Zoe By My Side- Our Journey with Cushings

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Scott,
Lori-if the lysodren bothered Harley's pancreas on maintenance dose, would it not have bothered it loading? I hear what you are saying and I guess that is what I am trying to determine, just forget the maintenance and go with the load is the question. I think I already ruled out the Trilostane last night.
Addy

The maintenance dosing of Lysodren never bothered Harley's pancreas...I started the maintenance dosing on January 4th, 80mg 3X a week. On January 22nd he stimmed at 18.5 ug/dl so we upped his mt. dose to 90mg 3X a week. On February 26th, another stim test and a spec PL was done. Spec PL results were 303 (0-200), these were the lowest that they have ever been! BUT his stim results were 30.3 ug/dl! There was a mix-up with the compounding pharmacy about his Lysodren/Mitotane...they were not even sure if they had given me Lysodren/Mitotane or not! Long story...ugh!

All I'm saying is for Harley, is when his cortisol reached 26.2 ug/dl, he should of been loaded and not put on a maintenance dose...I do regret that now.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[apollo6]

Dear Addy,
You are being overwhelmed with all of this right now.
Take a break for a while. Get your self balanced. Put cushing in the drawer for a while. We get so super vigilant with this disease, that often times additional issues prop up and we worry more.
All I know is before Cushing I would go once or twice a year to the vet. I should put a bed in the vets office.:D
All I can say is I started lower then the vet said. Apollo is doing pretty good on the Trilostane. And as you read other's are doing well on the other medications. Take a break.
My little guy is sleeping in one of his beds, behind me now.:o
Walking is still a problem.
You are in my prayers.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Yep, I know each day is different. Some days they can go really fast and then the next it is the slow shuffle with the panting. All in all I think Maddie is doing great. We have to take each day and enjoy our time together. I feel they are giving everything their little or big in Maddie's case will give. They never give up so why not enjoy and not stress. I am getting better about the not stressing, but it is there hiding ready to come out at a moments notice--haha!!:D:D

You have great vets trust them, but verify with the group:D:D as always. Just keep an eye on Miss Zoe.

I started to give Maddie a little dry (no grain) with her raw. I haven't noticed any noises from her tummy. She loves her yogurt--has become use to having it for dessert--what a spoiled dog, but she is worth it. I wonder if this has helped with her coat being shiny and soft. It could be the flax oil too.

Take care!! You are the GREATEST!!!

[addy]

Dearest Sonja and Marie- Thank you so very much for the rallying cry and moral support. Lori- Thank you for trying so hard to answer my questions. Scott- Thank you for your input and concern. I hope I did not forget someone:eek:

This is my bottom line and I feel like I am drowning in it, I can’t breathe:

Zoe continues with mild symptoms, mainly hair coat/skin issues

Zoe’s blood work from the end of May is fairly normal when I compare it to other pups, cholesterol is high ( 503) and Alp Tase (325- highest normal value being 289) is above normal but not THAT high that I can’t attribute some of that to her flare up and on again off again doses of metronidazole.

YET- her adrenal panel numbers were sky high, post cortisol 32, all intermediate hormones elevated pre and post stim.

How does a dog have not so bad blood work, mild symptoms and yet sky high adrenal numbers? The word “Significant” that Dr. Oliver wrote is burned into my memory. I see it in my sleep.


Zoe has sensitive system, IMS feels if we control her Cushing’s, that may change, I suspect, as Marianne found, that will not be the case. Yet, as soon as I started the melatonin, her stool has been fine and continues to be normal for 2 months now thought we have only been on full dose 1 month (that excludes her problem when I give her the heartworm medicine and any exposure to pesticide) Anything new bothers Zoe. Her heartworm medicine bothers her stool, as each month goes by; each dose gives her softer and softer stool for a longer period of time. If she happens to go on pesticide treated grass by accident, for even just a few minutes, you see it in her stool the next day; it is softer and green.

I worry as her disease progresses, she needs stronger medicine. I worry about the damage internally that I can’t see.

My gut tells me she will not tolerate the lysodren. Her intermediates are elevated so that rules out Trilostane. She now has slight heart murmur so not sure if that rules out Anipryl but seems like it would.

What do I have left for my little girl as I know she will need something soon?

I am sorry if I sound like a broken record. The words replay in my head, over and over and won't stop. I don't want to give up, NEVER QUIT, I say, NEVER QUIT, but yet, I have no where to go and I can't breathe, it hurst so bad.

Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Sweet Addy,

Take some deep breathes....take some more! Lets first get a recent stim test done on Zoe and see exactly where her cortisol levels are at.

Ya know Harley estradiol levels when first done were 132.2! And I still started him on the Vetoryl.

We are here for you Addy, please know that, please do not feel we are trying to make you rush into treating Zoe, as this is not so. Only you can decide when the time is right for this to happen and/or if this is going to happen.

We love you and Zoe dearly and are here to support you.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[labblab]

Aww, Addy, I so wish there was some way we could release you from your burden right now. It is SOOOOO stressful to try to choose a course when you feel as though you have no compass to guide you...:o But I hope and pray that once you do make a decision, some of the stress will drop away. Or at least change for you. Because at that point, you will have picked a path to launch out on. And the burden then shifts to just watching out for any potholes along the way! ;)

From what I wrote earlier, I don't want you to think that I wouldn't recommend trilostane as an option for Zoe. I've truly come to believe that virtually all dogs who have elevated cortisol probably also exhibit some elevations in intermediates, as well. And a high percentage of dogs on trilostane must benefit from symptom relief, or else so many specialists around the world would not continue to prescribe it. That's why I've pretty much stopped recommending the full adrenal panel to newbies unless they've got a dog with symptoms but normal LDDS/ACTH results.

Since you DO have full panel results for Zoe, though, and you are concerned about her intermediates -- that is why I suggested going ahead with trying the Lysodren first. But if you have doubts about the Lysodren, then I'd say go ahead and give the trilostane a try if the time comes that you feel that you need to proceed with more aggressive treatment. I don't think you will permanently hurt Zoe with the trilostane. If it doesn't resolve her symptoms properly (or causes new ones from additional elevations in the intermediates), you can always stop it. If it doesn't work, then you'll have at least 30 days to regroup and come up with a new plan. If and when her symptoms warrant treatment, I think the important part will be to just go ahead and give one or the other a try and see how Zoe responds. I know I'm making it sound much simpler than it feels. But I do think you've still got options to try. And that once you finally make a decision, things may get much easier for you. :)

Marianne

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I'm so sorry that you are so stressed. I know you're doing the best that you can possibly do.

Since you have already had the adrenal panel done, you might consider using Trilostane and have another panel done to see if there was much of an increase in Zoe's intermediate hormones. At least you would be able to make a comparison.

Take care and hang in there. We're here for you. Vent anytime you want to.

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

I too wish I could alleviate your worries and concern about Zoe but we all know that we might as well try to move a mountain. :D Can you remind me what symptoms Zoe has? If her appetite is normal or less than normal, I personally would be concerned with treating with lysodren because 1) appetite is the most reliable symptom to monitor to determine whether a dog is loaded and 2) the most common side effect is gastrointestinal upset.

For the longest time I was on the no Trilostane with elevated intermediates bandwagon but I changed my position on that a long time ago after switching Lulu from Trilostane to lysodren. I did a ton of research and came to the conclusion that every dog with elevated cortisol has elevated intermediates. Every cushdog on this forum with typical cushing's has one or more elevated intermediate hormones so in theory, none of them should be treated with Trilostane. The fact of the matter is that with all the years of experience in the UK with Trilostane, there are no studies out there that prove that a dog will relapse with long treatment due to it's adverse affect on the intermediates. Believe me, if any dog should have relapsed, Lulu should have.

Oops just noticed the time and have to go catch my shuttle for the airport but would like to weigh in on my opinion as to which drug I personally would opt for in your position. Unless Addy has heart problems that would prohibit treatment with Trilostane, I'd go with a very conservative dose of Trilostane. I'll try to check in later and write some more because heaven knows, I can go on forever and put you to sleep without really trying.

Hugs,
Glynda

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Addy,

Just sending hugs your way Jane, OZ---->>> (((((HUGS))))) --->>> Addy, Milwaukee, USA. Hope they find you, and find you still with some hair on your head :D

Jane

[gpgscott]

Addy,

There have been some good comments made. It is clear that the hormone which causes the greatest damage is cortisol and we know that Trilostane is very effective at reducing cortisol. Even though the other hormones can cause issues it seems it takes much greater elevations of any of them and so in the case of a pup with elevated cortisol the control of cortisol really needs to be the paramount issue.

Changing treatment is stressful for everyone but whichever route you take there will be someone here who has done something similar and will be able to help you along the way.

Please don't rule out any treatment at this point. Many pups have gone from dire condition to many years of health with the right treatment.

Please continue to let us know. Best wishes. Scott

[addy]

My heartfelt thanks to all of you for your support and kind words. I don't know what I would do without all of you.

I have decided to wait until Zoe's stim in November and let Zoe tell me which direction to take based on her results and symptoms at that time. The estradiol remains a concern to me.

If symptoms remain mild and numbers are better, I will have to decide on triolstane or maintenance dose of lysodren. I still lean to the maintenance dose of lysodren.

If things are worse, it will be a different ball game:eek:

Good news is I found the name of a vet who referred me to whom he thought was the most experienced IMS in town for treating Cushings. So IF current IMS's hours cannot be worked out, I guess we will be interviewing another. The referal vet said he has Cushings dogs they see on a regular basis but he only treats a few new cases a year. He schooled at UC Davis which is why I thought he might be a possibilty. However, he thought this new IMS was best in town.

The journey continues

Hugs,
Addy

[littleone1]

You know Zoe better than anyone else, Addy. You need to do what you feel is best for Zoe.

I hope that this IMS will be able to help.

[addy]

Thanks Terri, I know she needs things done slowly, but sometimes my downfall can be I go toooooo slow:o

I did find a really cute sweater for her though. I was worried about the snow coming and her fur on her belly is growing but it is far from thick. It was thin to begin with and shaving for the ultra sound made her bald:eek:

I am sooo glad Corkster is doing well, it is such a joy:D

I found a really cool way to play puzzle with the pups, I took a cupcake tin and some tennis balls and hide a treat under one of the balls. I wanted one of the Swedish wooden puzzles but they are like $50:eek: Anyway, we sure had fun last night. Zoe solved her puzzle in 30 seconds, Koko just got excited about the tennis balls and never could solve his. Maybe Zoe had a Cushing advantage!!!!

Hugs,
Addy

[littleone1]

I love the puzzle game, Addy. I think this is great. Since Zoe enjoys it, she has a great quality of life. Don't worry about going too slow. Cushings is a slow progressing disease.

I'm glad you found a sweater for her. Corky even has the cutest little jacket for when it gets cold out here. I know we don't get the low temps that you get there, but if we get in the 30's, Corky wears his little jacket.

Take care my friend. (((HUGS))) and belly rubs for Zoe.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy,
Glad to hear about Zoe and her puzzles.:p We only have today.
Couldn't stop crying when I read about Debbie's , Harley.:(
When one falls , we all fall.
Love Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Hi All,

Is it possible for me to start a new thread asking a question? I would like to know how many members are treating their pups with Trilostane and of those pups, how many have high estradiol and any other intermediates And what symptoms have abated and which have not And what, if any, new symptoms have been seen?

Could we do this as a separate thread? Hoping we could call it Who treats with Triolstane/Veteryl when pup has elevated hormones other than cortisol.

Or do we know the answer to this already?

My continuing research:rolleyes::D

Thanks!

