were off the charts after being on Trilostane for two years; however, it was clear that the intermediates were not causing her problems. It was not until her cortisol climbed back up to 25 ug/dl that symptoms returned.

I sincerely hope your IMS and/or gp can get to the bottom of Apollo's problems and I also sincerely hope they are looking passed the possibility that elevated intermediates are the root of the problem.
Glynda you are right on the button. The thing about the thyroid is the reading was normal after he went on Trilostane, so I am baffled about the off reading. Also I can't invest another $2000.00 for the neurological test, but if I have to, I will. I would like to maybe try the twice daily dosing before taking thyroid supplements. His legs have gotten worse, as I said the front paw knuckling now. But he does still try to walk, still has a difficult time getting up. He still has a beautiful spirit and attitude.
On the positive , he went outside to bop( I was so excited-the crazy lady) :D:eek:His bowl movements are good. Still stomach gurgling.
One test came back, waiting for other to go over with me.
Will keep you posted. Nervous because waiting to decide on next plan of action on medication and have 9 days of pills left.
Sunday Mom came over for awhile. I should have made a picture. She was lying on the floor cuddling Apollo because she said he didn't want to lay on the couch. I had to hold back the tears.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

We are here with you dearest friend. Your mom is sure a sweetheart. I would have cried too.

You know Apollo best. Have you seen any benefit from the melatonin and lignans? Does the melatonin make him tired at all?

Love you,
Addy

[apollo6]

No he doesn't get tired. But with cushings, how do you know? His energy level is not what it was and he gets winded very easily.
Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

Sounds like you are getting good advise here. Do whatever you can to get the cortisol down and regulated 24hours a day. Whatever will do that best. Twice a day dosing or switching to Lysodren. Both you and the little guy need a break from the roller coaster :eek: Once you can get to that goal hopefully everything else will fall into place.

Hang in there...Love...Rene & Snoopie.

[MBK]

Sonja -

I've said it before, but I'll say it again....you are so lucky to have such a wonderful supportive mother. But, I am sure you already know that! I am so sorry to here apollo is still having a rough time. Alivia, Maxwell and me send hugs for you both!

[apollo6]

Dear Rene, and Maria
Thank you for your support. I am still waiting for the last two tests.
Will be out of Trilostane by 25th. I will hopefully have the results tomorrow.
One Good thing. I went to the park and Apollo did try to walk a few steps. He is such a trooper. I try to praise him for every step he takes.
Under a lot of stress with our business failing.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[apollo6]

Still waiting for results on ACHT STIM and intermediate hormones.
Ready for this, makes me wonder what plant vets and IMS are on.
Paid for urine culture-no urinary tract infection(like I already knew)
skin scraping- negative only bacteria( like I already knew)
skin culture- no dermandis( forgot the spelling) mites, no ring worm, no fungus( are they barking up the wrong tree!) It's the weakened immune system from cushing-I feel. And I feel the thyroid issue may be that the cortisol is going up again.
Have a nice weekend. Try to stay cool.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Maybe you should call and double check on the UTK panel. When that one UTK panel of Zoe's took forever, it turned out they had sent it to the wrong place:eek::eek:

How is our little boy today? Zoe sends love and kisses to him. I'll have to get Koko interested in Karma:D

Hugs and love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
You are so cute. Are we becoming matchmakers. Should I send Koko a photo of Karma for match.com?:D
I just got the results today. More baffled then ever. Why is Apollo loosing the strength in all legs? The hormone reading are slowly going down, put one reading not. I am not ready to switch to Lysodren. So here I am. Do we increase the dosage to twice daily and wait a little more? Why was his thyroid reading low?
4/30/11old reading
July 20, 2011 new
CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 23.5 (was 45.7) NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 61.4 (was 71.5) NORMAL 70.6-151.2

ANDROSTENEDIONE NG/ML BASELINE 3.03 (WAS 4.08) NORMAL .05-.36
POST 3.92 (WAS 6.78) NORMAL .24-2.90

ESTRADIOL PG/ML BASELINE 63.4 (WAS 69.9) NORMAL 23.1-65.1
POST 73.9 NORMAL 23.3-69.4

PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.21 (WAS 1.45) NORMAL .03-0.17
POST 3.19 (WAS 3.13) NORMAL .22-1.45

17OH PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.82 ( WAS 5.68) NORMAL .08-.22
POST 5.95 (WAS 16.8) NORMAL .25-2.63

ALDOSTERONE PG/ML baseline <11.0 ( WAS 39.5) NORMAL 11-139.9
POST 96.3 (WAS 66.9) NORMAL 72.9-398.5
RESULTS INDICATE PRESENCE OF INCREASED ADRENAL ACTIVITY(MODERATE)
SEX STEROID PATHWAY IS AFFECTED. SOME VETS CONSIDER ITEMS 2-4 COMBINED(OR #5 COMBINED(LYSDODREN), IF NOT EFFECTIVE) ALREADY TAKING MELATONIN AND LIGNANS-(MAYBE UP THE DOSAGE SINCE HORMONES COUNT IS GOING DOWN BUT ALDOSTERONE POST IS UP?
ONe good thing: I have my ice cafe with whipcream on the weekend with my breakfast, and I usually let Apollo have a littel whipcream. I tried to just give him applesauce. No way would he touch it unless I gave him some whipcream with it. I put a little on his nose. I was laughing so hard watching him trying to figure out how to get the whipcream off his nose. And this morning he tried to bark away a larger dog. The other dog is 3 years old and was afraid of Apollo. I mean a dog who can hardly walk is no threat. But Apollo doesn't think so. He has an attitude and it makes me happy. Dispite his struggles he is still the king of his house.:D

Would appreciate some feed back.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
p.s. Apollo and I are listening to and dancing to the big band era, Lady Goga, Michael Jackson-Crazy old lady.:eek:

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

I found this study on Trilostane and Aldosterone. From just this study, it does not appear that Trilostane would cause Aldosterone to rise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15478772

If you are not ready for lysodren, door number 2 contains twice day dosing and door number 3 contains looking at thyroid therapy which your vet suggested.


CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 23.5 (was 45.7) NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 61.4 (was 71.5) NORMAL 70.6-151.2

What did you vet say about these results? What were the recommendations?

I think it all boils down to what your comfort level is. I think your comfort level is at twice day dosing but I am just trying to read your mind:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I still would like to hear your vet's thoughts now that the UTK panel is here.

Hugs,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

I wanted to go back and point out a few things of importance from you prior posts as well as your most recent post. My comments are in blue below.



Ms. Honeyman, Because of the way Vetoryl (Trilostane) works; we expect increases in the concentration of some of the precursor steroid hormones. For me, the more significant finding is that Apollo's rear leg muscle wasting and weakness have gotten worse after 1 month on Vetoryl. At this point, I think it makes sense, if it hasn't already been done, to have your veterinarian or a board-certified neurologist evaluate Apollo for non-Cushing's causes of muscle wasting and weakness. If you haven't seen improvement in his rear legs in 1 month, I don't think continuing Vetoryl will help Apollo unless it is controlling other signs of Cushing's. Regards, Tim

The Trilostane is controlling other Cushing signs. Will go over with my vet and have neurologist who has already seen Apollo may go back.

I believe this was a very good plan of action and at this point, I don't believe Dr. Allen even knew that Apollo was knuckling. If he had, I believe he would have told you that knuckling is not the norm with cushing's and is even more reason to have Apollo seen by a neurologist. Is there any reason why your IMS/vet ignored this information and insisted on doing a UTK panel? As I mentioned to you previously, some intermediate elevations are to be expected in dogs treating with Trilostane, however, unless your IMS or gp vet has a crystal ball, there is no way to determine if these intermediates are causing a problem with Apollo. In my opinion, your precious money could have been spent on a lot more meaningful testing like a thyroid panel and a revisit with the neurologist. You may recall that I was hopeful that your IMS/vet would look past the UTK results and rule out more obvious causes for Apollo's ongoing weakness but based on your most recent post, I'm not sure that has happened. Apollo's cortisol is where it needs to be and if our vet(s) are suggesting that you switch him to twice dailly dosing based solely on symptoms that can be attributed to a nonadrenal problem, you should be very concerned with their experience and willingness to put Apollo at risk.


2. Addy:
3.
4.Intermediate hormones and muscle weakness
May 10, 2011
Discussion with Dr. Feinberg regarding results of Apollo’s April 15-21, 2011, Thyroid, ACHT STIM AND INTERMEDIATE HOROMONE RESULTS.:
The thyroid levels are good after being on Trilostane since March 19, 2011

As I recall, T4 and Free T4 levels were in the low normal range, meaning hypothyroidism could still be an issue.
1. Acht stim test within normal range
2. Trilostane does increase intermediate hormones:
3. Intermediate hormones are very elevated.
a. Estradiol typically increases liver involvement (hepatomegaly, steroid hepatopathy, increased ALP AND ALT) and PU/PD. MELATONIN AND LIGNANS MAY BE BEST TREATMENT APPROACH.
b. ALDOSTERONE- in normal to low range- frequently indicates primary adrenal tumor.
4. Keep dosage at 10mg. for now based on previous side effects when increased to 12.5mg. in November 2010( jaw trembling, throw up twice) retest in 2-3 months –ACHT STIM, INTERMEDICATE HOROMONES AND FULL BLOOD PANEL

With cortisol being within normal range and the usual symptoms being resolved, why was another UTK panel recommended by your vet?

5. Based on recommendations from UNIV OF TENNESSEE, DR. JACK OLIVER, start melatonin (to decrease androstenedione and testosterone conversion into estradiol) and lignan (to decrease estradiol levels) with the Trilostane.

Was this recommendation made based on all information from your vet regarding Apollo's medical history, such as cushing's symptoms had resolved yet weakness and knuckling persists? UTK normally has one piece of information provided them about a dog and that information comes in a vial of blood. Unless your vet provided them with Apollo's full history, their recommendations are based on nothing more than the results of the panel. Your vet(s) need to weigh this information in conjunction with Apollo's history and current issues. Has your vet concluded that the the intermediate hormones are responsible for Apollo's continuing issues?

6. Still dealing with muscle atrophy and skin issues, starting to have minor jaw trembling again.
7. May 13, 2011 going to holistic vet for acupuncture and discuss adding lignan and melatonin to diet and supplements, medication already taking.

In three months do an ACHT STIM,INTERMEDIATE HORMONE AND FULL BLOOD PANEL
The continued weakness, stiffness and sometimes legs just giving out has me very discouraged.

Is this your game plan or your gp vet's, IMS' or holistic vet's game plan? You have been discouraged for a very long time with Apollo's leg weakness and stiffness. What has your various veterinary caretakers have to say about it?

Again, Apollo's cortisol is in the low therapeutic range and based on his current symptoms, I believe it is a lot more risky to switch him to twice daily dosing than it is to try thyroid supplementation as suggested by your vet. Hypothyroidism isn't that easy to diagnose either and it is quite common for a vet to try thyroid supplementation to see if it is effective. If a dose is too high, a dog becomes hyperthyroid at which point 100% will have pu/pd (start drinking and peeing like crazy) and you either drop the dose down or stop altogether. I believe you mentioned that you think that thyroxin is bad for older dogs? I have never heard of this so am wondering if you can tell me where you read this?[/QUOTE]


I just got the results today. More baffled then ever. Why is Apollo loosing the strength in all legs? The hormone reading are slowly going down, put one reading not. I am not ready to switch to Lysodren. So here I am. Do we increase the dosage to twice daily and wait a little more? Why was his thyroid reading low?

