Apollo fought with grace and dignity to the end, My little angel warrior [Archive] - Page 3 - Canine Cushing's Information and Support Forums

apollo6

01-20-2011, 12:11 AM

thank you all-Linda, Kim and Jo & Bob
I talked to my accupuncture holistic vet about the test results, said the B12 shots a good idea. Had me do the first one on Apollo in his office. I am to give him one shot a week for 6 weeks than once a month. I am to give him shot in back of his neck.
Also said wouldn't hurt for IMO to do ultrasound on Apollo abdominal to check intestines, liver , other organs.
The liver enzymes are up and other readings are up due to Cushing coming back with Apollo off Trilostane.
Will talk with IMO as to putting him back on Trilostane, original dosage or the increased one. I did notice off the Trilostane have not seen the jaw trembling. But hind legs are not improving and has problems with front legs now.:( But like I said on Sunday he climbed up several stairs without me looking. He is a determined little man.:)
I have not had a diagnose for SIBO? yet. :confused: Don't know what it is.
Making appointment tomorrow for the ultrasound. Like you Jo , the vet bills keep piling up and our business is failing. So I am very stressed.
Sonja and Apollo

Squirt's Mom

01-20-2011, 01:10 PM

58. January 13, 2011- DR. Hart review of tests: liver enzymes up again 50 %, compelling changes, kidney value normal, a muscle enzyme is elevated (muscle atrophy)
G.I. TRACT- 2 COMPUNDS –folate bacterial-small intestines , Vitamin b 12 deficiency? Back parts of the intestines, both folate levels are subnormal- intent not absorbing nutrients, diagnose maybe be inflammatory bowel disease- no symptoms of vomiting or diarrhea. Interpretation: consistent with distal small intestinal disease, EP1 or small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Check TLI to rule out EPI. Consider cobalamin supplementation. Second reading consistent with disease affecting the proximal small intestine. Could be allergies, infection, or cancer –bottom of list. Pancreas in normal range. Problem in small intestine-observation suggest ultrasound of abdominal cavity, check liver, etc. G.I. Functions -to give VIT B12 INJECTIONS IN SERIES ONCE A WEEK, THEN MONTHLY INJECTIONS. Also do FIBSCOPE (endoscope) of small intestines.

Hi Sonja,

The above result is where we are getting the SIBO. SIBO = small intestine bacterial overgrowth.

Some links with info on small intestine disorders, including SIBO:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23313.htm

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2580

http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/Diseases/GI%20disorders/small%20intestinal%20bacterial%20overgrowth.htm

http://www.dogaware.com/health/digestive.html#

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

addy

01-20-2011, 02:37 PM

Thinking of you dear friend and saying a prayer your business works out. You must be so stressed. Small intestinal bacteria overgrowth (SIBO) can be helped with the B12 shots and/or Tylan antibiotic. If that is what little Apollo indeed has. We thought Zoe had it but her gastro panel came back negative. Almost wish she did have it so I would know what to do:rolleyes:

I'm hoping the B12 helps Apollo:) It is a good thing.

We are here if you need shoulders. We have plenty of shoulders and mine are very strong to lean on.

Love you,
Addy

apollo6

01-22-2011, 08:04 PM

Apollo started weekly injections of B12. Monday Apollo goes for ultrasound of abdominal. Praying all is well. Tired of all the tests. Apollo doesn't want to walk at all. I have to force him to walk even a little. He seems only comfortable in the house. He falls on his front legs now also. Will talk to IMO about restarting Trilostane maybe at original dosage of 10m.g. when on the 12.5m.g. throw up twice, don't know if it was the compounding formula or the higher dosage. Feel his symptoms are coming back, increase thirst,increased urinating, bloated stomach, seems tired all the time. Is it age? Muscle atrophy? Arthritis due to his back problems? I feel so angry:mad:overwhelmed:(. In one year Apollo's legs kept getting weaker. So off Trilostane since December 4th and really no improvement in his walking, is walking like a snail so slow if at all. Still not throwing up, still eating going to bathroom.
Yet he is a determined little man, will climb up on couch and head rest when I am not looking. So hear I am wishing for a miracle and trying to do the best I can for my little guy. It hurts when people tell me I should get a puppy to replace Apollo. I am not ready to give up on my precious boy.
Sonja and Apollo

addy

01-23-2011, 10:06 AM

Oh dear Sonja,
I sure do not know why someone would be callous enough to tell you to replace Apollo with a puppy and give up on him but if it were me I doubt I would be able to remain civil to them after a comment like that:mad: They just do not understand the bond you have with Apollo. Just pay them no mind. Remember when I felt badly that friends were making comments on how much money Zoe was costing me? You told me to put it out of my mind and not pay them any attention. These comments deserve the same reaction from you.;)

Maybe it would be good to discuss with vet about seeing how the B12 shots go and then restarting the trilostane. With Zoe I can never do 2 new things at once.

I remember a thread here of a beautiful dog and his mom and dad, can't remember the name but the pup could not walk much anymore so they had their stroller and felt he still had a quality of life. They had such beautiful photos taken of them every year on the pup's birthday. Do you remember?

My mom can't walk much anymore she is 87. We used to pick her up and take her places and do things with her. She can't do those things anymore so we adjust. We can still spend time together and I feel sad sometimes that I can't take her out like I used to but at least we are together. We just spend our time together differently:)

Hugs,
Addy

apollo6

01-23-2011, 04:27 PM

Dear Addy
Thank you so much for the support. My heart goes out to you about your mother.
My mother is dealing with a lot of pain, two bad knees, one knee replacement, the other a past femur break with a rod that causes her a lot of pain. Like you said we adjust . Life is always changing and we do what we can for the fur balls and the ones we love. That is all we can do.
We need to acknowledge the good days and the awe moments as they come.
Sonja and Apollo

Isnthebeautiful

01-26-2011, 03:09 AM

I agree with Addy there - i know folk look at us like we are mad keeping Bob but they dont live with him and see the good times and the quality he has.
And you're right Maddy about doing 2 things at once -you cant tell whats working or isnt but we seem to be a bit desparate and just want to try everything too soon because maybe we feel we dont have the time to wait.
Bob stumbles and doesnt want to walk much at all but he sits with us and travels everywhere with us and is stimulated by this.And i can tell Apollo has the same quality so you are doing the right thing.
regards
jo

addy

01-26-2011, 09:03 AM

Will post on my thread what results of ultrasound and what IMO said.
Let's just say I was sobbing in the parking lot. I need to regroup , I don't think Apollo has inflammatory bowel disease. He doesn't have any symptoms.

Dearest Best Friend,

Is everything okay? Why were you sobbing in the parking lot? What happened at the IMS?

Love,
Addy

Squirt's Mom

01-26-2011, 11:15 AM

Me, too, ....what Addy said....came to see what had you so upset and to see if we can help. Please talk to us, honey. You know you have a safe place to fall here...we all care about you and sweet Apollo very much and are here for you no matter what.

Hang in there, honey,
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

apollo6

01-26-2011, 03:19 PM

All my angles-Addy &Zoe, Jo, and Leslie and Girls
will try to post what IMO said. I am still trying to write down notes I took.
Notes from the IMO:
Discussed lack of changes on ultrasound in intestines to explain weight loss (Apollo was 10.6 down to 10.47-he is exposed to a lot of stress from me, and before starting the Trilostane in June 2010 he had lost some weight was down to 9.4 lbs.)(but his adrenal glands have changed left was 7.0 now 9.6mm and right was 6.9 now 9.1mm, why are they more enlarged? ) and low folate and vitamin B serum levels.( have started the B12 injections once a week since January 18th-doing them myself and like Addy says wait for the 6 weeks to see how he does before restarting Trilostane- I am so overwhelmed and confused)
Suggested next step of upper endoscopy for small intestinal biopsy.(cost $1,800.00-Mom says no way and husband says no to such an intrusive test) If not pursued could try novel protein source diet, continue vitamin B supplementation and could switch current pro-biotic(already taking Rx Biotic from Rx Vitamins Inc.) Other option would be treating with immunosuppressive med (steroids which would worsen Apollo's Cushing’s- part of my crying) for possible IBD realizing we don't have a definite diagnosis. Owner to consider options. Apollo is eating, not vomiting, no diarrhea, stools vary each day but has a few good stools each day, alert, but seems to tire more easily. I just read in my prior notes that the hind leg weakness started end of May 2010 before I started the Trilostane. Apollo on Trilostane June-Nov 2010.
Now the results of the Ultrasound:
Liver: overall liver size is mildly enlarged with rounded margins. There is diffuse increase in echogenicity with a mild diffuse parenchyma appearance. There are no focal hepatic lesions.
Spleen: Normal echogenicity
Gallbladder: Normal size. Common bile duct not seen.
Left Kidney: Normal size with mildly irregular margin. Mild reduction in corticomedullary differentiation with thickened hyper echoic cortex. Normal renal pelvis.
Left Adrenal" Normal shape with increase in thickness at 9.6mm (was 7.0MM)
Right Adrenal: Normal shape with an increase in thickness at 9.1mm (was 6.9mm)
Bladder: only minimally distended. Diffuse mild wall thickness measuring up to mm.
Pancreas: No abnormalities in area of pancreas (that is an improvement)
Intestines: Random loops of bowel examined and have normal wall thickness and layering pattern. NO focal bowel lesions seen. (So what is wrong?)
Other: No masses, as cites or lymphadenopathy.
Assessment: Diffuse, hyper echoic and heterogeneous liver-consistent with a vacuolar hepatopathy.
Mild chronic degenerative renal changes.
Mild bladder wall thickening R/O iatrogenic form inadequate distention.
I will have to look up all the medical terms, because it is all Greek to me.
I feel like they are trying to find more and more things wrong with Apollo. Yet when he had the lump on his tail I spent about $400.00 in tests to have it resolve itself in the end and it is no longer there.
So that is why I was crying so hard in the parking lot.
Any encouragement and input would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I am back to square one with Apollo's alignments and conditions. But his coat looks great; his skin infections are almost gone. The stomach gurgling is back, but stopped after on the Trilostane. The jaw trembling has stopped since not on Trilostane. It is so confusing.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

missbeagle

01-26-2011, 03:57 PM

Sonya -

Are you giving any of the following to Apollo - marin, denamarin or milk thistle? They can help with his liver enzymes. My Rusty's are also elevated (as of 1-21-11 ALT is 175 and AlkPhos 481), and I'm giving him denamarin which seems to help with his values. But the Cushing's is gonna make them rise anyway. I think the denamarin keeps them in check. The two liver enzymes to look at are ALT and ALKphos. The meds do not require a prescription and can be ordered from the internet according to body weight.

Has your vet given you any antibiotics for his bacteria in his intestines? Or are they bent on the endoscopy? (I probably wouldn't do that either).

The term hyper echoic has to do with how the ultrasound pings off of the internal organs. Try this link

http://www.veterinaryradiology.net/146/what-do-hyperechoic-and-hypoechoic-mean/

Ultrasound terms:

Hyperechoic – more echogenic (brighter) than normal
Hypoechoic – less echogenic (darker) than normal
Isoechoic – the same echogenicity as another tissue

Also, have you tried to help Apollo to walk by putting a long towel - like a beach towel under his belly and kinda pulling up to help him along?

His insides aren't as bad as you think. His bloodwork shows his kidneys are doing OK just as his blood sugar level.

A bacterial overgrowth isn't going to shop up on the ultrasound unless he had something growing on it. Kinda like you can't tell I have an upset tummy until I let out a big burp.

Maybe you can ask your vet about some yogurt? Rusty loves his and that might help with the tummy.

Sonja - when I re read your post I noticed it says endoscopy with a biopsy. That means they want to take a piece and send out to look at further. If they do think it's bad bacteria in his tummy, I don't see why they would want a biopsy done. It doesn't make sense to me.

Keeping you in my thought tonight -

Gretchen and Rusty in NC

addy

01-26-2011, 08:32 PM

Okay, first off, the IMS's comment about the steroids to treat IBD of which you do not have yet a diagnosis I think is what the IMS say for their standard IBD blurb. Zoe's told me the exact same thing. So don't you shed any more tears about that, it probably won't ever happen.:)

I want to make sure we have this right: Apollo threw up here and there after you increased his trilostane. He has been having on again off again, regular to loose stool whether he is on trilostane or not, he was losing weight but then stopped losing weight when you put him on trilostane, He is losing weight since you took him off the trilostane. He had pancreatitis a while back before treatment?
His Folate and B12 are low.

Sonja, it would appear that SIBO is a possibility. You treat that with B12 shots and also Tylan. Hopefully others will be along to review the test results and give their input. The weight loss could be the Cushings.

Sweetie, you do not have to do the endoscopy, they push for that so they can get a biopsy and then it takes some of the guess work out of the treatment plans. Though I have read of people going through that and the pup still has problems------. If you don't want to do it, then just say no and move on.:cool:

I am a bit brain dead tonight so can't comment more than this but I think after we hear from others, you will have a plan. Then you will feel better. You are going through so much right now, I wish I could make it all better for you.

Sending gazillon hugs to you and sweet Apollo. It will be okay.:)

Love,
Addy

apollo6

01-27-2011, 04:04 PM

Dear Gretchen and Rusty, Apollo is already taking Milkthistle and I give him yogart every day and he takes a pribotic supplement. Will look into Denamarin. The vet did not mention anything about antibotics for Apollo. I use Apollo's harness for support to help him walk. But then in the house he will walk to were every I am at to be with me. It take him longer but he does seek me out sometimes. It make me feel good when he does.:)

Dear Addy and Zoe
I don't even know what SIBO is well have to look into. Apollo also gasps for air if I make me catch up to me while running. He gets winded more easily. I am going to email Dr. Allen at Decha about if it is okay to restarting the Trilostane at the original dosage, while dealing with the intestinal issues. But like you said he doesn't have any of the signs associated with this disease. And you are right about saying no to the endscopy. And he was loosing a little weight and had the stomach gurgling before I started the Trilostane last time around.
Love to you both
Sonja and Apollo

addy

01-27-2011, 09:40 PM

When I talked to Dr. Allen about Zoe being on metronidazole and having Colitis he said I could start Triolstane but the colitis was controlled with the metronidazole so maybe that is why he said okay.
I sent him a copy of Zoe's adrenal panel and explained the colitis. He suggested I start at 1 mg per pound and round down for Zoe. I explained I was worried about gastro upset. He thought it would be okay.

I emailed him as you suggested so it would be worth it for you to see how he feels about Apollo. It is helpful to get opinions. I asked him for his thoughts, and I asked Dr. Oliver from UTK too.

For me personally, I wish I could talk to someone who went through treating a pup with colitis with either lysodren or trilostane. I would just feel better about it.

Saying prayers for you.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

01-28-2011, 09:05 PM

will email Dr. Allen over the weekend.

apollo6

01-29-2011, 08:30 PM

I have emailed Dr Allen at Dechra with my question about restarting the Trilostane. I also sent a copy of his recent tests and IMO notes. Today is not a good day for Apollo. He is very bloated, made him walk a little. I don't think he is feeling very well. Very sluggish. Also started panting the other day when the temperature was 70 degrees. I am so worried.
Now dealing with the intestinal issues.
copy of what I sent Dr. Allen
Want to restart but intestinal issue has been notated.

Dr. Allen, I apologize for such a winded email. I feel if you can see the most recent test results, you would have a better understanding if it okay to restarting the Trilostane and see if the intestinal issues improve.
Please see below. I think his Cushing symptoms are coming back. The hind leg weakness did not resolve itself as I had hoped. Now falling with front legs also. Still walking but very little. I just read in my prior notes that the hind leg weakness started end of May 2010 before I started the Trilostane. Apollo on Trilostane June-Nov 2010. He has been off Trilostane from Dec 2010 to the present January 29, 2011
I have copied his most recent test results below and what my IMO notes are. He has no problem with me starting on the original dosage of 10mg. which Apollo seemed to do well on. But says the intestinal problems and muscle problems are separate issues?:eek:
Apollo is eating, not vomiting, no diarrhea, stools vary each day but has a few good stools each day, alert, but seems to tire more easily. His coat looks great; his skin infections are almost gone. The stomach gurgling is back, drinking more, Apollo is bloating again after eating, his liver enzymes are going up,but got better after on the Trilostane. The jaw trembling has stopped since not on Trilostane, not sure if it started with the compounded formula, and think with compounded formula was throwing up three times. It is so confusing.
Will have to wait over the weekend. My heart goes out to Addy dealing with conflicting information.
Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

01-30-2011, 12:12 AM

Sorry for posting so much.
Apollo had accident in den today, so I know the cushing is coming back. :(My friend at church said I looked sad today. :( My husband says don't give up the ship yet.
So I will try to take off Sunday.
Sonja and Apollo

addy

01-30-2011, 09:02 AM

I hope you hear back from Dr. Allen Monday so you know what to do. I think he is going to say go back on the trilostane, but we will see, maybe I am wrong.

Love you Sonja,

Addy

HarrysMom

02-02-2011, 05:17 PM

Sonja,
I just read your internist's report (have been too busy with Harry's diabetes to focus on Cushing's - so have not been on this site much).
Two things I've read was vacuolar hepatopathy and renal degeneration with age.
Vacuolar hepatopathy is extremely common among dogs and has no symptoms and adverse impacts. You will see elevated liver enzymes, and many Cushingoid dogs will have ultrasound show vacuolar hepatopathy.
I had Harry on Denamarin, but for some reason, (I could be imagining this), since Harry's rear end gave out, Sam-E in Denamarin seems to worsen his rear end weakness. So, now I just give him Marin (milk thistle).
I have two cats with age-related renal issues - the key thing with kidney is limiting phosphorous in diet. Have you looked into aluminum hydroxide as phosphate binder? My cats have done really well on it - I buy the powder from thrivingpets.com. Odorless and tasteless - you mix with food.
There are other immunisuppressing drugs than corticosteroids - my other dog, Amy, was on Imuran which did not have steroid side effects. However, this is an extremely powerful immunosuppressing drug, and you want to make sure that there is no chance that Apollo has any bacterial / yeast/ fungal infection anywhere on his body (SIBO woud count as one).

My thoughts are with you. You are such a devoted dog mom.

Yunhee

Squirt's Mom

02-02-2011, 05:27 PM

Hi Sonja,

Have you heard back from Dr. Allen yet? I hope he has some ideas and good news for you.

How is our sweet boy doing today?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

Bichonluver3

02-02-2011, 10:04 PM

Dearest Sonja,
The experts are here so I will let them speak but I wanted you to know how badly I feel that you are so upset. You have been so good to me that you should know we are sending all kinds of love and healing energy your way. Give the little guy a hug and tummy rub from us. Will be watching for updates. Please do not cry alone. We are always here for you.
Love,
Carrol

apollo6

02-03-2011, 12:04 AM

Thank you all
Yunhee and Harry, Leslie and the girls, and Carol
I am still waiting for reply from Dr. Allen. I just feel so lost has what the next step is. Apollo is getting the bloating back, stomach gurgling, had an accident in house a few days ago, had to wipe his seat after a bowl movement. Wonder if the intestinal issues relate to the cushings? Has no signs of SIBO. Now reading about renal degenerating or what ever. I am very overwhelmed. The stress of our business problems is not helping.
I will re email or call Dr. Allen Thursday.

Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

addy

02-03-2011, 03:06 PM

Sonja, I just had a thought. Did you start Apollo on the Standard Process we talked about? I just thought that perhaps if you did, could it be possible it does not agree with him and it is causing him to bloat and be uncomfortable?

Just wondered.

Addy

apollo6

02-04-2011, 07:22 PM

Dear Addy
Thanks for the input. I am really not sure. I know he had the bloating last time before starting Trilostane.
I am posting what Dr. Fertig from Dechra said to him. Dr. Allen is on medical leave.
I am asking if it is okay to restart Apollo on the original 10mg. despite the intestinal problems.