Addy

[labblab]

Is it possible for me to start a new thread asking a question? I would like to know how many members are treating their pups with Trilostane and of those pups, how many have high estradiol and any other intermediates And what symptoms have abated and which have not And what, if any, new symptoms have been seen?

Hi Addy,

I just saw your question. Let me forward it on to the rest of the staffmembers here, so that we can talk it over and figure out the best way to handle it. So just sit tight, and we'll get back to you about this, OK?

Thanks!
Marianne

[addy]

No rush guys, last week was really hard and I know this week will still be hard.

Maybe you already have the answer:D

Whenever you get to it is fine. I am hoping maybe I would see a pattern, I guess. I know what some of Dr. Oliver's research shows, just thought it might be of benefit if we had a poll and it would be easy to read through the different pup's experiences. I know the elevated estradiol can worsen with Trilostane over extended periods of time and bring back Cushing symptoms.

Thanks for your help as always,

Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Know what you mean. Like your idea, would be good if we could do with each drug our pups are taking so could get input from each drug so pups taking the drugs could have a quick link to get feed back.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.
Will look forward to seeing Zoe's new coat.

[labblab]

Is it possible for me to start a new thread asking a question? I would like to know how many members are treating their pups with Trilostane and of those pups, how many have high estradiol and any other intermediates And what symptoms have abated and which have not And what, if any, new symptoms have been seen?

Addy, thanks so much for your patience while we staffmembers talked over ways in which we thought you might receive the most meaningful responses to your question. We debated attaching your question to a pre-existing related thread, and also considered setting it up as a formal poll. But the bottom line is, probably the best thing is just to have you go ahead and start up a new discussion thread in whatever manner you wish. (Sorry it took us two days to return to Square One :p).

So please do go ahead and launch your new thread when you are ready. The responses will surely be interesting to all of us. Even though we have lots of folks who are using trilostane, I think it is a small "universe" of members who have had the full adrenal panel performed at UTK. So to that extent, the responses may be limited. But we shall see!

Good luck with your research,
Marianne

[addy]

Just got back from IMS visit. Should have results of urine culture in 5 days. She, too, seemed to think Zoe just got spaced out from the melatonin since we have not had another accident yet, but we shall see.

Good news, she did not hear heart murmur. Vet on Friday did not hear it either.

We are on wait and hold until beginning of December. She explained she is still there 4 days a week and available for emergencies or to see patients if needed. Sigh of relief. Said again she treats the dog not the numbers because a dog could be doing well even if numbers are considered high.

I may not be relating all of this correctly, I have had no sleep and am pretty tired from long day. Stupid headache had me up again all night:eek:

She thought Zoe's coat was better but not normal and hair on tummy from ultrasound has not grown back like it should have but we have only been on full dose of melatonin and lignans 5 weeks.

Again, Zoe did not have to be muzzled and was so good it was like the old Zoe. IMS was even amazed.:D

I wish I had shared a longer part of Zoe's life because I worry I might be missing symptoms. Three years is not very long. I don't have much to compare to.

There was more but can't type anymore.

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Know what you mean about this roller coaster ride.
Sounds like some good has come out of this.
I am going through the same with Apollo. Do I stop the trilostane and see if the legs get better, down side the cushing damages his organs more. My holistic vet says check with IMS to see if I should stop the trilostane for 2weeks to a month to see if his legs improve.
But the little guy still has some fight in him.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.
take a break . We all need to sometimes it just gets so overwhelming. at times.
Hang in there.

[lulusmom]

With reference to Dr. Feldman's preference for Trilostane for adrenal tumors, based on the entire content of this interview as well as an audio of one of his lectures where he states that Lysodren is his choice for adrenal tumors that are not to be surgically removed, I believe Dr. Feldman prefers Trilostane as presurgical treatment of adrenal tumors. UC Davis used to use ketoconazole to rapidly reduce cortisol in preparation for surgery; however they have since changed to Trilostane due to Keto's adverse impact on the liver. If you read the paragraph before the sentence where he states that Trilostane is his treatment of choice for adrenal tumors, you'll see that the treatment is limited to one to two months of treatment.

Hi Addy and everybody else.

There has been some behind the scene discussions on whether Dr. Feldman actually prefers Trilostane to Lysodren for treating adrenal tumors and I've exhausted all efforts and aside from an audio that predates the article Lori provided, I cannot find anything that supports my comments above. I was, however, able to find a paper about Vetoryl,written by Dr. Mark Peterson, who is also one of my idols. There is some good information in this paper so ya'll might want to keep it for your future reference. You will see that Dr. Peterson does mention that Vetoryl is superior to Mitotane for treating non-operable adrenal tumors. So there ya go.

http://animalhospitalofmtpocono.com/NEPVMA/docs/1a%20Vetoryl,%20Another%20Choice%20.pdf

[addy]

Hi Glynda,

Thank you for the link, it was interesting to read and I will keep it for reference. I know you have done much research and I truly respect your knowledge and opinions:)

Zoe has her recheck end of November. I suspect we will still see elevated cortisol and intermediates then but I am hoping they may have gone done a tad, thought that would just mean perhaps instead of Dr. O writing "significant" hopefully, he will write "moderate". I did email him and he stated that with Zoe's numbers I should be seeing definite signs of Cushings. She is not yet panting, peeing rivers or drinking buckets. i do notice some weakness in her hind legs now and they seem a little stiff.

I sure wish I knew how old she really is. She's been a couch potato ever since I brought her home 3 1/2 years ago, was never one to play ball or like long walks, in fact, she always slept in mornings and never wanted to walk any where until the afternoon or evening. That was why I always joked she was five going on nine:eek: Maybe that was the Cushings already, who knows.

Have a great week!!!

Addy

[addy]

Well, no news yet from the urine culture. I have a feeling it will show no UTI.

I am starting to get nervous, I think. Did not bother me until today.

What else can they tell from a urine culture besides looking for bacteria? I reminded them she is on a raw diet.

Addy

[apollo6]

We have to think positive.
It would show if there is bacteria or an infection, or blood in the urine.
Don't be alarmed, when they took Apollo's urine they did it with a needle and there was some but they said don't worry.
Sometimes it take a while for a lab result to come back.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Thanks Sonja,

They did Zoe's with a needle, too, I took her to IMS. I was not sure what they all check with a culture. Do they check for diabetes with a culture?

I am trying to stay positive but I thought they would call today.:(

Addy

[StarDeb55]

Addy, a culture will check for the presence of infection, only. In order to check for the presence of glucose & ketones in urine, a routine urinalysis must be done. The presence of the above 2 things are a pretty good indicator for diabetes.

Debbie

[addy]

Thanks Deb. That was all fine the end of May but we thought maybe we missed an infection as she still licks herself after urinating. She doesn't do it all the time but she does do it a few times a day.

I got nervous because they did not call today so trying to think of what else they could find. :eek: Yes, I admit to twitching:rolleyes:

She gets new blood work and acth end of November so I guess we could recheck with regular urine test too. She has had 2 in the last year and now the culture. I keep thinking she has a UTI as she never licked like that before. Hubby thinks all her licking (she licks him, herself, the floor, my pillow, his pajamas and chew, chew, chews on her Kong) is from her Cushings but he asked IMS 3 times now and she says no. :confused:

Oh if they could only talk!!!!!

Addy

Hugs,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Oh how I agree with you about them talking. We wouldn't be going nutso trying to figure them out.:)

Good news about no heart murmur!!:D And hopefully good news about the culture.

Maddie seems to be panting heavier this past month. Everything else seems good, but the panting and she doesn't seem to have gotten more energy back. She is a fur ball, but that took quite a while to finally come back and back it came.:D:D

I was thinking there might be something going on with Maddie's thyroid and this might be causing the heavy panting and no energy. My work buddy is pregnant and she is having a thyroid issue. She doesn't pant, but has shortness of breath a lot and her heart races quite a bit and she is very tired. So it got me thinking this might be Maddie's panting problem, but when I checked symptoms of thyroid problems in canines it didn't list the panting part. There were some other things that didn't fit with Maddie; so I guess I will have to talk to the Doctor and see what's up--might just be her numbers and all that fur.

Take care of yourself and keep those stupid headaches away!!:mad:

[addy]

Hi Marie,

Good to hear from you. Maybe Maddie girl needs her dose tweaked. I did read the a percentage of dogs will end up having to reload the first year on lysodren. Hopefully, that is not the case and she just needs tweaking. Are you using the milk thistle for her liver? I forgot:o

Zoe's thyroid is borderline but I will admit that when her holistic vet had her on the glandular natural product called Armor, except for the hair loss that started (but I guess we know now it was not from that product, though it is a side effect) she was amazing. She had tons of energy, she jumped in the car, my couch potato actually wanted to go for a walk in the morning. As soon as I stopped it, we went back to I dont want to jump in the car, I really don't want to walk yet and then her colitis flared up so???????????

I received a letter in the mail and I think it said no UTI but letter from IMS is confusing so will call today to check.

Oh shoot, I gotta go, late for work:p:p

Addy

[marie adams]

Good Morning Addy,

Yes I still have her on the Milk Thistle, but I think I read somewhere (too many things to read sometimes) that it can build up and not be as helpful--I think it said to lay off and start back again, but I haven't done this.

I will check into the Armor--what's another thing to give her--it is sooo funny--she has a little plastic tray of pills and stuff and so do we. Last night my daughter got out the fish oil and vit C layed it out for the Maddie Girl and then portioned out all of our vitamins. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would be pill poppers:D:D and never even thought Maddie would--haha!!!!

Have a great day at work; I cannot wait to get started--oh darn I am 3 minutes late calling into my manager---hehe!!!:eek:

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Maddie,

Milk Thistle does work best when it is not given continuously. While Squirt was on it she would take it for 3 mos, then off 3 mos - kinda in a seasonal cycle, like she would get it spring and fall but not summer and winter.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Carrol,
I know what you mean about promising your pups a good life. Both my pups came out of Animal Control and I promised them nothing bad would ever happen to them again and they woud have a happy life. I never dreamed Zoe would get Cushings so I just try now to make every day a happy day for them. I cry whenever I think of that promise I made.

Addy

Dearest, Sweet Addy,

YOU are keeping that promise! Honey, no one can control how or when their pups get Cushing's disease.

Addy, YOU are doing a wonderful job taking care of Zoe, YOU are a fabulous mom to her and your love and devotion runs very deep and is shown in many ways for all of us to see.

Please do not cry when you think of that promise, you are keeping that promise in so many ways.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I just wanted to see how Zoe is doing. I'm glad she doesn't have a UTI.

I know I don't understand why they lick. Corky had started doing that awhile ago. He tries to lick all kinds of things when we go for our walks. There are some days when he doesn't even try to lick anything. It's strange.

You're doing a great job. You are a wonderful mom.

[addy]

Thank you Lori, for such kind words and for the moral support. Your words are so touching to me.


On a brighter note, I am glad, too, Terri, she does not have a UTI. Her hair is getting wild and strange looking and all the pretty caramel/honey colored markings are fading away to white.:confused:
Has anyone else experienced color changes like that in their pups coat?

I also think I am starting to see muscle wasting in her hind legs and they seem stiffer and more upright. It almost reminds me of Kim's Annie. But she remains happy and loving and her temperment is much better. The IMS was totally amazed Zoe allowed her to do a physical exam without so much as a peep.

It is dark now when I get home from work and we don't have street lights or sidewalks so I can't walk them in the road. We are back to games like hide and seek, puzzles, jump and tunnel.