Sonja, I am also baffled. I am baffled that after two acth stimulation tests showing cortisol levels within the (low) therapeutic range and all normal symptoms of cushing's being resolved, that you are asking if you should switch Apollo to twice daily dosing. Is your vet suggesting this?

As for the thyroid, I believe I explained that Apollo's thyroid levels were low normal a few months ago and it is not unusual for those levels to continue to drop. I think the vet who suggested thyroid supplementation was probably on the right track. Apollo's latest bloodwork was great but I noticed that the cholesterol and the CPK both increased. In my experience, that is what you would expect to see in a dog with primary hypothyroidism. As the thyroid hormones drop, the cpk and cholesterol goes up. Did you ask your vet why Apollo's t4 and free t4 went down? What did he say? Cushing's can cause transient drops in thyroid hormones but once the cushing's is under control, they normalize but that doesn't seem to be the case with Apollo which makes primary hypothyroidism a likely suspect. If a dog has primary hypothyroidism, the thyroid gland over a period of years can simply lose its ability to produce adequate thyroid hormones. Dogs can be diagnosed at any age and it is quite common for elderly dogs to be diagnosed. Thyroid meds are the cheapest meds I buy. Has your vet explained all of this to you?


4/30/11old reading
July 20, 2011 new
CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 23.5 (was 45.7) NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 61.4 (was 71.5) NORMAL 70.6-151.2

ANDROSTENEDIONE NG/ML BASELINE 3.03 (WAS 4.08) NORMAL .05-.36
POST 3.92 (WAS 6.78) NORMAL .24-2.90

ESTRADIOL PG/ML BASELINE 63.4 (WAS 69.9) NORMAL 23.1-65.1
POST 73.9 NORMAL 23.3-69.4

PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.21 (WAS 1.45) NORMAL .03-0.17
POST 3.19 (WAS 3.13) NORMAL .22-1.45

17OH PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.82 ( WAS 5.68) NORMAL .08-.22
POST 5.95 (WAS 16.8) NORMAL .25-2.63

ALDOSTERONE PG/ML baseline <11.0 ( WAS 39.5) NORMAL 11-139.9
POST 96.3 (WAS 66.9) NORMAL 72.9-398.5
RESULTS INDICATE PRESENCE OF INCREASED ADRENAL ACTIVITY(MODERATE) As Dr. Allen mentioned, these elevations are to be expected with Vetoryl (Trilostane). I personally have yet to find any scientific evidence showing that these elevations cause relapse or recurring symptoms. Are your vets telling you otherwise?

SEX STEROID PATHWAY IS AFFECTED. Apollo has typical cushing's and since cortisol synthesis isn't possible without going through the sex steroid pathway, this statement is a no brainer. In my opinion, this is further evidence that the UTK recommendations are about as general as you can get and not based on a dog's entire medical history. SOME VETS CONSIDER ITEMS 2-4 COMBINED(OR #5 COMBINED(LYSDODREN), and an experienced vet may not consider either depending on a dog's symptoms. Again this is a very pat statement made by UTK to be interpreted as a suggestion, not a prescription for treatment. What is your vet proposing to do with this information

IF NOT EFFECTIVE) ALREADY TAKING MELATONIN AND LIGNANS-(MAYBE UP THE DOSAGE SINCE HORMONES COUNT IS GOING DOWN BUT ALDOSTERONE POST IS UP? Did UTK makes this statement in their recommendation or is this your comment? I ask because aldosterone may have gone up but it is still low normal so I'm trying to figure out why aldosterone is being targeted as a problem to be dealt with?

Sonja, are you asking questions based on your vet's opinion or are you trying to figure things out on your own and hope that melatonin and lignans will make a difference for Apollo?

Sorry for the length of this post, for jumping around and sounding like a broken record but I am trying to understand where your veterinary professionals are coming from. It seems that your vet(s) are hung up on cushing's and/or intermediate hormones being the cause of Apollo's problems when other causes are much more apparent, or at least they are in my layman's eyes. Honestly, I can't tell whether the items and/or plan of actions you list in your posts are your vets' recommendations or your own. One vet recommended thyroid supplementation, which in my opinion seems to be sound advice, but I believe that advice was dismissed by you. Was that based on your fear of thyroxin or did another one of your vets advise against it? I think it would help if you let us know which vet is interpreting the UTK panel results and what plan of action has been recommended to you?

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

I can't even begin to share with you as much experience and knowledge as Glynda has to share, but I do agree with her. It is so easy to get tunnel vision when dealing with a condition like Cushing's. Everything we see that is not normal, we tend to lay at the feet of Cushing's - the KNOWN problem. However, having Cushing's does not in any way prevent a pup from having other problems that are NOT connected to Cushing's at all. And it seems this may be what is happening with Apollo. Everyone involved seems to have zeroed in on Cushing's as the blame for all of Apollo's problems - and, like Glynda, I just don't think that is the case.

If Apollo were mine, I would do two things immediately. 1) Start him on thyroid meds asap. They are inexpensive and easy to start and stop. 2) Get him into a neurologist, if you can afford it, for a complete work-up. Rule every other possibility out for his knuckling, trembling, weak legs, ect. that are NOT typical with controlled cortisol.

We know he has Cushing's; you are treating that condition and it is working; BUT there is more going on than Cushing's IMHO or we wouldn't be seeing all these other problems in him.

To ease your mind and perhaps learn a bit more about the intermediates, send UTK a clear, concise history of ALL of Apollo's signs and see what they have to say. IF the intermediates can cause what you are seeing, I believe they will know...the will also know if they cannot cause these things.

We are all behind you, sweetie, and want the very best for you and your precious boy. But I think it is time to look away from Cushing's for the answers. ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[apollo6]

Dear Glynda and Leslie
Thank you for your input. Most of what I am posting is my own guessing. I have not talked to the vet yet. I asked to have the report faxed before talking to him. I will talk to him on Monday. He does feel it could be the thyroid. I got the information from the forum about double dosing him. Apollo's skin infections are healing slowly and the black patches are starting to grow some hair. His tail is starting to grow some hair also. His coat is looking a lot shiner and better.
So I think you are saying the blood panels are not to bad other then the readings which could indicate hypothyroidism(cholesterol going up) and the thyroid test. The vet and I wanted to do a full blood panel and the thyroid, Acht Stim and hormones to see how Apollo would do starting the lignans, melatin and Trilostane to see if the hormones reading would go down.
Glynda , you are right about the fear of putting Apollo on a thyroid supplement. How will it interact with the TRilostane and what are the side effects. Like the test shows his cortisol is within the normal range and has dropped some. It was my thinking about increasing the dosage on the lignans and melatonin to help with the hormones. The readings are going down. But I have not talked to the vet. I will go over with him on Monday and also talk about the front paw knuckling and the weakening back legs. The neurologist wanted to do a muscle biopsy and nerve stimulation test for about $2,000. My vet said you already know he has muscle weakness so why waste the money? Could the tumor be getting bigger? I am scared.
Sonja and Apollo
P.s. I have not done any changes on his medications and always check with the vet before so doing.

[jmac]

Hi Sonja-

I have been following your story of cute little Apollo, and I wish I had some helpful advice to offer, but unfortunately I don't. The only thing I did want to comment on is that from what I have read on this forum,as well as another one, it seems that thyroid problems and Cushing's go hand in hand frequently, and I believe many people have their dogs on both medications.

My parents' collie was hypothyroid and he had very thin hair, and lots of skin stuff going on (both on his back and tail). Since he got his thyroid regulated it is like night and day. His coat is super thick, healthy, fluffy, soft, and full, and the skin irritations/flaking/scabbing he had for so long (that they thought was more like dermatitis or dandruff) is totally gone. If I were you I would also put Apollo on the thyroid meds (which I know are really affordable) and see what happens.

I was hypothyroid myself, and I can't tell you how much better I feel and how different things are now that I am regulated. I had dry skin, I could pull out tons of hairs when I ran my hand through my hair, I was tired constantly, and I had lots of aches and pains. I feel SO much better now that things are regulated. It is probably very similar for our pets.

Finally, I have no idea what to make of the knuckling. I do know that my dog Bailey, who is now in heaven, mysteriously injured his back (we have no idea how, as we were home with him all weekend), and I only knew because he was dragging his back leg and was unable to put his foot back when the vet bent it under so he was on his knuckle. Do you think there is any chance Apollo injured something or had something happen to a nerve, and this is what caused the knuckling? I haven't read every single post in your thread, so maybe you addressed it already, but it was just a thought. My parents also had a dog who missed the bottom step and did a little roll, but somehow pinched something in her neck, and she was walking on her knuckles of her front leg as well. She did recover.

Good luck to you, and I hope things will get better for your little guy!

Julie & Hannah

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

The skin improvements, the coat condition, the labs all say you are on the right track in treating the Cushing's. Continuing with the Trilo, lignans and melatonin is a good plan since you are seeing positive results in this area.


The neurologist wanted to do a muscle biopsy and nerve stimulation test for about $2,000. My vet said you already know he has muscle weakness so why waste the money?

If the tests were simply to learn if Apollo has muscle wasting, then I agree - there is no need to learn what you already know. However, if the test(s) are to see if the CAUSE could be determined, then that is an altogether different thing. I would want to talk with a neurologist to see what other testing is available that could help find the answer and hopefully a plan of action to help him.

The fear of a macro is something that lives in the back of many of our minds, I'm sure. I know every time Squirt does something a bit out of the norm, that is one of the very first thoughts that runs through my mind - "oh god....she does have a tumor and it's growing..." There is only one way that I know of to find out and that is the MRI. I will say that the signs I most often associate with a macro - circling and head pressing - are not present in Apollo's behavior. ;)

Let us know what the vet has to say and keep up the good work!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[k9diabetes]

Only because I have been dealing with a neurologist recently and also dealt with one a few years ago, it would be tremendously helpful if you have a copy of the report from the neurologist after you last visit to see what exactly his/her thoughts were on your dog's symptoms at the time.

The neurologist typically prepares a written report of your visit and the findings of the examination and sends it to your vet. So if you don't have a copy, ask either the neurologist or your vet for it.

Knuckling is a classic sign of some kind of interruption of the nerve impulses from the spine down into the legs and which ones knuckle can indicate where the lack of communication is located. And I would think stiff walking might potentially be a way of compensating for some kind of weakness.

Has Apollo's spine been thoroughly x-rayed?

If so, any sign of bad discs?

I would think there must be some cues, if only some things that were ruled out, in the neurologist's report.

We just had an MRI done on our dog's back but that was only to lay to rest any lingering questions about a limp he has on one side.

The noninvasive, quick, and simple tests the neurologist can do in a single office visit should tell him or her a great deal about where a potential problem might be located. So presumably the neurologist came to some conclusions last time. And also might come to further conclusions from an examination now that it seems the symptoms have progressed.

As our neurologist put it, by the time he does an MRI he should already know what he's going to find based on the physical examination. Not that every problem can be figured out, with or without an MRI. Our dog's rear right leg limping remains something of a mystery.

But the neurological signs Apollo is showing should be giving the neurologist a picture of what is likely going on with him. I read an article recently that described in detail - so clinical I had a hard time following all of it - what can be determined from simple neurological tests and it's pretty amazing.

Natalie

[addy]

Dearest Friend,

So there is door number four.

I am so glad that Apollo's coat and skin condition are improving because I know that next to the leg problems, it was a big concern for you. If there are no other symptoms not currently being controlled then I agree BID is not needed nor do you need a dose increase if we are now to surmise the leg weakness is not caused by Apollo's Cushings.


