Intro

[Betty]

Hi everyone. I saw the link to this site when it was posted on a different forum for someone else. My tale is sad, I lost my dog and found out at the same time that she had an adrenal tumour. Sugar was an 8 1/2 year old Sheltie and because I'd heard of other shelties with Cushings I am wondering how common it might be? I also know next to nothing about it so will try and make sense of it via the posts and articles I can read here. Thank you for allowing me to join this forum.

[lulusmom]

Hi Betty and welcome to the forum.

I am so sorry that you lost Sugar. To answer your question, I think most of us who've been around here a while would tell you that Cushing's is not uncommon. I am one of a few who have two cushdogs so I tend to think its a lot more common than most people know. I also think that a lot of dogs with cushing's go undiagnosed because the pet owner attributes the symptoms to old age.

I am so glad that you joined our community and I do hope that you tell us all about your beloved Sugar.

Glynda

[Betty]

Thanks for the welcome, Glynda. I would be willing to bet that I may have had two dogs with Cushings also, both shelties, which is why I wondered if it is common in general, or in my breed. I had a bad time of it when I lost Sugar. One vet too slow to act - she had pyometra - and let's just say that the vet who did operate has no love for him. I could have done without knowing how much those 2 vets dislike each other.
Anyway, you are quite right, in hindsight there were things I had attributed to her ageing, to maybe poor construction, or thought they indicated other things like hypothyroidism. She didn't seem to drink more, her appetite was voracious, but then at feeding time here the shelties all act like sharks in a feeding frenzy. LOL. Being a very active breed their appetite is always keen. A dead giveaway to everyone here on the forum would have been that I had wondered why her head wasn't as pretty as it used to be, was it changing due to her advancing age? Then after I had her put to sleep, (the vet couldn't save her) and the vet had told me she had found an adrenal tumor, I looked up Cushings and of course there was that bit about the head taking on a skeletal appearance. The adjective I couldn't have thought of, but spot on. It was all vague though, just feelings that she had problems brewing. You think you have time and sadly it's not always the case.

[labblab]

Dear Betty,

I want to welcome you as well, and to tell you how sorry I am that you have recently lost Sugar. Unanswered questions in a situation like this can be so very unsettling. So please do feel free to read and talk to us about anything that you are wondering about.

Additionally, if you should ever wish to do so, we want to invite you to begin a thread for Sugar (and also your other little sheltie) on our special "In Loving Memory (http://www.k9cushings.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8)" forum. You are free to write anything you want there. Some people add formal memorials, others just add some thoughts about their feelings or memories. Anything and everything is just fine.

Also, you will see that a part of that forum is a collection of "Remembering" threads in which we honor each Cushpup who has passed. If you would like to tell us the dates of passing, it will be our privilege to add your pups to the memorial list.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss. No matter how much or how little time we are allowed to share with them, we are never ready to let our pups go.

Many (((hugs))),
Marianne

[Betty]

Marianne, thank you for the welcome. I feel I should read all your links first before I bother anyone, for instance I got sidetracked , I just read that article by Jean Dodds about aggression in hypothyroid dogs. Is hypothyroidism linked to Cushings? I own a male sheltie, Dundee, that is on treatment for his underactive thyroid. Now I wonder if he mightn't end up with Cushings too?
I feel that I am just going to ask dumb questions if I don't do some reading first. Or ask questions that will waste your precious time. I will take up your kind offer for me to include Sugar in the In Loving Memory forum, thank you. Not immediately, but I will. Thank you for your kind thoughts.
Hugs
Betty

[Buffaloe]

Hi Betty,

I am so sorry you lost your Sugar. Shepherds, shelties, those types of dogs seem to get adrenal tumors more often than most other breeds. That's just my impression.

I wanted to say that I really hope you don't feel badly about not finding Sugar's adrenal tumor. I am of the strong opinion that only a small fraction of the dogs with adrenal tumors are ever diagnosed. It is such a difficult diagnosis. My shepherd/collie mix was finally diagnosed with an adrenal tumor but only after two long months of tests, some very sophisticated.

I know Sugar lived a great life. All the best to you.