Is it bad for Zoe's muscle wasting to have her jump over a tiny jump maybe 10 inches high? We only do it maybe five times and not every night, maybe every other night. I wasn't sure if that might be too strenuous.

Thanks all!!!
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Sounds like we are in the same boat. Apollo walks with a stiff hind leg gait, then sometimes walks normal. If Zoe can jump , let her.
Apollo tries things also and I just smile and say good boy. We need to encourage them , when they try to let them know it is a good thing. I hate this disease!!!!:mad:

[addy]

Thanks Sonja,

I think the mouse scare is over but we will see. I drove home with my heart pounding after hubby called and said her poops were really bad but she is fine now so I fed her. Hope that was not a mistake but at least it is better than I thought. Hopefully, it was the neighbors pesticide blowing in our yard. Not that that is a good thing but it is better than eating part of a dead mouse:eek::eek:

Why is it the rule more than one thing happens so you never know the cause!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad:

Oh that condo in the city is looking good, I can't take much more of Little House on the Prairie:rolleyes:

Addy not the Pioneeer

[Casey's Mom]

Addy you are too funny . . .

Hugs,

[apollo6]

Thank God for humor.
Found a rat dropping on my patio, became Sherlock Holmes looking for the critter.:eek: What we do to make sure the fur balls don't get their mouth into things they should not. :p
Hugs Sonja and licks from Apollo

[addy]

Hi All,

Well, Zoe has been having intermittent soft stool since last week when we had the mouse parts scare. Now it could be totally unrelated, I never know. It is the middle of the day stool that has been very soft. I guess if I start seeing first am soft stool I will have to bring out the metronidazole to nip it in the bud before it gets really bad again. And she is supposed to have her heartworm medicine tomorrow which gives her soft stool. Maybe I'll wait on that. We have been having terrible wind storm for 2 days, maybe it is stress.

She also is jumping on the bed less and less and when we play games, she is not running as fast.:(

Other than that, her eyes are bright, her mood is really good. She was an angel at the groomers, in fact her groomer commented on how she must really be feeling better. She stays out with us and has not been hiding next to the sofa. She seems happy.

I don't feel she is as well as she was this time last year. Maybe the melatonin is slowing her down. She is trying to grow hair on her shaved tummy but it is pretty sparse.

I reread a paper today written by Dr. Feldman in 2009. It seemed to say I should be seeing more things wrong with Zoe's blood work before I start treatment. I will try to find it and post the paragraph for your interpretations.

I probably sound down, things are very slow at work, I'm worried.
Also worried about the soft stool creeping back in. It has been so good.

Well, tomorrow is another day:D

Hugs,
Blue Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Oh, Addy, so sorry to hear you are "blue".
An interesting point - my vet talked to Dr Oliver since I felt Chloe was losing more of her coat. In his recommendations, Dr Oliver suggests the melatonin implant but, in our case, he said to try an increase from 3mg twice a day to 4 or 5mg. She is at about 4 1/2 and does not seem wiped out by it so am waiting to see how the coat does.
Has Zoe been on flax hulls because, I think I read plant lignana can cause loose stools.
Please take care.
Love,
Carrol & Chloe

[addy]

Hi Carroll,

Thanks for the information. :) Maybe I should think about your suggestion. I know you had increased the melatonin. Zoe is on 16mgs of SDG lignans. She has been fine with that amount, I can't give her more, I tried:o Zoe is 2 pounds heavier than your Chloe, she weighs 18 pounds. Her undercoat always made her look so round and now that she doesn't have one, she looks thin to me. She has gone down to 17.5 pounds in the past but she is big boned so I like her no less than that. I had cut back on her food just a tad, I might have to increase again.

I just worry she is headed for a colitis flare up. Funny thing was it seemed like the melatonin had helped her colitis when we started it which, if it is related to stress, makes sense to me. Maybe a slight increase at night would help. I could try 4 mgs at night and 3 durring the day. I will wait for the wind storm to stop and see where I am at.

Her tests will tell the tale when she has them done next month. I am a little worried about the holidays creeping in there and messing things up, test wise.

I hope Sparky is okay. You have your hands full right now. Give the babies hugs from me.

I am off to work and I need to swallow some vitamin D before I go:D:D:D I need sunshine;)

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Just checking in. I wish I could be more up. I'll post on my thread about Apollo. He throw up last week again. Is okay for today. Don't know if his pancrease is flaring up again. He is struggling with his legs.
Praying for you and Zoe.
Was happy to hear about Lucy. I feel bad I didn't even know about it.
How do you keep up with everyone.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Thanks Sonja,

I have been busy too. Zoe ended up with colitis flare, like I thought. I am really bummed about it. I can't retest her end of the month if she ends up being on metronidazole for 3 weeks.

I wish I could swear!!!!!! I am so frustrated.

Is it possible for her lignans to not bother her for 2 months and then out of nowhere, cause bad diarrhea?

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
it is possible. Apollo was doing great for awhile now the stomach issues are flaring up again with his throwing up. I hate this disease:mad:
Keep me posted on poor little Zoe.
Does it ever get easier?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

Hang in there. I'm sorry to hear that Zoe had a colitis flare-up.

I know how frustrating it can be when something else enters into the picture. I had to delay Corky's stim before because of the medications he was on.

I can't offer any advice on the lignans, as I've never used them. I'm hoping that everything will settle down for you and Zoe.

[addy]

Thank you Terri.

I stopped the lignans until I get some solid stool. I will reintroduce them later this week and see where I am at.

A friend suggested perhaps we have a roaming cat visiting our yard as hubby found another beheaded mouse. This time he found the head. Sure enough, when I drove in the driveway last night, there was a pretty little orange tabby. I have never seen her before. She was very friendly and looked cared for so she was not feral.

I held her and then let her go and she ran away. Hubby is freaking cause he thinks I am going to bring her in the house. I was bawling because I was afraid for the little one. What a zoo!:eek::rolleyes:

It could be Zoe got into the mouse parts in the grass. I guess only time will tell.

Thanks for stopping in and saying hi!! I needed that.:)

Hugs,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Do you know Zoe or what??? You thought it was a flare up, but the mouse parts would have given me a scare also.

I posted on my thread the frustration we have had this past week with the testing. It is never ending wish there would be smooth sailing, but back to the drawing board again...

It is really warm here even at the beach in the 80's crazy and poor Maddie she has her bear rug coat on her body--so much fur, but I think the heavy panting has something to do with her numbers are up and the fur:(:( Now we are getting summer weather--isn't it November???:D

Take care!!!

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
just checking in on you. Hope Zoe feels better. We have to watch them like a hawk.
Hugs Sonja

[addy]

I must be losing it, I swear i did a post this morning, but it is not here:eek: Hope it is not on the wrong thread:o

Marie and Sonja- Thank you for checking in. Zoe is much better. The silver lining was the flare did not last very long before I was able to get things under control fairly quickly. I started her back on her lignans yesterday, 1/2 dose and we will see what happens. I upped her food by 1/2 ounce, thought I would take advantage of Zoe needing the metronidazole:p She was looking thin and had lost 1/2 pound since early August. I had cut back her raw patty alittle and replaced it with more Honest Kitchen. I switched her back.:(

Sending belly rubs to Maddie and Apollo. Sorry to hear about having to reload Maddie but at least she is a fuzzy girl.:D

Hope things went well at vets today, Sonja.

Love,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

A quick post and I guess I better get working or my manager will yell some more at me--haha!!! Good thing I get to work from home and out in the field.:D

How is Zoe? I haven't made an appt with the new vet yet need to do that--seems like she is drinking more water. Now it is cold, but sunny here--I am sure not as cold as you are--haha!! This is Maddie's favorite weather...

Take care!!!

[addy]

This seems like a small problem compared to others but I need advice. I just can't think anymore.

Zoe responded very quickly to her metronidazole durring this last flare up but I also stopped her lignans for 4 days. I supsect her lignans might be contributing to her flare. I am not 100% sure of it. Yesterday I did not give her metronidazole as I was going to go to every other day dosing and she had mucus watery poops all over the living room at 5:00am this morning. She has been doing well except for a soft stool after increasing her lignans last Friday and some panting then as well. She only pants when her tummy hurts.

Do I- stop all lignans for a few weeks and see where I am with her, meaning can she be weaned off the metronidazole as I usually do and then try to reintroduce her lignans to see if they are the culprit?:confused:

Do I- not bother trying to figure it out and switch to the HMR lignans right away?:confused:

Do I- not bother with the lignans at all and just try to get her well so she can be retested because the darn lignans probably are not doing anything anyway?:eek:

Her weight is stable but she looks and feels thinner. Is that the muscle wasting?

She won't jump on the bed at all anymore but last week I forgot to give her her melatonin in the morning and she jumped on the bed- so is it muscle wasting or being spaced out from the melatonin?

Her hair/skin is the same. It has not improved but it did not get worse


I really need some input, guys, I literally cannot think I am just burned out right now.

Thanks for your help,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Can't help you with your questions. Kind of going through the same with Apollo. He seems a little thinner. Will have to ask the vet .
I wish I could easy up on the worry.
Hugs, love and belly rubs to Zoe ,
Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

I don't have much time but I wanted to let you know what I would do in your place. If I wasn't sure that the lignans weren't causing the problem, I'd stop the lignans for a few weeks and concentrate on getting Zoe well.

There's really no way to know for sure why Addy was able to jump on the bed this morning but I think it's wonderful that she did. I know that my Lulu was lethargic most of the time when she was on melatonin. She was never big enough to jump on anything but if she could have, I think melatonin could have affected her jumping ability or even her desire to jump.

Glynda

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
just checking in on you.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Thanks for checking on us Sonja,

Zoe is better again, I stopped the lignans as Glynda suggested. I was leaning that way anyway. We went back to 2 does Metronidazole a day and today we will try to cut back to one dose per day and see how it goes. Not sure what to do about the lignans.:confused:

I have not heard back from IMS, so I am winging it:rolleyes:

I am hoping the extra food puts some meat back on her bones without causing tummy issues. I talked to hubby and if I have to, I will go have diet made for her and start home cooking.

I am really, really scared about her becoming diabetic. I am so terrified of that, I was trying to research it to help my fear of the unknown.:eek:Wish I could turn that dang twitcher off!!!!!

She just finished hauling pajamas out of the wash basket and licking them till they are soaking wet. Well, what ever turns on, I guess, I don't have the heart to scold her.:p

I am off to buy riding boots. If I did not have my new Sunday riding lesson, I would be locked in a closet, crying and losing my mind:eek:

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

I know exactly what you mean.
I need to find a distraction.
Apollo likes to jump into the dirty laundry basket. It just makes me smile.
This is what I give Apollo per my vets suggestion and due to his stomach issues. He used to throw up a lot.(pancreas)
A.M-low fat cottage cheese, Greek nonfat yogurt, egg whites(Boiled-take out yellow slice up put in small container lasts a few days)
, low sodium turkey slice(Trader Joe's), supplements

NOON- long WHEAT grain rice( store rice you cook in bag), cooked chicken( I use Trader Joe's just chicken), teaspoon canola oil,

AFTER 4P.M-cooked potatoes with skin, Have alternated with organic baby food-summer veg with pumpkin, turkey with veg, spinach.

Nutri Deni minichew or Greenie
Halo-Live N Little skin & Coat treat with Salmon
Slice apple, sometimes blue berries, honey melon

Stopped whip cream (on weekends only)
GREENIE/NUTRI DENTAL CHEW-MINI-TWICE DAILY
I try to make it as easy as possible.
Hang in there.
Love Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Wow girlfriend, can I eat at your house;) Oh how I would live for the day Zoe could eat even half of such wonderful food.