Zoe's thyroid was borderline before we got the Cushing diagnosis. Once we get her cortisol well controlled, I do want to recheck that for her just to make sure it is not a problem any more since she has the skin/coat issues as well. Her holistic vet was treating her with a prescription human drug called Armor. Originally I thought it was that drug causing Zoe's thinning coat.

I fear all of this is going to overwhelm you and cause you much stress. Please don't let it. You know Apollo best. You see him and take care of him every day. I know it all gets confusing and it seems like things change day by day which make it more confusing. We can only throw ideas around, we don't live with the dog, we can only read what has been written and that applies to you as well. You can only read what is written here too and sometimes it is hard to keep up with it all and sometimes it seems like what is written can be confusing.

You have done really well with Apollo and you have brought him this far. You will continue to do the right thing for him. We all love you both and want to support you however we can.

Sending much love and hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Julie,Hannah, Leslie and the girls, and Addy, thank you all for your input.
As I posted , the readings are getting better. So is it really the thyroid when it was within normal range when he started taking Trilostane and now is not?
below is what neurologist said.

34. ___September 7TH 2010 APT WITH DR. LIPSKY NEUROLOGIST-DIAGNOS-NEUROMUSCULAR VS MYELOPATHY( L4,5,6 disks in vertebra
) CUSHING MYOPATHY, DEGENERATIVE NEUROPATY AFFECTING FEMORAL NERVES, VASCULAR EVENT, NEOPLASIA (could wait and see if improvement or do electromyography(EMg) or take a biopsy of muscle



21. Diagnosis of myotonia consists of electromyography (EMG) analysis and muscle biopsies. Myotonic EMG potentials are high frequency discharges that wax and wane, producing a characteristic “dive-bomber” sound. Some have also reported that many dogs with hyperadrenocorticism can have pseudomyotonic potentials, which do not wax and wane in frequency and amplitude, and have a characteristic high-pitched sound like a motor.6 Muscle biopsies may reveal histological findings characteristic of a steroid myopathy, including fiber size variation, fiber atrophy (especially type II), subsarcolemmal masses, fiber splitting and focal necrosis.6
22. Treatment of the myotonia is initially directed at treating the underlying hyperadrenocorticism. In addition to physical therapy, cell membrane stabilizing medications including procainamide at 12.5 mg/kg PO BID have been reported to be beneficial at reducing muscular stiffness in dogs with myotonia.6

Will talk to vet Monday. I am overwhelmed as to what is causing his legs to continue to get weaker. I have notes as far back as last year in July 2010 referring to the weakness. It has only gotten worse.
Do I try the thyroid medication with the TRilostane? Or will I have other problems for my little boy?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[jmac]

Do I try the thyroid medication with the TRilostane? Or will I have other problems for my little boy?

I am definitely not the person to give advice on the combination of the two drugs. Does your vet say it's okay? Are there others on here who have their dogs on both? Can you find info. on the internet, or ask your vet to tell you what it says in his/her reference book? It sounds like your vet would like to try it.

If they say it is okay to try, it might be good to see if that helps, but it still may not get you to the root of the leg issue. Hopefully he would feel better and improve in other ways though.

Best of luck to you!
Julie & Hannah

[frijole]

Sonja, My Haley who had cushing's had thyroid issues and was on a thyroxine med for probably 8 yrs. She took it with lysodren. I don't know where you are getting that it can't be mixed with trilostane. Never heard that. Fact is many cush dogs also have thyroid problems. So I'm guessing alot of dogs are on both trilo and thyroxine. I'm also not sure where you are getting the info that it is a harmful drug. Its cheap, effective and I never had any issues ever.

Hope this helps. Kim

[Harley PoMMom]

Terri's furbaby, Corky, has been on thyroid medicine and Trilostane for some time now and I do believe Corky has had no ill effects from the combination.

This link might be of interest to you:The effect of trilostane treatment on circulating thyroid hormone concentrations in dogs with pituitary-dependent hyperadrenocorticism. (http://www.mendeley.com/research/effect-trilostane-treatment-circulating-thyroid-hormone-concentrations-dogs-pituitarydependent-hyperadrenocorticism/)

Also here is a quote from an article by Dr. Bruyette:
No adverse drug interactions have been seen in dogs receiving trilostane and several nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, various antibiotics, insulin, or levothyroxine.


http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=522834&sk=&date=&pageID=2

[apollo6]

Dear Juli, Kim and Lori
Thank you. Thank you. :) You are angels. I will look at the articles before talk to vet tomorrow. Thank you for easing my mind.
I will post under therapy pictures - Apollo's front paws what he does know. Maybe you can give me some insight.
You are the best.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Lulu was diagnosed with hypothyroidism at two years old and has been on .01 mg thyroxine for seven years now. Two of those years she was also being treated with Trilostane. She was stabilized on 30mg Trilostane once a day, which is a huge dose for a 4.5 lb dog.

[k9diabetes]

Hi Sonja,

Your first quote there from the neurologist sounds like the list of potential / differential diagnoses - basically just a laundry list of the possibilities.

You'll see in the summary of our first neurology visit something similar but it's only part of a two-page narrative report on the examination:



Assessment
The neurological examination was normal today and the neuroanatomical localization is apparent back pain. Differential diagnoses include a disc protrusion, infectious, inflammatory, vascular, neoplastic, and degenerative.


The report is much more detailed. It lists everything that was tested and his response to those tests.

After the last examination, the neurologist noted specifics of the neuro exam:


Neurological Examination
Mentation: QAR, appropriate
Gait/posture: ambulatory x4, +/- mildly stiff RPL only. Appropriate head/neck/tail carriage
CN: No deficits
Postural Reaction: intact x4
Segmental Reflexes: intact x4, intact perineal and CRT
Spinal Palpation: no apparent pain and allowed full cervical and tail manipulations

And I'm guessing that there may be damage to Apollo's L4-L5 and L5-L6 disks. Those are lumbar discs in the lower back and I do not believe that problems in those discs would be causing Apollo's front feet to knuckle. As I understand it, front foot knuckling would come from lack of communication over the spinal cord much farther forward.

So it seems to me that there should be much more detailed information available about exactly how Apollo responded to the battery of neurological tests that they would have run and that those response should have narrowed down what they think might be going on to cause the knuckling and stiffness.

I know in conversation they often will talk more about what they *believe is happening. Such as both neurologists we saw felt certain our dog's problem was not an infection because it was longstanding and stable. So that was essentially ruled out or at least dropped from the short list of possibilities.

I am hoping that there is a more detailed report on Apollo's visit that might shed some light on what the neurologist thinks is or definitely is not going on.

Natalie

[apollo6]

i will post the full report later.
thank you Natalia and Glynda.
Sonja and Apollo

[mypuppy]

Hi Sonya,
I don't post too often even on my own thread, but am keeping updated on my special babies, Apollo included. I just want to say Im thinking of you and your precious boy and am sending lots of love and well wishes for his good health.

We love you both dearly.

Tight hugs to both of you. Xo Jeanette

[apollo6]

I am posted what the vet and I discussed.
I question the thyroid issue because before I restarted him on Trilostane his thyroid count was low, then on TRilostane it was within the normal range, and now that his cortisol is dropping(but still within the normal range) his thyroid is low again?

July 25, 2011
Dr. Feinberg
1. Cortisol has gone down more, still within range
2. Intermediate hormones are going down
3. But Aldosterone Baseline < 11(range 11-139.9) post 96.3 was 66.8(range 72.9-398.5
4. Skin infections slow healing gave a Convenia antiboitic(2week coverage) shot to help heal

5. Recheck in two weeks, do thyroid test to see if thyroid goes down more and progression of muscle weakness.
6. Continue on same dosage of Trilostane-10m.g once daily


The neurologist notes from Sept 2010
.
Cushings diagnosed in JUne 2010 and under treatment. Has had progressive paraparesis and muscle wasting also. ( I really notice not only in legs but face) The weakness was noticed in JUne. Stiff gait and extends his back legs.( at that time he did not have the front leg problems also). The changes in the back legs seem to have plateued. He dosen't seem painful. He does not like to go for walks. Having a harder time climbing steps( no longer can climb at all) Falls down in the back end sometimes(now in front also)
Attitude:BAR?
MUSCULOSKELETAL: GENERALIZED MUSCLE ATROPHY-MOST NOTICEABLE ON HEAD AND CRANIAL THIGH REGION.
Body condition: 4/9
Mental Status;normal
POsture: stand with stifles hyperextended
Gait:Ambulatory with abnormal PL gait. Stiff-legged, dysmetric gait in PL, mild circumduction, tail extends.
Cranial nerve examination: intact
POstural reactions:Cp intact x4 although the LPL is intermittenly delayed.
Spinal reflexes-pelvic limbs: withdrawl, gastroc intact. Weak patellar bilaterally.
spinal reflexes-thoracic limbs;intact
spinal reflexes-others: cutaneus trunci absent
somatosensory Functions:N/A
palpation: not painful on palpations
Neuroantomic Diagnosis:
Neuromuscular vs myelopathy(L4,5,6)
Differental diagnosis:
Cushing myopathy, degenerative neuropathy afffecting femoral nerves,vascular event, neoplasia

Plan.
Recommend EMG, and continue to monitor for improvement or progression of muscle signs as the other cushing signs are improving on meds
So here I am. Not in a good place with Apollo
Any input would be appreciated. I am overwhelmed about my baby's legs.
Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja,

I'm sorry your in this place right now. Take a little break for yourself. Time is precious. The cove is beautiful right now...break out the pretty red stroller and enjoy your little boy!

Love Ya,
Rene & Snoopie

/( '.' )\
. ( UU)/
Apollo

[addy]

Dearest Friend,

Do we know what kind of treatment helps this ?
The specialist just said monitor it?



Cushing myopathy, degenerative neuropathy afffecting femoral nerves,vascular event, neoplasia

Sending much love.

Addy

[addy]

http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm

I found this link, maybe some advice on exercise, etc.

Love,
Addy

[MBK]

Sonja -

Just wanted to say I think about you and Apollo often and I am so hoping you both get some good news soon! You are so good to Apollo, but I can only imagine how stressful the problems with his legs, and not knowing the cause, must be.

Hang in there. I hope you get a diagnosis and treatment plan soon!

[HarrysMom]

Sonja,
My Harry also recently saw a neurologist - and he diagnosed Harry with lower limb (rear end) neuropathy - possibly present even before Harry's diabetes / Cushing's.
She said that Harry's symptoms are so obvious with basic reflex examination and his gait that she did not need to pursue extra fancy tests.
In Harry's case, she said that keeping the muscles functional and strong would keep him mobile.
I know you are doing physical therapy, but perhaps that is the best you could do?
I don't know much about this issue, but I don't know if all the extra tests would do anything.

[apollo6]

Dear Rene, Addy, Yunhee,Mary Kay and Jeanette
Thank you for your support. I go for a recheck on his thyroid in two weeks? Will see. He already is doing the physical exercises, getting Vitamin e in a supplement. My other vet said if the thyroid is still low maybe trying thyroid supplement might help. At a loss.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

Quick pop in from me, if you do some research on Dr. Jean Dodd's website, she will discuss sometimes borderline readings on the dog's thyroid or perhaps the reading is a bit low so a traditional vet may not suggest treatment, could still be too low for an individual dog. It may pay to send her your next thyroid test to her if you go that route.

Love,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

I second Addy's excellent suggestion about sending Apollo's blood specimen to Dr. Dodds.

[apollo6]

Thank you Addy and Glynda.
Because the test took so long for the results. Apollo has been off the TRilostane since Tuesday. I hope to get new order by Friday. But I will monitor Apollo to see if there are any changes him while I wait for his medication. I have to let go and let God handle it. I am pretty exhausted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

My dear friend,

I am a firm believer that things seem to happen for a reason. I am sure that any decision that you have made for Apollo has been the right one for the both of you and you will continue to do so. We are all here for you and support you.