Ken

[Betty]

Thank you for your kind words, Ken. The basic question I want an answer for is why do they get Cushings? I feel that may be unanswerable, or as hard as explaining why they become epileptic or hypothyroid etc.. So, I am just glad to be able to read of people's experiences here so in future I don't miss the signs. The vet who tried to save Sugar said that they are taught that there are five Ps associated with Cushings, and whenever they see any of them, they should look for Cushings. Pyometra, peritonitis, pancreatitis, pyoderma and pneumonia. Now, the other sheltie I lost had survived pyometra(she wasn't speyed when I wanted her done) also a bout of pneumonia, she was fat around the stomach(in an unusual sort of way IMO), she didn't take heat well, she was a very itchy dog, her coat was starting to thin, and no-one thought about Cushings? Maybe I should ask vets in future to consider my shelties as all possibly being cushingoid? Especially the one with hypothyroidism?
Interesting that you think this type of breed more likely to get this type of Cushings, I might see if we can gain more information on it via the sheltie lists. I know Sugar had a great life but at the end, when it mattered, I felt she was let down.

[marie adams]

Hi Betty,

Welcome!! I have an Australian Shepherd 11.5 yrs old who was just diagnosed this past February. She has had none of the P's (not sure of what some of them are), but she has a majority of the symptoms associated with Cushings. Her blood panel only showed problems with the liver which is connected with the Cushings. The vet just kept telling me she is getting old so in my opinion vets do not always know, but should educate themselves a little more with the symptoms; I had to tell them what she had so they would test her (found it by researching some of her symptonms and wow there it was a link to Cushings Disease and all the symptoms listed she pretty much had, but I never put them together). I didn't take her to the vet unless something was wrong which was not much before this. So, I am here with these wonderful people who have educated me immensely.

Ask your questions...I tell people all the time to consider this disease when their dog gets older and what the symptoms will be.....

[Betty]

Hi Marie, nice to meet you. Sorry that your dog is another Cushing's case, though seeing you know she is I am sure you'll do everything you can for her. I'm glad she suffered none of the 5 Ps mentioned but that vet wasn't really saying they would, just that if dogs presented with any of them, she was taught that she should check for Cushings. Another (strange) thing she mentioned was that Sugar had blackheads on her belly that she says are associated with Cushings. Shady, the other one I thought was possibly Cushingoid, had them also, but none of my others do. Whether they stay there if a dog is on treatment, I don't know, or whether they are there on every dog that has Cushings, again, I don't know. (Actually I don't know much, do I? :D)
If anyone cares to check their dogs, I'd love to know if that is right. I will come back to this later, nearly dinner time for us.

[mytil]

Hi Betty,

I am glad you found us and I am so very sorry you lost your Sugar.

I am curious about what your vet mentioned as to the 5 Ps (Pyometra, peritonitis, pancreatitis, pyoderma and pneumonia) that point towards further cushing's testing. Possibly the vet meant something else - possibly meaning infection for pneumonia and peritonitis, maybe? Pymetra is a serious disease of the uterus, and pyoderma is a skin disease/infection and possibly your vet was thinking of calcinosis cutis.

Symptoms of Cushing's disease can be vague and varied and tend to appear gradually and progressively. It is thus easy to mistake Cushing's disease for normal aging. Additionally, many of the clinical symptoms are not unique to Cushing's and could reflect a number of other health concerns. Below are the "trigger symptoms" for further cushing's testing.

The most common symptoms include:
• increased/excessive water consumption (polydipsia)
• increased/excessive urination (polyuria)
• urinary accidents in previously housetrained dogs
• increased/excessive appetite (polyphagia)
• appearance of food stealing/guarding, begging, trash dumping, etc.
• sagging, bloated, pot-bellied appearance
• weight gain or its appearance, due to fat redistribution
• loss of muscle mass, giving the appearance of weight loss
• bony, skull-like appearance of head
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
• excess panting, seeking cool surfaces to rest on
• symmetrically thinning hair or baldness (alopecia) on torso
• other coat changes like dullness, dryness
• slow regrowth of hair after clipping
• thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin
• easily damaged/bruised skin that heals slowly
• hard, calcified lumps in the skin (calcinosis cutis)
• susceptibility to infections (especially skin and urinary)
• diabetes, pancreatitis, seizures

Terry

[StarDeb55]

Betty, let me say that I'm very sorry for the loss of your precious pup. Terri has given you some great information. There are only 2 causes of Cushing's. The first one occurs in about 10-15% of our pups, & that is the presence of an adrenal gland tumor. These tumors may or may not be malignant. Either malignant or not, they will cause the adrenals to make excessive amounts of cortisol which is what the main problem is with Cushing's. These tumors can also cause the overproduction of one or more of the associated sex hormones which may cause Cush symptoms without the cortisol being elevated.