I have a question, might seem silly but Dr. Oliver said Zoe's numbers are usually what he sees when dogs are licking hormone cream from their owners. It got me thinking what else could she be injesting that could contain hormones?

Does anyone know if a dog eats a raw turkey commercial diet, is it possible the turkey source could have been fed hormones? If so is it possible if the dog eats the meat raw, could it be affected by the hormones?:confused::confused::confused:

I looked up on one sight and it said the U.S. does not feed hormones to their turkeys but recently I saw a contradiction to that statement.:mad:

Just something I wonder about as I wait for Zoe to get well from her colitis. We have been on once a day dose of metronidazole for five days now. This flare is lasting longer but I think it was from the lignans the first week. My mistake. I did not know that lignans work with the bacteria in the dogs stomach so if giving antibiotic, that could change the bacteria and potentially change the way the lignans affect the pup. :rolleyes:

Well, that and fiber for Zoe durring a flare is usually a crapshoot.:eek:

Man, I feel like I am in such a hard place to help Zoe. I mean if she is going to have a flare every three or four months I am right back to the age old question, how is she going to tolerate lysodren?:confused:

I know she is going to need stronger medicine.

Hugs,
Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

I have a question, might seem silly but Dr. Oliver said Zoe's numbers are usually what he sees when dogs are licking hormone cream from their owners. It got me thinking what else could she be injesting that could contain hormones?

Does anyone know if a dog eats a raw turkey commercial diet, is it possible the turkey source could have been fed hormones? If so is it possible if the dog eats the meat raw, could it be affected by the hormones?:confused::confused::confused:


There are no silly questions here, ok? Now I don't have an actual answer to your question...sorry :o:( But...When Harley had his first UTK panel done, Dr. Oliver asked me if I was using any HRT creams/lotions because of the high elevation of Harley's estradiol...I was not and Harley was being fed Innova senior dog food at that time.

I emailed Dr. Oliver about estradiol and here is his comment:


The estradiol can definitely be secreted by adrenal tissues and primary adrenal tumors, but also is formed in other places, like fat cells, hair follicles and the liver. If other hormones are increased on our panel, then it’s likely that the estradiol is being secreted by the adrenals.

Don't know if any of this helps you or not. :confused::o

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Actually yes, Lori it does help because you had the same issues and you were not feeding raw.

Do you know why the adrenals secret estradiol?

I can't remember if we have pups with colitis being treated with lysodren. Do you know?

I am devestated she is sick again. We were so close, Lori, we were so close to making it to be retested while healthy. i feel like a rat in a cage, spinning wheels to no avail.

Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Androstenedione, estradiol, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, progesterone and aldosterone are all adrenal intermediate steroid hormones. Only estradiol can be formed outside of the adrenals...from the liver, hair follicles..etc.

I believe, according to Dr. Bruyette, if a pups cortisol is elevated then more than likey the adrenal intermediate steroid hormones will be too.

Sue's Zoe, had, I think, SIBO, which she got under control with Tylan. Have you thought about using this?

I found this article on colitis, what do you think?
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_colitis.html

Is using Trilostane/Vetoryl worth a try?

Keeping you and sweet Zoe in my thoughts and prayers.

Love and (((hugs)))
Lori

[addy]

Thank you for the link, Lori. I reread it last night. The problem is whenever we run tests for the colitis everything is normal. IMS thinks it is frequent infections from the Cushings and once we control that, flares will be less. I remember someone else on the forum had an IMS with the same thoughts on their pup but it did not play out that way.

Maybe I just don't leave her on the maintenance dose long enough. I worry about the side effects of the metronidazole. We discussed using tylan but IMS said lets stay with metronidazole for now since I am familiar with the drug and she responds to it.

Hubby firmly believes her problems stem from dietary indiscretion (eating junk outside like rotten crab apples, bunny poop, etc) and exposure to pesticide. She has a really sensitive system and tummy. A friend's pup has sensitive tummy and she cannot give one thing new without it causing the pup issues.

I think I will post a new question thread to see about others with IBD or IBS, colitis and Cushings.

How is you baby doing?

I keep going back to the trilostane and wanting to start on a low dose. But then I feel guilty because I know technically, she should not have it because of the intermediate hormones.

If I get her well and she stays well for a month, will the metronidazole show up in her blood work? I would assume it would affect anything to do with the liver. I wonder if I could retest her anyway.

Thanks for listening,

Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Harley is doing pretty good, considering everything he is going through...Thanks so much for asking about him! ;):)


I keep going back to the trilostane and wanting to start on a low dose. But then I feel guilty because I know technically, she should not have it because of the intermediate hormones.

If Harley's kidneys could tolerate the Vetoryl/Trilostane I would be treating him with this medicine with out any guilt what so ever.

Dr. Bruyette has said that if a dogs cortisol is elevated than more than likely the intermediate hormones are elevated too.

We have many members here with pups being treated with Trilostane/Vetoryl that are doing great. One example...Corky! and I am pretty sure Corky's intermediates are elevated but that doesn't cause any problems.

I don't want to "nag you" or seem to be "cramming" the Trilostane/Vetoryl down your throat. I just believe one has to look at the worst of the two evils and decide which to fight. To me it was the cortisol, so many published studies done showing how elevated cortisol will damage a pup. No concrete studies done showing how elevated hormones will damage a pup.

Unfortunately for Harley his kidneys can not tolerate the Vetoryl/Trilostane and his pancreas can't handle the Lysodren...so what does one do.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Oh Lori, you are not nagging or cramming at all. I am nagging myself about it. I worry if I put her on the trilostane all the rest if her hair will fall out because it will elevate the estradiol. That was why I was so desperate to redo her tests in hopes the intermediates were not so high.

Her hindquarters are getting so thin and small. This is on a dog we used to joke about her butt looking so big. I don't know how much longer I can sit and watch this.

Her tail looks worse since I stopped the lignans. Maybe it is coincidence, but her hair looks worse the last few weeks.

Then I think dang that UTK test. If I had not done in in the first place, she would be on the triolstane.

I guess we make an appointment with the IMS after turkey day.

I am glad Harley is doing well in spite of his kidney issues. Something else to be thankful for this Thanksgiving!:)

Hugs,

Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Her tail looks worse since I stopped the lignans. Maybe it is coincidence, but her hair looks worse the last few weeks.


Have you heard of Alopecia X in dogs? Now, no way am I saying that Zoe has this, ok? They treat these pups with Trilostane:


Treating alopecia-X

Alopecia-X is a dermatologic disorder usually described in Pomeranian, poodle, and husky breeds. It is related to an arrest in the normal hair growth cycle and has been associated with deregulation of both growth hormone and adrenal androgen synthesis.23 In classic cases, nonpruritic truncal alopecia occurs; no other signs or changes are noted.

Many of these dogs have elevated concentrations of the precursors to cortisol, particularly 17-hydroxyprogesterone. A recent study evaluating trilostane's effectiveness in 24 affected dogs (Pomeranians and miniature poodles) reported a 90% response rate within eight weeks.24 Trilostane was given once or twice daily, with a mean dose of 10.85 mg/kg/day. No adverse effects were noted, and it was concluded that the hair growth was related to downregulation of adrenal steroid synthesis or inhibition of estrogen receptors within the hair follicles themselves.24 Three affected Alaskan malamutes showed similar positive responses when given 3 mg/kg trilostane twice daily.25

http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=491107&sk=&date=&pageID=5

I thought it was interesting that the Trilostane inhibited the estrogen (estradiol) receptors within the hair follicles...hmmm.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I know that we tend to worry about everything. I take most things that are said with a grain of salt.

Lori is absolutely correct in saying that Corky's intermediates are elevated, but they are not causing any problems for him. To be honest with you, I've never read what them being elevated can actually do or cause.

Even though there are authorities in the various area, we are the ones that know our pups the best. Sometimes we need to go against certain recommendations if we feel that it is the best thing to do.

Hang in there my friend. Please don't stress too much. I know, easier said than done. :D You are taking such good care of your babies.

[StarDeb55]

Addy, to continue what Lori has posted about Alopecia X, Chewy has had thinning hair, a big bald spot on his butt, & his tail looks awful for a year, now, & he is my Lhasa boy. My derm vet worked him up for allergies over a year ago, & he has been on allergy shots since then with no real improvement. I do find it a little odd that he seems to have grown back the hair on his right hip & leg from his knee surgery, though. Anyway, my derm vet & I had this big discussion about Alopecia X twice within this past year. He told me that one of his partners is using very low dose trilostane in these situations & has been very successful in seeing regrowth of hair. He also had me put Chewy on a trial run of melatonin + lignans as he said, "melatonin should regrow hair, no matter what." After 4 months, I saw no improvement, so stopped those 2. At the time, I told the derm vet that I thought even low dose trilo administration was way too excessive simply to try to fix hair loss/poor hair growth. Alopecia X is really a cosmetic issue, doesn't hurt the pups, bothers the owner's worse. As Glynda has reminded me a couple of times this past year that quoting Dr. Bruyette, "the best treatment for Alopecia x is a dog sweater."

Debbie

[addy]

Thank you. Lori, I think what you are trying to tell me is to reconsider the trilostane if they use it for Alopecia X why am I worried about Zoe's hair:) I love the subtle hint:D;)

The hair issue is sad but the start of the hind leg weakness, thinning of the back hips and legs, and what I can't see the cortisol doing bothers me more. That's what I meant about not being able to sit and watch this anymore.

Deb- how will being on the metronidazole affect her blood work? Would it affect her UTK test? How long would I have to wait to clear it out of her system to retest? Obviously, 3 or 4 months is too big of a gamble, she can't stay well that long.

Terri, thank you for your moral support. You know what a worry wart I am:rolleyes:

Thanks guys,:)
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Wish I could wave a magic wand for you.:o Apollo has had pancreatitis throughout his life and the Trilostane seems to have decreased the upset stomach. As far as trying the Trilostane. Apollo has done well on the low dosage. The hind leg weakness is still there, the fur has come back, differently. Still dealing with skin issues. It is like I am looking for something to go wrong. :eek:
I don't know how it effects the hormones.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Well, I did find a doctor that worked with Dr. Feldman. I guess I will see IMS after Thanksgiving and then go interview this new vet. He seemed quite confident about using Trilostane with Zoe. Can't hurt to talk to him:confused:

Even hubby is worried now and wants to move forward instead of this limbo we have been in.

She had an accident in the house this morning. It is always in the morning around 10:00am. Always when her schedule has changed for the day. She has not had an accident at any other time. Weird huh? She gets her melatonin around 7:00-7:30 am.

She scans the street now looking for something to eat. Maybe the dietary indescretion will get better when she is treated, she won't be looking for junk to eat outside.

I think I have made up my mind. We will see if I change it. I think I will try the Trilostane. If she is 18 to 18.5 pounds could I go with 20mgs so I don't have to compound? I thought it came in 10mgs.

Hugs,
Addy

[labblab]

Thank you for the link, Lori. I reread it last night. The problem is whenever we run tests for the colitis everything is normal. IMS thinks it is frequent infections from the Cushings and once we control that, flares will be less. I remember someone else on the forum had an IMS with the same thoughts on their pup but it did not play out that way...


If I get her well and she stays well for a month, will the metronidazole show up in her blood work? I would assume it would affect anything to do with the liver. I wonder if I could retest her anyway.

Hi Addy,

I believe I'm the person you're thinking of -- my IMS was also hoping that my Cushpup's GI issues would improve once his cortisol was brought under control. It didn't turn out that way, but my dog was no worse after starting on trilostane. There really didn't seem to be any big difference to me. He still had periodic episodes of diarrhea, so I ended up guessing that it was just unrelated to the Cushing's.