With much love,
Rene & Snoop

[addy]

Thank you for checking in on us. We are fine and hope you and Apollo are too.

I am picturing you with a Sonja Sunday Special, sharing the whipped cream with Apollo.:):):) Hope that is how you are spending your day.:)

My two are at my feet, sleeping away. Love these quiet moments. Funny thing, since we brought Zoe's cortisol down, she keeps trying to steal Koko's favorite toy from him. She's like a viper sometimes, when she can't take anymore, she grabs it out of his mouth:rolleyes:
He is such a good boy to her. The stalking is funny to watch.

Love you,
Addy

[k9diabetes]

Hi Sonja,

My apologies for being so slow to get back to the detailed results you posted. I've been a bit swamped lately, unfortunately.

It looks like the neurologist's plan was to see if the Cushing's treatment made a significant improvement in Apollo's problems, which apparently it has not.

He certainly saw a lot of signs of problems in the hind legs. He noted a hyperextension of the stifles (knee) plus a stiff stance in his back legs and walking unevenly on the back legs. Also that the paw roll test on the back left leg was intermittently slow. Some weak reflexes and an absent reflex on the cutaneous trunci... you can see a definition of some of the tests here from the Merck manual:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/100108.htm

This also notes that atrophy of any muscle can indicate loss of nerve function to that area and Apollo seems to have many many signs of impaired nerve communication.

The PL is shorthand for posterior limb I believe. LPL being left posterior limb.

Glynda's post about all the things that can come from hypothyroid was very interesting. If it was me, I'd put a comprehensive thyroid panel at the top of the list of things to do next.

The other thing I would do is ask for a consult with the neurologist - perhaps after the thyroid panel is done - to review the new sysmptoms with him. The fact that the symptoms have moved up to the front of Apollo's body would, I suspect, be informative for the neurologist along with the fact that Cushing's treatment has not only not improved anything but that his leg functions are now worse than they were before. I think the jaw shaking also is an important piece of information.

I believe some inflammatory processes can directly cause muscle wasting. I knew a dog a few years ago who had very severe arthritis. Every other test came up negative but his muscles were just disappearing and it seemed like the inflammatory process of his arthritis might, in addition to his lack of exercise, have been attacking his muscle mass directly.

It is really hard when the body is suffering so many assaults... our diabetic dog suffered much more from his severe heart disease than he did from the diabetes. He had six or seven different cardiac diagnoses. And even then it was eventually cancer that took his life. The heart disease slowed him way down but was manageable thanks to some good medications.

At one point, he had a severe skin infection around his eyelids - Apollo's made me think of this. The dermatologist thought it might be a reaction to one of his other medications but acknowledged that he needed all of those other medications so it didn't really matter if it was. Later it seemed to me that it was probably an auto-immune attack.

It winds up being management as best you can and being sensitive to when the burden is too much to bear. The consult with the neurologist would, perhaps, be more for you than for Apollo. For the hope that you might eventually know what you are dealing with, which can be better than guessing...

Natalie

[apollo6]

Dear Natalie
Thank you for taking the time to post. I will be doing a full thyroid test in two weeks and like you said the comprehensive one. I see my little boy trying to hard to walk.
Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

So how did Apollo do off his meds? I think you you ran out and went off on 7/26...did you get the shipment on Friday 7/29 and restart? How are you guys doing?

Rene & Snoopie

[jmac]

Hi Sonja-
Like Rene, I just wanted to check in and see how you and Apollo are doing. Hope you're both hanging in there...

Julie & Hannah

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Julia
Thank you for checking in. It has been a crazy week for me. Apollo did fine off his meds -it was only 3 days. The pharmacy FedEx his medicine overnight because of their error and he got it on Friday.
I wish I could say his walking is better. He is stiff in the front now also. He either is gaining weight or getting back some muscle just not sure. Next week will go for thyroid test to see if this is causing the muscle weakness and stiffness. He seems to get out breath more and more and I don't know if it is the weather but he overheats so easily. I spray him with cool water and take a damp cool wet cloth and rub his body.
Monday was my birthday, I worked all day with dealing with computer problems with our store computer. But my Mom made sure to make me take Sunday to celebrate. Went to dentist for regular check up, wound up with cavity under a cap and somewhat inflammed gums , had to have a deep cleaning, anitibotics put in pocket under gums, remove crown, fill cavity , temp crown, go back for second deep cleaning on other half of face get new crown. Don't ask the cost. Wasn't expecting it. Tight at work. Trying to keep my head above water and wishing my boy, Apollo would get back his old self and legs.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
p.s. go for physical therapy for Apollo tomorrow, still have to work on fixing store computer.
ONe good thing: Apollo stepped up on flower bed brick. He is still here.

[mypuppy]

Happy Belated Birthday Wishes

To you Sonja. :p

Tight hugs to you and your precious boy.

XO Jeanette and Princess:)

[addy]

I MISSED YOUR BIRTHDAY?????:(:(:(:(:(:(



Dearest Friend,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY UNBIRTHDAY TOO!!!!!!

We love you,
Addy, Zoe and Koko

[jmac]

Happy belated birthday! Glad you took a little time to celebrate! And glad to hear there was one good thing with Apollo!

Julie & Hannah

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy Birthday, Sonja!

We hope you had a very special day!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Rene]

{(((SonjaApollo)))}
Happy Happy Birthday Sonja!!!

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy belated Birthday, Sonja!!!


Love and hugs, Lori

[MBK]

Happy belated birthday, Sonja!!!!
I am so sorry to hear you have so much stress going on right now. Your tooth problem sounds PAINFUL!

You take such good care of Apollo. I hope you get some answers and improvement soon!!

[apollo6]

:eek:Dear Jeannette, Addy, Rene, Annie, Marybeth, Lorie and anyone I forgot, this is the best birthday , wishes from you all. You made my day. I am a dinosaur still have all the original parts.:eek:
One good thing. Apollo attempted to go out the dogie door into the patio and walk up one step into the flower bed and go potty by himself. For a moment I had my baby back. He fell afterwards. But he is such a little trooper. I gave him a treat right a way.
The bad: His pop was very watery and a green slimy color. I stuck my finger with a plastic glove on up is behind to see if he was having trouble pressing-nothing there. His stomach is gurgling. Yesterday, under stress I forgot to take out his raw, tried to defrost in microwave under frozen veg setting-not a good idea, fried the meat , looked like something out of a Sci-fi movie( the Blob:eek:) gave him salmon(maybe not a good idea)
Still problems with legs. I need to get my boy out more. He seems to enjoy being out. Next week thyroid test- Don't feel it is his thyroid causing the Cushing myatropy.
Weekend working on store computer problems.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Squirt's Mom]

Don't feel it is his thyroid causing the Cushing myatropy.

Hi Sonja,

I think you are right about this without question. Just keep in mind you may well be looking at more than Cushing's...things unrelated to Cushing's. The thyroid and muscle wasting are very possibly two additional, separate problems on their own. The test next week on the thyroid should answer one question - are his thyroid levels too low? If it is, that can be easily treated and you should see at least some improvement.

Looking forward to getting the answer to this question as I am sure you are! ;)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[addy]

Wishing you luck, dear friend with the thyroid test for Apollo.
I have been resting Zoe's muscles very other day from walking. I read about it on a Degenerative Myelopathy site.

Sorry to hear about his poo. I am sure he will recover:) I read sometimes you can defrost the raw if you put it in a sealed plastic bag and let it sit in warm water for a bit. Never tried it though:rolleyes::o

Zoe went to the groomers today and the house was so empty without her. It usually does not bother me but it did today. I kept looking for her and missing her for the 4 hours.

Hope you have a better time with your tooth.

Love,
Addy

[Rene]

HI Sonja!

Was researching Vetoryl on their website for Addy and thought you might find it intresting. I know Apollo's Aldosterone was low on his last test. You Posted:

3. But Aldosterone Baseline < 11(range 11-139.9) post 96.3 was 66.8(range 72.9-398.5


Product Spec Sheet mentions one of the Trilo's side effects being it can lower Aldosterone. We know from other literature that Trilo it can raise other sex hormones. Apollo's other hormones were also high maybe from the start or the Trilo...we do not know... With the hormones out of whack we can assume his electrolites are imbalanced.

When Aldosterone gets too low it can effect potassium and other electrolites causing hyperkalemia or hypokalemia. Hyperkalemia will shut the nerves down. You mentioned that Apollo is cronically dehydrated. I noticed it too. I believe his Potassium at the time of the tests was in range but if the electrolites are in a constant state of flux and the cortisol is not being evenly controled, I wonder if he could be experiencing states of hyperkalemia/hypokalemaia. I guess a simple uneducated explanation could be that if he has electrolite imbalances the nerves just can't communicate well and shut down. I have a similar condition and it makes sence to me. I just didn't know that low Aldosterone could start that "ball rolling" until I read it on Dectra's warning tonite.

Just a thought...maybe someone will chime in that actually knows what they are talking about :o

Rene & Snoop

[apollo6]

Dear Leslie , Addy and Rene
Thank you for your input. Rene will look into it. Just baffled by it all.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
crazy week ahead, computers still not working. a lot of appointments with Apollo, etc.

[apollo6]

:DApollo went to vet today.
July 26,27,28 off Trilostane –ran out , resumed on July 29
August 10, 2011
Discussed with Dr. Feinberg, skin infections, another antibiotic shot-Convenia. Said Apollo looked great other than legs and healing skin infections. Doing Thyroid Profile 5(Hemopet) to see if thyroid could be causing muscle wasting in legs. Feel also in head. Still trying to figure out why all legs are giving out. Good appetite, alert, said teeth still look good, tail is starting to get hair. A little stomach gurgling, gas occasionally. But on weight now 12 lbs. gained a pound in less than a month( thyroid? giving more treats? not walking exercising enough?) To apply Vetericyn Vf twice a day to skin infection on face to help heal. Hopes not a tumor.(don't think so) Test will take a few weeks. Will need to ask when next Acht stim test to schedule.
Still no answers about his weakness in all legs. Could it be the intermediate hormones? the TRilostane?Drags hind legs sometimes when turning around. Tomorrow acupuncture, massage. Friday physical therapy. Hard to keep going sometimes.
one thing Good: After vet, decided to go to dog meet and Apollo just walked around by himself to sniff and visit with other dogs. He still has spirit. Still stuck up. Friend wanted to give him a kiss and he turned his head away.:eek:
Through all the struggles, I try to savor the moments with Apollo. That is all we have.
He bowel movements are improving . The hardest thing is the financial stress with the business and paying for Apollo's treatments. But I will continue to be there for my little boy. Through everything I am going through he is my rock.Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Have posted Apollo new job under 2011.

[Rene]

That is to funny Sonja...he looks so proud!

Maybe a play date tomorrow?

Rene & Snoop

[Rene]

Hey Sonja,

Sorry work has been an added stress. :(

I forgot about the Juven. Have you been giving it to Apollo in his quarter teaspoon doses AM & PM?

If so there should be news by now :)

Can we get a play date?

Love ya,
Rene & Snoop

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

I hope you get the thyroid test results soon. I think it is wonderful Apollo's tail is growing hair:):):):)

I read quite a few positive things in your post and that nakes me very happy.

I understand the financial struggle only too well. I am sorry you have that extra burden.