First of all, is Apollo receiving Trilostane in the form of Vetoryl (Dechra’s brand) or compounded Trilostane? See below I said he was originally on 10mg. doing fine other then hind leg weakness.
What is his dose? I said he started on 10g. Was doing fine, other than hind leg weakness. Then he was put on 12.5mg. Compounded to see if leg problem would resolve itself. Confirmed with Dr. Allen if okay to do so and see if helped. , did not. Threw up on higher dosage

Why was Trilostane discontinued from Dec 4-Jan 29?
Then asked if stop for a few weeks to see if hind leg weakness due to Trilostane. Again I confirmed with Dr. Allen.
Was it due to gastrointestinal problems? NO Diarrhea? No something else? ALREADY stated hind leg weakness.
See below tests. NO he does not have diarrhea. He has somewhat varied stools, sometimes hard, yellow, sometimes dark, sometimes soft. He has not thrown up since off Triostane.

It sounds like some of his clinical signs are improving, such as his skin infections. Yes, I already said so, but off Trilostane, stomach gurgling starting up, thirstier, and see below increased liver enzymes.

One reality about dogs with Cushing’s syndrome is that they are usually older dogs. And they often have another problem along with Cushing’s, such as kidney, heart or liver problems.
I am not sure if this applies to Apollo, but if his liver enzymes are continuing to rise while on Trilostane, perhaps he has another liver disease present?
Again misinterpretation, I said off Trilostane liver enzymes are going up, not on Trilostane. Please read my original email below.

Cushing’s itself can cause some liver changes, but those should show signs of improving when the Cushing’s is controlled. On the Trilostane he was improving.

Soft stool can be due to many causes, including Trilostane, but this should improve unless he is intolerant of the drug.

Once again misinterpretation, I am saying this is occurring off Trilostane.

Has his diet changed? Does he receive table food?
No his diet is not changed; he gets a low fat simple diet, no dog food. Based on Vets recommendation, has been on this for over a year.

I am not sure why his jaw would be trembling, unless he has some uncomfortable feeling in his abdomen, or perhaps he has a degree of arthritis present?
I said the jaw trembling stopped when he was off the Trilostane.

In conclusion, I am trying to say would like input to restart Trilostane in hopes intestinal issues will resolve self. He does not have any symptoms of inflammatory bowel disease.
Input
February 4, 2011
Talked to Dr. Fertig
Said with intestinal issues, continue b12 and whatever else is needed to resolve the problem.
Apollo may have osteoarthritis due to back disc issues. May need non steroid anti-inflammatory medication.
No reason not to put back on Trilostane, restart 10mg.

Would appreciate input.
Sonja and Apollo

addy

02-04-2011, 08:59 PM

Hi Sonja,

Was the original 10mgs Dechra product and then the 12mgs compounded? You probably have only 3 B12 shots to go right?

Can you call holistic vet for input? I remember one of the vets said finish your B12 shots and then look at restarting. It may be they change their mind since Apollo's Cushings symptoms are coming back.

It sounds like you feel his gastro problems got worse off the Trilostane and now if Dechra says okay to resume what are your concerns about resuming? You can always stop again. If you resume at 10 mgs you might not see the jaw trembling.

When would you have to have the ACTH? In a week?

Sorry, I guess that is not much unput from me but I thought they would say okay to resume and they did. Seems like you can go ahead with the 10mgs.

Hugs,
Addy

littleone1

02-04-2011, 09:58 PM

Hi Sonja,

If you feel that Apollo was doing better on the Trilo, and you were given the okay to restart it, my personal opinion is that I would restart it. You can always stop it if you see any problems.

Sometimes the more information and input you get can really cause you to doubt alot of things.

Hopefully you will be able to make a decision that will set your mind at ease and do what's best for Apollo.

marie adams

02-05-2011, 12:07 AM

Oh Sonja,

Hang in there!! I think Addy and Terri have the right idea; start the Trilo again and see what happens. It seems like it leaves the system faster than the Lyso would so I would have felt it was safe if it were Maddie.

You are getting all the info and that is a good thing, but don't over think it. I think you are doing a great job and keep it up.

Take some time for you so you are not so stressed.

lulusmom

02-05-2011, 03:29 AM

Hi Sonja,

Are you sure Dr. Fertig was listening to you? It seems to me that he asked a lot of irrelevant questions but luckily, you kept him on track. I too had thought about the possibility that Apollo may have a disc problem that flares up when cortisol is reduced, causing the hind end weakness you saw. Didn't you have Apollo checked out by a neurologist or orthopedic specialist at some point? If so, can you remind me what they had to say?

For what it's worth, I agree with the other gals and would restart at 10 mg and if no adverse reactions are noted, I'd have a stim done at 14 days.

Glynda

P.S. Tremors are documented as a side effect of Trllostane so the trembling jaw could be due to Trilostane. You'll be able to determine this once you start treatment again.

apollo6

02-06-2011, 01:14 AM

Dear Addy,Glynda,Terry, and Maria Adams and our brave little and big fighters.

thank you all so much for your input.
Addy like you said I can start and observe Apollo. I am suppose to see my holistic vet Feb 16th. I feel like it is an eternity. I called but he is booked, so I can't get in earlier.
Terry and Glynda- Apollo does not have jaw trembling off the Trilostane but does on it.
Apollo does have back disc problems on 5,6,7. He was seen by the same neurologist over 6 years ago, and has accupuncture to help. So maybe the hind leg weakness is arthritis and the muscle wasting is making it worse. The neurologist said it is muscle atrophy not related to cushing. His last blood reading did show CK was getting worse which relates to muscle disorder.
Maria Adams thanks.
I am getting to much information. One says try the Lysodren, but I think I need to restart the Trilostane sooner because Apollo is bloating again, just like before the Trilostane, his breathing is labored, and he has stinking gas now.:eek:
I am panicking and thinking he has every disease there is muscle atrophy, inflammatory bowel disease, even though he doesn't have symptoms. :eek::eek:
I feel like every time I go to the IMO more tests and finding more things wrong with Apollo. I left my last visit pretty upset as you know.
So Apollo has 2-3 more B12 shots to go. I think I forgot one week, I am so stressed out.:eek:
If start Trilostane within a few days because I need to order and may new prescription from IMO. He felt starting TRilostane is separate issue from intestinal problems. His attitude this time made me feel off balance this time, so I wonder if I should go back to regular vet and work with him and the holistic.:confused:
Will keep you posted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

02-06-2011, 10:27 AM

He felt starting Trilostane is separate issue from intestinal problems. His attitude this time made me feel off balance this time, so I wonder if I should go back to regular vet and work with him and the holistic.

Which one did you feel helped you the most so far? Which vet is most comfortable for you? Which vet do you trust? Go with your gut, dearest friend, wise advice I was given (from you;))

Love ya,
Addy

Bichonluver3

02-06-2011, 12:28 PM

As Addy said, who do you trust? This relationship with your vet is like a marriage - you have to have trust in them. If you just worked with your vet, he could work with the IM vet as well as others. Maybe working with just 1 person would lessen some of the stress. Please try to relax a little - you know...the deep breathing thing:rolleyes:. we worry about you. All this "figuring out stuff"!! Maybe we all should have gone to vet school or maybe we are there now!
Love,
Carrol

lulusmom

02-06-2011, 01:03 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm trying to figure out your list of pros for starting treatment again and cons. Can you give me a list for both so I don't miss anything? Vetoryl has a short half life so if you see any adverse reaction at all, you can do like last time and stop dosing and he should rebound quickly. The only thing that might not apply to this is the rear end weakness. If Apollo gets weaker on Trilostane, it may be that Apollo's arthritis or disc problems are going to become painful once the levels of cortisol is reduced. That's what happened with my Jojo and he ended up on Metacam but I try to limit it to his bad days.

Glynda

apollo6

02-07-2011, 06:18 PM

dear Addy, Carrol and Glynda

Dear Carrol -maybe we should have gone to vet school. All this information and figuring out is overwhelming me.
Last time I went to the IMO as you read I was taken aback by his attitude, very clinical. When I asked how long does Apollo have , would not answer me, ignored my worry. I need a little compassion. My holistic vet has been very kind and listens to me with all my questions. My regular vet DR.Feinberg is not in the loop so far. I did see him in October to let him know about Apollo's cushing. He has only gotten copies of the reports so far. He has worked with my holistic vet in the past.
My dilemma : I feel I need to check with vet maybe my regular vet to restart Trilostane and set up the next ACht Stim test with him if he agrees to monitor Apollo's health and Cushing disease. And when it gets difficult then go to the IMO.
I just felt the two specialists(IMO and Neurologist ) , are adding more conditions that might not be there-muscle atrophy, IBD and on each suggesting tests which each cost over $1,800 and are vary invasive- muscle electrophy test with sample of Apollo's muscle tissue and the endoscopy into his intestinal with scraping sample of that. I do not see any reason to do so. And Apollo has always had back disc problems. But how do you test for arthritis ?

When I had the last set of tests. NO one did an ACHT STIM test to see what Apollo's cortisone level is off the Trilostane?
A good example was all the test done on Apollo when he had the lump on his tail. I spent $600.00 in tests( needle aspirations) . My holistic vet said leave it a lone and let see what happens. Well it resolved itself with no additional test.
So Glynda, I wonder if I should see my regular vet then start the Trilostane letting him know all the issues and then set up the appointment for the follow up tests to see how he is doing on the Trilostane.
The pro
he was stable on the 10mg.
skin issues resolving, belly turning pink again(was dark)
coat growing back
liver enzymes going down with many other readings.
drinking less
Con
hind leg weakness started when on Trilostane(or maybe the overproduction of cortisone masked this issue)
jaw trembling on Trilostane
but the negative is what is causing the intestinal problems?
have read other owners took off TRilostane after long use because wasn't working or caused other problems?
Apollo today: gets winded easily, doesn't want to walk, had a few pee accidents in the last few weeks, gets bloated, has a lot of gas now, drinking more, stomach gurgling sometimes, elevated liver enzymes which related to muscle disease, and other reading elevated, hind leg muscle weakness and sometimes falls with front legs now.

So I emailed the regular vet to see if he would be okay handling Apollo's cushing and other health issues. Waiting.
So what do you all think?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
P.s. having lots of computer issues so hope I can read your responses.

lulusmom

02-08-2011, 05:44 PM

Hi Sonja,

If you've had Apollo seen by a neurologist, I would think he would have ruled out arthritis as a cause right away. If not, manipulation and x-rays can usually detect arthritis.

If Apollo was doing well on Trilostane and you don't know if Trilostane was the root cause of his problems, I'd definitely consider restarting at 10mg. Be sure to follow proper protocol and get the stim tests done as recommended so if issues should crop up, you'll at least be able to rule out low cortisol as a factor.

Glynda

Bichonluver3

02-08-2011, 07:43 PM

Hi Sonja,
Looks like Glynda has given you good advice. I hope your vet agrees to work with Apollo and his Cushings. If not, maybe you need to find a vet you feel comfortable with and who is acquainted with Cushings. It does not serve you well to have to rely on professionals who add to your worry. Let us know what vet says.
Love,
Carrol

addy

02-08-2011, 09:04 PM

Hi Sonja,

Hopefully your regular vet will work with you and the IMS. Maybe you won't get the jaw trembling at 10mgs. You did see it at 12mgs, I remember you posting about it.

Maybe he needs his cortisol to run alittle higher so staying on the 10mgs once a day to start seems reasonable.

Hope you hear from the vet soon.

Sending lots of good vibes and hugs and hopes things get settled for Apollos. I know how hard it is for you with everything else going on.

Try to do something fun to burn off all the stress. I know, you could start working on another drawing;)

Love,
Addy

apollo6

02-09-2011, 09:24 PM

Dear Gynda, Carol and Addy
Lost post typed to you all. First thank you for your support.
Spent all weekend trying to save computer. Today had to call computer tech. I need my harddrive replaced. Took with him:eek::eek: All my data-work, Apollo info, etc on it .:eek: Pray I did not lose all my data. :eek: Have to have everything reinstalled. Won't get back until Friday and I will still have to reinstall other programs I have. Will be behind in work. Also Apollo just fall down alot. :( Barely walking at all. :(Have appointment with regular vet on Tuesday to go over and restart Apollo on Trilostane 10mg. asap. Also Wednesday appointment with holistic accupuncture vet to go over leg weakness and if should change diet because of intestinal issues. Doing all this on my laptop. Wish I could give support to all the new members right now.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
behind with everything, worring about Apollo, etc. Will keep you all posted. Thank you
sorry for spelling mistakes.

littleone1

02-09-2011, 09:35 PM

I know you are really going through alot right now, Sonja. I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers that there is a light at the end of the tunnel for you and Apollo.

Hang in there my friend. You're doing everything you can possibly do.

(((HUGS)))

lulusmom

02-09-2011, 09:37 PM

Hang in there, Sonja, and don't worry about anything here. You've got your hands full and we've got you covered.

Hugs,
Glynda

addy

02-10-2011, 10:31 AM

Saying prayers things starts to turn around for you Dearest Friend.

Love,
Addy

Bichonluver3

02-10-2011, 12:39 PM

Dearest Sonja,
Now it is time for us to support you (warm hug here). We are thinking of you and watching for your next update. Did you see the holistic vet yesterday?
Lots of love & hugs

Rene

02-11-2011, 01:36 PM

Sonja,

I saw this post by Harleys mom's Lori when I was researching rear end weakness. It mentions L-Glutamine addressing the muscle weakness, gut problems and bladder issues. I though about Apollo.

"Vet steroids are definitely a no-no when dealing with muscle atrophy and a Cush-pup, what you may want to try is L-Glutamine, but please ask your vet first.

Here is an article about L-Glutamine: http://www.scribd.com/doc/23752319/Role-of-Glutamine-in-Health-and-Disease"

Hugs to you and Apollo,
Rene & Snoop

apollo6

02-12-2011, 12:32 AM

addy

02-12-2011, 10:40 AM

Dearest Sonja,

Sending hugs and kisses and whatever else that is warm and fuzzy. I am saying prayers too that you will find the right path.

I keep telling myself to get an alternate back up but have not yet done so:rolleyes: I sure hope you did not lose everything and they can retrieve it. That is a stressful problem especially with payroll looming.

Try to give yourself a break, you can't be all things even though we all try to be superwomen. Give your self permission to not do something. Today I gave myself permission not to clean the house:D Only problem is, I have given myself that same permission for 2 weeks:eek::eek::D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh well, it is only dirt.;)

I am trying to telegraph the best possible vibes to you and hope you can feel me zapping you with them!!!!!!!

Love,
Addy

frijole

02-12-2011, 10:56 AM

Sonja, Just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and sending best wishes and strength. Kim

Cushpup

02-12-2011, 12:22 PM

Dear Carrol ,Rene, Addy and Terry
Feel like I am out of the loop. I have been dealing with having to have my hard drive replaced,and not knowing if my data can be saved. I am talking about business, personal, pictures, school and all of Apollo's notes, etc on cushing. I have been trying to work on my laptop. But printer doesn't work well with it.
I am reading at a glance so many new ones to our site. Also new ones saying problems with Trilostane.
Can't see regular vet until Tuesday, and holistic on Wednesday. Then don't know if I will get my computer back by Monday, and then if my data is lost I have to recreate a lot and a lot lost, then payroll is on Wednesday, don't know if have funds.
I am so overwhelmed, worried about Apollo, he is eating well, but I think he may have lost a little more, and then he is bloated after eating. Trying to get through weekend , because next week will be a challenge. Wish I only had my baby Apollo to concentrate on. I have taken time to just go outside with him and run around with a treat to make him walk a little.
Wish I could be more positive. You are all on my mind, praying your fur balls are doing better.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
sorry about spelling don't have spell check .

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I'd like to contribute a little that I know about Cushings, Hypothyroid and my experience with my dog. I find many posters information wonderful for getting different perspectives to see what ails your own pooch.

I am a having similar experience with my dog in terms of digestive problems for over a month. The difference is that mine has off and on loss of appetite (mostly off). If mine had just digestive problems I would try a tablespoon of a good brand plain yogurt twice daily. It shouldn't hurt him. If you see that he's worse, stop it. I read the begining of this thread and didn't see similarities until you're recent posts.

I will be seeing an internist Wednesday so hopefully I'll get a different perspective about my dog. My gp is top notch, but he admitted to me that he doesn't know that much about Trilostane. He is quickly getting eductaed with MY dog.

Have you checked Appolos Thyroid? Many of the Cushings symptoms and Hypothyroid overlap. Even Diabetes has some of the similar symptoms. When my dog seemed to be 'getting old and a potbelly' I had her tested for everything. When we first put her on Trilo and Soloxine for Thyroid she was having like full blown symptoms of Cushings/Hypothyroid/ and possible Diabetes. I recall telling my vet that she wasn't so bad BEFORE the meds, other than looking like she was aging, but NOW I have a full blown Cushing dog...a rollercoaster of symptoms, and scary.

Anyway, when I described some weird things (I don't recall all of them. There may have been some facial twitching once or twice)the muscle weakness, the thirst, the appetite decreasing, the legs shaking, the legs givng out when I walked her, the vet was pointing to a possibility of one or all three of these diseases, as they are the ENDOCRINE SYSTEM, and all related. All these symptoms did not happen daily and I didn't panic...It took 4-6 weeks to stabilize, and then she was doing great, until now with the start of pancreatitis, and whatever is still going on. I had been underdosing her with Trilostane. I'm not saying that the lack of Trilostane is causing these symptoms, but I'm not sure what is. I increased the dose yesterday so we'll see what happens. I can tell you that she is more allert today, so far. She walked very nicely this am. We'll see what happens between today and Wednesday when I go get my second opinion by an internist as what is going on with the inappetance and digestive issues.

As far as arthritis goes, you can see it on regular Xrays. That was my specialty in people medicine ;) The spine and the hips are very easily seen on Xrays, unlike the soft tissue organs. My vet says that some bloodwork can point to arthritis, too. I'm not sure what gets elevated, though. Dach's tend to have back problems because of their long bodies. Although Cushing/Thyroid dogs may experience the leg shaking, as my dog did...and her back and hips are normal.

Hope that helps.

apollo6

02-12-2011, 06:31 PM

Dear Addy, Kim and Cushing pup
Thanks for the support.
Not looking forward to next week with computer, getting it back trying to reload programs had. The worst is I never did a recent back up and I can't remember how many programs I had. It is in God's hands.
I am having information overload about my baby, Apollo. His walking is almost none. Now he has problems with his front paws. I am questioning myself about going to regular vet. Do I go back to specialist? Going to holistic on Wednesday anyway. A lot of my questions input were on my old computer so will have to wing it.
1. gurgling stomach
2. now front leg (hard time getting up) and stiff back legs-do x-ray to see if arthritis, do blood test to see or is it not being on the TRilostane. Now I blame myself did I do the right thing taking him off the TRilostane.
3. do I do more testing on his intestional issues or try a different diet? He is eating ,not throwing up, and has regular but not consistent bowel movements, but now has awful gas.
4. continue the vitamin b12 shots.
5. restart Trilostane and do followup test to see if Apollo's reading improve and go back to regular vet or specialist
6. should I even bother with a ACHT STIM test before I restart the TRilostane.
7. Apollo's coat looks great, no hair loss. Just confused.
Cushing Pup , thanks for the input about the TRilostane. Originally Apollo was on from JUne 2010 to Dec 4,2010, doing well but maybe the increase although minor was not good. Specialist even said at time if not for the hind leg weakness would have kept him at 10mg. and the jaw trembling was when Apollo was on TRilostane but I can't remember if it started with the higher dosage. In summary, Apollo did get better on the Trilostane. So maybe in writing this I have my answer. Hope doing the right thing going to regular vet.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

02-12-2011, 09:17 PM

Hi Sonja,

You saw the jaw trembling at the higher dose. The leg weakness was on the 10 mgs but I thought you said you found in your notes that he had trouble with his legs before you started trilostane. Look back through your thread and maybe you will see. I will look through my messages from you if that helps.