In our case, we did not delay starting the trilostane treatment due to the diarrhea. My dog was extremely symptomatic and extremely miserable: excessive appetite, thirst, and urination; panting; hair loss; muscle wasting. Sadly, he was a "poster child" for the disease. So the other issues trumped any concern about diarrhea. And as I say, his diarrhea didn't worsen with treatment. It just didn't really improve.

I'm not certain as to what you are asking in terms of the metronidazole affecting Zoe's test results. I don't think the medication itself would skew any of the hormone results, if that is what you are wondering.

I, too, don't want to be pushing you into trilostane treatment prematurely. However, all I can tell you is what my own experience was with my dog. And if and when you reach a similar point -- where the Cushing's symptoms are becoming problematic -- you may want to go ahead and opt for treatment regardless of Zoe's diarrhea. Once again, if the treatment doesn't help or creates more problems, you can always stop.

Marianne

[addy]

Thank you Mariane, it helps to hear your story. Is Zoe having frequent infections-no, is she drinking and peeing buckets-no, is she panting-no, does she have muscle wasting-yes, does she seem hungrier-yes is she drinking more water-yes for her but not more than what is considered normal for a pup her size, is she peeing more than in years past? yes, we do take her out more but we have gotten into that habit because our Koko has to go out more so we always took her too, she has gotten used to it. But she also has had a few accidents in the house,Is Zoe's hair and skin thin-yes.

Last March she flew around the house, jumping on the bed, in the car, she no longer can do those things. The melatonin slows her down, I notice a difference if I forget to give it to her.

Zoe is not a poster dog for Cushings but I can't help but start to feel an urgency to help my dog as I see the changes in her.

I wondered how the metronidazole would affect her blood work, her blood chemistry test, etc.

If the Trilostane ends up increasing her intermediate hormones, if you withdraw the trilostane, do the intermediate hormone levels come down or do they stay elevated? Does anyone know? Should I ask Dr. Oliver?

It has been a hard month here on the forum, perhaps that is pushing me to act as well.

Hugs and thank you so very much for your opinions. I can't tell all of you how much your ideas and thoughts and help mean to me.

Addy

[addy]

quick question: HMR lignans- is it still 1mg per pound? UTK site is vague saying 10-40 mgs for small to large dog. Want to purchase in U.S.

want to switch until test is done, don't have time to email Dr. O.

thanks,
Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Since HMR lignan’s bioavailability to the body is better than SDG flax hull lignan, this allows reduced doses to be used.

According to this statement that I copied from the LIGNANS (Phytonutrients) sheet, my guess, would be no.

It also goes on to say:
The above products can give different dosing levels depending on the number of capsules used, but total doses of 10 to 40 mg daily should be adequate for small to large dogs.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/diagnostic/endocrinology/pdf/20100810-LIGNAN-Write-Up-Revision03.pdf

So, I gather that dogs getting HMR lignans get doses ranging from 10mg to 40mg daily depending on their size?

For Zoe, I believe, I would give her 10mg.

Not much help, am I???...Sorry. :(

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Lori, you are always a help. I thought perhaps 10 mgs as well.

Great minds think alike.;)

Thank you and I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving!!!!:)

At least I can see how she does until we can get in to see IMS. She said it would be hard over the holidays :mad:

Hugs and BIG thanks!!!
Addy

[addy]

It is not the lignans. She has not had lignans for a week. I tried to go to every other day again with the Metronidazole and same thing happened. Watery mush this morning. Yesterday with no metronidazole, she was fine. it is always the next day a problem when I don't give it.

It has never taken this long to taper off to every other day. Trying to not twitch and stay positive. She lays as if her tummy hurts her. She walks slowly to go outside. Yesterday with no metronidazole she was not as slow.

It will be a long holiday.

Addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Addy,

I am so sorry Zoe is not feeling better and I hope she is feeling herself soon...sending healing thoughts your way for sweet Zoe.

I am just wondering if her system is getting used to the metronidazole, and if switching to the Tylan would be an option?

Please keep us posted, ok?

Love and (((hugs)))
Lori

[littleone1]

I wish I had some answers for you, Addy, but I've never used any of the things you are giving Zoe.

I hope you will be able to get some positive answers soon.

(((HUGS)))

[addy]

Finally heard back from IMS. We are to go back to twice a day dosing of metronidazole for 2 weeks, add the lignans back in to the mix and see how she does. If she does not respond then we will switch to tylan.

Lori, she brought up switching to tylan, I did not have to;)

She said the change in routine and excitment of Thanksgiving and company could be a problem for her so definetely give her 2 doses a day.

She seemed a bit better today but still lays as if her tummy hurts after she eats. She did want to walk a bit this afternoon and I had to fish a crabapple out of her mouth:eek:

One day at a time, I guess. We will see how the next 2 weeks go.
She still looks thin but she has not lost weight.

I am going to call the local vet I found who worked with Dr. Feldman. He said he could overlook Zoe's care and work with her IMS and me. I want to interview him and move forward setting that up.

I should feel better I have a short range plan. I don't.:(

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Love you all:)

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[frijole]

Addy, hang in there. I think you are doing great. I would be sooo happy to have a local person that had worked with Feldman. That is great. Keep up the good work! Happy Thanksgiving! Kim

[addy]

Hi All,

If I am being anal, just be honest and tell me. I need to give Zoe probiotic once a day, metronidazole (antibiotic) twice a day and lignans twice a day. Since they all work with the bacteria in her I am worried about the timing of the doses.

I know I can give lignans and probiotic at the same time. I thought I could give probiotic and metronidazole (antibiotic) a minimum of 2 hours apart ( twelve being ideal)

Not sure of the metronidazole and lignans.

Any input? Does it not matter?

IMS mentioned how "thorough" I always am. Other vets also comment on that. I am starting to get a complex:rolleyes: I worry they don't want to deal with me. It took IMS two weeks to call me back.:eek:

If I am being anal, just be honest and tell me the truth, the truth does not bother me.

Love you all,
Addy (Ms. It is in the Details)

Moderator's Note: Addy, I have merged your recent post concerning scheduling Zoe's medications into Zoe's original thread. We, normally, prefer that all posts on a pup be kept on the original thread as it makes referring back to the pup's history easier for other members.

[frijole]

Addy - you are wise to think of these things. I know that you do need to give the a/b and probiotic 2 hrs apart (more or less) as I researched it. I have no idea about the lignans. Kim

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Hope you had a restful Thanksgiving. Doesn't look like it from your posting.
I am praying for you and Zoe. Apollo throw up on the bed yesterday morning just vial. But my alarms are up. He has always had stomach issue. Will post his progress on my thread also.
His hind leg weakness is not getting better. All I can say is it started around June. Since starting the Trilostane his coat has grown, his tail is scatter with hair and bold here and there. I started the Duraclin yesterday and keeping a log on to any changes. I will stop the Trilostane when I finish the liquid . Which should be by Monday.
To reassure you if you start Trilostane you can always stop it without any major side effect. Also Apollo weighs 10lbs and started ate 10mg. He is on 12.5 mg now for the hind leg weakness. Zoe's stomach issue could improve with the Trilostane. It has for Apollo, other then the occasionally throwing up. I then give him a quarter of a table of Pepsi bismol.
hugs Sonja and Apollo
On the lighter side, while walking yesterday, a man came up to us and said"Dogs are angels with paws". I gave him the thumbs up.

[addy]

Thank you dear Sonja. Zoe slept later today, more like the old Zoe of last year and her eyes are bright today. She seems happy and alert. She made it throught the commotion of Thanksgiving without much todo except for soft stool. IMS thought it might be worse than that but Zoe handled the stress and excitment of company and bountiful food better than we thought she would;)

We will continue the meds for two weeks and call IMS for further instructions. I have only started back on 1/2 dose of lignans, I know I can't give her full dose yet, no matter what IMS says.

Then we have to evaluate when to redo UTK test and blood work. Then I want to start the Trilostane unless the test or blood work changes something.

Sonja, she looks so thin but weighs the same. Is that muscle wasting all over her body or is it that her coat is so thin we can now see how tiny she really is? She had such a thick, dense undercoat. It is gone now.

I hope the Duralcin helps Apollo. Let me know how he is doing on it. I hope the tummy problems get better for sweet Apollo, too. That is one thing I have about Zoe and the medication. She never throws up so if she would start I would know something is seriously wrong. For Zoe, the problems always come out the other end:eek:

I love it that Apollo has lots of clothes:D Did you take a photo of him in the red and green sweater? I should have Zoe's new sweater from Etsy next week.

Hugs,
Addy

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I'm glad that Zoe is doing better. It's always so nice when they start acting like their normal selves.

It's possible that the thinner hair could make Zoe look thinner. My friend's ShihTzu gets groomed once a month, and after he gets groomed he looks so much thinner. I hope that's all this is with Zoe, and that it's not muscle wasting.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Glad to hear Zoe is doing better.
Apollo used to have the cutest little rump before all this and nice hind leg muscle. He weighs more now and yes it could be the muscle wasting. His hind legs are so thin. The neurological specialist I went to about the muscle wasting said he has very little muscle in the inner thigh. He still has the jaw trembling.
Hug Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Thank you Terri and Sonja, for all of you support.

I worry about Zoe being on the metronidazole so long. IMS says no problem but I worry about that drug. IMS says we can change to tylan so I don't get so freaked out. Maybe it will be better for her. She likes the metronidazole because it also has anti inflammatory properties.

Zoe has never had to be on it this long. IMS says she may just have a really bad bacterial infection (i'm thinking mouse parts) and needs it longerthis time. She does seem better on it twice a day now. She isn't always laying like her tummy hurts her. She still walks slowly outside but maybe it is because it is cold and she really doesn't want to be out there. If I tell her "let's go get some chicken" she walks really fast;)

That is what is bothering me. Why does she need it for so long this time? I can't get past that.

Hugs,
Addy

[frijole]

Addy - maybe she has developed a resistance to the antibiotic since she has been on it so long? I remember reading that a lot of dogs just don't do well with the metro. and that is why they switched over to Tylan. I read lots of good things about it. If you think it is best to make a switch it is OK to take a stand with the vet and say "enough" and on to the next. At our dog's ages every day needs to be quality and Zoe deserves the best, as do you! Good luck. Kim

[labblab]

Hi Addy,

If you do decide to switch to Tylan, I just noticed this sentence about related side effects from the Marvistavet site that Lori cited earlier (http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tylosin.html):


Tylosin [Tylan] may falsely elevate certain liver blood tests (ALT and AST).

This is not to say that you wouldn't want to try Tylan. But just so you'll be forewarned about its possible effect on liver testing results.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

In looking into your question about the lignans and ABs, the only thing I have found is that the Abs may prevent the plant lignans from converting into the mammalian form that can be used. I have found nothing on the timing of dosages.

In light of the problems Zoe has with her digestion, I think I would hold the lignans until she is through with the ABs. If the ABs are preventing the lignans from working as they should, then they may be supplying too much plant fiber for her system. Again, just navel gazing here, but it is a thought worth pondering. ;) Have you talked with UTK about Zoe's problem?

Wish I could help more! :(

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

Thank you Leslie, I took her off the lignans and IMS wants her back on them. I did not think to ask last Wednesday night when she finally called me about the timing. She wanted me to put her back on the lignans and put her on the metronidazole twice a day. I had weaned her down to once a day of metronidazole but could not get her off once a day to go to every other day as in the past.