Hubby was just reading to me that this weekend is Patio Dining throughout the city for well behaved dogs. I guess my two have been ruled out:D:D:D:D:D:p:p:p:p

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Addy
Thanks for checking in on me. Apollo has been on the Juven and his front muscles are building up, but still no increase in leg muscles. The vet called tonight with the results will get actual report tomorrow.
From my notes:


August 12, 2011
DR. Feinberg called said thyroid value normal. But is in low normal range. This is normal for a cushing dog. Apollo is putting on weight, more than a pound in one month( is it a slow thyroid, not exercising, no walking, too many treats?) Will fax or email me actual results Saturday
Still baffled by muscle atrophy. Would like to try low dosage of thyroid supplement twice daily for month to see if improvement. Call doctor within one week to report any change in Apollo. To do next Acht Stim in 2-3 months.
Doing well in physical therapy. Holistic doctor says Apollo is very alert, happy, and coat is improving well may be due to raw diet. Told Vet I read the average cushing dog only lives 24 months from diagnosis. Said don’t go there. He is treating a dog that was told by vet would die in 2 months and two years later he is still going strong. Apollo is not ready to go. He doesn't know that anything is wrong. He is a good teacher for you. He is adapting to what is. But Apollo still falls in front . Skin infections are very slow in healing. So do I try the thyroid supplement and see what happens if no improvement can stop.


Would appreciate input.
On the lighter side: Addy my husband and I tried once to take both our dogs to an outside patio near Monterey California. We brought their food for them. Well they both decided they would rather have our food. They were whining , tried to jump up on the table. We were laughing so hard to keep them quiet, I am amazed we got through the dinner. The next day we brought a pizza to the hotel and ate outside with them.

[Rene]

Sonja,

It sounds like you have had a few little wins!!! The kind folks here keep saying the thyroid meds are pretty harmless and inexpensive so is worth a shot?

Also, did you mention to the vet the possibility of Apollo's low Aldosterone causing Hyperkalemia/electrolite problems and causing the nerve problems in his legs?

Rene & Snoop

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Leslie
Thanks for the posts.
Both doctors don't think the sex hormones are cause? Holistic tested Apollo's reflexes, says the nerves are okay but the muscles are wasted in some areas of leg and have built up in front?
I will post the results later.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Cyn719]

Sonja - Having same issues here with Penny - Pennys legs are weak also - she did have two knee surgies but that was all good - she tore her hock never healed - walks on her toes on that leg but along good - now her legs are just so weak!!! Shes exhausted - weak legs - so so confused - Apollo is a lucky ittle one - has a great mom who is doing all she can for him!! Fingers and paws crossed that things get better!!! PS I am going to have Pennys thyroid tested again it was low but Dr Peterson said it was ok but with her like this I have to check again!!

[MBK]

Hi, Sonja -

Just stopped by to see how you and Apollo are doing. Has he had any changes with his legs? Is he on any glucosamine supplements?

[apollo6]

Dear Cindy, Marybeth
Thanks for checking in. Apollo has not improved. Will post his thyroid panel. Started him on Solixine-thyroid medication for his legs more so than thyroidism because his reading were all normal other then is T4 being low normal. I am to wait a week and call vet with any signs of improvement. It gets hard at times. Keep on trucking as long as we can.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja,

All we have is our hope. He is such a little trooper and he is sooooo happy! Maybe this will help our little guy. You never know!

Hugs,
Rene & Snoop

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

When did Apollo start the Soloxine? Watch for little signs of improvement - those good things your mom talked about. ;) I can tell you from personal experience, when the thyroid levels are off the whole body gets out of whack and supplementing via meds makes a world of difference.

Hoping for the best possible outcome always!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[jmac]

Hi Sonja-

Hoping you'll see some small improvements in your little man's legs. I'm sorry things are kind of tough right now. I'm wishing for the best for you and Apollo.

Julie & Hannnah

[addy]

I am here too, dearest friend, hoping for a good outcome for our little man:D:D:D:D

Love,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Rene, Leslie, Andy and Julie
Thanks for all the well wishes.
Well hear goes.

results case specific general range
t4 1.15(was .7) 1.20-3. .80-3.80
free t4 1.02(was.35) .70-1.75 .55-2.32
t3 46(same) 25-60 30-70
Thyroglobulin
Autoantibody <1 <10 %
Thyroid levels are normal overall here despite clinical signs although T4 could be higher. The low T$ likely is non-thyroidal issue.(?) Recommend annual retesting.

TGA CONFIRMATIORY TEST RANGES <10% =negative: 10%-25%=eQUIVOCAL: >25 %=positive

ELEVATED TGAA confirm autoimmune thyroiditis(Apollo doesn't have) False positive results can occur if the dog has been vaccinated for rabies within 30-40 days(Apollo hasn't had) Thyroid hormone supplementation can decrease TGGA levels. Performed using the preferred Non-Specific binding (NSB) method.

So the results are saying Apollo's thyroid is okay, and the medicine can lower his TGGA even more. I am to call vet on Tuesday, so far nothing has improved.
Be patient.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja,

Such a sticky wicket...and the plot continues! No news is good news as least as far as the tests? :o Maybe our stubborn boy just needs a bit more time for the medicine to work. We can only hope. Hang in there good mommy!

Love to Hairy Man and Mom,
Rene & Snoopie

[addy]

Hang in there Sonja, let is know what your vet thinks about the test.

Hugs,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sonja,

These are results PRIOR to Apollo starting the thyroid meds?


ELEVATED TGAA confirm autoimmune thyroiditis(Apollo doesn't have)

This auto-immune condition was ruled out by the vets, or is this your conclusion?

(I remain perpetually confused....:o)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[apollo6]

Dear Leslie and Addy

What I think from the results is Apollo Thyroglobulin Autoantibody is with in the range which is lower than the 10% which means a negative result(I really don't understand what any of this means)and means he does not have autoimmune thyroiditis. But if his TGA(STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS) is not elevated he would not have autoimmune thyroiditis. I still am not sure what all this means. He started the Soloxine on the 16th.
I worry how much time I still have with my little boy.

Thyroglobulin Autoantibody <1 <10 %
Thyroid levels are normal overall here despite clinical signs although T4 could be higher. The low T4 likely is non-thyroidal issue.(?) Recommend annual retesting.

TGA CONFIRMATIORY TEST RANGES <10% =negative: 10%-25%=eQUIVOCAL: >25 %=positive

ELEVATED TGAA confirm autoimmune thyroiditis(Apollo doesn't have)
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

I can try and dig up some of Zoe's old thyroid tests and see how they word it. Hopefully Deb or someone will come along and know what it means.

Do you stay on the Soloxine? It looks like his T4 rose a bit higher than it was but is still a bit low and his T3 is normal if I am reading it right. If the low T4 is from his Cushings but his cortisol is controlled, I wonder how that all works:confused:

Do you speak with the vet today?

Love,
Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Dear Leslie and Addy

What I think from the results is Apollo Thyroglobulin Autoantibody is with in the range which is lower than the 10% which means a negative result(I really don't understand what any of this means)and means he does not have autoimmune thyroiditis. But if his TGA(STILL DON"T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS) is not elevated he would not have autoimmune thyroiditis. I still am not sure what all this means. He started the Soloxine on the 16th.
I worry how much time I still have with my little boy.

Hugs Sonja and Apollo

This quote comes from Dr. Dodds website:
Canine Thyroglobulin Autoantibodies (TgAA)

An estimated 80% of cases of canine hypothyroidism result from heritable autoimmune (lymphocytic) thyroiditis. Many popular breeds are at increased risk for this disorder, with English Setters being the breed exhibiting the highest prevalence of thyroiditis today (>40% of those tested).

The presence of elevated TgAA levels confirms thyroiditis, promotes early recognition of the disorder, and facilitates genetic counseling. Low-grade false positive results can occur if the dog has been vaccinated recently, especially with rabies vaccine; retesting is recommended in 90 days. False negative results can occur in up to 8% of T3AA and/or T4AA confirmed positive thyroiditis cases, presumably because not all epitopes of TgAA are recognized by the assay reagent. Dogs on thyroid supplement should be off this medication for at least 90 days to obtain accurate TgAA results. Please note that reporting units for the TgAA normal reference range have changed recently from <200% to <20%. All equivocal or positive results are repeated with a confirmatory test to correct for non-specific binding (NSB TgAA); the normal reference range for this confirmatory test is <10%.
There is more information about the test values here:http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/THYROID-ASSESSING-FUNCTION.HTM

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[apollo6]

Dear Leslie, Addy and Lorie
Thank you for your input. I will read the articles you have given me. Apollo started taking Soloxine after the last readings. So his thyroid readings were once again getting in the normal range other then the free T4(can't remember) I was to call the vet yesterday but will give it another day or so, because I can't say I notice much of a difference. Although my neighbor said she could not believe how much better he was walking. It is hard to see a difference when you are there every day. I might try to run the test by Glynda and get her input.
One good thing: Apollo ran to the mail box the other day. He stood on his hind legs to get a treat. He amazes me every once in a while.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[MBK]

Hi, Sonja -

Just here checking on you and Apollo. Sorry to hear you still don't have any answers. :( I know how scary that can be. As far as not knowing how much time you have with him...no one ever knows. My best friend had Alivia's sister. Patches never had any health issues. Alivia had several serious issues. Patches passed away rather suddenly about two months ago and Alivia is doing great. Neither of us would have ever guessed that Patches would be gone before Alivia. I am greatful for every day I have with Alivia. I know you are with Apollo, too. We have to remember to enjoy the little things! Hang in there!!

[apollo6]

Thank you Maria Beth
Wish I could say Apollo legs are better. He is such a trooper. When I least expect it he will try to come where I am in the house even though he gets winded so easily. He still runs for his treats. All I can do is love him even more. The vet said he was sorry Apollo had not improved. Will give the thyroid medication a month to see if any improvement. Still has the black patches on back and side of face, some hair growing. It has been over a month on these infections. Vet said unless any changes in Apollo to wait 6 months until next ACHT STIM. I don't feel good about waiting that long. I worry about Apollo's breathing , he gets winded so easily, and overheats easily now. Is that another Cushing side effect? I am wondering are his organs pushing against his lungs, is the tumor getting bigger? I can get so crazy and worried about it that I stay off the site sometimes for a while because I obsess to much. I want to thank everyone for their support and input.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

REALLY BIG HUGS AND LOVE




Love you,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Thanks for checking in on me. Hope you are not near the hurricane. And those of you who are. Praying you will be safe.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

We are back from our trip and wanted to pop in and see how are boy has been doing. I see you have been taking a little breather...good for you!

Give the little man a hug for us...and u too!

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

[apollo6]

Dear Rene
Glad you are back.
So far no change in Apollo's legs. Although my neighbors say he is improving.
One good thing: Today a little girl came by and Apollo was running after her. She laid down on the crowd and Apollo wanted to sit on her belly. Will the little girl said she had just eaten a cup cake!:eek:So one again Apollo had a hidden motive. He kept smelling her shirt, the dirty old man.:D
Dear Addy
Thank you for the support.
Thinking of calling vet for recheck within less than a month. He will have been on the Solixine a month by Sept 15th. He still has a mind of his own and can be very vocal.
The physical therapist said Apollo has built up so much muscle in the front to compensate for the weak hind legs, that he can hardly left the front, so she showed me how to massage the front to loosen up the stiffness so he can bend his front legs more. It is tough. But a little humor helps. Now I can add physical therapist or should I say trainer to my list of jobs for Apollo. He still won't give me a raise.:eek:
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[Mar]

I just joined the board last week, and am no expert (though I read a lot on the web). Our 15 y-o mutt (probably some Jack Russell/corgi) started on vetoryl (trilostane) 8 days ago. She's going for monitoring on Tuesday. We didn't see much change for the first few days, then slowly saw less water consumption. Our main concern was continuing incontinence. She wasn't haven't accidents in the house because we were walking her A LOT, but she was waking up in her urine with wet legs and bewildered look. Last night, however, was the first night in many that she woke up dry (and I got good night's sleep). I'm trilled at this solid sign of progress. She also seems happier and more chipper.:)

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

Thanks for the call. I hope our sweet boy can make you smile tonite and pay you back "one good thing". :o

Hold him tight and give him big hugs for us!