You thought his intestinal problems improved with the Trilostane but I remember you posted about his poos being inconsistant on the Trilostane. His leg weakness did not improve.

I hope this helps you remember.:) Don't second guess yourself. You were uncomfortable and very upset with the IMS.

You have so much to deal with right now. I wish I could help. Gosh Dearest Friend, I wish I could do something for you. If you need to talk, call me, don't feel funny about it. I am always here for you no matter what or when.

Saying prayers,
Love,
Addy

Cushpup

02-13-2011, 08:51 AM

Sonjia,

For whatever its worth, recently I took my dog off Trilo just for 3 days and her hind legs started shaking on the third day.

Have you checked her Thyroid?

Years ago my sister had a dog with similar symptoms like yours. She had to carry her dog outside. She doesn't remember all the things, but there was some hair loss. The dog couldn't stand up. She had the front leg lamness....it was Cushings and Thyroid.

Squirt's Mom

02-13-2011, 11:44 AM

Hi Sonja,

Since some of what you saw in Apollo is shown to be possibly connected to the Trilo itself - trembling, weakness in particular - why are you not considering switching to Lyso? He has certainly been off the Trilo long enough to do this. I haven't looked back to see if he has tried Lyso prior so pardon me if that is where you started and now feel Trilo is your only option. Trilo will not work for every dog just as Lyso will not work for every dog - some pups just cannot handle one drug but do fine on the other.

It seems to me if you have so many concerns about what was caused by the Trilo and what wasn't, why go back to it?

One of your questions is whether or not it is necessary to do an ACTH before putting him back on treatment. A major factor in answering this question is what Cushing's signs you are seeing NOW - excess peeing/drinking, cush appetite, hair loss, dark skin, thin skin, panting, lethargy. If you are not seeing strong signs now then, yes. you need an ACTH before putting him on any treatment - Trilo or Lyso. If his signs are raging, then you would be fairly safe in not having one.

I hope you don't lose any info from you old system. :eek: The wonders of the modern age, huh? ;)

Keep your chin up, sweetie.
Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

apollo6

02-14-2011, 02:10 AM

Dear Addy, Leslie and Cushpup
Thanks for all your input.
I think I read in my notes that the hind leg weakness was before on Trilostane. But to be truthful, I cann't rememeber and hopeful when I get my computer back I will be apply to get my folder on Apollo.
Apollo symptons right now are the front and back leg weakness, he does try to run when I give him treats. His coat still looks good, his skin is still pretty good. His water intake is going up somewhat and he is bloating now. He is starting to get back the pot belly.
On the Trilostane he was improving very well other then the hind leg weakness.
The more I try to rationalize all this information the more stressed I get. Tuesday is when I go to the regular vet. I only have one pill of the original 10mg. left. and a whole new persciption on the 12mg.
It doesn't help dealing with the harddrive crash, seeing that maybe in less than a month we have to close our business. So I am not really thinking to clearly. It may take 2 days to get the computer stuff straighten out then a week to try and get back old documents or hopefully my recent files, payroll, etc.
I will try to reread your posts.
I am dealing with front and back leg weakness, intestional issues, awful gas. I have to pray and see what the regular vet says on Tuesday and the holistic on Wednesday about his diet, and what the next step is. So to answer the question, Apollo was doing good on Trilostane. It is the hind leg weakness that I don't know what to do about. And I think Apollo starting keeping his weight stable on the TRilostane. It has been 9 months and I just can't remember. I did not have the SIBO test when Apollo was diagnosed with Cushing. So I do not know if he had this already.
Will keep you posted. I hope I can contribute more to the forum in the future.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

marie adams

02-14-2011, 11:18 AM

Hi Sonja,

I am sorry to hear about the computer problems--funny how we depend on these devices to keep all our records--we now try to download to an external drive, but then not as frequently as we should.:D

Maddie never did improve much with her hind leg weakness. The muscle never really came back, but she was going running a little bit with my husband, just not as far. She never seemed to get back much of her old energy level she had a year and half ago before we knew she had cushings. So for her was it the old age or something we didn't even know she had--maybe. I think arthritis was part of it, but I just don't like x-rays so kept those to a minimum. :o

I know you will have a good week--just keep telling yourself that.:)

Take care!!!

apollo6

02-15-2011, 07:34 PM

Going to vet with Apollo.
Will keep you posted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
The rest of you have become far more knowledgable then myself. I am still green behind the ears.
Sorry about the spelling errors.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

lulusmom

02-15-2011, 08:26 PM

Hi Sonja,

We'll be waiting to hear from you when you get back home from the vet's office.

Glynda

addy

02-15-2011, 08:30 PM

Hi Sonja,

Not sure if that 5:30pm time on your post on my thread is my time or your time.

I know we will hear from you tonight. I'll keep checking and crossing everything I can.

Love,
Addy

Squirt's Mom

02-16-2011, 10:07 AM

Hi Sonja,

Just checking in this morning to see how Apollo is...and you!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

apollo6

02-17-2011, 01:04 AM

Will post tomorrow
I lost the post I had just typed. hit the wrong key:eek::eek:
Drained from two days of vets.
Regular vet just smiled when Apollo looked at him. Says dachie's are fighters and can live to 16 or more. With Apollo's illness will do the best to keep him as healthy as possible.
New tests:Acht Stim( to see cortisone reading) before restart TRilostane
Thyroid Panel-similar symptoms has cushings
x-ray- see how back and legs look since has disk problems
Holistic vet suggest trying Honest Kitchen-Embark(read others on site using) change diet a little. Says hind legs muscle wasting, now front legs hard time walking, falls easily. Says Apollo looks to me and if I give him the wrong message will think something is wrong. He keeps on trying. Says Apollo has multiply athropies. If I was not such a good mom , he would not still be here. Between regular vet and holistic will work as a team to do what is best for Apollo. Said I am doing all I can for him. Don't worry so much.
waiting for results of tests.
His stool is mush, seems like it is getting worse, but will see. When do we stop worrying?
It is late , I am tired, just got my computer back, didn't do half of what I asked, had my brother(Professor of Information Technology) trying to help in Columbus ,Ohio,still having to program and get files back myself.
On a last note, I noted that Apollo had hind leg weakness before starting Trilostane, and had the stomach gurgling before Trilostane. Trilostane helped with the stomach gurgling, urinating, coat, skin, but not the hind leg weakness.
Will post more in next day or so.
Love you all
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Cushpup

02-17-2011, 09:24 AM

addy

02-17-2011, 09:51 AM

Hi Sonja,

I understand that exhaustion from long vet appointments. Take a break if you can, even from the forum and just let your mind coast for a few days. Try to blank it all out somehow then let it come back, the thinking of what to do little by little, in snipets. You are on life overload, dearest friend. Too much stress over so many issues just snowballs the worrying.

You don't have to decide this minute, this day. Breathe in, breathe out, calming breaths to quiet the mind. Calming breaths Sonja. You can think later:)

Apollo is still here. You brought him this far. You have done all the right things and you always will do the right things. Just your immense love of a little dog is the right thing and that is the best medicine of all.

Love you,
Addy

littleone1

02-17-2011, 01:12 PM

(((HUGS))) Sonja. Take some time for yourself, and set everything aside for a day. We all need a break from cushings.

apollo6

02-21-2011, 12:03 AM

Thnak you all for your kind words.
Will post Apollo's test results and notes from doctor.
On the lighter side my mom decided to knit socks for Apollo's cold paws.:p Talk about the love she has for her granddog. I am blessed.:D
Like you all said I need to take a break. I seem to be using Apollo's fireengine red stroller more and more. I do try to get him to walk by running around with a treat.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

02-21-2011, 11:11 PM

will post all of Apollo's results in the next few days. Still trying to grasp that Apollo's ACHT STIM TEST showed cortisone going up, and low thyroid reading. STill waiting for x-ray report.
tired but hear goes.
ACTH RESPONSE
CORTISOL SAMPLE 1 4.5 range 1.0-5.0 (Dec 2010 was 2.5
CORTISOL SAMPLE 2 26.2 HIGH range 8.0 -17.0 (Dec 2010 was 3.3
THYROID TEST
T4 .58 RANGE .8-3.8
FREE T4 .55 RANGE .55-2.32
T3 18. RANGE 30-77
FREE T3 1.6 RANGE 1.6-3.5
THYROGLOBULIN AUTOANTIBODIES
3 NEGATIVE
THYROID LEVELS ARE LOW HERE, AND SUPPORTS THE CLINCIAL SIGNS. The low T3 likely reflects his non-thyroid adrenal disease. TgAA is normal.
Thyroid levels are below expectations for a healthy geratric( at least 1.2 ug/dl for T4 and .07 ng/dl for FT4)
Thyroid levels are too low. Recommend 6-8 weeks Soloxine or equivalent product at .1mg per 15 lbs twice daily, followed by retesting thyroid profile 4-6 hours post-pill to monitor response levels.Dose otimum weight.
Optimal therapeutic response levels should be in the upper 1/3 to 25% above the upper limits of the resting optimal ranges 4-6 hours post -BID-thryroid medication.

Will post what Vet said.
just read about a few dogs not doing well on TRilostane and now I am questioning myself, once again.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

02-22-2011, 02:48 PM

Hi Sonja,

Waiting to hear what vet said. I too had asked our IMS about Zoe's thyroid because she had been border line last year and was on that natural glandular thyroid medication called Armor from holistic vet.

Wondering what your regular vet says about Apollo's tests. Do you think he shows clinical signs of hypothyroid? Leslie had posted the signs on someone's thread. Wish I could remember who.

Hugs
Addy

littleone1

02-22-2011, 06:37 PM

Hi Sonja,

Some of the symptoms of hypothyroidism are also some of the ones in cushings. Corky has been on meds for his Hypothyroidism for 11 years. His level went low before he started taking the Trilo. It was on the low end of the normal range. Now it's at a comfortable level. There are times when the cortisol level is controlled that the Hypothyroid level will be at a good level.

There is information on thyroid diseases in our resource section.

lulusmom

02-22-2011, 07:28 PM

Hi Sonja,

I think there is a typo on the results of the stim. I read it as a post stim of 26.2 but on second look, it appears you may have left out a space between SAMPLE 2 and 6.2. Can you let us know which one is correct?

just read about a few dogs not doing well on TRilostane and now I am questioning myself, once again.

Okay, girlfriend, the key words here are a "few dogs". How about I tell you about a few dogs that did beautifully on Trilsotane? Two of them are my own and I'm sure Terry can tell you how well the Corkster has done. I wish I had a nickel for every time I second guessed myself. That's a lot of years and I think I can safely say that if I had all them nickels, I'd be sitting on my private sandy beach with my wireless laptop writing this post. :D I'll probably always second guess myself but I learned a while back that it's a waste of time to do that with cushing's. So take it from me, a seasoned second guesser, just catch the curve balls as they come and work on a plan of attack. What do you think your next move should be?

Glynda

apollo6

02-24-2011, 10:51 PM

Dear Addy, Terry and Corky( I misspelled your name sorry) and Glynda.
You are the best.
Glynda thanks for keeping me in line. I just got Apollo's medication today and will start the 10mg. TRilostane tomorrow. The vet said to change his diet a little and start HONEST KITCHEN. So far so good. I must be pretty boring to get excited that Apollo had a firmer stool. Even the neighbors checked it out for me. Am I going crazy.
Terry, I am waiting to see how the TRilostane helps with Apollo's thyroid, I need to go back and see his old records how his thyroid was.
Addy thanks for the love and support.
A lot of people are telling me you get what you give out or think. So I really need to work on my attitude. A friend gave me a book "Ask and It is Given Learning to Manifest Your Desires, by Esther and Jerry Hicks(The Teachings of Abraham)
If I look back to September 2009, my journey with Apollo Cushings. I was in denial about it. The signs were there for over a year. I kept on wishing it was a mistake. But know I know this is what it is. I have seen the changes in my little guy , the coat, the skin the legs, etc. The TRilostane has helped bring back the hair, the skin has improved, the legs have gotten worse. But like Addy , without realizing it Apollo and I have adapted to the changes. The ups , the downs.
And Apollo is still here. When he falls , he gets right up, and I cheer him on. Now my neighbors cheer him on when he takes a few steps across the driveway. It is what it is.
The book I mentioned has to do with saying you already have what you want, health, prosperity, etc. The message I am getting is not to see the glass half empty but half full.
I will write what the vet said. My notes are a mess right now. Still waiting about the results on the x-ray.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
P.s. Apollo wore his black socks on Sunday that my Mom knitted him.:o We were laughing so hard when he tried to walk with these strange things on his paws. :but he did try.:)

addy

02-25-2011, 09:34 AM

You should post a photo of Apollo in his socks. How sweet of Mom to knit them for him:D

I think it is good, one thing at a time, wait and see what happens to his thyroid once on the Trilostane.

You sound better. I am so glad you sound better. The hard part is the decision, I think. Once made, we just have to go for it and not look back unless something forces us to reassess.

I hope the Honest Kitchen works out for Apollo. I like the company and I like their food. AND- for you it is local;)

You are doing a really good job, Sonja, caring for your little boy. We are all here trying, trying for the love of a dog, because of the love of a dog. You always do your best for Apollo and always give so much.

That takes courage, my friend, courage and heart.

Sisters in battle,

Love,
Addy

Rene

02-25-2011, 02:25 PM

Hello Sonya and Little Apollo,

Like yours my computer "crashed" and I just got it back today! After I saw this post by Harleys mom's Lori, I posted it on your thread a couple weeks ago. You may not have seen it...it was when you crashed too!

Sonja,

I saw this post by Harleys mom's Lori when I was researching rear end weakness. It mentions L-Glutamine addressing the muscle weakness, gut problems and bladder issues. I though about Apollo.

"Vet steroids are definitely a no-no when dealing with muscle atrophy and a Cush-pup, what you may want to try is L-Glutamine, but please ask your vet first.

Here is an article about L-Glutamine: http://www.scribd.com/doc/23752319/Role-of-Glutamine-in-Health-and-Disease"

Hugs to you and Apollo,
Rene & Snoop

It was news to me (as all of this is) so I though I would give it a try too. Snoopie has muscle wasting and weakness. When standing and fatigued she shakes and sometimes, looses her back end. She still wants to chase rabbits (not much of a chase...more of a stare down) so the exercise keeps her from loosing what she has left.

It has only been two weeks and I think and has been working! She shakes less, looses it less and goes longer. Hope this helps or have you already tried this?

Big Hugs,
Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

02-26-2011, 11:56 PM

thank you all
Dear Glynda -Apollo's second reading on his ACHT STim was 26.2 very high
Thank you Rene for the info will look into. Hope your sweet Snoopy is doing better.
Thank you Terry about the info on hypothyroidism.
The x ray showed no calcification of disks on his back and said no problem in legs?
Said leg weakness could be arthritis, cushing or thyroid issue.
Apollo has ACHT STIM test on March 14th, then after he is on Trilostane for a month from Feb 25th would be March 28 do a new Thyroid panel on Apollo to see if improvement in readings.
Still working on his hind leg weakness, may try the supplement Rene suggested.
I seem to be behind with everything lately.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
p.s. we have a lot of new members. wish it was not so.:(
will try to make picture of Apollo in his black socks.:p

Casey's Mom

02-27-2011, 01:18 AM

Sonja I use L-Glutamine for Casey and have for a year and a half now. She will be 15 in two weeks and runs! She had weakness in her back legs as well so ask your vet it may work for Apollo.

Rene

02-28-2011, 02:52 PM

Sonya,

I am giving Snoop 500mg of L-Glutamine daily. I found it at Henry's. It started working very quickly and we are seeing improvement daily.

How is Apollo doing on the Honest Kitchen Embark?

Rene & Snoopie

addy

02-28-2011, 02:58 PM

Hi Girlfriend,

It looks like you are getting a lot of good advice. I would only chime in to try only one new thing at a time or you will never be able to sort it out.

I am taking these few months wlth Zoe to observe how the metornidazole affects her and what is the minimum dose. If I would start something new before I have those answers, I could not be sure of cause and affect. Now, of course, I probably go tooooooo slow:rolleyes:;)

I hope things are going well with our little boy and with you dear friend.

Hugs,
Addy

apollo6

03-01-2011, 06:06 PM

Dear Addy and Rene and Snoop(finally spelled it right)
Apollo is doing okay. Has been on Trilostane since February 25th.
He is doing well on Honest Kitchen, Embark. But very expensive. He is royal when it comes to taste.
Looking into L-Glutamine.
Addy slow is always better. You can see by isolating one thing at a time.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

03-01-2011, 08:09 PM

I buy the 10 pound box of Embark. It comes out a bit cheaper per serving. It lasts me about six weeks so it would probably last you longer.:) Koko eats about a cup a day, a bit less and Zoe eats 2 tablespoons a day and then I mix 2 tablespoons up for their Kongs- That lasts two days. I mix same amount of water. I know they tell you you can use more water. Zoe does not do as well then.

Have a good week.

Love,
Addy

marie adams

03-03-2011, 04:09 PM

Hi Sonja,

I gave L-Glutamine to Maddie, but I couldn't tell if it worked because I didn't see a big difference in her muscle getting back what she had and she didn't seem to improve in moving faster if this makes sense; so I guess it just depends on the dog. I hope it works....:):)

I hope all is well with you--haven't been on much lately--work gets in the way and tired in the evening. :p

Have a great weekend; I think we might get good weather, but isn't there a storm coming on Sunday???

apollo6

03-04-2011, 04:47 PM

Dear Addy and Marie
Thanks for checking in.
Apollo has been on Honest Kitchen Embark for about a week and is doing good on it. I started L-Glutamine for his legs. I try to bend his back legs and make him walk a little each day. But he falls down easily and doesn't want to walk.
He gets check for his ACHT STIM on March 14th.
Our business is still very bad. We did less in two months then we did in 1/2 month in previous years. Hanging on maybe only a few more months.
I am more confused than every. The IMO called me back and reviewed Apollo's thyroid test. Said it can be very deceiving since thyroid counts can be artificially low with cushings. Agreed on restarting Trilostane on original dosage of 10mg. and see how he does than doing a TSH test to see how thyroid is doing. But I am already going to regular vet. So what do I do. Talk to regular vet about what IMO said. He is less expensive than IMO.

Apollo legs are very stiff and weak. I know his nerves are fine because I pinch paws and he has a good reflex. I started trying to bend his legs a little each day-mini physical therapy.:o
Now I was told about a product called "The Gift of Life" for canine. from Pet People.
This is the website.
http://www.thegiftforlife.com/index.htm
I need to look into before I consider.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

lulusmom

03-04-2011, 07:20 PM

Hi Sonja,

I am always interested in new products that make amazing claims so I checked out the A Gift of Life website. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a list of ingredients so I wrote the company and asked them for a listing as well as some other information about their claims regarding cushing's. I'll report back if I get a response. Here's a copy of what I wrote:

I have two dogs with cushing's are being treated with lysodren and I would like to find an alternative and equally effective treatment. Can I rely on your claim that this product normalizes cortisol and discontinue the Lysodren? Your ad mentions that you conducted scientific studies, research and clinical trials. Were any of these published and/or peer reviewed? Were the dogs included in your studies/clinical trials formally diagnosed with hyperadrenocorticism? Were the low dose dexamethasone, acth stimulation test or urine cortisol:creatinine ratio utilized to determine the efficacy of your product? I've been dealing with cushing's for six years and have taken a proactive participation in my dogs' medical care and I make a point of educating myself on any pill I put my dogs' mouths. Unfortunately I can't find your list of ingredients for The Gift of Life. Can you please provide this information? Thank you and I look forward to your response.

littleone1

03-04-2011, 07:56 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers that everything works out for the best for you and Apollo.