IMS wanted me to go back to what I was doing when she was well only add the metronidazole to the mix twice a day.

I have added the lignans at 1/2 dose since Thursday and her stool is soft. I am afraid to add the other 8 mgs. IMS said she did not think the lignans were bothering her:confused: I thought I would see how it goes with 1/2 dose for a week and then try the rest of the lignans. I have been giving them almost 4 hours apart. I give her the whole capsule instead of emptying in some food to make sure she gets all of it. Maybe I should go back to the way I used to do as I changed something and changes muddy the waters.:(

The problem is a night. I used to give her half her dose of lignans lat e morning and the other half two hours after dinner. But now I have to give her the ab two hours after dinner.

I never gave Zoe all of her lignans at one time. Kind of worried about doing that.

Thank you so much for your help and all your work.

If she has to go on Tylan does anyone know is that once a day or twice a day?

I am driving myself crazy.
Hugs,
Addy

[frijole]

I don't know what the dosage is you are talking about but I gave tylan twice daily. Same thing as any other antibiotic... give a few hours before or after food and other drugs etc including probiotics.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Wish I could help. All I can say is listen to your gut instinct. Then go over with IMS. They don't always know what is right for our little ones. I believe less is better. Some IMS have a tendency to over prescribe medication in large dosages. I have had battle with them over dosages and not always giving medications for every thing. If I think back , God knows how many medications they put Apollo on for stomach problems, eye infections, ear problems etc. I trusted them.
I have my cape crusader outfit on with sword ready to fight.:eek::D Just kidding. We need to laugh through the tears sometimes.
Hug Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Thank you all for you input.

Sonja, you are exactly right. I am going to listen to my gut. I am here with Zoe and I can see how things affect her. I wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard "well, she should be able to eat that" or "well, that should not bother her" BUT IT DOES:mad:

I'll try putting her other 8 mgs of lignans in with her supper. That was a problem before, don't know why, but we will try again starting Wednesday. If I see soft stools right away I will rethink it. When I gave her the capsule of lignans for 2 days rather than mixing in with fod, she had soft stool. Yesterday I went back to dumping out of the capsule and her stool is firm last night and today. Go figure:rolleyes:

I don't know why her system is so touchy but it is what it is as I well know.

On a happy note:Yesterday, I went for my riding lesson and I cantered for the first time in 20 years. Boy, was I out of breath but it sure felt good. Then I actually got up on a really big Belgian Draft Horse over 17 hands tall and trotted and cantered a bit.

After all the stress of figuring out Zoe, it totally cleared my mind and I came home on cloud nine. In restrospect, I took a bit of a risk on that Belgain but the risk felt soooooo good;)

Have a great week all.

Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

I am so glad you got to have some fun riding. My husband and daughter love to ride--me not so much. They get a lot of friends together lately and go for trail rides. Maddie was a present from my husband good buddy who is a horse shoer (sp.), didn't know if I could spell fairer correctly either.:D Our friend's family is really into the rodeo scene.

Good luck with getting back into giving Zoe all her stuff again.

We up'd the dose on Maddie to 2500mg a week see if that helps, but I am sure we will have to load--my gut--haha!!! Her blood work came back good except for that darn liver number up in the 2000's.

Well I better get to working--too many days off in a row--why did it have to end....:(

[addy]

Hi Marie,

I know, why did it have to end, didn't it feel good not going to work?
Boy, my bubble burst this morning big time:mad: My pups' bubbles burst too when I had to leave.:(

I hope the new dose works for our Maddie girl and you don't have to reload. Is she still panting? Never a dull moment. Did you find a new vet?

I emailed Dr. Oliver today about lignans and antibiotics. Some literature I read seemed to indicate giving both are a waste of time but figured Dr. Oliver should be able to tell me how it all works and what to do. If not, maybe Zoe can be a new case study for him:p:rolleyes:

Yup, my riding lessons are cheaper than a psychiatrist;) better than a xanax too:D Margaritas, well, that is a toss up:p

Hugs,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Yes we did go to a new vet--still had the wait of a life time again--I think it must be a vet thing if they are good ones....:confused: This vet is a lot more knowledgeable about Cushings--lets hope so because she is an IM vet. She was very nice and took her time with us, checked Maddie out. Of course wanted to do tests $$$$--haha!! I opted out of the ultra sound at $300 because I wanted to see what the blood panel test showed. I cannot believe how a blood pressure check can cost almost $50, but then maybe our precious ones are not so precious when they are trying to get a bp cuff on them and in such close range of the teeth:D:D I didn't get a chest x ray also because she said her lungs sounded fine and again wait for the blood panel results. It must have taken an hour and half to get Maddie back after I let them take her for the test. I think I am going to back charge for my time from now on--let's see I had an appt at 10:15am on a Sat morning and got out of there about 1pm most of that was waiting of course--waiting room, in the room, and then the paycheck room (there are 2 different rooms to wait in). I heard someone in the 2nd room say it takes 45 min to check out---oh I can believe that one. I had no idea since it was my first time there. Glynda had recommended them--it is where she takes her little ones. I was promised the results the next day--guess what Tuesday I finally talked to the vet again after 2 messages from me wondering what the results were. Glynda said she would talk to the vet, but I said let's just wait to see how things go the next time.

The vet said everything but her liver looked good, but that is from the Cushings. She talked about possibly changing Maddie to Trilo, but I am not so sure I want her to go a month without anything because of the wash out period. Always confusing. Atleast I know nothing else seems to be wrong. She still is panting, but most everything else seems good. She goes running with my husband--all last week--he is on the bike. She doesn't run as far as she use to, but she still wants to go. I think the arthritis is a little annoying for her, but I opted not to give her anything--she doesn't complain and I still want her alert--didn't like the side effects it might cause. If they could talk it would help.:)

Take care!!

[addy]

I Just heard back from Dr. Oliver. Bless that man for always answering our questions:)

He said antibiotics and lignans should not be a problem, two hours apart dosing should be fine, mix the lignans with the probiotic.

He said consider switching to HMR- I cannot find small enough dose here in the states though

He also said I should consider adding maintenance dose of lysodren.:confused:

which brings me back full circle to my thoughts of 2 months ago:eek:

when I asked IMS about it she said "we usually only load"

and I was confident in my decision to start low dose trilostane after her next UTK test.:rolleyes:

now I am confused again:eek:

Vacillating Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
So glad to hear about your riding. Pretty sad when a friend tells you , you should go out for dinner with them and have some fun. What's that?:eek:
I am going through the same with Apollo. All I know about TRilostane is it does not destroy the adrenal glands which the other drugs can. And it is easy to stop . Why don't you email Dr. Allen at Decha/Trilostane, and run it by him .
Office: (913) 327-0015
Direct: (913) 748-4836
Fax: (913) 327-0016
Toll Free: (866) 933-2472
Cell: (785) 979-0227

tim.allen@dechra.com
www.dechra-us.com
He has always been very kind in responding to my emails and will even talk to you.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Oh Sonja, what a great idea. Thank you so very much. I will do that Monday!!!!!!

I know I have to change her lignans, the SDG lignans are bothering her. She does not do well with alot of fiber. She tolerates it for a bit and then she cant.

Tonight I gave her full dose of SDG lignans:eek: Figured well, she still has 2 does of metronidazole so I should get a way with it. I think the metronidazole is bothering her. She has never been on two doses for this long.

After I give her night time dose, she just goes and lays like her tummy hurts.

Tuesday I am going down to one dose a day and then calling IMS about the Tylan and her retest schedule.

Wishing us both luck:)

Love,
Addy

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I'm sorry that you're confused again. Sonja is right about Dr. Allen's responding quickly. I have spoken with him on more than one occasion, and he has been very helpful. I hope that you will get good answers to your questions and will soon be able to start Zoe's treatment.

Hang in there. We're here for you and Zoe.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Will be praying for you and Zoe. That is what is nice about this forum , we help each other and can get different prospective from each other.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

Dr. Oliver rarely recommends Trilostane for pups with elevated intermediate hormones because Trilo has been shown to further elevate those hormones. This is more than likely why he said you should consider a maintenance dose of Lyso - it will not raise those hormone levels but rather will lower all of them with the possible exception of estradiol, which is where the melatonin and lignans come into play.

With Atypical pups, a loading phase in not needed as the goal is not to erode the cortex of the glands but rather to kinda stun them a bit on a consistent basis with a maintenance dose and schedule. If it were Squirt and her cortisol were normal, I would flat refuse to allow her to be loaded.

Based on Squirt's last UTK panel, and assuming nothing else could be causing the increase in her cortisol level, we will be looking at starting Lyso ourselves. There will be no discussion of using Trilo with her. It makes no sense to me to give her a drug that will raise the very things I have been working so hard to lower. I KNOW the Lyso will have a positive effect on the hormones, all of them except possibly the estradiol. The melatonin and lignans have worked there for her - her estradiol is normal again.

I think it comes down to who we place our faith in for what. In the arena of Atypical and intermediate hormones, I trust Dr. Oliver and his staff completely - over and above anyone else. This is his bailiwick, his focus, and he and his team have lead the research in Atypical Cushing's. Yes, there is still much that is not known, much to learn and discover, and as a result, much controversy. But I place the treatment of my baby's condition with Dr. O and UTK because I believe they know and understand more about these hormones than anyone else today. When I read or hear of someone poo-pooing Atypical, the treatment, and/or Dr. Oliver, my weird old mind can't help but wonder how today's scientific community would look at Fleming and others who discovered penicillin by playing with rotten food. :eek:;)

Just MHO here, sweetie. Zoe is your baby and you have to decide who to trust, with what, and when. Squirt doesn't have the problems with her digestive system that Zoe does; they are bio-individuals so what works for one may not for the other. I do know that you are an exceptional mom who is going above and beyond to do the right thing for Zoe - so whatever you do, will be the right thing for her.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls :D - always

[addy]

Important : If I load her with Lysodren and her digestive system can't handle it besides causing diahrrea what else could happen?

Her numbers were sky high across the board and if it were not for her digestive issues, I agree she should be loaded and put on lysodren. But because of her digestive issues I firmly believe she will have problems with it, IMS figures she will mostly likely have problems as well.

I am terrified there is something else going on with Zoe and I pray it is not diabetes starting to rear its ugly head. I HAVE to have her retested with all blood work, urinaylsis, UTK panel. I had planned on doing it now but then her latest flare up started and I could not wean her off the flaygl so I did not want to test again when she is sick as I firmly believed it skewed the numbers somewhat the first time. last May.

I see a change in my little girl from where she was last March when this all started. I fear it is her Cushings progressing. I don't want to keep waiting and waiting to get her tummy well because it will never happen for very long.

I don't want to start her on either Trilostane or Lysodren without new tests.

I need to change her lignans and change her to tylan but I can't make all those changes at once because I won't know where I am at. I can't start the new lignans until I see if I can wean her off the metronidazole to one dose. I refuse to keep her on twice a day metronidazole, it is bothering her, I know it is.

Everthing takes so long and in the mean time she needs help and now I am really getting stressed because i am pouring out my heart's fears and frustrations because how can I do this all when it takes so long and she needs help now?

Leslie, Lori, how do I do all of this and not take another six months to treat her Cushings? It already has been six months.

Okay, having major melt down now. I held all that in too long:eek:

Addy

[labblab]

Addy, can you remind us as to Zoe's cortisol level when she was last tested in May?

Thanks,
Marianne

[addy]

Yes, Marianne it was 304.4 but you have to convert it and I thought when we converted it, it came out to 32 post. But she was extremely stressed trying to bite everyone, she was that bad, and have diahrrea so I thought that may have contributed to her high numbers or is that wishful thinking on my part? That was the end of May.