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

[MBK]

Dear Sonja -

You take such good care of that little guy! I bet he enjoys having a personal masseuse! I so wish you would get an answer as to what is causing his leg problems. I'm sure not knowing the cause makes it even worse.

Keep enjoying the little things!

[apollo6]

Dear Rene, Mar and Mary Beth
Thank you so much for your posts. The vet said he has another dachie with the same problem. Feels it is cushing myathorpy and best thing to do is treat the cushing. The physical therapy, acupuncture and massage are helping to maintain Apollo has my vet says. Without all of this he might not even be walking. I try to stretch his legs everyday plus the exercises. It gets overwhelming at times. But I love my little guy.
One good thing: I go to church on Saturday and usually take Apollo with me. Last week I left him home because it was too hot. People and a little boy were asking were is Apollo. He has quite a fan base at church. That's my boy.:p
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja,

Thats our handsome boy! His appeal has no bounds. :cool: How did the little fan under the coolaroo work out?

Rene

[addy]

I think it is so wonderful Apollo gets to go to church with you. You will need to get him a Sunday Best outfit. Maybe a collar in the shape of a bow tie. RED!!!!! I could see that, can't you????

Love ya,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Mary Beth, Rene, and Addy
Thanks for the support. My hands do get tired from stretching his legs. I total forgot about puting the fan under the coolras(forgot the spelling). :eek:Thanks Rene.
I took Apollo to the dachshund meet on Sunday. Mom and I and a few people marveled at despite his difficulty walking he went up to other dogs wagging his tail like nothing was wrong with him. Mom and I told Apollo how proud we are of him. A lady who just lost her dachie to bone cancer said she could just see the joy and light in Apollo's eyes. Even when he falls on his face he tries to get up. I love this little guy so much and wish I could ease his pain like you want for your babies.
Some days are harder than others. He tires so easily just walking a few steps. I really have to watch him overheating so easily. The thyroid medicine has not improved his legs. :(
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
p.s Pop contol- Apollo had some water stool again then a firm one.

[Cyn719]

Sonja - I was told the same thing about Penny they think her weak legs are from cushings - trying to keep her weight down - said it might help but shes 82 lbs and really only 5 lbs overweight - do you use supplements? I give her Dasaquin twice a day and when really bad I use the Rimadyl but I really dont like that - nothing seems to work - do the massages help? I am looking into it for Penny - its so nice to hear that Apollo enjoyed himself the other day! Hes a strong little guy for sure!!:)

[Harley PoMMom]

What do you use slippery elm for?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hi Sonja,

Slippery Elm is used for many issues, it coats the stomach and helps to diminish the accumulation of acid in the stomach. Slippery Elm Bark (SEB) is a good treatment for ulcers, gastritis, colitis, and other inflammatory bowel problems. Its mucilage content coats, soothes and lubricates the mucus membranes lining the digestive tract. It is high in fiber, and so helps normalize intestinal action, relieving both diarrhea and constipation. It may also help alleviate nausea and vomiting in pups suffering from non-GI illnesses, such as Kidney Disease. SEB contains many nutrients (carbs, protein, fat, ascorbic acid, beta-carotene, calcium, and trace minerals) that can be beneficial for a dog that is not tolerating food at that time.

Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[apollo6]

Dear Cindy and Lori
Thank you Lori for the information about the slippery elm. Hope the message I sent you helped Cindy. It can get pretty overwhelming at times.
I am not in a good place today. The lose of Rene's , dear Snoopy is hitting to close to home, because I was privileged to meet Rene and Snoopy for one play date. That play date was one of the best days of my life in a long time. Our little angles did their thing, and looking at Snoopy you would not have known the pain and suffering she had already endured. Our little guys for those few hours were happy and enjoying life. They each went to the other Mom to say hi. They knew they were with their own. For those few hours there was no talk or worry about cushings. We laughed, hugged, and just for that moment in time enjoyed the pleasure of each other's company. The prime and proper lady, Snoopy, and the dirty old horny Apollo.:)

We get so overwhelmed by caring for them, did I give him his medication, does he have another infection, is he overheating and panting again, why did he fall on his face again, why is he having such a hard time breathing, then out of no where, the smile, the wag,the look, the lick and it makes it all worth it.
So we need to be in the moment with them. Time is not on their side. They fight with us for as long as they can.
A tribute to Snoopy and the loving , caring mom she had Rene.:o
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[jmac]

Just wanted to let you know how much I can relate to your post about all of the worrying I do, and then the little glimmer of my girl being happy or silly again. It is so hard to balance the worrying with some sort of normal life, and not constantly wondering if I am doing the right thing, or if I could be doing more for her. I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough day with the loss of Snoopy, too. I'm sure it means a lot to Rene that you met Snoopy though, and that you two can share those memories. Just know that Apollo is one lucky little man to have a mom who does so much for him!

Take care,
Julie & Hannah

[Rene]

Sonja you are a very special lady and Apollo hit the jackpot. This could only be the reason why Apollo just parades around, barely walking, but he does.

The light in hes face and eyes is ten times brighter than other pups. When he approaches a group he is like a celeberaty, all the other dogs take notice.

It is such pleasure to watch the little casanova in action! Even Snoopie was taken to him and she is a prude when approached with such forward advances.

I too enjoyed our play date and will cherish the happy memories our little Apollo and Snoopie being taking with one another.

I enjoy stopping by and checking in on our boy. Sometime next week I hope. I am determined to get an elusive Apollo Kiss!

Love, Rene & Snoopie Angel

[apollo6]

Dear Rene
Apollo will be waiting with his stuck up attitude with a warm hug. Good luck if you get a kiss out the reserved old man.
Still dealing with his leg and skin issues. Will talk to vet about antioxidants for his legs? He is trying on another dachie with similar issues. I am open to what ever I can still do for my brave little boy.

Julie & Hannah
Thanks for checking it. It helps.

HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja,

The slippery elm really helped the ol Snoopster with the acid and ulcers. But be very careful with the way you prepare it as to propery hydrate it otherwise it can dehydrate our little guy. Slippery elm will absorbe many times its own weight in liquid thus the stove top method preparation.

I am looking foward to seeing our boy. Maybe I can stop by on Wedsesday or meet at the shores when I am working? Ill call.

After Snoopie passed I wanted to ask you if you wanted have a girl's trip and to drive to Show-low with the boy. I just don't know now with my hubby.

Love Ya,
Rene & Snoopie Angel

[addy]

HUGS AND LOVE AND THINKING OF YOU AND APPOLLO

absent in posting but heart and thoughts always present!!!!

love,
addy

[apollo6]

Dear Rene and Addy
Thanks for the support.
latest update from my notes. trying to figure all of this out:
September 20, 2011
Discussion with Dr. Feinberg
1. Weight gain 2 lbs (is this due to thyroid medication or inactivity, seems to be getting pot belly again, or due to cortisol going up?)
2. infection still on back face, some hair is growing back on black skin(black tar like substances comes out of black dots then hair is able to come through)
3. Would like to try “Select Antioxidant for dogs” to improve muscular skeleton function and for arthritis pain also for inflammations. Think already on an antioxidant: Cell Advance 880.
4. Wants to continue with Solixine, thyroid medicine to see if helping thyroid?
5. No improvement with legs or infections on thyroid medicine for one month.
6. next ACHT stim ,sex hormones , also thyroid test within one week or two after being on thyroid medication to see if thyroid reading are within norm, if sex hormones have improved(muscle wasting) and if cortisol is increasing again(last one was in July 2011.

[Cyn719]

Please post on what the dr says - hope you get some answers!! Prayers love hugs and kisses!!!!!!

[mypuppy]

Hi Sonja,

As Addy, I too wanted to send you and your precious little boy all my good thoughts and healing prayers.

Let's not forget the TIGHT hugs......:)

love ya both.... Jeanette and Princess

[Rene]

Hi Sonja,

I have some supplements I would like to bring you from Snoopie's bag of tricks that really helped with her muscle wasting. They are antioxidiant and immune support. Your vet can take a look at and approve or not. Ill give you a ring tomorrow.

Love Rene & Angle Snoopie

[apollo6]

Dear Rene
Thanks for all the stuff. Waiting for Apollo's next ACHT stim/thyroid test. Feel his hormones are out of wack and cortisol is going up.

Will keep you posted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

I hope Apollo's next stim is good. When does he go? How are you doing ? I hope you both are doing okay. Zoe send licks to Apollo and Koko still has his eye on Karma. He is wondering what move to make:D:D:D:D:D:D

I hope you week is not too hectic. I did not get to have a Sonja's Super Sunday Drink but it was our daughter's birthday and we thought we would do something other than cake so went to the new bakery. They had just pulled a beautiful key lime pie out of the oven. It was to die for:D:D:D:D

Love and hugs,
Addy

[MBK]

Hi Sonja -

Just a quick note to let you know I am thinking of you and hoping Apollo is doing well. He is such a little trooper with a HUGE spirit trapped in a little body! He really sounds special. And, he is so lucky to have you fighting right along with him!

Take care.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy and Mary Beth
Thank you for checking in on me. Addy can you send some of that lime cake through the computer, my mouth is drooling.
Wish I could say Apollo is doing better. He is having more and more of a difficult time walking and even getting up. I wish I knew what is causing all of this. He still has the large spots on his back and the one on his face is starting to grow hair.
In therapy he stumbled a few times and his hind legs seem weaker. But the little guy has spirit.
One Good Thing: His physical therapist brought her dog, Riley to work(think a collie/mix) Well it was love at first sight for Apollo. He was smelling Riley all over, tried to get on his back and snuggle him behind his ears.Mind you Riley is 5 times Apollo's size. It looked like Riley was saying"Mom get this thing off my back"! We were laughing so hard how he just wanted to be with Riley.:)Maybe he is trying to say, Mom I am still here and very much alive and dealing the best I can with my disabilities. It is so hard when I read all the posts and feel Apollo has all these issues. I think of Rene's Snoopy allot. Apollo will be 13 , Oct 12th. He gets the tests on Oct 13th. I need to celebrate his birthday with some joy.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[apollo6]

Apollo is struggling more and more with all four legs. I get his test on Oct 13th the day before he turns 13. I keep praying God will give me a little more time with him. The skin issues have not resolved themselves either. I have been picking on the spots to squeeze out this black tar like substance to get the hairs out. I am obsessed with it. I keep thinking if I can get it all out and his hairs come back, I am squeezing the disease out of him. I need to stop picking on his spots. It gets tough at times.
One good thing: Celebrated my Mom's 80th birthday today , went to the ocean and we all, including Apollo seemed to enjoy being outside.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Sonja-
I just wanted to say how sorry I am that Apollo is having such a rough time. I do think you should stop the squeezing-you might cause an infection.
It's so very hard when our fur babies decline and we seem unable to help them bounce back. Give Apollo a hug from us on 10/14. I'll look to hear the test results.
Take care.
-Susan

[addy]

HUGS, DEAERST FRIEND, THE BIGGEST, WARMEST HUGS, I CAN SEND WITH SO MUCH LOVE FOR YOU AND APOLLO

It will be okay Sweetie, it will be okay.