(((HUGS)))

apollo6

03-06-2011, 11:36 PM

:Glynda and Terry
Thank you
Glynda I posted a message on the ingredients on the Gift of Life. I am starting Apollo on it. I do not endorse it. It is up to each person as they see fit. This is not a cure.
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 27, 2007
Gift of Life - Beyond Dog Supplements

"The Gift For Life: Beyond Supplements" is the result of a New Science in Canine Health. "The Gift" contains a unique and exclusive concentrated protein extract of Bioactive Peptides that offer miraculous therapeutic properties supporting true Anti-Aging effects with Cellular Rejuvenation, Vitality and Longevity for Dogs of all ages! "The Gift" fights Disease and Canine Aging by using our exclusive "Cell-by-Cell" Recovery Process. This supports true Anti-Aging effect in Canines by stimulating and balancing the adrenal glands, which can cause positive cascading effects throughout the canine body. "The Gift's" Formula helps the canine body to naturally produce Growth Factors and Peptides that are fast acting and easily assimilated and transported through the bloodstream to their specific receptor sites: Insulin-like Growth Factors-1, 2; Fibroblast Growth Factors; Nerve Growth Factors; Connective Tissue Growth Factors; and Epidermal Growth Factors.

Formula:
Natural, Standardized Stereo-Isomeric, Oligo-Peptide Complex 33 mg. ; Polypodine (Standardized to 99%-hydroxyecdysone) 8 mg. ; IP6 (Inositol Hexaphosphate) 25 mg.

The Gift's all natural formula is fast acting and a very effective ingredient mix allowing for the respective organs to respond quickly to assimilate into the canine body the Standardized, Stereo-isomeric Oligo-peptides and the clinically effective “Adaptogenic” Phyto-ecdysteroid, 20-Hydroxyecdysterone. We guarantee our product is of Human Grade Quality made in the USA. The Gift For Life is processed in a FDA approved facility under strict guidelines from Saint Roch de Vita, LLC.

Servings Per Container:
60 Chewable tablets
Suggested Use:
If your Dog is showing signs of "Progressive Aging", "Injury" or "Disease", follow the instructions on the bottle of one chewable tablet in the morning and one in the evening. For "maintenance" against these ailments, only "one chewable tablet" in the morning is all your Dog will need! All Canines over 90 lbs. should receive 1-1/2 tablets per serving.

Administration of "The Gift For Life™" identifies the following biochemical, endrocrinological and immunological: Regulated the Adreno-Corticotropic Axis:
a polypeptide hormone produced and secreted by the pituitary gland. It is an important player in the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis. (i.e. high levels of Cortisol = Cushing’s disease)
Increase lean Muscle Mass and Strength
Improvement in Depression and Anxiety
Amazingly Decreased Pain in patients with rheumatism afflictions - joint pain / weakness / arthritis
Less recovery time from Exercise and Stress
Thick and wonderful Hair Coat
Increased Ability to Focus with Energy
Improve Sleep Quality
Normalized DHEA: produced by the zona reticularis of the adrenal, it is argued that there is a role in the immune and stress response
Normalized Aldosterone: regulates sodium and potassium balance in the blood
Normalized Cortisol: often referred to as the "stress hormone" Well-being with Calmness in Spirit from a balance in hormone levels supporting true Anti-Aging effects

I am dealing with the weakness in Apollo's legs. I read about making him walk a little each day to keep his muscles from wasting more. I am thinking of looking into physical therapy. Money is a big issue for me now a days. I need to be patient about seeing how Apollo does on the Trilostane. I want a quick fix for my boy.
On the brighter side, I took Apollo to a birthday party for a one year old dachshund-Lucia. Apollo enjoyed himself. Ate a whole dogie cupcake and even the paper.:eek::D Then he tried to hump the same boy dachie and vise versus.:eek: I just looked at him and said are you trying to tell me something.:eek: Today I took Mom and Apollo to the ocean in his red stroller. I did take him out and made him walk a little by bribing him with treats. I just looked at him and hugged him when he walked to him and said I am not giving up on you and you need to fight with me. Next week go for his STIM Test, will ask to look at his x ray and now he has a small lump under one side of his tongue need to have looked at. He still is eating, going to bathroom, and is alert. I worry to much.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

03-07-2011, 02:45 PM

You know him best so go with your gut as you always tell me. If you think the new supplement is worth a try, go for it.

Hoping everything is okay with Apollo and you. Think about you all the time and say a prayer.

Love ya,
Addy

apollo6

03-10-2011, 08:49 PM

Dear Addy , thank you
Dealing with Apollo's legs getting weaker and stiffer.:(:mad:
I don't know what to do . Pray the Trilostane and the supplements will help with the muscle Atrophy. He still is very alert, and very opinionated. :D
I was told to act as if he is healthy, since he looks to me for my reaction. It is tough at times.

I want a miracle, but I know it is what it is.:o
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

mypuppy

03-11-2011, 08:42 AM

Dearest Sonya,

My God does miracles: Psalms 77:14

Prayers going to your precious boy. Xo Jeanette

frijole

03-11-2011, 09:11 AM

Hi Sonja - First off hugs to you both. Second, I just wanted to share that my Annie's hind legs are scary as well. I started acupuncture months ago and we keep experimenting to see if reducing it to every two weeks would work but it doesn't. She gets such relief from it. Yesterday I took her in after 2 weeks and she was wobbly and hadn't been eating. I picked her up and she was so perky, smiling and felt so much better. I just wanted to share my experience.

Other than that... I think the vet's advice is good....try to stay calm and focus on giving her lots of love (not sympathy). I know you have plenty of love to give her. Hang in there and know we are all here for you. Kim

addy

03-11-2011, 09:51 AM

Oh Girlfriend, I am sad to hear Apollo's legs are wobblier. How does he seem otherwise? His poos okay? How are the digestive issues?

One day at a time, take a day off for yourself to get away from the stress.

Every morning I lift Zoe on the bed and kiss her and tell her Happy Morning, I am so glad you are here. I love you. Her little face looks at me and I am able to start the day on a grateful note. We have to take those little moments and be happy for them and try to not focus on the rest, I guess.

You do so much for little Apollo and you do it so very well.:)

Hang in there Sonja, we are all here for you.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

03-11-2011, 08:18 PM

Dear Jeanette, Kim and Addy
Thank you.
Monday go to vet for ACht STim test, then a new thyroid test end of month. Like you all said, take weekend off.
Love you all.
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

03-14-2011, 03:04 AM

Hello Sonja and Apollo,

Got back late last night hope Apollo's test goes well tomorrow. Snoop gets hers also tomorrow, will be thinking about you guys.

Addy asked how Apollo's poos and digestives issues were doing. Im curious too if the new food has helped at all?

Big Hugs,
Rene & Snoopie

addy

03-14-2011, 09:20 AM

Hi Sonja,

I am also wishing you good luck with the stim. Will be thinking of you and Apollo.

Love,
Addy

Squirt's Mom

03-14-2011, 11:11 AM

Hi Sonja,

Thinking of you and sweet Apollo today. Hope all goes well!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

littleone1

03-14-2011, 02:42 PM

Hi Sonja,

I hope everything goes well with Apollo's test today.

apollo6

03-15-2011, 03:54 PM

Dear Rene,Kim, Jeanette, Terry Corky, Addy
Thanks for all the concern.
Apollo's stools have gotten a lot better, more solid, no problem with eating, no throwing up. Still dealing with the leg issues. Waiting for results on the ACHT STIM test. Stomach gurgling a little less. Apollo has always had a good appetite, so no change there.
Going for accupuncture on Thursday, will talk to holistic vet about Apollo's legs. His legs are skinny, weak, wobbly and stiff. But he is a fighter , has good spirits and is very alert and very vocal.
Will keep you posted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

addy

03-16-2011, 02:22 PM

Hi Sonja,

Hoping you may have gotten the results back and hoping you have good news. Glad to hear the Embark seems to be agreeing with our little boy.

Thinking of you and Apollo.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

03-16-2011, 11:22 PM

Dear Addy
Thank you for your caring and all of you.
Hear are the results of Apollo's ACHT STIM
Cortisol SAMPLE 1 5.3(HIGH) range 1.0 -6.0 WAS 4.5 ON 2/12/11
CORTISOL SAMPLE 2 8.0 range 8.0-17.0 WAS 26.2 ON 2/12/11
first is higher then before but second is way down?
Vet says would increase because first is still high, but wants to wait about a month do another test and the thyroid test to see if improved. Feels maybe thyroid could be causing Apollo's leg weakness.
I am giving Apollo more treats just to get him to walk and now I have to worry about him gaining weight. He is also licking the fur off his front paw. Still has skin issues and his tail looks awful. He still has a little stomach gurgling and gas, although less. Just need to be patient.
But on the brighter side , Apollo walked a little further today with the help of his other girl friend Princess Lea(Zoe will always be number 1). :D What can I say Apollo likes to play the field, against his mother's wishes. :eek::D Sometimes we need to laugh to stop from crying.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

03-17-2011, 02:48 PM

Well, Zoe said she is willing to share Apollo if it makes him better:)

Zoe's tail looks really bad too, her coat looks thinner as well and I am thinking here in Wisconsin, it might be dogs are shedding out and maybe her hair cycle and spring are causing some of it. It was better last fall when she was supposed to grow her winter coat.

Your vet's plan sounds like a good one to me. I am praying and hoping that his thyroid may be causing some of this.

Hang in there
Love,
Addy

labblab

03-17-2011, 06:59 PM

Hi Sonja,

Can you remind us what dose of trilostane Apollo was taking at the time you discontinued it, and what dose he is taking now? Also, what were his last monitoring ACTH results while he was still taking the trilostane? Thanks so much for this info, because I think it will help us to better evaluate his most recent testing.

Please give Apollo a gentle pat for me,
Marianne

apollo6

03-20-2011, 12:58 AM

thanks Addy and Maria
Apollo was on 12.5 mg until Nov 2010, when the jaw trembling was going on and threw up more than once. On 11/4/10
acht stim
sample 1 2.5 was 1.1 range 5.0
sample 2 3.3(low) was 2.8 range 8.-17

off Trilostane from Nov through Feb
2/18/11

sample 1
4.5 range 1.-5.
sample 2
26.2(high) range 8.-17

2/28/11
now restarted on trilostane 12.5 mg
sample 1 5.3(HIGH)
SAMPLE 2 8.
I do get discouraged sometimes. Apollo's leg issues have not improved. Thinking about physical therapy to strengthen his back and front legs. Back legs are the worst. Still has little if any hair on his tail. Skin is dry and peeling once again. Hopefully within a month or so will see some improvement.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

03-20-2011, 03:26 AM

Hello Sonja,

We are glad to here the good news that Apollo's Cortisol is at least staying in the lower range. That is some progress!

Did I understand correctly that the vet was going to increase the dose a bit and retest in a month? Hopefully, Snoop should have loaded for a few more days and increased the maintance dose because we are back to loading after our thirty day ACTH. I hope this does'nt happen to your sweet boy.

Does the vet think Apollo's rear end issues will resolve with getting the cortisol in check or is it a separate hypothyroid issue? The Embark has been giving Snoop less gas and extra energy. I think she is more comfortable and the L-Glutamine has been working so the extra exercise and been helping with the atrophy.

We have the skin issues too. I put distilled white vinegar on the black spots/red yeast infection and they are going away. Less licking and scratching. Have been putting fresh aloa vera, from a backyard plant, on the dry skin where the hair fell out. Soothes and is a mild anti-bacterial, plus the hair is now trying to grow back. She seems to like the treatments.

It seems our little boy and girl have a lot in common! Must be the San Diego Sun Shine!

Rene & Snoopie

addy

03-20-2011, 01:36 PM

oops, soory sonja, i put this on the wrong spot.

Hope you are having a good day.

marie adams

03-20-2011, 10:22 PM

Hi Sonja,

When Maddie's skin seemed dry and it looked like she might have a yeast infection in her one ear I started giving her yogurt--she loved it; it was like a dessert. I also gave her fax seed oil (Trader Joe's in the vitamin section) to help with the skin and dry looking fur--it also seemed to help.

Take care and hang in there!!:)

apollo6

03-21-2011, 08:34 PM

Dear Rene and Marie
Thanks for the input and hi Addy.
Apollo already gets yogurt each morning but I might try the trader Joe stuff.
I already use Icelandic Fish oil for Apollo
Below is a link on fishoil vs flaxseed oil
http://www.natural-dog-health-remedies.com/fatty-acids-for-dogs.html

I also started him on the L-Glutamine. Was told dosage for dog FOR MUSCLES DOSAGE ½ MLG PER 1BL OF DOG.
Believe or not we had hail today in sunny San Diego.:eek:
I am guardian to two baby humming birds in my patio. :oAnd now I have a second one who has built a nest on my wind chime.:p
I am enjoying it . Apollo will go outside and bark if any noise in our back yard. I guess he is the security officer.:p
I am grateful now if Apollo walks on his own.
Waiting a month for next test.
I already apply Thayers unscented Witch Hazel with Aloe Vera with a cotton swab to Apollo's belly, and tail.
I will post the humming birds. We all need a little distraction.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

03-22-2011, 02:52 AM

Sonja,

Your little little hummers are precious...good pictures! They are so fun to have around.

Enjoy,
Rene & Snoopie

addy

03-23-2011, 02:42 PM

I already apply Thayers unscented Witch Hazel with Aloe Vera with a cotton swab to Apollo's belly, and tail.

Hi Sonja,

How are you and the pups? I saw this and wondered where to buy this brand. Maybe I should try this for Zoe. Her tails looks really bad now.

Don't you love humming birds? I don't get to see them in my garden until July. I was excited to see robins last week!!!!!! They come back in the spring.

Hope you are having a good week.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

03-23-2011, 02:56 PM

Dear Addy and Rene
My vet recommended for Apollo , Thayer hazel with Aloe Vera lotion for Apollo's skin and coat issues. I do love hummingbirds. But this year the nests are very early last year it was in May, seems strange?
below are two links , one explaining the product, the other where to buy on line. I think sometimes you can even buy at CVS PHARMACY, or Wholefood grocery store.

http://www.thayers.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id= Hazel with Aloe Vera
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBUS419US419&q=Thayers+unscented+Witch+Hazel+with+Aloe+Vera&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7282817728767870536&sa=X&ei=zjOKTeaLIozSsAPqtbSADA&ved=0CDcQ8wIwAg#
Now looking into physical therapy to try and strengthen Apollo's weak back legs.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

littleone1

03-23-2011, 06:34 PM

How is Apollo's leg weakness? Has there been any improvement?

Rene

03-24-2011, 12:36 AM

Hi Sonja,

The rain just hit here. Hope your little hummers stay dry. We are a little inland from you.

Snoop has a plastic ball that is made to put dry dog food or treats in that she has to roll around to get the food out. I dehydrate little chicken pieces and use that instead.

I thought that might be an idea for exercise for Apollo? Food and Love are great motivators!

Big Hug...Rene & Snoop

apollo6

03-26-2011, 06:15 PM

Dear Addy, Terry, Rene and the pups Zoe,Corky,Snoop. To us they will always be pups.
I am going to try physical therapy for Apollo's legs. Don't know if will help but will try. Thanks for the input Rene, I have Kong balls with holes for treats might be good idea to try.
A little discouraged. Apollo's skin is peeling again, I can pick up his skin and it doesn't bounce back. Like he is dehydrated? He still has some skin issues. His legs and behind or so thin. I can feel the bones in his little rear and just hope time will tell. He also gets winded so easily just walking across the room. I am having some fear right now which is not good.
The simple pleasure I am having now while writing you is Apollo's little head is on my lap. Priceless
Hugs Sonja and Apollo:o
P.s. one of the baby humming birds has flown away one is left and I get to see the whole process again with the new nest. Never had that happen in my lifetime.

littleone1

03-26-2011, 06:40 PM

Dear Sonja,

I am also keeping you and Apollo in my thoughts and prayers. I hope the therapy helps.

That's so special that Apollo has his head in your lap. They love to be close.

addy

03-26-2011, 07:38 PM

We have to live for those priceless moments, dearest friend, they are what keeps us going. I wonder too about Zoe, she sounds congested to me, I can't explain it. Nasally almost.:confused:

I am hoping the coming months will bring improvement to Apollo. We will hold on to hope.

Love you,
Addy

Rene

03-26-2011, 10:32 PM

Sweetie, i'm so sorry your fearful. Not a good place to be.

Take pride in knowing you are doing the very best you can for Apollo. He knows it and he knows that you love him very much. That is all that counts.

Sounds like he may be dehydrated. How do his eyes look? Did you give the vet a jingle?

Try a little extra water in his Embark...Hugs to both,

Rene & Snoopie

Squirt's Mom

03-27-2011, 10:33 AM

Hi Sonja,

The skin action you describe could mean he is dehydrated. They (vets) check for dehydration by pulling the skin up into a "tent" then releasing it. If the pup is hydrated, the skin will fall right back into place. If the pup is not hydrated, the skin will fall slowly into place or even a portion remain "tented".

Dehydration will affect his joints and muscles, as well as every other system in his body, and make him feel very tired and poorly.

Kibbles will make a pup thirstier than other forms of feed, so if Apollo is eating any kibble you want to make sure he is getting plenty of fluid. You can add water to his feed as Rene suggested. This is usually the easiest way to get fluids in. ;)

Before Squirt's last knee surgery, one of the docs we saw said she was a bit dehydrated and recommended that I add a little bit of Pedialyte to her drinking water to help build her fluid levels back up. It worked and I still add it to their water from time to time.

Honey, just keep loving Apollo as you do. Let your heart rejoice when he is feeling good. Take those moments and hold them in your heart so very tight. It is so hard to do at times, I know, but my Crys taught me it is possible. Continue to do all you can to help him feel better when he is having a hard time - and celebrate every second that he feels good.

You're a good mom, Sonja, don't ever forget that!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

addy

03-27-2011, 12:11 PM

Hi Sonja,

You can try making the Embark extra soupy. You can add 1.5 cups of water to 1 cup food for example. I used to make it that way for Koko.

Love you,
Ady

apollo6

03-27-2011, 02:52 PM

Dear Rene, Leslie, Terry and Addy, can't thank you all enough for your love and support.
Rene and Addy , still struggling with the right portion on the Embark and how much water to make it soup not watery.
Terry thanks for caring.
Leslie thanks for reminding me about the Pedialyte. I have used in the past, also Gatorade is go for dehydration. Just can't figure out why now? Is it the Trilostane?
I make Apollo walk a little each day around the house. What a sight me running with treats and him following me.:eek:
I got an early appointment for the physical therapy next Thursday.
I will make pictures if Apollo cooperates. I will also try my cam cord. I will need help from you guys on how to and where to download on YouTube . Can always learn something new.
Weather isn't great today, but we are wimps about the weather in San Diego. Sorry Rene.

May look at my old Barbie with my Mom, yes the original from 1957. Now I am dating myself. My Mom made clothes, shoes, hats, wedding dress etc for her. :)
on the brighter side, Apollo loves whip cream and Applesauce on the weekends. I put whip cream in my coffee on weekends. The Austrian ice cafe is hot coffee, two scoops of vanilla ice cream,top with whip cream and a chocolate spiral cookie in it. Then you scoop the ice cream up with a spoon or the cookie, and sip the coffee with a straw.
Maybe I could open a little cafe with Austrian deserts?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Squirt's Mom

03-27-2011, 03:01 PM

Hi Sonja,

Barbies....what memories that brings back! I, too, had one of the original Barbies and my mom also made nearly all of the clothes, etc for her and the rest of them. :D I was always so proud of those hand-made items. I kept them carefully after I grew up and took great pleasure in sharing them with my daughter when she was young. One day, a little girl in the neighborhood got mad at Gia and took ALL our Barbies and accessories and dropped then in the drainage pipes under our street. :(

I got her a Holiday Barbie every Christmas, too. She and I got much pleasure from our Barbies!