That was why I wanted her retested when her diahrrea was controlled and to do the test in a way to limit her stress. They shaved her, did ultra sound then did lab draw and then finally did test for UTK panel. We had been at emergency for 3.5 hours by then with no food since night before. She does not do well when fasted.

I must sound like a broken record to all of you. I'm sorry. :o

addy

[Harley PoMMom]

Deep breaths, Addy ;):) ...These are Zoe's UTK results from 5/27/2010. Her post cortisol, when converted is 30.4.


Zoe's test, sky high numbers, she was severly stressed and had colitis flare up going on for over a month, her symptoms are still mild,mostly coat and tail as they were then:

UTK Adrenal Panel Thu, 5 /27/2010 11:27 AM
Results/Comments
Endocrinology Lab Case# EN 10-4088
Test: Result: Normal Range** Result Normal Range**
(post ACTH)
Cortisol ng/ml 47.7 2.1-58.8 304.4* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml 1.05* 0.05-0.57 7.69* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 114.8* 30.8-69.9 102.2* 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.99 0.3-0.49 5.91* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml 1.18* 0.08-0.77 20.33* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml *** 33.9 11-139.9 357.1 72.9-398.5
* Above or below reference range
** Mean normal range values for spayed female dogs (N=36). QNS = Insufficient sample.
*** Normal range values for male and female dogs (N=72 baseline, N=23 post-ACTH.
These results indicate presence of increased adrenal activity. (SIGNIFICANT)
Comments: Values are increased as indicated.

Addy

IMO, if you think the Lysodren will bother Zoe's colitis then I would treat her with a low dose of Trilostane.

I respect Dr. Oliver immensely but like I've mentioned before...one has to figure out which of the two evils one needs to fight and the one evil that they believe will do the most harm.

So many published studies by many Drs. done on elevated cortisol doing harm on our pups but I can not seem to find any concrete studies on elevated hormones doing the kind of damage that elevated cortisol can.

With my boy Harley, he has kidney disease now...I am sure this is because I waited too long to treat him appropriately.

Sending big, loving hugs your way, Lori

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

The number one side effect listed for Lysodren is gi upset so if I were in your shoes and wanted to start treatment, like Lori, I would start with a low dose of Trilostane. If you feel more comfortable with additional testing, then I would suggest you do an acth stim test for both validation and a baseline to use in monitoring treatment. I seem to recall that Zoe is stressed out at the vet's office but the pre cortisol draw number of 4.7 ug/dl done back in May is well within the normal basal range, which would not be indicative of a dog that is highly stressed out. However, if you are worried that Zoe's stress levels could skew the test, why not ask the vet if you can stay with her during the entire process.

Everything I've read indicates that a dog with elevated cortisol will also have elevations in intermediates. Therefore, if one believes that Trilostane should never be given to a dog with elevated intermediates, then Trilostane should never have been approved by the FDA and nobody on this forum with a typical cushdog should be treating their dogs with Trilostane. I too have a lot of respect for Dr. Oliver and trust his judgement relative atypical cushing's but even then, it's difficult to not be swayed by convincing arguments presented against atypical and it's treatment presented by some of the world's top specialists in endocrinology. I believe these specialist acknowledge that there is something called atypical wherein dogs present as a cushingoid dog yet have normal acth and low dose test results but nobody seems to know what atypical really is and what causes it. I think it's a given that UTK needs to go a lot further in providing the veterinary community (and Lori and me :D) with supporting evidence via sanctioned studies/clinical trials.

Glynda

[frijole]

Addy - Throwing in my two cents because I know you have read Annie's 'saga'. Remember how we had her on lysodren? Her inappetance episodes before lysodren were very rare - like once every 3 mos she would skip ONE meal. Once on the lysodren it got bad and fast. Of course I have no idea how much of it was the bleeding ulcers from the helicobacter but regardless... a part of me just wonders if the lysodren hasn't affected her sense of taste. I know that I might end up in your shoes up the road and I have to say... as of right now... I would elect to put Annie on trilostane because I wouldn't want to disturb the eating habits any more than they already are. Hugs, Kim

[addy]

IMO, if you think the Lysodren will bother Zoe's colitis then I would treat her with a low dose of Trilostane.

anything new bothers her; 1 tablespoon of new food will give her diarrhea, her heartworm medicine gives her bad poops, rimadyl knocked her down and she could not even walk after one dose. I always have to give something new just a little, allow time to adjust, repeat until we get to where we need to be. do you think i am being too paranoid? She gets diahrrea from crab apples, bunny poops or walking just a litttle on pesticide grass. Dang, she is this delicate little dog with these huge eyes, her feet freeze in the snow after two minutes she can't walk, she reverse sneezes if she gets excited, am I being too overprotective?


With my boy Harley, he has kidney disease now...I am sure this is because I waited too long to treat him appropriately

This worries me as well, I don't want to wait too long fo Zoe


seem to recall that Zoe is stressed out at the vet's office but the pre cortisol draw number of 4.7 ug/dl done back in May is well within the normal basal range, which would not be indicative of a dog that is highly stressed out. However, if you are worried that Zoe's stress levels could skew the test, why not ask the vet if you can stay with her during the entire process.

she tried to bit everyone, including me, IMS said she was beyond her stress limit and did not do complete full physical exam because of her behavior, she went outside and had horrible watery squirty poop and when we got home she threw up. She never throws up.


Once on the lysodren it got bad and fast.

This is what concerns me, if Zoe has a bad reaction to Lysodren and I read that 30% of them do what are the long term affects? I guess we cannot say for sure.

Thank you all for your "two cents" I value your opinions and ideas.
Dr. Oliver did not say she could not have Trilostane. I told him of Zoe's chronic problems and how we might have to resort to Tylan for 3 months. He said he would "prefer" to see her on maintenance does of Lysodren along with melatonin and lignans because all her numbers are high.

Which is why I want her retested. I want to see if they are still so high. I need to know that answer. It is paramount to me.

If the Trilostane elevates her intermediate hormones would they go down after withdrawing the Trilostane or do they stay elevated unless I give her Lysodren?

Leslie, thank you also for your post. I always appreciate your slant on things:)

Hugs to all, my bronchitis is really bad, looks like I'm going on Prednisone:eek:

Still need to load pixes of Zoes sweater:)

Love you all bunches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Addy

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

Corky's intermediates are elevated, and after he had the 2nd adrenal panel done, some of them increased slighlty. That was after he was taking the Trilo for many months. They have not caused any problems for Corky. I make sure that he has a full chem panel done everytime he has a stim test. His blood work has always been good, with a few things slightly elevated.

Corky's IMS felt that Trilo would be much easier on Corky than the Lyso.

I know there are so many decisions to make, and you need to do what you believe is best for Zoe.

(((HUGS)))

[addy]

Dear Friends,

I think I need to regroup. The news now of little Lacey is too hard to bear.

Sonja- I hope when I can come back to the forum in a while, Apollo will be doing well.

Terri- I hope our Corkster continues to improve.

Leslie- Praying for little Trinket and Squirt

Kim- Hoping Annie continues to have a good day

Lori- Give Harley lots of belly rubs for me.

Glynda- I want to see Lulu in her new sweater

And to all the rest of you God speed.

I will be back in a bit. I need to reflect, gather my strength and get Zoe straight.

I won't be gone long, just a mini break.

Happy Holidays to my dearest friends,

With love and devotion,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Addy,

Don't you go away for long. :( I know how heart-breaking it has been for our family lately and how tough Lacey's passing is to face. But don't let these loses push you over the edge, honey. Take time to grieve, to talk with your friends and family, to be with Zoe just for the companionship and joy of her company....but remember that we love you and Zoe and want you back with us as soon as you can.

Please take care of you and come back to us. We will miss you til then.

Many hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
I have been thinking about you. I can't stop crying either. Every Time I go on the forum we have new members and loose beloved fur balls at the same time.
I wish I could give you a hug. I think all we would do would be crying in each other's arms. My dear friend.
Had a hard week my self. Posted on my thread.
Apollo stopped Trilostane on Dec 4th. Was told by holistic vet to give it a few weeks. Worried stomach problems may start again and other symptoms.
If it eases your fear, Apollo has always had stomach problems and the Trilostane has seemed to ease it some and he has been doing good on it other then the hind leg, muscle wasting in the back. This is a wicked disease.

I don't give Apollo heartworm medication nor flea control only natural one now, no rabie shot either.
You are in my prayers sweet friend, get on that horse and throw a way the worries even if it is for a short time. My friends , family are worried about me. Have even said I need a little bit of fun to ease some of the stress.
Love always Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Hi All,

Finally I have stopped coughing and off the prednisone, yes!!!!

Zoe's new lignans came today. I had a conversation with someone about the HMR lignans and found out they also have filler in the capsules. All capsules do. He said if I gave half capsul each day, one day Zoe would get 20 mgs, next day 10mg, I would never know really how much by dividing the capsule because of the filler so I ordered powder SDG lignans from Heartland. We will attempt once again tomorrow to cut back the metronidazole and then start the new lignans. My theroy is the filler in the capsules might be agrevating her colon along with the extra fiber from the lignans. We shall see:) Her spirits are good but she continues to look very thin.

As soon as the holidays are over we go for recheck and hope to start maintenance dose of lysodren. I feel calm about it.

We decided to do something different this year and have decorated our tree with beautiful bird ornaments. We call it "Zoe's Tree". Hubby has bought every bird ornament in Milwaukee:D

Our present to each other is a shopping trip for the rescue group we adopted Zoe and Koko through. They have a wish list on Target.com and we plan on buying ALOT for them:D

I can't think of a better present for us:)

Happy Holidays everyone,

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[Roxee's Dad]

Hi Addy,

Although I don't post much I have been following you and Zoe and just wanted to mention that I do remember one member here who was giving compounded Trilo that had an additive / filler / dye that their pup was allergic to. :( the pharmacy removed the dye and all went well after that.

Regarding the shopping trip for your local rescue...I'm sending you big smiles for helping to make a magical Christmas come true. :D:D:D

[apollo6]

Glad to here you are doing better.
What a wonderful christmas present.
Give a big hug to Zoe and you.
Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi John,

I follow your thread too :) I love to watch the swim sessions:D

When I measured out the 2 capsules of Vita Cost it came to about 1/2 teaspoon of filler and lignans. With the new powder, Zoe will only take 1/8 teaspoon. I am hoping it will make a difference. She does not do well with fiber.

The founder of Zoe and Koko's rescue group has MS. She is pretty remarkable. I don't know how she gets it all done really. I admire her greatly. I love giving presents. It is the greatest gift for me, to be able to give. I can't wait to shop!!!!:D:D:D I owe my pups to them.

It has been too cold to walk, the pup's paws freeze. I spent all last week carrying Zoe in and out. We are doing laps down the hallway every morning. They seem to love it.

My favorite thing is to lay on the floor with the pups and cuddle, staring at Zoe's Tree. We added a squirrel, a fox, a rabbit and a bird's nest. I love Zoe's Tree.

Hugs, Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Aw, Addy,

When I read your post about Zoe's tree and hubby buying bird ornaments, then about the gifts you are going to give each other, well, the tears started to flow. I just fell head over heals in love with you and your hubby.

Sending huge hugs to you and Hubby, belly rubs to Zoe and Koko.

Leslie and the girls - always

[marie adams]

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and a Happy New Year!!!!

The emotions are sooo up and down with our furry ones. You go nuts trying to think did they do this before or just a week ago.