Love,
Addy

[Cyn719]

Sonja - I know how you are feeling - I really do - I just had that awful scare with Penny - I am her anytime you need to talk vent whatever - I am also sending BIG HUGS to you and Apollo and praying for good news on the 13th -- That is why I have to start the shots with Penny and I cannot get her off the Rimadyl - when I take her off she cant walk I put her back on she can - I know its a tough medication but I feel I dont have a choice - I hate not choices!!! Her for you!!!

[apollo6]

Dear Susan, Addy and Cindy
Thank you all for your support. Family in town will check in after Monday. Went to holistic vet yesterday. Go once a month, feels cushing signs are coming back: pot belly, panting, overheating, skin liaisons, legs not getting better, muscle wasting. Feels sex hormones if elevated even more causing skin problems(the black spots) and the leg problems. Will get sex hormones also tested to see. I am worried if the TRilostane is causing the sex hormones to go up even more, that I will have to consider Lysodren. I am praying no.
Wait till test results to decide next step. Apollo will be 13 years old on October 12th and on October 13th we do the tests. I want him to have a good birthday.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Apollo will be 13 years old on October 12th and on October 13th we do the tests. I want him to have a good birthday.



Me too, Sonja, my dearest wish is for you both to have a wonderful birthday celebration next week.

Love,
addy

[apollo6]

Thank you Addy.

[apollo6]

Apollo will be 13 on October 12th. He started is cushing journey over 22 months ago. It has been a tough ride, filled with tears, heart ache and hope.
One Good thing. Somehow Apollo climbed up the stairs to get in the bed. I don't know how but I am amazed. His legs have not gotten better. Tomorrow go for the ACHT STIM and thyroid test.
Still has the skin infections.
But just for October 12th, there will be no cushing only celebration of my little boy.

Happy Birthday Apollo
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Spiceysmum]

Happy 13th Birthday Apollo.

Hope you both enjoy your non-cushings day!

Linda

[addy]

Happy Birthday Apollo



Wishing you a day filled with treats and belly rubs and rides in your stroller.


Love,
Addy, Zoe and Koko

[Harley PoMMom]

Happy 13th Birthday, Apollo!!!!

Sending huge hugs with lots of love, Lori

[jmac]

Happy birthday, Apollo! Sonja-I hope you have a wonderful day with your little man!

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy 13th Birthday, Apollo!

We hope you and your mom have a very special day!

Hugs and belly rubs,
Leslie and the gang

[ShannonJ92]

:D Wishing Apollo a happy 13th b-day!! :D

~Shannon

[labblab]

Very Happy Birthday wishes from me, too!!!!!!
:) :p :D :) :p :D :) :p :D :p :) :D :)

Marianne

[Nika'sMom]

Wishing Sweet Little Apollo a Very Happy Birthday!!!!!!!...and sending many hugs to you Sonya
Lynda

[Rene]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTaC3RQ4exCiw30GIswt3tPjjzBDzsjJ 1Rr0pdmFz4Mcygv6cubag
HAPPY BIRTHDAY APOLLO!!!

[Cyn719]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY 13TH BIRTHDAY DEAR APOLLO
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sonja - Hope you two had a great day - sorry im late - I has tests today - just waking up ----

So BIG HUGS AND WET KISSES TO APOLLO FROM PENNY:) XO

Will be thinking of you two tomorrow - love and prayers all goes well!! xoxo

[frijole]

Happy Birthday Apollo! I am sure your mom is spoiling you rotten. I hope you got the steak we mailed to you :) Love, Kim and Annie

[apollo6]

Thank you all for the birthday wishes. Apollo gives you all licks and tail wags. Apollo got a star, paw cookie and a special granola mini cake. You know me, got to make sure it is healthy also. You don't know how much it means when one of our cushing babies can celebrate a birthday.
I could not do it without you.
Thursday we go for Apollo's Acht stim, sex hormones and thyroid test.
Love to all of you.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[rbeasl]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BIG GUY..... HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT DAY!!!!!!


Rhondalyn and Honey

[bgdavis]

Happy Birthday, Apollo! Hope your testing goes well.

Bonnie and Angel Criss

[Roxee's Dad]

Happy Birthday Appollo, I hope you had a great day :)

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

Sounds like Apollo had a great birthday! I hope his tests go easy and the results are good! Judi

[Cyn719]

Thanks Sonja for the pic comment!! yup she is a ham for sure!!! Wish she still looked like that or at least didnt have the stressed look in her face now - so wide eyed and stressed:( Really dont know how we can make it till wed!!!

So how is Apollo since his birthday?? Did he party to much:D? Hope all is well or in our cases as well as can be!! xo

[apollo6]

Thank you so much for your birthday wishes. Apollo thanks you with barks and licks.
Some good with the bad.
Apollo throw up yellow bile on Oct 10th, but had empty stomach, so gave him some treats seems better. Today he had a watery, mucus, red( a little blood) for a stool this morning.(his diet has been crazy and not on schedule with my family visit last week and I gave him some of his birthday donut last night) This afternoon his stool was still watery but a little more consistent. So my alarms are going off. But he has an appetite and is still very bright eyes. This disease is awful.
One good thing: Even though Apollo can hardly walk anymore. Last night he made me get up twice to lift him off the bed and he wait all the way into the kitchen and his doggy door to go to the bathroom(he hasn't done that in 6 months) and a few days ago he got on the bed by himself.( I have no idea how he got up the stairs). My little boy is trying so hard.
Bless all of you and our cushing babies. Despite the set backs, the disabilities they try so hard right to the end.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

I am sure our little boy will feel better soon. Stress from family visits can give bad poos too.

One good thing for me: Zoe and Koko had the best wrestling match. I was amazed at how long they played and Zoe's eyes were shining.

Keep the faith, sister in battle.

love you,
addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Thank you so much.
Still mushy poops, with mucus, but he still is bright eyed.
Second night woke me up twice , but him down, went outside by himself to go to bathroom through dogie door.:D Hasn't done that in 6 months.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Cyn719]

How we enjoy the little things like going out through our doggie door!! I know that feeling - the two weeks Penny felt good she played with her favoite brown bear!! Hasnt done that in almost a yr!! Hope Apollo feels better each day!! Hugs coming to you and Apollo from me and Penny!!!!!

[Bailey's Mom]

Happy belated birthday to Apollo!
I'm sorry he is "off" his usual self.
Bright eyed sounds pretty good to me!
-Susan

[rbeasl]

Sonja

Your little guy is just one BIG fighter... I know that he fights so hard because he feels love and has a great Mom... I taught Honey a new trick, it is call say your Prayers and he puts his little head down for about 5 seconds.... So me and Honey will be praying for you and Apollo....

Hang In There

Rhondalyn and Honey

[apollo6]

Thank you all for your well wishes, Addy, Cindy & Penny, Susan, Rhondalyn and Honey.
The results of one of Apollo's tests:
Thyroid: T4 Post 2.5(low) was 1.15 range should be 3.-5.
(confused because on last test should case specific is 1.20-3. and general range is .8 to3.8?)
Hopefully next week results on Adrenal panel and acHT STIM from Tennessee.
Since Monday dealing with Apollo having mucus and limp stool. Vet said could be mild case of pancreatitis from excitement and disruption of his normal diet when family was visiting.
It seems like we put out one fire and another starts somewhere else on their body.
Sometimes I wonder what other damage the medications can cause.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Hi Sonja,

I'm a bit confused by the different references ranges too but if you use either one, the result would still be low or low normal. What did your vet say about that?

What medications do you think is doing damage to Apollo?

[HarrysMom]

Have you considered giardia or other parasites (bacteria)? My dogs get this from sniffing poop, etc., and the symptoms are loose, mucusy and bloody poop. Has your vet done a fecal? Might be worth putting Apollo on Tylan powder before jumping to pancreatitis. Bloody poop usually indicates large intestine issue, not pancreatitis.

[addy]

A friend had a pup with irritable bowel. Whenever they had company, the pup would get bad poops.:eek: Hopefully Apollo is getting better by now.:) I think Apollo has a history of pancreatitis, doesn't he?:o

Hang in there sweetie.

love,
addy

[apollo6]

Dear Glynda, Harry's Mom and Addy
Thanks for checking in on me.
Gynda; Apollo is on Trilostane and now the thyroid medication which has increased his thryoid count.
previous
t4 1.15(was .7) 1.20-3. .80-3.80
this time
Thyroid: T4 Post 2.5(low) was 1.15 range should be 3.-5.
Harry's Mom- Apollo had one morning with mucus a tiny bit of red tots and very light red. Then the next few days mucus soft stool, today morning solid, after noon green mucus soft, tonight firm stool. ?
Dear Addy thanks for all the support. Wish I could say things are better. Apollo falls more, all four legs give out now.
I did get results on the adrenal panel and acht stim
NEW WITH OLD
CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 21.7 WAS 23.5 (was 45.7) NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 61.3 WAS 61.4 (was 71.5) NORMAL 70.6-151.2

ANDROSTENEDIONE NG/ML BASELINE 5.09 WAS 3.03 (WAS 4.08) NORMAL .05-.36
POST 7.36 WAS 3.92 (WAS 6.78) NORMAL .24-2.90

ESTRADIOL PG/ML BASELINE 68.7 WAS 63.4 (WAS 69.9) NORMAL 23.1-65.1
POST 72.6 WAS 73.9 NORMAL 23.3-69.4

PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.44 WAS 1.21 (WAS 1.45) NORMAL .03-0.17
POST 3.44 WAS 3.19 (WAS 3.13) NORMAL .22-1.45

17OH PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 3.67 WAS 1.82 ( WAS 5.68) NORMAL .08-.22
POST 7.95 WAS 5.95 (WAS 16.8) NORMAL .25-2.63

ALDOSTERONE PG/ML baseline 17.3 WAS <11.0 ( WAS 39.5) NORMAL 11-139.9
POST 65.1 WAS 96.3 (WAS 66.9) NORMAL 72.9-398.5
RESULTS INDICATE PRESENCE OF INCREASED ADRENAL ACTIVITY(MODERATE)
Notes with doctor:
Went to Dr. Feinberg/Governor today because Apollo screamed when I tried to bend right hind leg after therapy and last night when I tried to do stretch. One on the skin liaisons is on the spinal cord. Today I squeezed a lot of blood out of it. Dr. Feinberg did not seem to concerned. Did biopsy of blood and skin liaison to see if deeper infection. As you can see the cortisol is within range, but low on second reading. Sex hormones have gone up. 4 of 5 elevated. Dr. Feinberg says the Trilostane may have caused that . But he is not for starting Lysodern because of the serious side effects and other complications it could lead to and what if the sex hormones are not the cause of his leg and skin issues?
I am wondering if stopping the Trilostane for a month to see if skin and leg issues may get better. Also Dr. Feinberg gave Apollo another shot of Convenia –antibiotic to see if this will help him at my asking( I hope I did the right thing) Also friend gave me Vietra Science =-Olive Extract to use and some other supplements . As suggested by many considering adding Slipper Elm Bark to Apollo's diet. Wondering if need to simplify Apollo’s diet again with less supplements due to intestinal issues. Had one good solid bowel this morning (green could be greenie ate last night) then a green mucus coated bowl then tonight a solid bowl.
Legs are getting worse and skin infections not healing, now some new Calcinosis cutis's on his back.
I am worried what to do next. Dr. said disease is progressing.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Sorry have not posted for the new comers. I am beside myself about Apollo.

[Rene]

Dearest Sonja,

Whew...a lot of information. I know that had to be exhuasting for you. Thank you. I hope our veterans chime in with some answers to your questions and give you a feeling on what the change in all the numbers might mean.