Thanks for stirring up that memory...they are precious.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

Rene

03-28-2011, 12:46 AM

Oh Sweetie you made me laugh...thanks I needed it!

First of all I agree about the weather. As a SoCal native and the hubby being from Michigan I get ribbed about being a "woosey" all the time.

Secondly, someone correct me if I am off base but I personally do not drink gatoraid because of the sodium content and I do not think it would serve Apollo either. Stick to the Pedialyte. After Snoopie's surgeries she prefered the "bubble gum" flavor as the fruit flavor was too sharp.

Here is a trick with the Embark if Apollo wont eat soupy to get more fluids in. It gets firm when you refrigerate it! Make it soupy as Addy said. Lets say use half warm water to hydrate it and let stand. When cool stir in the other half Pedialyte and refrigerate.

Barbies....oh my....I used to steal my brothers GI Joes and Hot Wheels and go on Barbie dates.

Did the other hummer fly the coop yet?

Thanks!

Rene & Snoopie

Rene

03-28-2011, 01:02 AM

Forgot...the other thing I did to get Snoop to drink the Pedialyte was, I filled up about half way one of those little condiment dishes with the Pedialyte. You know the tiny little restaurant cups they give you for dipping your shrimp in sauce or butter in? Anyways...I would take a piece of chicken and show it to Snoop and drop it in! No matter how bad she felt she would fish it out and drink all the Pedialyte. Sure made me feel better.

Big Huggs

Rene

03-28-2011, 01:10 AM

Sorry to SPAM you but the reason I asked you about Apollo's eyes was when Snoop was really sick and dehydrated her eyes were very sunk in. Also a sign of dehydration I was told by her surgeon. Something you may also want to check.

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

addy

03-28-2011, 09:13 AM

Hi Sonja,

Your Austrian ice coffee sounds wonderful and I plan on making myself a cup next weekend. We traveled to Vienna many years ago and I loved the city and love Austria. One of my dreams on my 10 things to do before I die list (which I dont think will be fulfilled:( is to go to the New Years Ball in Vienna. I want a white dress with a red sash;)

I will fly out and be your first customer:D:D at the Apollo Cafe.

One thing on the Embark, make sure you let it sit up for ten minutes before serving so it hydrates well. Even if you make it soupy, let it sit for 10 minutes.

Love you dearest friend.

Addy

apollo6

03-30-2011, 10:41 PM

Dear Leslie, Addy and Rene.
Running out the door. Will read up on your posts.
Thanks for the input still struggling with the Embark.
Fill like Apollo has all these fires to put out on his body-cushing, maybe hypothyroidism, muscle atrophy, skin problems and I only have one hose to put out all the fires. :( I am so stressed, I think I forgot to give him the Trilostane for a few days, will be more diligent in future.
Still seems dehydrated, balance is worse. Tomorrow physical therapy will see.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

03-31-2011, 12:48 AM

Hi Sonja,

I think we are in the same place right now. Too much going on. My husband had to remind me of the KISS thing this week. Remember that? HA!

Forget it all for awhile and just enjoy your boy.

Hugs and Love,
Rene & Snoopie

addy

04-01-2011, 02:34 PM

Hi Sonja,

How did physical therapy go? Is our little boy still dehydrated?

Thinking of you both.

Love,
Addy

marie adams

04-01-2011, 02:45 PM

Hi Sonja,

I hope today is better for both of you.

If you open that Austrian Cafe with desserts--I will drive down to visit!!:D:D

apollo6

04-02-2011, 11:59 PM

Dear
Addy, Marie and My Angel Girl Maddie, Rene and Snoop. Thanks for the posts. I remember Kiss. And maybe I will open that cafe. "Apollo's Cafe". Never say never.
There was a mix up on time about my appointment for Apollo's therapy. I thought 3.30p.m. , the therapist said it was 3p.m. and her message said 3.15p.m. The therapist was nice enough to show us the therapy room, show us the treadmill tank that fills with water. She observed Apollo, felt his legs, and held him for awhile. He seemed very comfortable with her. So the crazy Mom brings the cam cord and camera for nothing. Next week Apollo has his first treatment. The muscle wasting is not only in the back legs but also front legs now and his head. I pray with time that stops. It kills me when he falls. I just say it is okay and act as if everything is alright.
Apollo is very special. There was a big co-motion about me bringing him to church. The church sided with him saying he is one of God's creatures. Well the little stinker let a big one in church tonight.:eek:
Talk about being embarrassed. I try to take Apollo everywhere I can. I need to get out with him more even if it is in the red stroller. You adapt.
I still have a hard time accepting Apollo's limitations. But you do what you have to do for the little guy.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-03-2011, 11:34 AM

Well now, God takes all creatures even those with gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My niece has a senior Cairn Terrier with arthritis. Sydney can't walk very far any more and she puts him in his stroller and grabs her other pup and off they go.:):) People think she has a baby in the stroller;)

I am heading off to mix up a Sonja Special Sunday Drink;);)

Enjoy your day and hope Apollo's therapy helps.

Addy

littleone1

04-03-2011, 01:12 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers that this will help Apollo.

apollo6

04-03-2011, 04:04 PM

Dear Addy and Terry
Thank you.
Addy picture yourself outside in a Vienna Cafe in Austria.
Still giving Apollo the pedialyte, but he is still dehydrated. Now I am worried he might not being seeing so well. I have got to get a grip on this. I am not staying in the now and projecting my fears of losing Apollo too soon. Cushing ages them so fast. It tears me apart every time I read we lost another cushing baby.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

04-03-2011, 05:04 PM

Snoop did that too. Last December all of the sudden her hearing and sight rapidly declined...no real explaniations from the vets for that.

Her sight has gotten much better since...it seems more than just she adjusted to it.

Hugs...Rene & Snoopie

addy

04-04-2011, 02:51 PM

Cushing ages them so fast

I was just saying that to hubby about Zoe.:(

I am hoping physical therapy is going to help!!!!!

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-08-2011, 11:03 PM

Dear Rene, Addy, and Terry
Well Apollo had his first therapy session. He actually enjoyed it.(probably because of all the treats):D
The therapist gave me instruction on exercises to do at home for his legs. Exercise equipment, pillow to sit and stand up, (went to home depot to get a few poles with connections for Apollo to have to walk over to bend his legs) Also showed me massages I should do for his front and hind legs.
I asked Apollo for a raise but he said due to the economic environment he couldn't give me on.:eek::mad::D
I have posted pictures from the therapy. It wore the little guy out. He slept in my mother's arms on the way home.
The therapist said hopefully this helps to lesson the weakness in his legs. I hate Cushings:mad::mad:
Next week is busy-Monday-Apollo Acht Stim, another Thyroid test, Thursday Therapy, Friday-acupuncture,massage-That is all for Apollo.

I sometimes wonder if I should get a part time job, with the business doing so bad. If this had happened when things were good it would be so much easier to handle
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-09-2011, 09:54 AM

Hey Sonja,

Wow, you have a busy week next week. You may need two cups of Sonja's Sunday Special:D

I hate Cushings right along with you:mad::mad:

What do you need the poles for? I made a tiny jump for my pups but was afraid to keep asking Zoe to go over it even though it is really low. I just wondered how you will use the poles.

Off to check out your album.

Love you,
Addy

Rene

04-09-2011, 08:38 PM

Sonja,
He does look like he is enjoying himself....what a face!
Rene & Snoopie

Squirt's Mom

04-10-2011, 11:33 AM

Hey Sonja,

I hope the therapy helps Apollo. It sounds like he has a lot of work ahead of him! I bet that's why he didn't give you a raise - you are making HIM work harder! :p Maybe more treats for him will work in your favor. ;)

This disease....oh, man, how could we not hate it? But I would hate anything that took quality from my babies lives. I hate blindness, colitis, hydrocephalus, arthritis and pancreatitis as well. I want my babies to enjoy every moment, every single second of their lives but these things rob them of some of that joy. I can't take these things away from them, tho I so wish I could, so the only thing I can do is make them as happy as possible within the limitations of their various conditions. I can take actions to help them feel better, to help them maneuver in their very different worlds, to fight the issues as they arise. That's all any of us can do.

And I tell you now, there are no better parents in the whole world than those gathered here - that includes you, dear. Apollo has the best chance of all simply because he has you as his mom. When you get discouraged and feel like nothing you do is helping, remind yourself that you are trying, trying oh so very hard, to help him. You have done and continue to do more than many, many folks would ever even consider doing much less actually take the action. Apollo is a lucky fellow because he has you as his mom.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

apollo6

04-10-2011, 05:10 PM

Dear Rene, Addy, and Leslie and the gang, and Snoopy and Zoe.
Will post later tonight. Dear Addy Apollo is a two timer for having a second girlfriend on the side.
Will post picture of the pole therapy later to explain how I am to use to get Apollo to bend his legs. But he falls in the front now also.
Like you said Leslie, the parents on this forum are doing the best they can for the cushing babies. Sometimes I just feel like it isn't enough and I wish I did not believe this disease can shorten their lives. But it is the quality of life we need to focus on.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
On Sundays my 79 year old Mom wants me to take her for a ride. I need to enjoy her while I still have her.

apollo6

04-10-2011, 11:52 PM

Hello
my friends, I will post some of the therapy equipment I am using for Apollo's legs. I just read John's thread on Angeline passing again and I just can not stop crying.
I wonder about my little boy. He just flops down now, now his front paws are weak also. I will post pictures of his therapy equipment so you can see. I know each day I have with him now is a gift. :o It doesn't get easier.:( We went to the ocean. I had Apollo in the stroller, but my heart ached when I saw other dogs walking and running.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

littleone1

04-11-2011, 04:20 AM

(((HUGS))) Sonja. You are doing everything you can possibly do to help Apollo. I'm really hoping that the therapy helps. I know we all worry about our precious furbabies. It is heartbreaking to see them decline. Just take one day at a time.

I know we want to blame cushings for what is happening to them, but I know with Corky, he was coping with most of his issues before he had any symptoms of cushings.

Take care my friend, and give Apollo losts of belly rubs from me.

Squirt's Mom

04-11-2011, 09:29 AM

Hi Sonja,

I checked out the therapy pics - how interesting! Who would have thought that simple little PVC pipes could have such therapeutic value? I so hope this therapy does Apollo some good. He looks so attentive in the pics! :)

Hang in there, sweetie.
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

apollo6

04-11-2011, 03:53 PM

Dear Terry and Leslie
Thank you for the support
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-11-2011, 06:37 PM

Dearest Best Friend,

I am sorry your heart is so heavy. I understand why. Last week, every night I drove home from work I would see someone out walking two dogs. For some reason, seeing that, every night, I burst into tears. Can't explain why:rolleyes:

We are so much alike, you and I. We both need to live in the now. Love them now. Enjoy them now. Don't think about tomorrow.

I have to tell you, I see a gleam in his eye even in though it is only a picture. Look at his face, look at his eyes. He is not going anywhere yet.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-13-2011, 03:25 PM

Thank you all for all the well wishes.
I just found out today that Apollo throw up on the bed comforter and I think there was some blood in it. I will mention to holistic vet on Friday. Still waiting for test results on Stim and Thyroid. Sometimes I wonder is the medication helping. It has been about 50 days since Apollo restarted the TRilostane. I fear increasing the dosage just yet. Last time it was increased by less then 2.5 mg(10mg to 12.5mg) he had the jaw trembling and throw up a few times. He has not had any jaw trembling since. You can get discouraged very easily.
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

04-14-2011, 12:30 AM

Oh Sonja,

Apollo is precious! He seems so present, but the little body has a hitch. Snoop is in the same funk. We are doing all we can do...but they are locked in those little dysfunctional bodies, with a clear mind. The funny thing is, it seems, we are the only ones who seem to notice. Snoop is so happy. I anguish over everytime something goes wrong. Like you pointed out they pick up on it! They fall over...we get upset, they wonder why. I hope that is really what is going on in their minds.

Loved the PT photos! We use the same tech training horses. Getting them to step up and over with the PVC pipes. Later, throwing in turning, backing and other manuevers. It's excellent mental and physical training.

Out of town...again.

Love & Hugs...Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

04-14-2011, 04:48 PM

Dear Rene
Thanks. Have a great trip. With our business barely surviving we are doing nothing for ourselves.
I did treat Apollo a new trick to use the other paw to help with the balancing. He is having more difficulty with his legs. But then yesterday out of no where he got up on the couch by him self and laid on his favorite part of the couch the back rest.:confused::o
Waiting and anxious about his test results.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

JenniferFionaLeigh

04-15-2011, 02:19 AM

My dog Fiona was diagnosed almost a year ago and we had very good luck with Trilostane. She is a 10 year old female poodle and responded very well to the drug but make sure your vet supplies you with prednozone (sp?) just in case your dog has an adverse reaction if you decide to go that route. Unfortunately, last week she was also diagnosed with diabetic ketoacidosis which can mimc the same symptoms as Cushing's. It turns out she has both but I have been controlling it with insulin and diet this past week and she should be able to go back on Trilostane next week. I recommend the drug simply because Fiona is usually sensitive to antibiotics/treatments and Trilostane provided no side effects for her which is unusual (for her on anything). I saw results with Trilostane within two weeks but definitely get the Cushing's test and if your dog continues to drink excessively, lay in cold spots and ESPECIALLY incontinence ask for a ketone test of his/her urine. DO NOT LET THEM GIVE YOU PROIN ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A SMALL DOG. This is a cheap drug almost devoid of tests and it has a thirty percent stroke rate in dogs. Diapers are cheaper but if your dog starts leaking without his/her knowledge in the middle of the night I would recommend a diabetes test because the symptoms mimic each other and it can go hand in hand. Fiona didn't exhibit any incontinence due to Trilostane at all and it did seem to really help her. I will recommend that if you go that route give it to him/her every day at the same time. It's an inhibitor so you want to make certain it's on the correct time release. If after about 48 hours your dog doesn't have a bad reaction then you're good to go. Just make sure you are provided the steroid just in case. If you have any more questions please feel free to contact me! Jennifer.Etheridge9@gmail.com - just put Cushing's in the subject and I'll share with you what I know. I hope everything works out for you. Mine just got out of a week in the hospital and I'm dealing with two insulin shots a day and trying to juggle food and meds but it's, of course, totally worth it. Also, watch for frequent urinary tract infections and more than usual loss of hair. Ok, that's all for now :-)

addy

04-15-2011, 09:15 AM

Hi Sonja,

Did you get the stim results back? How is everything? I hope our little boy is making you smile with another jump on the sofa.

I need a full report so sharpen your pencil!!!!!!!;)

All me love,
Addy

apollo6

04-16-2011, 08:47 PM

Thanks Jennifer, Rene, and Addy
I will post the thyroid results tomorrow. The lab lost Apollo's Acht STim test.:eek: When I received the stim test results, I noted it was from a month ago, because nothing had changed on the readings. I had to call the vet and tell him. They researched, said the lab lost Apollo's blood work. Now I have to reschedule another test. The vet will be on vacation( what is that? I haven't had a vacation in 10years) for three weeks, and I will be out of TRilostane. So I have to refill the same dosage until I know the new results. Thank God, I am on top of this.
On the positive, Apollo learned a new trick, to use his other paw when I ask for his paw. The physical therapist said he did a little longer on the treadmill this time. And we are working on him bending his legs more. Will keep you posted. Even my holistic vet noticed how quiet I have become with dealing with Apollo's cushings. :(
It isn't easy. But he still is bright eyed and very alert.:o
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-17-2011, 09:49 AM

Never a dull moment with the vets!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Vacation? What the heck is that anyway? I think it is a foreign word:p

Apollo's bright eyes shine through on his photos. Keep up the good work, dear friend. I hope this post finds you enjoying a Sonja's Sunday Special Drink!!!!!

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-17-2011, 03:39 PM

Apollo and I are enjoying our Sunday morning coffee. We need to focus on what we have with our fur balls not what we and they have lost. Not easy to do.
Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

04-18-2011, 11:59 PM

doing a lot of worrying. Apollo continues to struggle with his walking, falls in front now also. I am thinking of getting xray of his hips and hind legs(which wasn't done correctly last time) He is having more difficulty bending the right over the left. But he still is very alert. The skin liaisons are not getting better. Maybe I need to give it time it has been 56 days since Apollo restarted the Trilostane. I will have to re due the Acht stim April 25th. I wanted us to enjoy Easter without any stress.
Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-19-2011, 08:56 PM

Hi Sonja,

Has it really been 56 days? The time goes so fast, I did not realize it had been that long. I think the skin/hair issues take about 4 months. The drinking, peeing and panting go away first, the leg weakness and coat issues take longer.:(:(:(

One of Zoe's front legs has problems off and on for 3 years now. It got better for the last year and now I noticed it is weaker again. Makes me wonder when her cortisol drops how bad it will be:confused:

Hoping the stim next week goes well and they don't lose it:rolleyes:

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-21-2011, 03:27 PM

Dear Addy
Thanks
Wishing every one a blessed Easter and passover.
Off to Apollo's therapy. He seems to fall more, balance is bad. Now he has skin liaisons on the face , muzzle and two on his back, which he did not have before. The skin is dark and has tiny black heads, when I squeeze the area's pus comes out and ingrown hairs. I am worried why this is happening more.:(:confused:
I guess I just have to wait for the results of the re-due ACht Stim test next week. Makes me mad , how they could have misplaced his 3/11/11 test.:mad:
San Diego is having it's June gloom( overcast no sun) early this year
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

littleone1

04-21-2011, 06:32 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm sorry to hear that Apollo is experiencing more difficulties. I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers that there will be some improvement soon.

addy

04-21-2011, 08:01 PM

Why, what is happening to his poos? Are they bad?

Oh Sonja, it has been about 2 months, I thought I remember his pimple stuff got better last time when you were on the Trilostane longer. Maybe it will get better in a few months, the skin problems.

Saying prayers for you dearest best friend.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-22-2011, 03:40 PM

Dear Terry and Addy
Thanks for the support.
Apollo's poops are almost normal. I am praying the skin issues clear up. But his 4 legs are not getting much better about the same. He doesn't go for walks any more, just a few short laps up and down the sidewalk.
The therapist said his endurance on the treadmill is better, but the legs will never be the same. I have more exercises to do with him.
If I look back over this past year the changes in Apollo have been drastic with the legs and hopefully the skin issues get better.
Like all of you , I am exhausted and feel like crying often, especially at night. I guess reading about so many losses lately is hard.
Have a blessed Easter and Passover.
Next week the ACHT STIM, MONDAY.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

04-22-2011, 07:23 PM

Hello Sonja,

Just got back from my work trip and catching up with our boy. I'm sorry your having ups and downs. We just got back last night and at least the weather is beautiful! Hopefully you can enjoy a wounderful Easter sunday.

Snoop started refusing the Embark a couple weeks before we left so I tried something really new for us. I have about five pounds of my ten pound box left, that you are welcome to.

This is what we tried...Steve's real food (stevesrealfood.com). Its raw, frozen, very small 1/4 inch cubes. I found it locally here in 10 pound bags for about $30.00. What a difference. Snoop has put on weight and muscle in the rear end where she wasted! The other thing is the gas, redness in her eyes and the constant tearing resolved! Even the bald patches under her eyes grew back in white while we were on our trip and her her hair has not been growing at all. Remember the pictures I posted of her bonnet before I left? Look how bad her eyes and wasted she looked. I will post new pictures today. This all happened in three weeks...I dislike sounding like a commercial but Snoop and Apollo's problems have been so similar I had to mention it.