The second type is pituitary Cushing's which affects the majority of out pups. For whatever reason a mass will develop in the pit gland in the brain which disrupts the feedback loop between the brain & the adrenals which controls the production of cortisol. The brain produces a hormone which signals the adrenals to pump out cortisol. Only very small amounts of cortisol are normally needed to maintain good health, but when a pup is under stress from anything the adrenals are signaled to pump out huge amounts of cortisol. When this feedback loop is disrupted, the adrenals are continuously signaled to pump out as much cortisol as they can all the time. Again, the overproduction of cortisol is what causes Cushing's

Hope this helps.

Debbie

[Harley PoMMom]

The third cause of Cushing's is one called Iatrogenic Hyperadrenocorticism. This is where the animal has been given corticosteroid medicine to the extent that the animal develops Cushing's Disease. When iatrogenic hyperadrenocorticism develops, it is fully reversible. The source of steroid is slowly withdrawn to allow the adrenals to "wake up" and resume functioning.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[Betty]

Thank you so much, Terry, that was really great to have a name for what the vet pointed out to me, then to read (when I Googled)

In dogs, calcinosis cutis is virtually pathognomonic for Canine Cushing's syndrome.

So, one symptom I know to look for in future. Even if the vet had gone all technical on me and told me the name for it, I wasn't in a state for much to register. I am going to see her when I go to town next Friday, and was going to ask her about this. Another symptom was thin, wrinkled, fragile, and/or darkly pigmented skin, so I am not sure if it was the latter or what you mention, Terry. To my uneducated eye it did look like blackheads, like she'd been playing in dirt too much. Of course you couldn't wash it off though.

That list of symptoms, I didn't see the first 4 in Sugar or Shady. She was not as bloated as Shady, but you see Shady had problems with her forelegs and could not exercise so I assumed that too much food maybe combined with lack of exercise led to her being too fat. But then maybe Cushings led to her having the leg problems? They were insurmountable and the reason I had to make that awful last decision. I still knew at least that her fat distribution was weird, and my vet had been seeing her, so he should have recognised it for what it was IMO.
This
• exercise intolerance, lethargy, general or hind-leg weakness
• new reluctance to jump on furniture or people
was something I'd started to notice in Sugar, that when she wanted to get up on my lap I'd had to start lifting her. First thought, she had arthritis, which I was treating her for - WRONG!! I think I'll feel guilty about not knowing what her real problem was for the rest of my life.

I'll ask the vet more about the 5 Ps, but when she discovered peritonitis I don't think she was surprised, she said with Cushings that could have come on very fast.
Debbie and Lori, thank you for your knowledge too. Lori, if corticosteroid medicine is given like that, could it cause adrenal tumours, or just cushingoid symptoms? I haven't even had a chance to ask the vet yet whether it was a single tumour or two.
One thing for sure, I'm looking at my dogs in a new light. They all are aging fast.

[Harley PoMMom]

Lori, if corticosteroid medicine is given like that, could it cause adrenal tumours, or just cushingoid symptoms?

Hi Betty,

I know it causes the cushing's symptoms but whether it can cause tumors I don't have an answer to that question and I am sorry. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will have that answer for you.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[StarDeb55]

As far as I know, long term administration of steroids will not cause an adrenal tumor. What long term administration of steroids will do is depress the immune system just like naturally occuring Cushing's disease.

Debbie

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Betty,

Here is a quick link to information about short term and long term steroid use.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_chronic_steroid_use.html

I hope it helps. :)

[Betty]

Thanks everyone. John, that was an interesting site because after I read what it said there I went to the Cushing's page and in a list of symptoms it did say

Blackheads and darkening of the skin, especially on the abdomen.

Separate from the Calcinosis cutis, which was mentioned later. I am so glad I came to this forum, and I am rejoicing when I see the normal skin, free of blackheads , on all my other dogs' tummies. :) Looking for other symptoms though. Incidentally, I used to show and breed both cattle dogs and shelties, so I have a few, living out their retirement. My sister also breeds shelties but she trains them for obedience and tracking trials. Needless to say, I am feeding her information just in case.
Gee, just looked at the page on that site for Hypothyroidism - terrific! I'll take a look right through that site when I find time.