I'm sure you will continue to do what is best for our little man. Your sound decisions have gotten him this far :). You are sweetest mom and Apollo looks at you with nothing but love in his eyes.

With much love,
Rene & Angel Snoopie

[jmac]

Sonja-

It sounds like there is a lot going on with your little man. I'm so sorry there is so much to think about. I know it doesn't help a lot with how you are feeling, but Apollo is so lucky to have a mom that has done so much for him. He knows how much you love him and do for him, and so do all of us. When Hannah hurt her back and they mentioned acupuncture or physical therapy, I thought of you right away and how much you do for Apollo on a regular basis. Hannah got acupuncture three times and we were able to make that work out without much trouble (on two teacher salaries), but it would be difficult, if not impossible, for me to maintain care like that on a regular basis. I think it is wonderful that you are able to do so much for Apollo.

It is so hard to know what to do when there are no real answers. I am sorry to hear the vet feels that things are progressing. I wish I could offer you more advice on what to do, but unfortunately, this is all beyond me. I will keep you and Apollo in my thoughts and prayers, and I'll check in often. Thanks so much for checking in on us as well. I really appreciate your support.

Julie & Hannah

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Sonja-
I am so sorry that Apollo is having such a rough time. You probably feel like you're in the middle of a tornado with all the tests and results.
I am thinking of you and Apollo. I hope things will settle down a little for both of you.
-Susan

[addy]

Hi Sonja,


the next few days mucus soft stool, today morning solid, after noon green mucus soft, tonight firm stool. ?

It sounds like whatever was bothering his system regarding the poo is slowly getting better. I remember one of your vets said he could have a bit of pepto bismal. That may help his stool or you could just keep being very careful what you feed him. Sometimes an acute colitis flare from something they ate can take a few weeks to get stool back to normal. The pepto can turn his stool black if you give. I thought you had given it to him in the past.

Love,
addy

[apollo6]

Dear Susan and Addy
Thanks for the input. Apollo had a good stool this morning, walked a little more than usual. I have given his Pepito bismol in the past. He still falls on his face and at time all legs give out.
One good thing. Apollo walked.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Based on his test results wondering if I should take him off the Trilostane for a while and concentrate on the sex hormones by increasing the melatonin and lignans. Just feel my back is against the wall as to what to do next.

[Cyn719]

Sonja - I am sorry for what you are going thru with Apollo - maybe Apollo could use a little trilo holiday -- but I know its hard to make that decision - Penny is on a pretty long holiday - not sure when she will go back or if she ever will - its so hard when you are between a rock and a hard spot for sure !!! - good sign that Apollos stool was better this am - keep me posted -- Love and Hugs to both of you!! XO

[apollo6]

Thanks Cindy and Penny

[labblab]

Based on his test results wondering if I should take him off the Trilostane for a while and concentrate on the sex hormones by increasing the melatonin and lignans. Just feel my back is against the wall as to what to do next.
Hi Sonja,

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking that you already tried stopping Apollo's trilostane for several weeks last winter in hopes it would improve things for him, but it really didn't. And so the decision was to restart the trilostane in order to control further, ongoing damage caused by elevated cortisol.

I am so sorry that that you are caught in such a tough place right now. But if it were me, I probaby woudn't stop the trilostane again. Apollo's most recent post-ACTH result is equivalent to 6.13 ug/dl, and that is definitely not too low according to the Dechra's standard therapeutic recommendations for a dog taking trilostane.

The thing is, it is pretty much a certainty that extended exposure to uncontrolled, elevated cortisol will cause damage. It is not nearly so clear whether elevations in other intermediate adrenal hormones will cause problems for any given dog. So once again, if it were me, I'd be more concerned right now about making sure that Apollo's cortisol remains under control. And if Lyosdren does not seem like a good option, then I'd stick with the trilostane.

From the test results that you've given, I'm not sure that Apollo's thyroid level is yet where you want it to be. And if not, I'd keep working on that rather than stopping the trilostane. I truly cannot tell for sure from the thyroid results that you've given. What does your vet say about them?

Marianne

[apollo6]

Dear Marianne
Thank you for your input. You are right. I talked to one of Apollo's vets agrees to keep on Trilostane and also Solivane for thyroid. We have decided to take Apollo off all supplements for 1-2 weeks to give his system a break. Thank you.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo
As Rene said Dr. Oliver said focusing on controlling the cortisol or sex hormones is difficult, because both do damages.
Rene and others have suggest slippery elm for his digestive tract. Please advice how am I supposed to use. Boil forgot to ask how much in boiling water, then simmer? let cool but in re-frig in container and give one tablespoon a day.

[ShannonJ92]

While I don't have much advice to give as I'm just too new to this and haven't even made med decisions yet in my Pebbles' case I just wanted to let you know that I will be keeping you and Apollo in my thoughts and prayers. This is all so complicated and we do the best we know how or feel comfortable with for our beloved furkids. I will check back when I can for updates on Apollo and hope to find he is doing okay.

~Shannon

[apollo6]

October 26,2011
Dr. Feinberg called on results on skin scraping on Apollo’s back. Staph bacterial infection, concerned why inject able antibiotic not clearing up infected tissue because may be other problem-Cushing, aging, breed dachshund.
1. Could do biopsy –put under (no!) or do mild sedation.
2. Have dermatologist exam to see why antibiotic not clearing up infection.
3. Either Dr. Stuccki-Veterinary Specialty Hospital or Animal Dermatology Clinic-Dr. Monica Board ph. 858-560-9393.
So off to another specialist. Wish I had a money tree.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Cyn719]

Sonja - I know it never ends -- If I find the money tree I will share it with you!!! $204 quoted today for ACTH test at new IMS and 65 for exam and ?? for the stay and needles and ??? ugggggg - Apollo and you are in my thoughts each and everyday - I understand what you are going through - BIG HUGS TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[addy]

Hang in there Sonja, almost time for a Sonja Super Sunday Special.

Just a few more days.:D:D:D

Sonja- Dr. Oliver's quote to me was that the high intermediate hormones "appear" to do the same thing as high cortisol. Key word there was "appear" from his studies.

Are his poos normal now? How many times a day are they normal? If you start with the slippery elm please remember it can affect the absorption of other drugs so you have to wait 2 hours. I think Kim gave Renee the recipe otherwise PM Lori, she knows. IMO if his poos are normal now, I would wait, you stop all the supplements and then add a new thing, you don't know cause and effect. IMO don't do 2 new things at the same time, you wont know what is happening. So if his stool is better, discontinue supplements for now and wait on the elm.

Just my opinion,
love,
addy

[Rene]

Hi Guys,

Yep...it was Kim and Lori who got us started on the Slippery Elm, thank you ladies.

I got the same opinion from Dr. O. He believed Snoops elevated hormones were probably just as much to blame as the cortisol for the loss of her gall bladder and spleen. That was why we chose to treat with Lyso.

Sonja...Staph...really! The little I know is Staph can be secondary to allergies. The first thing that poped into my head was carpet cleaner. Gene's Arnie cat had allergies that made his hair fall out that we just could not pin down. Only after I stopped using carpet cleaner and switched to that "free" laundry detergent and fabric softner did it stop and his coat grew back in thick and lush. He never scratched or itched his hair just fell out especially around his neck and tail.

Just a thought. :o

Rene & Angel Snoopie

[Harley PoMMom]

Rene and others have suggest slippery elm for his digestive tract. Please advice how am I supposed to use. Boil forgot to ask how much in boiling water, then simmer? let cool but in re-frig in container and give one tablespoon a day.

Here's an excerpt by Jean Hofve, DVM on Little Big Cat website:
To give internally, mix about 1/4 teaspoon of Slippery Elm bark powder with cold water for every 10 pounds of body weight. For very small dogs, it is fine to use the same 1/4 teaspoon dose.

Author Anitra Frazier gives the following recipe for Slippery Elm Bark syrup in her book, The New Natural Cat, which applies equally well to our canine companions when adjusted for weight: Into a small saucepan place 1/2 cup cold water and 1 teaspoon powdered slippery elm bark. Whip with a fork. Bring to simmer over low flame, stirring constantly. Simmer 1 or 2 minutes or until slightly thickened. Cool and refrigerate. Keeps 7 or 8 days. Give a teaspoon of syrup (5 cc) for an average-size cat (again, about 10 pounds) 5 minutes before a meal to minimize diarrhea, or to soothe and heal mouth ulcers.


Hope this helps.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[apollo6]

Dear Cindy, Addy, Rene, and Lori
Thanks for the input. I am mourning the lose of our Corky as we all are. I hope Terry has friends to comfort her. I prayed that if Corky could make it , maybe there would be some hope for all of us.

As to Apollo , it never ends. Legs are getting worse.
I will hold off on the slippery elm until I see the specialist. His poops are solid-3 times a day.
The skin infection is a coagulase positive staphylococcus spp.
Aerobic culture: abundant growth of gram positive organisms
conjulase postive staphylococcus app. -abundant growth
final report: staphylococcus schleiferi subsp. coagulans.
This is all Greek to me.
Will be seeing dermatologist specialist Tuesday. Nervous.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo
Each day is previous with our fur balls.

[addy]

One good thing today- 3 good poos for Apollo!!!!:D:D:D

Don't be too nervous about Tuesday, it will be okay sweetie. I'll go with you:):):):) Heck, we'll all go with you, I get the front seat and Apollo!!!!

Love and hugs,
addy

[jmac]

We'll be thinking of you, Sonja! Try not to be nervous. Hopefully they'll have some answers. Let us know how the appointment goes. And the three poops are certainly good news! It's tough sometimes to find the positive, I know. You and Apollo will be in my thoughts...

Julie & Hannah

[Cyn719]

Hi Sonja - You know Apollo is in my prayers every nite!!!! Hopefully things will go good at the appointment - good that he is going solid everyday - My Penny is still going soft and all she is eating is rice and chicken?? Ok I am coming for the ride to the vets tooo!!!!!!:D That car is going to be pretty crowded with all of us!!!!:D xoxo

[ShannonJ92]

Move over everyone... I'm coming too! Just adding my support to the bunch. Best wishes to you and Apollo on Tuesday.

~SHannon

[apollo6]

Dear Addy, Cindy, Shannon, Lori,Julie, Rene.
I'll make room in the car for all of you. Love you all.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
P.s. all the dogs can sit with Apollo in his car seat. What a picture that would be.:D
Sometimes we have to laugh despite the tears and pain.

[rbeasl]

Sonja,

Im in the back holding on to the bumper with you guys... Your little guy will be fine... he is a fighter...

Take Care
Rhondalyn and Honey

[Bailey's Mom]

Hi Sonja-
Just wanted to let you know I am here and am keeping in touch.
How old is Apollo and what breed is he?
-Susan

[Squirt's Mom]

Sending our best wishes to you and Apollo!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[apollo6]

Dear Susan, Leslie and Rhondalyn and Honey
Thank you for your support.
Apollo just turned 13 is a mini smooth haired dachshund.
Will keep you posted.
Always praying for you and your fur balls.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Rene]

Sonja & Apollo,

Just checking in. Thinking about you guys.

Rene & Angel Snoop

[addy]

Do you have the car keys? Are we ready to go?

Love,
addy

[Bailey's Mom]

I'm hanging onto the front bumper.......PLEASE allow plenty of room from the car in front of you!!!:D
-Susan

[jmac]

Hi Sonja-
I'm just stopping by to see how Apollo's appointment went today. You had lots of us thinking of you! I hope your little guy is doing okay today.

Julie & Hannah