Love & Hugs,
Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

04-22-2011, 10:17 PM

Dear Rene
Thanks. Wondering about the Embark myself.
Dear Addy
I can't believe this but my vet found Apollo Acht Stim test. They sent to the University of Tennessee by mistake. They won't charge me for getting all the extra tests. I will post the results in the next few days.
They also did the sex hormones which are very elevated. Now I am more confused as to treatment. Apollo has a black patch of skin on the side of his muzzle , two on his back also. So I am freaking out.:eek: I am getting the results faxed. Will keep you posted.
So glad to hear about Snoopy, Good news is always welcome.
Still would like to talk to you Rene after Easter about Snoopy.
My vet is out on vacation for three weeks. I am going to make an appointment to go over all Apollo's issues and the results.

Love you all.P.s. so does Apollo

addy

04-22-2011, 10:24 PM

Hi Sonja,

I have been wondering about Apollo's intemediates for some time now but didn't want to bring up the subject, you have had so much to deal with.

Hang in there dear friend. Please post the UTK results when you can.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-23-2011, 01:41 PM

Dear Addy, Rene and Terry
I hope one of the administrators reads Apollo's report.
I will post. I am more overwhelmed.
Just read in Dr. Oliver's article
Trilostane treatment frequently results in increased estradiol levels,29 and this may be a reason why less than effective treatment with the drug sometimes occurs. Trilostane. Enzyme inhibition by trilostane occurs for 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, but also for 11-beta hydroxylase.30 Thus, 11-deoxycortisol levels build-up in dogs treated with trilostane. It is also apparent that other intermediate steroid levels increase (androstenedione, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and progesterone) in dogs treated with trilostane,29 which could be due to the 11-beta hydroxylase inhibition, and possibly 21-hydroxylase enzyme inhibition.29 The reason why only 11-deoxycortisol levels were increased in the above study30 may be due to the length of trilostane exposure (3-7 weeks), compared to dogs that are exposed to trilostane for extended periods. Trilostane reportedly offers effective control of Cushing’s syndrome,30 but the long-term effects of the elevated intermediate steroids remain ill-defined. Some dogs do have return of clinical signs of Cushing’s syndrome while on trilostane.29 Because trilostane seems to pre-dispose dogs to increased adrenal toxicity with mitotane, an acute switch from trilostane to mitotane treatment should not be done.For primary hyperaldosteronism conditions, due to primary adrenal tumor or bilateral adrenal hyperplasia, expect hypertension in association with hypernatremia and muscular weakness (cervical ventroflexion, hindlimb weakness) due to hypokalemia.39
now read this also.
 Estradiol Increase (Hyperestrinism)
Estradiol typically causes increased liver involvement (hepatomegaly, steroid hepatopathy, increased ALP and ALT) and PU/PD. Other signs that are seen with true Cushing’s disease can also be present, such as haircoat problems, dilute urine, muscle weakness, hypertension and pot-bellied appearance. Melatonin and lignans may be the best treatment approach at this time. Give them together, and allow 4 months for a good treatment response to occur. Monitor improvement in clinical signs, reduction in ALP and ALT levels or re-run a baseline estradiol level, or our adrenal steroid profile, to see what effects the treatment is having on hormone levels.
See also the “Treatment Section” of Steroid Profiles in the Diagnosis of Canine Adrenal Disorders. Jack W. Oliver, Proceedings 25th ACVIM Forum, Pp. 471-473, Seattle, WA. 2007.
 Aldosterone
Elevated aldosterone levels should be accompanied by hypernatremia and hypertension, and hypokalemia and muscle weakness. Aldosterone levels can be increased in cases of adrenal hyperplasia or primary adrenal tumor, but aldosterone can also be increased in cases where the renin-angiotensin system is increased (e.g., renal and cardiac problems). Also, low aldosterone level frequently indicates the presence of a primary adrenal tumor, so that ultrasound exam of the adrenals is indicated in this situation.

CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 45.7 NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 71.5 NORMAL 70.6-151.2

ANDROSTENEDIONE NG/ML BASELINE 4.08 NORMAL .05-.36
POST 6.78 NORMAL .24-2.90

ESTRADIOL PG/ML BASELINE 69.9 NORMAL 23.1-65.1
POST 73.9 NORMAL 23.3-69.4

PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.45 NORMAL .03-0.17
POST 3.13 NORMAL .22-1.45

17OH PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 5.68 NORMAL .08-.22
POST 16.8 NORMAL .25-2.63

ALDOSTERONE PG/ML baseline 39.5 NORMAL 11-139.9
POST 66.9 NORMAL 72.9-398.5

I just didn't expect this to happen. Now I have to reevaluate Apollo's treatment and maybe email Dr. Oliver. This isn't getting easier. It confirms the increase skin problems and maybe even the hind leg weakness.
Addy I am in the same place as you what do I do next? Stop the Trilostane, go back to the specialist.
Sonja and Apollo

littleone1

04-23-2011, 02:07 PM

Hi Sonja,

I know this can be very confusing. I just looked at Corky's results from his last adrenal panel, which was done a year ago this past March. His levels are also elevated, but not quite as much as Apollo's. His Aldosterone was much lower. It was very low.

I know we can share our experiences with you, but unfortunately, this is something you need to decide. I really wish there were easy answers. Whatever you decide to do, I know you will make the right decision and do what's best for Apollo. You have been doing everything you can possibly do to help him.

Hang in there my friend. You're a terrific mom.

marie adams

04-23-2011, 02:20 PM

Hi Sonja,

You will get answers. I so remember being overwhelmed and thinking you had it under control, but there was always a but in there.:o It is always a learning experience and you know your stuff so hang in there.

It is a lovely day and hopefully it will continue through tomorrow for Easter Services.

Enjoy your day together--give Apollo a hug and you need one too ((HUG))!!:)

addy

04-23-2011, 02:39 PM

Sweetie, I'll find Zoe's two UTK panels for you to compare. I have had discussions about this with Glynda and Lori even has a report about most Cush pups have some elevated intermediate hormones. I'll go find the posts I did from Dr. Oliver for you to read too. I know Glynda will have her say about it so hang on!!!!! In fact I just emailed Dr. Mark Peterson yesterday hoping he will again answer me.

Take a deep breath, breathe in, breathe out, I'll find Dr. Allen's email as well.

This will take me a bit and the kids are here to dye Easter Eggs but I promise I will get it done for you Sonja.

Slow down for now.:)

Love,
Addy

Rene

04-23-2011, 03:18 PM

Hello Sweetie!

Everything happens for a reason...Im a firm believer! This is the best mistake/piece of information and Easter gift you could have been given! Thank you UT!

When Snoops vet suspected cushings she wanted put her on Trilo. I was not comfortable with this and this is what brought me to the group. If you read back to the begining of my thread you were one of the first ones who took me under your wing. Thank you dear friend.

If you recall I was not comfortable starting the Trilo without knowing her baseline and getting the full panel from UT. We ran the panel and low and behold all of her sex hormones/intermediates as well as her cortisol were extremely high. In her case we knew she was elevated to start with so we knew not to put her on the trilo, as it can elevate them. I did have her on the melatonin and HMR lignans prior to the lysodren but she was so elevated it had no effect. So, we put her on the Lysodren as it lowers the hormones.

I sent e-mail to Dr. Oliver on this subject awhile ago. Here is some of the conversation:

Rene>>>As you may recall Snoopie's results with you folks (#EN 11-0171) before starting
the lysodren on 01/13/2011 were:

Cortisol ng/ml 104.8 baseline 426.4 post
Androstenedione ng/ml 2.44 baseline 10.0 post
Estradiol pg/ml 125.1 baseline 125.7 post
Progesterone ng/ml 0.97 post 20.8
17 OH Progesterrone ng/ml 0.99 post 26.8
Aldosterone pg/ml 30.5 post 152.9

Dr. Oliver's Reply>>>With the cortisol level you now have after loading, most of these should be
in the normal range.

Rene>>>I am concerned about her Estradiol and other hormones. Your literature
indicated that Lysodren will most likely take care of the other elevated
hormones but not necessarily the Estradiol?

Dr. Oliver's Reply>>>It does respond to Lysodren in maybe 50% of cases, and when most other
hormones are increased, there's a better chance that Lysodren will also lower
the estradiol.

Sonja...I hope this helps.
It could be our little boy is just having trilo troubles!

Happy Easter...Love & Hope,
Rene & Snoopie

addy

04-23-2011, 05:19 PM

Sonja- Zoe's two UTK panels and questions and answers to UTK

MAY 2010 adrenal panel

Cortisol ng/ml 47.7 2.1-58.8 304.4* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml 1.05* 0.05-0.57 7.69* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 114.8* 30.8-69.9 102.2* 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.99 0.3-0.49 5.91* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml 1.18* 0.08-0.77 20.33* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml *** 33.9 11-139.9 357.1 72.9-398.5

JANUARY 2011 Adrenal Panel -Melatonin and lignans at full dose for 3 months

Cortisol ng/ml 41.6 2.1-58.8 440* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml .33 0.05-0.57 4.29* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 54.5 30.8-69.9 52.2 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.46 0.3-0.49 4.79* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml .72 0.08-0.77 9.9* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml 33.2 11-139.9 213.6 72.9-398.5

Questions and answers:

Can a dog showing mild symptoms of adrenal disease and also having a concurrent non-adrenal related disease at time of testing show an increase in the intermediate hormones due to the non adrenal disease?

>>>Non-adrenal disease can cause increased hormone levels; particularly 17-hydroxyprogesterone. But, I don’t think you would get the high levels of hormones that you are seeing from non-adrenal disease illness. Any chance that you are using hormone creams? You often see these very high hormone levels in dogs when owners are applying hormone creams, and the dog comes in contact with application sites.

Can a non adrenal disease affect the sex hormones?

>>>The only one that’s been studied so far is the 17-hydroxyprogesterone.

I did consider maintenance dose of lysodren rather than loading with lysodren to see if she can tolerate it. I am worried it will cause Zoe diarrhea as she has such a touchy system.

>>>With the high hormone levels, you probably will need something in addition to melatonin and lignan, and maintenance Lysodren is probably best.

If I do low dose Trilostane will it elevate her Estradiol and Aldosterone?

>>>It will, and they are already high to begin with.

Should I not consider Trilostane at all?

>>>With the profile of hormones that you have, I would prefer maintenance Lysodren along with melatonin and lignans

With cortisol as high as Zoe's in your experience, is a non loading lysodren maintenance dose a viable option?

>>>It certainly would be. There would be two approaches here; 1) you could do a more conservative treatment by continuing the melatonin and lignans, and add maintenance Lysodren; or, 2) you could do the traditional approach where cortisol is very elevated and load the dog to get the hormone levels under control, and then go to maintenance Lysodren.

I had hoped to start Zoe on a maintenance dose of lysodren but I am now concerned that her cortisol is too high for that to help. Do you have a cut off point at which the cortisol is too high for you to recommend that as a treatment option and loading would be the only option?

>>>You can give the melatonin, lignan and maintenance Lysodren, and if you don’t see improvement within 3 months, then you can consider a loading dose of Lysodren at that time. Monitor the cortisol levels in either case, like you would for a true Cushing’s case treated with a loading dose of Lysodren. When cortisol gets down to around 50 ng/ml (5 ug/dL), the intermediates as well as cortisol will be controlled. Estradiol is sometimes an exception to this.

What will do Zoe more harm, elevated cortisol or elevated intermediate hormones? If I have to choose between the lesser of two evils

>>>>This direct quote I did not copy correclty so cannot post now but he said they seem to do the same thing.

apollo6

04-24-2011, 12:54 AM

Dear Terry, Addy, Rene and Marie
I will look at Zoe's readings to compare.
I will look at all your post after this Easter Sunday. I really need to re-elevate. Apollo has gotten worse since January and is now on the Trilostane for 60 days. Like you all said , the mistake is a blessing and set back.
Have a nice Easter.
Will start looking at your posts after Easter.
I am so beside myself with all of this information. Or maybe God had this mistake of where the labs were sent for a reason. They say everything happens for a reason.
Love you all
Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

04-26-2011, 04:55 PM

I have been looking at Apollo's tests and trying to get information on the high intermediate readings. I need to step back and research and talk to vet. I can not make any rash decisions right now.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

lulusmom

04-26-2011, 07:14 PM

Hi Sonja,

Yes, I have a different take on Dr. Oliver's theory that Trilostane will eventually elevate intermediates and cause a return of symptoms in a dog. My experience with my own dogs and my research doesn't support that theory. I think Dr. Oliver is a beautiful person who is dedicated to his field but the fact of the matter is that he has no peer reviewed studies or clinical trials to support his opinion. If anybody would know if that really happens, you would think we would because we've seen scores of dogs treated with Trilostane who have done very well with no return of symptoms or ill effects due to elevated intermediates.

I have posted below the post stimulated results of Lulu’s UTK panel that was done a good month or two after we took her off of Trilostane a few years back. As you can see, her intermediates were off the chart and guess what? She was totally asymptomatic at that point and it wasn’t until her post stimulated cortisol was up around 25 ug/dl that she became symptomatic again. With Lulu, it was the cortisol that caused the symptoms, not the intermediates. Lulu fits the profile of more than a few dogs in sanctioned studies who also had extremely high intermediates but were never symptomatic.

Cortisol 202.2 (66.7 – 174.8)
Androstenedione >100 (3.8 – 42.1)
Estradiol 84.8 (31.8 – 63.1)
Progesterone 7.90 (0.33 – 4.33)
17OH Prog. >25 (0.68 – 4.44)
Aldosterone. 507.1 (72.9 – 398.6)

If you read further down through the text that you quoted from Dr. Oliver (see below), I have bolded some very specific words which I believe is self explanatory. I also bolded Dr. Oliver’s own words where he admits that “the long term effects of elevated intermediate steroids remain ill-defined.” That simply means there is no proof that there are any long term effects of elevated intermediate steroids. Again, you would think if anybody had proof, we’d have it here but we don’t. I can’t remember a time when any dog being treated with Trilostane, with effective control of cortisol throughout the day, experienced the return of symptoms because of Trilostane’s effect on the intermediates. It hasn’t happened and I’m not convinced that it ever will.

Trilostane treatment frequently results in increased estradiol levels and this may be a reason why less than effective treatment with the drug sometimes occurs. Trilostane. Enzyme inhibition by trilostane occurs for 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, but also for 11-beta hydroxylase. Thus, 11-deoxycortisol levels build-up in dogs treated with trilostane. It is also apparent that other intermediate steroid levels increase (androstenedione, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and progesterone) in dogs treated with trilostane, which could be due to the 11-beta hydroxylase inhibition, and possibly 21-hydroxylase enzyme inhibition. The reason why only 11-deoxycortisol levels were increased in the above study may be due to the length of trilostane exposure (3-7 weeks), compared to dogs that are exposed to trilostane for extended periods. Trilostane reportedly offers effective control of Cushing’s syndrome, but the long-term effects of the elevated intermediate steroids remain ill-defined. Some dogs do have return of clinical signs of Cushing’s syndrome while on trilostane.

I think it’s a fact that a dog with typical cushing’s will have elevations in one or more of the intermediates. Therefore, if Dr. Oliver’s theory is correct, no dog should ever be treated with Trilostane. I wonder what one of our venerable members whose dog participated in the Vetoryl clinical trials years ago and did splendidly for six or seven years on the drug would have to say about that. Since Lysodren is banned in the UK and some European countries, Vetoryl is pretty much the only treatment available. So where is all the evidence that Vetoryl ultimately failed as a treatment? As far as I’m concerned, if a dog has pituitary dependent or adrenal dependent cushing’s, there is no reason why Trilostane should not be considered as a possible treatment. It goes without saying that Trilostane is certainly not an option for atypical cushing’s as it should never be given to a dog with normal cortisol.

I just didn't expect this to happen. Now I have to reevaluate Apollo's treatment and maybe email Dr. Oliver. This isn't getting easier. It confirms the increase skin problems and maybe even the hind leg weakness.

Sonja, I think an increase in intermediates can be expected with Trilostane and unless you know for a fact that Apollo’s cortisol is being controlled throughout the day, you cannot assume that the skin problems and hind leg weakness are being caused by the intermediates. I don't remember if Apollo is getting once a day dosing or twice a day dosing. If once a day, you should rule out elevated cortisol later in the day as being the real culprit.

Apollo has a black patch of skin on the side of his muzzle , two on his back also. So I am freaking out

I can relate to this. Lulu has had little black patches around her mouth and nose where hair was gone yet skin scrapes and punch biopsies were negative on two different occasions. I decided that if it happens again, I’m not going to spend the money again because I know it’s nothing serious and that it will probably remedy itself again. However, I believe you mentioned that Apollo’s patches were more like infected ingrown hairs. What did your vet say about them?

Glynda

addy

04-26-2011, 08:01 PM

Thanks to Glynda for explaining this so very well.:):):)

Love,
Addy

apollo6

04-27-2011, 01:11 AM

Dear Glynda, Addy and Harry's mom
Thank you for all the input . Will read. We are the ones going through this and know better first hand what is going on. Like you said Glynda, clinical trials are all fine and dandy but it doesn't mean in the real world it might not be so.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

04-27-2011, 10:51 PM

I am going to email Dr. Allen about Apollo's results in regards to the elevated hormones effect with Trilostane. I will also talk to my vet when he gets back from vacation on May 9.
Like Addy often says, I need to put cushing in the drawer for a short time.
It has been over a year since Apollo started this journey. His hind legs and front have gotten worse , the muscle wasting in the head area has also progressed. He has skin -calcius ? forgot what they are called on varies parts of his body. But his drinking is somewhat normal, his coat looks pretty good, and the last ultrasound did show his organs looked good. Maybe it will take some time restarting the TRilostane to see more improvements.
Like I always tell Apollo, we will fight this thing together. Tomorrow therapy for his legs.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-28-2011, 02:29 PM

Dear Sonja,

Lock up the dang drawer and have a coffee:D I hope Apollo has a good therapy day and Zoe said to tell him he better not going flirting with any small shih tzus:D:D:D

Hugs,
Addy

apollo6

04-29-2011, 08:52 PM

Dear Addy
You are a sweet heart. P.s Zoe , don't worry Apollo is too stuck up for her he only has paws for you. She jumps all over him and he just ignores her.
Well hear is a copy of the email from Dr.Allen and his response.

Ms. Honeyman, Because of the way Vetoryl (trilostane) works, we expect increases in the concentration of some of the precursor steroid hormones. For me, the more significant finding is that Apollo's rear leg muscle wasting and weakness have gotten worse after 1 month on Vetoryl. At this point, I think it makes sense, if it hasn't already been done, to have your veterinarian or a board-certified neurologist evaluate Apollo for non-Cushing's causes of muscle wasting and weakness. If you haven't seen improvement in his rear legs in 1 month, I don't think continuing Vetoryl will help Apollo unless it is controlling other signs of Cushing's. Regards, Tim

Timothy A. Allen, DVM,DACVIM
Technical Services Veterinarian
Dechra Veterinary Products.

My response
Thank you for your time
The Trilostane is controlling other Cushing signs. Will go over with my vet and have neurologist who has already seen Apollo may go back.

I am more overwhelmed then ever. In therapy the therapist said Apollo was building up a little more stamina, but she said we are trying to slow the progression of the muscle weakness. I talk to my vet May 9th. I am just beside myself.
Sonja and Apollo

addy

04-30-2011, 09:47 AM

I don't think continuing Vetoryl will help Apollo unless it is controlling other signs of Cushing's. Regards, Tim

Sonja, do you feel it is controlling his other Cushing symptoms?