[marie adams]

Hi Betty,

You mentione the blackheads on the belly. Yes Maddie does have those. I thought they were strange looking, but didn't realize they were part of the symptoms until I read them on one site about Cushings. I couldn't read enough an each site had a little different take on the symptoms. One stated dogs could have a snorting sound like a pig when they were sniffing around--Maddie did that too! It was weird because I noticed all the symptoms just didn't know they all went together until I finally found the Cushings link one Friday evening and the light bulb got turned on!!!:D:D

[Betty]

Sounds as if I should keep reading, Marie. I just had a look and in a book here that I have referred to often, Cushings didn't even get a mention, just a couple of lines in the glossary. I suppose I should rely on the Net more seeing books get outdated. The trouble is that every symptom of this can be explained away as something else or aging. I wonder if the dogs with the other type of Cushings get those blackheads too?

[marie adams]

Hi Betty,

I know, the more I read, the more symptoms I came up with that I noticed and confirmed she had Cushings. Another one was licking the floor or rugs. It seems they want to eat all the time. I didn't realize the ravenous eating was a symptom. I saw all the symptoms, but there was no reason to put them all together. Maddie had the skeleton head, panting, ravenous appetite, water intake along with the continuous urination--no problems with in house mistakes, I would say she had 75 to 80% of the symptoms. I do not even know where I found this site, but so happy I did.

I have not done any ultra sounds--my gut tells me she has adrenal tumors and the new vet feels the same way. In beginnig this is why I started with Lysodren because it treats both kinds of tumors. The blood panel excluded any other problems.

[AlisonandMia]

My Mia's Cushing's wasn't picked up by the first vet who saw her after she developed the disease - even though between the dog and me we must have just about given her the diagnosis on a plate: Mia's liver enzymes had come back elevated on routine testing, I commented on her "bloated" belly, and on her bedwetting. Fortunately another vet in the practice saw her about three months after that and picked it immediately - as did the vet tech when he pointed to her signs and symptoms and asked her what she thought. Of course the Cushing's was more advanced by then and thus more obvious. By that time Mia was looking much older than her years which was in fact what tipped the vet off and got him looking at more specific things like pot belly, muscle wasting and thinning coat.

I knew about Cushing's (I'd heard of the disease in humans and basically understood the causes) - but I had absolutely no idea that dogs got it or that it was so common in dogs (as compared to other species.)

Mia's Cushing's was pituitary.

Alison

[mypuppy]

Wow! I never knew or read anywhere, including here, until just now, licking floors was also a sign of Cushings. I could never understand why Princess would do that and just thought it was a bad doggie habit she took up. Thanks Marie. Best regards, still learning, Jeanette

[Betty]

Does anyone panic just because a dog seems hungry? All my dogs are hungry, and all would over-eat, steal food etc., that's just what shelties are about. Sugar was actually the only dog that always stood quietly waiting to be fed, she'd always been like it, while the others were super excited. However, while she never tried to steal food off the others, she would always go around and tidy up, polish the bowls with her tongue. She was such a character, because if a bowl was partway under something, she would pick it up with her teeth to get it out, and later used her mouth and feet to turn the bowl over if she detected the smell of a morsel stuck underneath it. One foot placed on the bowl to hold it still, she'd make sure she got whatever was there. Nothing desperate about it though. Some of her symptoms were a bit vague, yet in others ways I think she was a classic cush pup, if I'd only known it. I am reading some of the threads here but they are so long I'm having to do it when I can find time. Learning heaps.

[Betty]

Alison, forgot to say, g'day, nice to see another Aussie here, and you obviously have a better vet up there than I did.