I know you are terrified of Lysodren and with Apollo's pancreatitis and other tummy issues I am not sure what others will say about it even being an option for you. My IMS believes Zoe can do the load but I don't think she plans on following protocol.

Do you have your notes about when Apollos was evaluated by the neurologist?

I'm sorry I can't be more helpful. I have bronchitis and a migraine:eek:

Love,
Addy

littleone1

04-30-2011, 12:24 PM

Hi Sonja,

I know all of this is very upsetting. I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers that everything will improve for Apollo.

Rene

04-30-2011, 03:34 PM

Hi Sonja,

Snoop has cronic pancreatitis also. Not a single bout since starting the Lyso. I think getting a handle on her hormones has been key to the whole house of cards, for her!

Love,
Rene & Snoop

addy

04-30-2011, 03:54 PM

Snoop has chronic pancreatitis also. Not a single bout since starting the Lyso

This is really good to hear, Renee. It always helps us to compare notes.:) I'm glad to know for my Zoe too. She doesn't have pancreatitis but to know Snoop is doing well makes me feel better:D

Hang in there dear Sonja, we'll get there, both of us will.:D

Love,
Addy

Rene

04-30-2011, 05:45 PM

Thanks Addy,

Im sorry your not feeling well, Advair seems to be the majic bullet for my bronchitis otherwise it will hang for months!

Sonja, are you still giving Apollo the L-Glutamine? I found not only did it help with Snoops rear end stanima, I learned it helps repair the intestinal and digestive track. Maybe this also has helped with her bouts of pancreatitis.

We think of you and Apollo often and pray for some good news.

Love,

Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

05-01-2011, 01:04 AM

Dear Addy, Rene and Terry
Thank you for all your loving words.
Addy I am going to look up the notes on the neurologist. And this time around Apollo's issues are not resolving themselves like I want-the skin, dry peeling skin, skin pus filled abscesses around his paws(hair follicles) one on his face and two on his back with black skin. So I need to talk over with vet about the effect of Trilostane if it will improve , do I need to increase or do I need to start a different medication.
And then today the little guy jumps into the house from the garage:)( we have a little step to get into the house)Go figure?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

05-01-2011, 09:28 AM

And then today the little guy jumps into the house from the garage( we have a little step to get into the house

Apollo is like Zoe, they are trying to make us gray before our time and refuse to read the manual.:p

Zoe's has a thinning hair spot and I was checking it again last night and found weird rust colored pepper size spots and then
a bigger cluster:eek: Off to the IMS next week, I'm thinking it is the start of a skin infection.

Always something!!!!!!! Do your yoga deep breathing until you hear what your vet has to say.

Love,
Addy

lulusmom

05-01-2011, 09:41 AM

Hi Sonja,

Can you remind me if Apollo is on once daily or twice daily dosing. What were the results of his last acth stim test? I'd go back in your thread and find that information myself but wow, you have a really long thread and I am a really slow reader. :D

Rene

05-01-2011, 02:38 PM

Sonja,

Snoop's big black spot on her nose is filling in now...I will post pictures next week. We are going out of town again...but this time Snoop gets to go!!!

Some of the same issues that both Apollo and Snoop have are resolving with Snoop with her food change to the higher protien and the handle on the hormones. Hope your visit with the vet goes well!

Addy,

Weird rust colored spots could be yeast. Snoop had it. Was feeding food that was sweet potato baised and too many other foods that converted to sugar (carrots as treats, ect). Put a dab of white or apple cyder vinegar on them daily and see if they drop off in a few days. If so you have a yeast problem.

Huggs,

Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

05-01-2011, 05:32 PM

Dear Addy, Glynda, and Rene

Zoe's has a thinning hair spot and I was checking it again last night and found weird rust colored pepper size spots and then
a bigger cluster Off to the IMS next week, I'm thinking it is the start of a skin infection.
Can you remind me if Apollo is on once daily or twice daily dosing. What were the results of his last acth stim test?

The pepper size spots and clusters are ingrown hair follicles , Apollo gets them and yes it is part of the breakdown of the immune system with Cushings.
Glynda I will get back on Apollo's ACHT STIM TESTS. He is on once a day Trilostane 10mg. My gut feeling is it is not enough and the jaw trembling started again.
last ACHT STIM:
CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 45.7 NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 71.5 NORMAL 70.6-151.2
HOROMONES :
ANDROSTENEDIONE NG/ML BASELINE 4.08 NORMAL .05-.36
POST 6.78 NORMAL .24-2.90

ESTRADIOL PG/ML BASELINE 69.9 NORMAL 23.1-65.1
POST 73.9 NORMAL 23.3-69.4

PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 1.45 NORMAL .03-0.17
POST 3.13 NORMAL .22-1.45

17OH PROGESTERONE NG/ML BASELINE 5.68 NORMAL .08-.22
POST 16.8 NORMAL .25-2.63

ALDOSTERONE PG/ML baseline 39.5 NORMAL 11-139.9
POST 66.9 NORMAL 72.9-398.5

Rene you lucky dog and Snoop to get out of town again. When you get back please tell me once again what Snoop is on.
Addy I am going to look at the notes the neurologist wrote . Rushing out the door to take my Mom out for a Sunday drive.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

I may post the skin infections and a picture from 2003 when this all began.

Maya

05-02-2011, 05:28 PM

Dear Sonja
I hope you get your little pooch's problems sorted out soon. It does sound like his dose is a little on the low side, but then again I'm no expert.
hugs from leah and Maya

addy

05-03-2011, 02:34 PM

Hi Sonja and Apollo!!!!!!

Hope you are enjoying a Cushing vacation and it is still in the drawer;)

Happy Tuesday!!!

Love,
Addy

apollo6

05-03-2011, 07:32 PM

Dear Addy, Zoe and leah and Maya
Thanks for thinking about me.
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

05-04-2011, 05:22 PM

[QUOTE=apollo6;54011]
Rene you lucky dog and Snoop to get out of town again. When you get back please tell me once again what Snoop is on.

Dear Sonja & Apollo,

Thinking of you guys and checked in while on our trip...Snoop is having a ball. Will post pictures.

Was not sure what you wanted to know so here is everything:

Stevesrealfood.com (raw beef flavor) no treats...nothing else...something was setting her off. Animal Keeper/Poway/$30 10lbs frozen 1/4 inch cubes.

Lysodren 500 mg...broken down 4 times a week.

Total-Zymes Plus Pro-Biotics Chewable Tablets (a must with her...no gall bladder or spleen, these have been the only ones that seemed to helped). healthypets.com

Liver Support Factors/Biochem/Henry's Market

L-Glutamine 500 mg/Sun Harvest...Henry's Market
Rear end weakness (claims to repair muscle & blood protiens).
Pancreatitis/digestive health (claims to repair digestive tract).
Paralized eye/left side of face...much better (supports cerebal function).
(monday/wednesday/friday) open capsule put on food.

Oli-Vet 250mg/Vetri-Science...HealthyPets.com
Gum/Tooth/Yeast/Bladder Infections...Supports Immune Function.
(sunday/tuesday/thursday) open capsule put on food.

Snoop was on alot of other supplements and herbs when she took a turn for the worst. We did not know what what causing the problem. We took her off everything and slowly added back only what was absolutely needed. So, far this has been the ticket.

Love & Hope to you and our little boy,
Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

05-07-2011, 06:59 PM

Dear Rene, Addy and Glynda
thanks for all your input.
Apollo is on 10mg. Trilostane once a day. Vet gets back on Monday so I can go over adjusting Apollo's medication. With the high intermediate hormones, the skin infections, and the worsened leg weakness in front now also, I am at a loose what to do next.
Will let you know. Get discouraged very easily.
posting picture of Apollo and me at ocean. Apollo has his red USA cap on.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

05-10-2011, 02:45 PM

Hi Sonja,

Just stopping in to see how things went with the vet.

the skin infections, and the worsened leg weakness in front

Sounds like Zoe :(

I wish I had answers for you dear friend. I don't:confused:

What were the opinions on twice day dosing?

Hugs and Love,
Addy

Rene

05-10-2011, 08:16 PM

Hi Sonja,

Loved the pictures! What did the vet say?

Rene & Snoop

addy

05-11-2011, 02:28 PM

Hi Sonja,

Any news from the vet? How is Apollo? I hope you are hanging in there.

Love,
Addy

littleone1

05-11-2011, 02:55 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm also waiting to hear what your vet had to say.

I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers for you and Apollo.

apollo6

05-12-2011, 05:35 PM

Thank you to my three musketeers:Addy, Terry, Rene.
I will copy from my notes what Vet and Dechra said. Also now told should give Apollo melatonin and Flax hull lignan. Any suggestions?
April-may 2011
THYROID, INTERMEDIATE HORMONES, MUSCLE WEAKNESS, SKIN SORES
1.INTERMEDIATE HOROMONE RESULTS.:
The thyroid levels are good after being on Trilostane since March 2011.
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 7:25 AM
To: shoneyma@san.rr.com
Subject: Intermediate Hormone Elevations

Ms. Honeyman, Because of the way Vetoryl (Trilostane) works; we expect increases in the concentration of some of the precursor steroid hormones. For me, the more significant finding is that Apollo's rear leg muscle wasting and weakness have gotten worse after 1 month on Vetoryl. At this point, I think it makes sense, if it hasn't already been done, to have your veterinarian or a board-certified neurologist evaluate Apollo for non-Cushing's causes of muscle wasting and weakness. If you haven't seen improvement in his rear legs in 1 month, I don't think continuing Vetoryl will help Apollo unless it is controlling other signs of Cushing's. Regards, Tim
Thank you for your time
The Trilostane is controlling other Cushing signs. Will go over with my vet and have neurologist who has already seen Apollo may go back.

2. Addy:
Glynda-K9CUSHINGS
Here is the thing, I know some members are using melatonin, lignans along with Trilostane but I have not been able to find much on the subject. Glynda wants me to put Zoe on a low dose of it because of her colitis. But the melatonin and lignans returned her estradiol to normal in a very short time.

3.
Trilostane treatment frequently results in increased estradiol levels and this may be a reason why less than effective treatment with the drug sometimes occurs. Trilostane. Enzyme inhibition by Trilostane occurs for 3-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, but also for 11-beta hydroxylase. Thus, 11-deoxycortisol levels build-up in dogs treated with Trilostane. It is also apparent that other intermediate steroid levels increase (androstenedione, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and progesterone) in dogs treated with Trilostane, which could be due to the 11-beta hydroxylase inhibition, and possibly 21-hydroxylase enzyme inhibition.
4.Intermediate hormones and muscle weakness
May 10, 2011
Discussion with Dr. Feinberg regarding results of Apollo’s April 15-21, 2011, Thyroid, ACHT STIM AND INTERMEDIATE HOROMONE RESULTS.:
The thyroid levels are good after being on Trilostane since March 19, 2011
1. Acht stim test within normal range
2. Trilostane does increase intermediate hormones:
3. Intermediate hormones are very elevated.
a. Estradiol typically increases liver involvement (hepatomegaly, steroid hepatopathy, increased ALP AND ALT) and PU/PD. MELATONIN AND LIGNANS MAY BE BEST TREATMENT APPROACH.
b. ALDOSTERONE- in normal to low range- frequently indicates primary adrenal tumor.
4. Keep dosage at 10mg. for now based on previous side effects when increased to 12.5mg. in November 2010( jaw trembling, throw up twice) retest in 2-3 months –ACHT STIM, INTERMEDICATE HOROMONES AND FULL BLOOD PANEL
5. Based on recommendations from UNIV OF TENNESSEE, DR. JACK OLIVER, start melatonin (to decrease androstenedione and testosterone conversion into estradiol) and lignan (to decrease estradiol levels) with the Trilostane.
6. Still dealing with muscle atrophy and skin issues, starting to have minor jaw trembling again.
7. May 13, 2011 going to holistic vet for acupuncture and discuss adding lignan and melatonin to diet and supplements, medication already taking.
In three months do an ACHT STIM,INTERMEDIATE HORMONE AND FULL BLOOD PANEL
The continued weakness, stiffness and sometimes legs just giving out has me very discouraged.

Wish I could say things are getting better.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

lulusmom

05-12-2011, 06:37 PM

Hi Sonja,

I just wanted to make sure that everybody is aware that what I said to Addy was that if Zoe was my dog, I would opt to give her a low dose of trilostane, given her chronic colitis. I wanted to clarify that so that nobody gets the idea that I am qualified to do anything other than offer my layperson's opinions based on my own experience. Now if we are talking insurance, after 41 years in the business, I am overqualified. :D

I also wanted to let you know that when Lulu was treating with Trilostane I asked Dr. Oliver about giving her melatonin and lignans. H said he didn't have a lot of experience with the combination but he didn't seen any reason why I couldn't.

Glynda

addy

05-12-2011, 06:44 PM

My fault Glynda- I should have said you "suggested" it may be an option for Zoe because of her colitis. I was writing faster than my brain worked.:rolleyes::eek:

But hey, you do know a lot and we love you for it!!!!!

Love,
Addy

Rene

05-13-2011, 02:05 AM

Also now told should give Apollo melatonin and Flax hull lignan. Any suggestions?

Sonya,

Thanks for the update! Sounds like Apollo got some good thyroid results! Now if we can just get a handle on those hormones...for Karma's sake!

Was there a specific reason "Flax hull" lignans were recommended over HMR? I prefered the HMR because of Snoops of pancreatic issues. I also found that flax products (hulls, ect.) and oils (salmon, flax, ect.) were also aggravating her skin condition and black spots. HMR seemed to be a purer easier assimilated way of getting the lignans in without disrupting her delicate system.

I was using "Health Concerns" brand "NuLignan" (avaiable online)
25 mg each tablet: (You could cut it in half for Apollo.)
Patented Extract of 7-hydroxymatairesinol HMRLignans extracted from Norway Spruce Trees

I also found Melatonin by Source Naturals at Henry's. It is orange flavored and comes in 1mg, 2mg or 3mg. Snoopie ate them like candy.

We haven't given the lignans or melatonin since starting the Lysodren. They didn't work because she was so elevated across the board and she needed extra help. The Lyso along with the food change and deworming seemed to do the trick.

Love,
Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

05-13-2011, 02:54 PM

Dear Rene, Glynda and Rene
thanks for the input. Rene will look into the products and your suggestions. I am going to holistic Vet today and will check about adding lignan and melatonin to what Apollo is already taking. Will ask if the Salmon oil may be aggravating Apollo's skin conditions(black spots). Like Snoopy , Apollo has had past pancreatic issues also. Wish I had a miracle for his legs. Still has the stomach/intestinal gurgling.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

05-13-2011, 03:45 PM

Hi Sonja,

If Apollo is having tummy issues, you may want to use the HMR lignans. The SDG lignans may cause some pups issues because of the fiber.

I do know some members are using Trilostane and lignans and melatonin. I was not sure where Dr. Oliver stood with that as I just remembered the posts from Dena and Saving Simon.

I hope you have a nice weekend in spite of it all. I think your little boy needs a ride in his pretty red stroller.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

05-15-2011, 05:17 PM

Dear Addy
Thank you for the input. Will look into .
Will post later notes from Vet.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

05-17-2011, 06:15 PM

Here is were I am with Apollo medications:
May 13th-Dr. Keith Weingardt
Due to skin black spots( 2 + new one on back, one on side of face with little black dots(ingrown hair) . Apollo’s body may be overloaded from all supplements(or is it another aspect of cushing, or decide to increase Trilostane?)
1. Stop all supplements(herbal, salmon oil, vitamins) for two weeks then call Dr Keith around May 27th for update
2. Continue low dosage Trilostane 10mg. once a day,
3. start Melatonin 1mg. for one week, then two mg.(one in morning, one in evening. Third week go to 3mg. once a day.
4. Start HMR LIGNAN(NEED TO ORDER)
5. Continue with Probiotics for Apollo’s stomach problems
6. After two weeks see how skin condition is or if any changes.
Just waiting for some improvement. Still doing the physical therapy and little exercises each day to keep Apollo walking and standing. He still hasn't paid me for my physical therapy sessions.:D
Need to put some humor into it sometimes.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

lulusmom

05-17-2011, 07:04 PM

Hi Sonja,

You mentioned that the last acth stimulation test was within normal range. As I recall, the lab lost the stim test you had done in early April so you had to redo it on April 25th or thereabouts? Can you please post the actual results of that stim test?

Glynda

littleone1

05-18-2011, 02:58 PM

Sonja, I really wish there was an answer for everything. I'm keeping you and Apollo in my thoughts and prayers that everything will start to improve.

apollo6

05-18-2011, 10:07 PM

Dear Glynda and Terry
Thank you for checking in on me
Glynda, they did lose the Acht Stim but found out it was sent to Dr Oliver by mistake. That is how we found out about the high intermediate horomones.
The ACHT STIM is posted below. It is different then the usual one I get.
CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 45.7 NORMAL 2.0-56.5
CORTISOL POST 71.5 NORMAL 70.6-151.2
The second reading was still a little high.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo
Can any one post where to get HMR LIGNAN(FLAXSEED HULL)

Rene

05-19-2011, 12:18 AM

Hi Sonja,

The HMR are the not the flaxseed lignans. The HMR's are extracted from Norway spruce trees and you don't have the tummy troubles you can get with the SDG (flax) lignans. I think that is what you meant though.

I was using the Health Concerns NuLignan brand. If you Google Shopping "Health Concerns NuLignan" I think you can get it for about $15.00 with free shipping right now to our area....or try this link

http://pureformulas.com/nulignan-90-tablets-by-health-concerns.html?CAWELAID=532163193

Hope that helps...give our boy a kiss.

Rene & Snoop

addy

05-19-2011, 09:26 AM

Hi Sonja,

I am hoping a break from all the supplements help out our little guy. It is so hard to follow all of it sometimes. My own IMS admitted dog's hormones fluctuate just like humans. I guess we have to decide to subscribe to a theory, believe in it or not and follow that theory's thinking for treatment. So many different opinions from leading DMVs make it quite confusing, doesn't it?

If only they could talk:):):)

Hang in there, you have been doing really well and Apollo has the best care from you.:):)

Love,
Addy

Harley PoMMom

05-19-2011, 10:09 AM

Can any one post where to get HMR LIGNAN(FLAXSEED HULL)

Here is a link to a Lignans list which was compiled by Dr. Oliver's lab: LIGNANS (Phytonutrients). (http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/20100810-LIGNAN-Write-Up-Revision03.pdf)

Love and hugs,
Lori

Squirt's Mom

05-19-2011, 10:39 AM

CORTISOL NG/ML BASELINE 45.7 NORMAL 2.0-56.5

CORTISOL POST 71.5 NORMAL 70.6-151.2

The second reading was still a little high.

Hi Sonja,

Is this the second reading you say was a little high or is there another test result since this one was done? I ask because the values listed here are not high at all - they are within the normal ranges. If anything, the post is close to being too low. The lowest normal value given is 70.6 and Apollo's post result is barely over that at 71.5 - not even a full point over the lowest norm. So if there is another ACTH that shows a true high reading, it would help to see that as well. At this point, I am confused why you think these results are high. :confused: Of course, confusing me isn't at all difficult to do! :o:)

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

lulusmom

05-19-2011, 01:33 PM

Hi Sonja,

If Apollo received his daily dose within 4 to 6 hours of the stim test, then a post stim number of 71.5 ng/ml (7.15 ug/dl) may still be too high for a cushdog that is symptomatic. It is also possible could be that Apollo would do better on twice daily dosing. If his post cortisol is that high within 4 to 6 hours after dosing, it is going to climb higher later in the day which could be the reason his muscle weakness has never gotten better. Has your IMS ever mentioned this possibility?

Squirt's Mom

05-19-2011, 03:29 PM

Can someone please set me straight? I just am not seeing a high cortisol reading in these results! What am I missing? Are the norms wrong? Are my old eyes just playing tricks on me? :o:confused:

************************************************** ***********

:o:o:o OK! I know what I am missing....my MIND!

7.15ug/dl for a pup being treated with Trilo IS getting up there! The norms given are for a pup who does NOT have Cushing's - those norms are for a normal dog.

geez......another brain fart, folks! :o:o:o

addy

05-19-2011, 04:27 PM

I don"t either but I'm a rooky;);)

Addy

Squirt's Mom

05-19-2011, 06:20 PM

Now that my head is out of my yoohoo, :rolleyes: let me explain why these levels ARE considered elevated for Apollo.

The normal ranges listed by the lab are those for a non-cushinoid dog, OR a cush pup who is NOT on treatment. When blood work is sent in to the labs for an ACTH, they don't usually know whether the subject is under treatment or not so they give the normal values they would use for a pup who does not have Cushing's.

If this were the first ACTH Apollo had had, then the suspicion would be that he does not have Cushing's based on these results. Since Apollo IS under treatment with Trilostane, then the post value of 7.15ug/dl is approaching the upper limit of acceptable values. A pup on Trilo can have a post as high as 9.1ug/dl as long as signs are under control.

I hope that clears up any confusion my confusion caused. I can only blame it on SCBS - Swiss Cheese Brain Syndrome. :o

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

apollo6

05-19-2011, 06:54 PM

Dear Rene, Addy, Leslie, Glynda
Will get back with you later.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

05-20-2011, 09:40 AM

Happy Friday dear Sonja, I hope you and the pups have a great weekend!!!!!!

Lot's of Sonja's Sunday Specials!!!!!!!!

Zoe send kisses to her little man, Apollo!!!!

Love,
Addy

apollo6

05-20-2011, 05:19 PM

Dear Addy, Lori, Leslie, Glynda, Terry
You are the greatest. I will post later on.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

05-21-2011, 08:48 PM

Hi everyone

Will run the muscle weakness by my vet. Glynda your input about the twice daily dosage may help.
Apollo is on once daily dosage. When he went off the Trilostane the weakness got worse. Restarted same dosage in March 2011. Been less then two months since restarted Trilostane 10mg.( it did lower Apollo cortisone and thyroid reading is normal again).
Glynda and Leslie, thank you for your input on the second cortisol reading: for a cushing pup 71.6 or 7.16 (norm 70.6) is within the range, but not for a non cushing dog.
Vet wants me to wait three months for recheck : Acht stim, Intermediate hormones and full blood panel, to see how adding in melatonin and Hmr lignans(just ordered will get next week) effect Apollo. I have an appointment JUly 20th. Nervous about waiting that long.

See we have a lot of new members.
Today is a little over a year when I first found you. It has been quite a journey-tears, losses(my old Apollo), acceptance(it is what it is) adjustments( no more walks, mini steps, red stroller, physical therapy), fears( how long), hope( one year and Apollo is still here) forgiveness( trying to forgive myself for medications that may have harmed him) love( he still is my little boy) faith( believing in little miracles- Apollo jumping up a step) support(all of you guiding me and holding my hand)
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

littleone1

05-22-2011, 01:32 PM

There's always hope, Sonja. Sometimes it just takes time. I'm hoping and praying that Apollo will be able to do things he use to do before.

addy

05-22-2011, 02:01 PM

Honey, you just stop this talk of making Apollo sick, it is not your fault. Any medications you gave him, you gave him in good faith.

Anticipatory grief has its stages and I think we all suffer from it to some degree.

You'll get there with sweet Apollo. Hey, after all, I can't do things I did 10 years ago;);) It's okay if are sweet babies can't either.

Love,
Addy

apollo6

05-22-2011, 03:59 PM

Dear Addy and Terry
Thanks for the loving words.
Lets not even go there about the body parts that have gone south, the eyes that need glasses, the skin that doesn't bounce back.
I may be 58 but my mind is 28.:D
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

05-24-2011, 02:56 AM

My Sweet Sonja,

There is hope, of some sort..I guess. Snoop and I were in same desperate cycle and we have found a way out, for now.

Find the con-coc-tion that your gut tells you Apollo needs the Most!

Funny thing...about the step, and Apollo jumping up. They play us a bit too, I think. When we go away and Snoop can't go she stays at her second home, with our dear friends. I notice when we are picking her up and visiting that Snoops gets up and down with ease when mom isn't around to help her!

Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

05-25-2011, 05:07 PM

Dear Rene
I think you are right. Apollo got on the couch by himself when I was working, don't know how. It is a mystery?:p
Sonja and Apollo

addy

05-25-2011, 09:30 PM

Oh Sonja,

I think it is great he was up on the sofa. The boy has spunk!!!!!!

Love,'Addy

apollo6

05-26-2011, 01:39 AM

Dear Addy
Thank you
I am still dealing with the weakness in both back and front legs and the black spots. Wish we all had a miracle.
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

05-26-2011, 04:05 AM

Hi Sonja,

I did the math on the Juven. One of those packets can be divided into fourteen daily servings which is 1/2 teaspoon each or 1/4 teaspoon twice a day. That is equal to:

500mg L-Glutamine
500mg L-Arginne
86mg HMB
564mg Carbohydrate
71mg Sugars
14mg Calcium

I see my Dr. tomorrow and will see if he agrees with that rough conversion and what he thinks of the product. I didn't give Snoop her other supplements that have similar ingredients and gave her a 1/4 teaspoon with her dinner and water. She didn't seem to notice. Hoping for that miracle...will let you know.

Posted the pictures of Snoop's and Apollo's play date...what a hoot!

Rene & Snoopie

Rene

05-27-2011, 01:24 AM

Hi Sonja,

Well, I guess the taste didn't set well will Snoop. She woudn't go near her breakfast because she thought I put something in it! I offered her something else and she gobbled it up...she is a smart little bugger. They have it in an unflavored version but I may must just opt for the supplements she was already on beacuse they were working so well.

How is our romeo today?

Rene & Snoopie

addy

05-27-2011, 09:43 AM

Happy Memorial Day Sonja!!!!!

I hope your weekend is filled with sunshine and lots of Sunday Specials:D:D:D

I have to work today:mad::mad:

I still have to go check out the photos of your play date with Renee and Snoopy. Zoe says long distance romances don't work when there is local competition:D::D:D;););) Snoopy is just too darn cute for Apollo to resist:D:D:D

Seriously dear friend and sister in battle, I hope you put Cushings in the drawer this weekend and just enjoy.

Love,
Addy

addy

05-27-2011, 02:53 PM

Hi Sonja,

I was reading throught the question and answer thread with Dr. Bruyette and found his comment on Trilostane and intermediates:

Any adrenolytic agent or enzyme blocker can raise steroid intermediates to some degree. Whether this is an issue clinically depends on the given dog, the dose of medication used, the duration of treatment and concurrent diseases and/or medications.

Didn't know if you had seen it so thought I would copy it for you.

Hugs,
Addy

apollo6

05-28-2011, 12:12 AM

Dear Rene
Thanks for all the input. May try Walgreen by me to get the Juven. Will have to look up the other supplements you suggested. My notes are pretty bad.
Dear Addy thanks for the input. I will post our play date. But between you and Zoe, you can ask Snoopy, Apollo is a pervert, a dirty old man. And I know Snoopy and Zoe have high standards, nothing on the first date!:D
Now try and tell Apollo that. I was so embarrassed. Maybe it is the elevated hormones?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

Rene

05-28-2011, 04:11 AM

Hi Sonja,

Don't try anything without running it by your vet with all of Apollo's issues.

Snoop is alrealy on supplements that contain the L-Arginne, L-Glutamine and HMB and she has no problems with it even with her pancreatitus and renal issues, which have also seemed to resolved. So, trying this was no problem for her...so far....but I don't know about Apollo.

If he gives you the green light you can try some of mine first to see if Apollo will even like it. Snoop didn't care for it in her food so I gave it to her in some milk tonite and she didn't seem to mind, but it may be a different story tomorrow!

Rene & Snoop

The other supplements I mentioned that we have tried or on now are:

Vetri-Science/Canine Plus Senior/Bite-Sized Chews (Broad Spectrium Multi)
http://www.entirelypets.com/canineplussenior60.html

Vetri-Science/Vetri-Liver Canine/Bite-Sized Chews (Liver Support)
http://www.entirelypets.com/gluta-dmg-ls.html

Vetri-Science/Renal Essentials (Kidney Health)
http://www.entirelypets.com/vereesfordo9.html

Vetri-Science/Oli-Vet 250mg (Immune Support) (Gum/Bladder/Skin Infections)
http://www.entirelypets.com/olleafex.html

Total-Zymez Plus Pro-Biotics Chewable Tablets
http://www.entirelypets.com/totalzymes90tabs.html

All from entirelypets.com

Biochem/Liver Support Factors/Broad Spectrim Liver Support w/Milk Thistle and SamE (L-Methioine)
Henrys Market Place or online.

apollo6

05-30-2011, 12:56 AM

Thanks

will run by my vet before try.
Apollo is letting off stink bombs left and right.:eek:
And the stomach gurgling is starting up.
Now he is starting with the jaw trembling, minor but still.
When will my little boy have some normality.
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

05-30-2011, 04:39 AM

Sonja,

Snoop did too after the play date, really bad! I was wonder if it was the kibble they were eating out of her ball, the treats you had or maybe something they got into at the park. They both had mostly the kibble from Snoops ball so I am wondering it that was it! She is fine now.

You will get there. Decide what he needs most and make small changes towards that improving that.

Hope you and Apollo are getting out and enjoying the holiday weekend!

Hugs,
Snoopie & Rene

apollo6

06-01-2011, 10:54 PM

Apollo has been on the Melatonin now for 2weeks, 3mg. and I started him on the HMR LIGNAN ON Saturday, plus the 10mg. of Trilostane.
My concern is the muscle wasting, the weakness in both front and back, back more so, and the 3 black skin spots on his back-some hair is trying to grow through but still black dots where hair follicles should be. Also he has a large one on the side of his face, peel the scab so hair can start coming through, when squeeze gray stuff comes out. Worried about this, just feel need to do do something else. And he has so much gas.:eek:
His last stim was within normal range for cushing dog, but the intermediates were high( read could be part of muscle wasting issue)
But baffled by the black skin batches? Does he need more Trilostane to resolve these issues, or are the hormones going up because of the trilostane. Adding the HMRLignan and Melatonin will it help lower the horomones and how do I resolve the drunken sailor walk?

I am weary of people asking me what is wrong with Apollo when he struggles to walk. My one neighbor is an angel and cheers when she see Apollo walking or trying to run.:) It helps.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

06-02-2011, 09:42 AM

Hi Sonja,

The melatonin and lignans can sometimes take 3-6 months to bring down estradiol and the other intermediates. Zoe has the drunken sailor walk too off and on but for some reason it gets better when I reduce her metronidazole.:confused::confused: IMS did simple nerve check on back legs for her yesterday and it was fine.

The skin issues, I can't comment. The rusty spots on Zoe was oil from a benign growth that I can't remember the name of and IMS said leave it alone dont try to clean it.

Funny thing, she told me she thought Zoe looked great. I think she looks awful. I remember your vet saying that to you. I guess we look at them differently than they do;););)

If the melatonin and lignans work, it will take some time.

Hugs,
Addy

apollo6

06-02-2011, 03:59 PM

Dear Addy
Thanks for your input. I want a quick fix. It has only been two weeks since Apollo started the Melatonin, 3mg now and he just started the Hmrlignans on Saturday. I am nervous about waiting until July for next round of tests. I have had good input from you, Glynda( maybe twice daily dosage) and Rene(changing diet adding some new things. The waiting is killing me.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

06-02-2011, 08:16 PM

Me too, I want it better right away!!!!!

We are an impatient lot, are we not?:D:D:D:D

And Apollo and Zoe are totally oblivious to it all;););)

love ya,
Addy

apollo6

06-04-2011, 06:49 PM

Dear Addy
You are so right about our fur balls-Zoe and Apollo.
I will be having a heart attack about Apollo and then he lets a stick bomb like everything is okay.:eek:
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

06-05-2011, 10:09 PM

Hi Best Friend,

I hope you and the pups had a nice weekend. Thank you for checking on me and Zoe. I love the moral support.:):):)

And you have always given me that dear friend. I thank you for always being there.

Love to you and Apollo and Karma.

Addy, Zoe and Koko

apollo6

06-05-2011, 10:31 PM

Dear Addy
Thanks
have a lot to go over with vet about supplements and muscle wasting. Rene has given me some very good input.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

06-07-2011, 05:07 PM

Wish I could say something positive.
The newest thing is Apollo's front teeth are a little loose, the gums are separating from the teeth, and bleeding, and he has a foul smell from this area. I am trying to lightly massage the gums and keep clean. Will run by holistic vet on Friday and may have to make appointment with regular vet about this. It just seems to never end.

The little guy got up on the couch when I wasn't looking.:D He is a trooper .
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

addy

06-07-2011, 05:27 PM

Sorry to hear that, Sonja, maybe he has a bit of an infection in his gums. The Merry Go Round ride sometimes won't allow us to get off:(

I hope your visit with the holistic vet goes well.

Thinking of you.

Love,
Addy

Rene

06-07-2011, 05:58 PM

Horray for the little man "getting up in the world!" Good news!!!

With horses we look to hoof quality as the reflection of the overal health. I believe that the gum quality of our fur kids can tell us many things about their health.

I hope the vet can suggest a good immune support for our little guy.

Thanks for being there for us Sonja,
Rene & Snoopie

apollo6

06-08-2011, 02:46 PM

Dear Addy and Rene
On the lighter side, Apollo is trying to avoid me, because I am always checking every inch of his body. Apollo quote" Here Mom comes again trying to poke me, better run for cover!":eek: I found another small black spot. I just wonder if he needs to be on an antibiotic to help him. Monitoring the teeth. Will keep you posted.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

apollo6

06-10-2011, 04:43 PM

I have been finger brushing Apollo's teeth especially the front teeth and dipping a swab with hydrogen peroxide to clean out the gums in the front that are separating, also flossing the front upper and lower to keep clean. Seems a little better. But now I am dealing with the front paws.. He bends his front paws backward and can fall on all fours sometimes. I am checking about using a muscle stimulator( Tens unit) to help with his legs.
It just seems like it is always something. I am on high alert all the time.:(:eek: And dealing with a failing business just adds to the stress. But on the bright side, I have the third humming bird this year with a nest in my moon wind chime.:p
I am going to holistic vet today to go over issues with Apollo and see what input I get. Is the Trilostane working? or making the muscle wasting worse? Now Apollo has jaw trembling again. Yesterday it seemed longer then usual the trembling since starting back on the Trilostane.
sonja and Apollo

addy

06-10-2011, 08:09 PM

Oh Sonja,

If Apollo sometimes can still jump on the sofa, that is pretty good news right there. People do report muscle weakness with the Trilostane sometimes.

Have you noticed if his missteps and trembling occurs during a certain part of the day?

So far Zoe seems to perk up at night and I can only think it is because her cortisol is going up and the Vetoryl is wearing off.
I think she has the yuckies (cortisol withdrawal) around 2-3 hours after taking the capsule. We will have to wait and see, it has been such a short time and she was off it for a day.

I'm glad the peroxide and flossing are helping Apollo's teeth.

Our business perked up for 3 months and now seems to be slowing down again. I'm dealing with the aftermath of the "busy months" production is too slow and could not keep up.:eek::eek: What a mess.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I hope you have a nice weekend. Time to go see the ocean with the pretty red stroller.

Love ya,
Addy

apollo6

06-11-2011, 06:19 PM

Dear Addy
Thank you for your kind words.
A lot of sadness hearing about the loss of Dr. Oliver, he was our mentor.
Apollo is now on V Biotene antiseptic oral gel to be applied to his front upper and lower gums to hopefully heal his gums and teeth in front. Still has foul smell from that area. Now vet says maybe he has a rotten tooth? But all his teeth look fine. Now holistic has him on two new medications, Biotherapeutic drops for cushings, gall/horm/berb/ other has gal/hep/sol/thy/coenz/ubi( don't know what it means, but will be looking up). Also on Mesosilver for skin infections. The jaw trembling seems to last longer when he does get( I feel it is worse than last time around with Trilostane) He throw up a lot of yellow vile this morning before his breakfast.
His walk is unsteady, but I try to exercise him everyday. Now I am going to buy and use a muscle stimulator(tens unit) to maintain what muscle he has left in his legs. Vet said his muscles have redistributed, stronger in front and in back some have built up some have wasted more. He still has a light in his eyes, is very vocal and wags his tail, still does his tricks. With this disease you have to cherish the good moments as Addy wrote "Just a Friday"
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

MBK

06-11-2011, 08:35 PM

Hi Sonja -

Sorry to hear about Apollo's dental issue. Good for you for catching it so early! I felt awful when I didn't realize Alivia was having teeth problems until her face suddenly swelled up. Poor little girl had two absessed teeth with infection to the bone. The pain must have been awful and yet she was so stoic. Her teeth were clean and looked fine, so be careful. After her face swelled, I could see a little irritation on her gums but it would have been very easy to miss.

I hope the gel works for him and it is nothing more. You take such good care of him! He is a lucky little dog!

littleone1

06-11-2011, 10:08 PM

Hi Sonja,

I'm sorry to hear that Apollo is having more issues. Is it possible that he might have an abscess, and this might be the reason for the bad odor?

I'm sending positive thoughts and healing prayers that Apollo will soon show some improvement. There always seems to something going on besides cushings. I know that Corky had so many things going on before he ever had any cushings symptoms. It seems like some of our babies are prone to getting different things.

apollo6

06-11-2011, 11:33 PM

Dear Mary beth and Terry
thank you for your input.
On the postive side, my little boy did some running outside around the house this evening which was so nice to see.:p
Sonja and Apollo

Rene

06-12-2011, 04:15 AM

Hi Sonja,

We will get through this...but glad to hear the little boy was "feeling his oats" tonite!

I don't know if this is of any help...

How to stop your dog throwing up bile...

Don't feed your dog really large meals - it's better to feed your pooch on a more frequent basis such as three smaller meals - this is better for your dog's stomach as it helps to prevent a build up of bile and gastric juices.

If you have two dogs or even more - feed them separately as it cause your dog more stress if they have to protect their food - which will make them more stressed, eat faster and increase the risk of vomiting bile.

If your dog has drunk too much water this can increase the risk of him throwing up bile especially if they haven't had the opportunity to sweat the moisture from their body.

Don't walk your dog or let him run around straight after a meal - leave it for a couple of hours before they have exercise as this can also increase the likelihood of your dog throwing up.

Dry food is also not the best dog food if your pooch is particularly susceptible to a build up of bile. If you are going to feed your dog kibble pour some hot water over it and leave it for 15 minutes so that the kibble soaks up the water. If you don't want to feed your dog kibble stick to wet dog food. The problem with dry food and kibble is that when it is fed without the addition of water it will soak up water when it is in your dog's stomach which will cause it to expand and may lead to your dog vomiting bile.

Your vet may prescribe some Tagamet, Pepcid, Zantac as they help to control the amount of bile that your dog produces - which will then lower the risk of your dog throwing up.
What I have found with Snoop is the L-Glutamine probably was key to healing her digestive tract. The vet said it can be given several times over its daily preventive dose in acute digestive upset or an pancreatic emergency. If our little guy is experiencing digestive issues and it is causing the bile problem maybe it is worth asking your vet, how much he can take.

The Oli-Vet 250 mg was also specifically for healing Snoops gums...so far so good...the estimate on doing the dental surgery was quiet expensive and under the circumstances, not an option.

You are a special doting mommy...Apollo shirly loves you!

Rene & Snoop