[mypuppy]

Hi Betty,
The ridiculous appetite is definitely one of the symptoms of the cushings. As your pup, my Princess has always loved her chow, however one thing she never ever did prior to her cushings dx, was steal food, go into garbage or scrounge all over the house and yard for anything edible. Gosh, even as pup, we would test her by leaving, food on a plate on the floor, walk away for half hour or more, came back and food would still be there. That changed when she was diagnosed with this "dratted" thing. She stoled a biscuit right out of my little one's plate on one occasion, tried going into the garbage several times and there's a particular spot in the yard she tends to run to when we are out there and will dig a little and try to eat whatever is there, leaves, grass, dirt. Pretty horrid, considering she has never pulled this stuff on us. I feel terrible for her. I mean I can't imagine within her how awful this thing makes her feel and the fact she's hungry all the time just breaks my heart. Good luck with your precious pup. Looking forward to some good updates. keeping you in our thoughts and prayers. Xo Jeanette

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Betty,

An extremely belated welcome to you and yours. I have nothing helpful to add, but just wanted to pop in and say hi. Good luck with your reading, I learn something new each day here.

Jane, Franklin and Bailey xxx

[Betty]

Jeanette, my Sugar has already gone to the Bridge, I am here just trying to make sense of what happened to her. Also making sure that I never own another undiagnosed Cushings dog. Sugar wasn't trying to steal food off anyone, she merely went around cleaning bowls after the others had finished, and occassionally, instead of coming outside to toilet after her meal, if she found the passage door open she would do a u turn and go see if the cattle dogs could have left a morsel of food on the floor for her. No really strange eating habits outside, in fact if she found an apple on the ground she used to make me laugh because she would walk around carefully for ages with it in her mouth, tiptoeing almost as if she was on eggshells, keeping a watchful eye on the others, trying to find a spot where she could 'bury' it. It was almost in slow motion, and so quiet, as if she thought the others wouldn't see her if she acted this way, but not once did she bother eating the apple.

I feel for Princess too. I thought Sugar was just greedy checking out the cattle dogs' area but if you know what's driving them, then yes, you have to feel so sorry for them.
Jane, thanks for even a belated welcome. It's a wonderful forum with so much more shared knowledge than I'm ever going to find out from a vet here. They're such busy people.

[mypuppy]

Oh Betty,
I apologize for not updating myself on your entire thread to learn Sugar was no longer with you. It is hard to keep up with everyone's threads here so at times I do skip to the most recent posts. So sorry you lost your precious baby and are still trying to make sense of it. I can understand your desire to learn all you can, even now. I do so hope you find all the answers you are looking for. For now, I hope you hold some sweet memories of your Sugar and I know you still hold her dear to your heart. And I know what you mean when you say you feel bad for Princess. I feel that way all the time and wonder if she is in some kind of pain inside or discomfort and she can't well tell me. It really is difficult. But anyway, so sorry once again about Sugar and my oversight. God bless. Xo Jeanette and a great big lick from my Princess

[Betty]

No apologies needed, Jeanette, I did understand what you've explained here. :) Is that your Princess in your avatar? A lovely dog if it is. I'm wondering, does Cushings effect bitches more than dogs, and is it something that can be inherited? Maybe not Cushings itself, the chance of becoming a cush pup? Just that I thought Shady had Cushings also, and I still have 4 sons of hers. 2 by choice(for showing), one to save his life seeing he was born with birth defects following an accident his mum had before he was born, and I had his brother returned to me after the owner had 4 family members die in a short period of time, he couldn't cope with the dog so offered him back to us. I'll be watching these dogs closely for any symptoms, and probably start imagining them even if they aren't there.

[marie adams]

Hi Betty,

I imaging things all the time with Maddie. I think she is acting better or worse. When loading you are constantly looking at any little change. I know I must make her nervous because I am always looking at her for signs of anything encouraging. My husband said let it go she is doing just fine--copping--a trooper. I know the feeling of do they hurt, are they in pain--I cannot tell with Maddie--when she gets up I am not sure if it is the weak hind legs with so little muscle tone or arthritis and she now has pressure sores on her front elbows. She deals with it all/adapts--I am the one who doesn't deal--haha!!

I thought my vet said it could be inherited, but her grandmother nor her mom had it. Dad do not have a clue. They were all purebred Aussies.

Take care!!

[Betty]

If your vet said that then I do need to watch the boys, Marie, thanks for letting me know. One is hypothyroid , one has had bladder stones removed, and I dread either of those getting anything more on top of those problems, but I guess there is nothing one can do to try and ward Cushings off, if it happens, it happens.
It is 0C here and I'm starting to get cold, I might go to bed I think. Sounds cosy to me. :)