Maddie's at the vet as I type this for a stem test and the vet's taking a look at her left hind leg for problems--I wrote more about it on her thread.

I need to try to work---sure my head is not in it, but the pressure is on from my manager--no vacation till you hit your numbers--at this point not sure that will happen--so burned out on sooo many levels--haha!!! We are suppose to be positive and soar like an eagle and not quack like a duck complaining. Be positive and not stress because it will make you sick---soooo let's soar like the eagle above it all!!!!:)

(((Many hugs to you and Zoe!!!!)))

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I'm so glad that you were able to make a decision that you are comfortable with. I hope everything goes well.

I love the idea of Zoe's tree. I think that is such a wonderful idea. God bless you and your husband for thinking of the furbabies in the shelter. Your thoughtfulness shows the true meaning of Christmas.

I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas.

Give Zoe some belly rubs from me.

(((HUGS)))

Luv ya,

Terri and Corkster

[addy]

Thanks guys.

After a discussion with Dr. Oliver at UTK with Zoe having to be on extended tylon or flagyl, we decided maintenance dose is best right now. Dr. Oliver thinks it is best to try this and we will give it a go.

I just want her to feel better. Funny, but I am not scared or worried but actually quite calm. Perahps because I have Dr. Oliver's support has made me feel better. Acutally, he suggested it for her.

Leslie is right. I have to trust someone.

Leslie, the adoration is mutual:D

I feel sooooooo much better;)

Addy

[marie adams]

Oh Addy, I am so glad you are calm--it is such a nice feeling when you get comfortable and you see signs of Zoe feeling better--back to things they did or some of the symptoms going away.

You are such a generous and giving person and bless you for that!!! Good things will come your way--pay it forward as they say...:):)

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Just a check in. Hope you and Zoe are doing okay.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

We are fine thanks. We have managed to cut back to half of our evening dose of metronidazole. We had to stop half of our old lignans to ge there. If all is well today, we will start new lignans tomorrow.

Zoe has lost weight, she seems to urinate longer and is more urgent to go out. I pray it is not diabetes. We go for recheck January 10th.
I did not want to send out tests during the holidays. Since cutting back on the metronidazole alittle she is more spunky. I hope to see more improvement when we go to one pill a day and restart full lignans.

I think there is something else going on with Zoe besides Cushings. We will find out soon enough, don't want to dwell on it now.

I have found acceptance of it all. Now we move forward to help her the best way we can. She still jumps on my chest every morning and tries to stick her tongue in my mouth every time I yawn. Her personality is still there. I am grateful for that.

Love you all,
Addy

[littleone1]

You have a wonderful outlook on things. We get very upset with anything different that happens. Take it easy and wait until you get the lab results.

The weight loss could be due to a number of things. In the stressful two weeks that Corky had, he lost 1.1 pounds. With the more frequent urinating, it is possible that Zoe could have a UTI that wasn't detected.

Wait until you get the results of the tests. Then, as you said, you can move forward and help Zoe in the best way you can.

(((HUGS)))

Luv ya my dear friend,

Terri, and of course our Corkster.

[labblab]

Addy, I'm still thinking that the problems you are seeing may just be related to increasingly elevated cortisol as opposed to other new problems developing. My Cushpup was contrary to the norm and instead of gaining weight, he lost weight prior to treatment. So I can tell you that it does happen. I'm guessing that, on one hand, you're hoping that the retesting won't show that Zoe's cortisol is truly elevated. But on the other hand, that could explain a lot of her problems. And if that's the case, you may have an answer of sorts and the Lysodren will really help her. That's surely what I will be hoping!

Lots of holiday hugs being beamed your way,
Marianne

[addy]

Hi Marianne,

You are probably right about the cortisol. I guess I would hope retest would should blood work and all of that ok and perhaps decrease in her intermediates a little. I was hoping cortisol may be down a tad but now with the increasing symptoms, I would expect not. Dr. Oliver said her numbers were very high and that he did not expect the lignans and melatonin to bring anything down much. She needs the lysodren. If anything, if her retest shows everything ok but high UTK panel, I'll jump for joy as crazy as that sounds:eek:

Never thought I would be happy that it was only Cushings:rolleyes::rolleyes:

When she stops trying to stick her tongue in my mouth, I will be really worried:eek::eek::D;)

Ho, Ho, Ho,

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
At least you have a sense of humor. We need to keep being hopeful.
Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

I'm manic for sure.

Not sure how hubby can tolerate me. I am either bawling or cracking jokes. Odd what this Cushings stress does to a person.:rolleyes:

No middle ground for Addy!!!!!:eek::rolleyes::o

Every morning before we get out of bed I tell Zoe "Good morning, it is a beautiful day. You are still here. You are my most beautiful dog and Mommy loves her little girl very much." And then I try to blank my mind out.

Yesterday she had really bad poops. This morning she is better. I am going to run a stool sample in to the local vet. Just as a double check. This flare up is so different than the others. I want to do a gardia check too. Don't they check 3 different stools for that?

Could of been stress. Our schedule is all over the place and Sunday we thought we locked them in the kitchen but never closed the door or left a light on. We thought we'd be gone an hour and were gone much longer.

The two of them were stressed out when we got back, looking out the door for us in the dark. Koko kept doing calming signals. Thank goodness Koko did not get into the tree or anything else!!!!

He was a good big boy.:D:D We were were lucky he did not chew up anything!!!!

Merry Christmas!!! Happy Holidays!!!!

Love you all,

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[marie adams]

Just a quick one...

I cannot tell you not to stress. I know the tears and jokes and especially blanking out the mind. I seem to blank more than anything and don't hear everything, but then that might just be the ears and age.:D

Take care we are hanging in there, but sad.

Merry Christmas!!!

[addy]

This is absolutely driving me nuts. Monday we had squirty water poops, put back on 2 full doses metronidazole and figured well, might as well start new lignans if we are increasing metronidazole. Next day small hard pellets like she used to have. Cut back evening metronidazole dose again by 1/4 and held my breath. Yesterday small firm pellets, she wanted to take a walk and her spirits were really good and she was not lethargic.Continued new lignans and smaller metronidazole dose in the evening.

This morning again, small firm pellets and she is alert and happy.

Called local vet. They only can do a fecal float to check for worms or parasites. They cannot to fecal smear or check for bacteria or giardia. I would have to send out for that. With the holidays, I worry I would not get good test results so will wait to see what IMS says about stool sample I guess.

When I thought it was the lignans the first time and stopped them her poops were like this but then when I tried to stop the evening dose of metronidazole, we had watery, squirty poops. So we went back on full doses of metronidazole and old lignans and had big, really soft mushy, stool. So then I cut back old lignans by half and I got alittle firmer stool but still very soft.

Now we are on new lignans and I have small firm pellets like I should have. Seems like it was the filler in the lignans, doesn't it?

Well, nothing ever lasts with Zoe so will wait to see what tpmorrow will bring but it would sure be a nice Christmas present to have bad poops under control:rolleyes:

I just don't get it:eek::eek::eek:

Almost time for Santa!!!!!!!

Love ya all,

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[littleone1]

Addy my friend, don't fret too much. Take it one day at a time. Hopefully, you will be able to get the right combination of meds that will let Zoe's poops be normal and under control.

(((HUGS)))

Luv ya,

Terri and Corkster.

[addy]

I know Terri, I am afraid I am obsessed with poo:eek::eek:

I just have a hard time when things are not logical.:o

I had gotten better with it but I think I need to go to "poo obsession annonymous":eek::eek::eek:

Merry Christmas,
Addy

[me and my twiglets]

I had gotten better with it but I think I need to go to "poo obsession annonymous":eek::eek::eek:
Addy

Dear Addy

Wishing you and yours a Merry Christmas, and hope the "poopy" is how it should be:D

Love
Denise & twiglets
(Bonnie is still my lil twiglet)

[addy]

Thank you Denise. I hope your Christmas was merry and that your New Year will be happy and bright.

One week on new lignans and all is well. Will try again to stop evening metronidazole dose Thursday night. I did give her extra dose Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. IMS said give extra durring stressful holidays or changes in routine. Seemed to work because she even had a bully stick and extra food and had no problems.

Crossing my fingers for Thursday night. She is down to 17.5 pounds. She was 18 pounds at Thanksgiving.:( I think it is muscle wasting.

See IMS January 6th. Saying a prayer for my little girl that something else has not surfaced besides Cushings.

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Sorry off line for awhile. I get so overwhelmed by it all that sometimes I need a break. As far as the weight loss is concerned, Apollo had lost about a half pound also, don't know if stress of what we are going through or just out of his normal feeding routine. I watch every pop he does looking for color, if any blood, if firm or loss. Think we could write a book " A day in the life of cushing pop"
Apollo has been off the Trilostane since Dec 4th. Other then the weakness in his hind legs he is in good spirits, appetite. I am watching for signs of cushing's symptoms. So far not bad. So what do I do start on the Trilostane again. Harry's mom is having a hard time with Harry. He is having weakness in all four legs. They are in Lake Tahoe close to where our business is and had to go to a local vet. Told to get off Trilostane asap. So I am more worried as to what to do. Know Apollo needs medication but do I watch him even more on the Trilostane?
Have a great New Years. I may be off line until the first, end of month, quarter, year end reports, payroll, etc. to do.
Hugs my dear friend Sonja and Apollo, and Karma

[Marlene]

Addy,
I know how it all drives you completely crazy trying to figure out what to do. I thought I was going to lose my mind. Now, with Lacey gone, there is nothing to do and I am losing my mind even more. It is just phenomenal to me how these babies are a part of every single molecule of our beings. I know just how stressed you are and how difficult it is to even think. They completely trust us and we are so in charge of every decision...the responsibility is overwhelming!! I really, really hope Zoe will "level out" in a healthy zone and both of you can relax and just enjoy each other for a long respite.

[addy]

Oh thank you Marlene. It is so good to hear from you. It brough a huge smile to my face.:D I hope Zoe levels off too. Yesterday she wanted to go for a walk which was good news. She is much better on a lower dose of metronidazole. She does not feel good on a full daily dose. I don't want to switch to tylan now because I don't want to have to then wait again to start her maintenance dose of lysodren.

Hi dear Sonja,

Relieved to hear from you as I was worried about the mud slides and storms I kept seeing on the news.:eek: I think Harry has elevated intermediates doesn't he? I thought he was first diagnosed as atypical. I always wonder about the leg weakness, if there is a connection. Simon had elevated intermediates and had leg weakness too. Just a puzzle for me. If you are not seeing any symptoms returning, maybe wait a bit? Apollo's cortisol came down pretty quickly first time around.

Happy New Year dearest friends.

Addy, Zoe and Koko

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Thank you for all your kind words and of course all the (((((HUGS)))) and kisses for the Maddie Girl. It is so weird how each day is different---she seems all there and the next just lays there. She is still eating and of course the POOP Patrol has good results today.

I am glad Zoe is doing good on her new dose. You are still calm with whatever you decide to do for Zoe--right??? Good luck at the IMS on the 6th. You always do the right thing for Zoe.

Hugs to you both!!! Thanks again for being there and Keep warm--haha!!! We have to keep dry out here--no flooding where I live just have better lake front property--haha, but the birds come back and next so it is beautiful in the wetlands by the beach.:D

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

Can you share with me what happens when Zoe has a flare up? What is the progress of her poop consistancy? Is it bloody and watery? I am very worried about Trinket. :( She is sick again and I don't think this is a virus. I am getting concerned this is something chronic. So if you wouldn't mind sharing your experience with Zoe and how you came to know what her problem is, I would so appreciate it!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - one who is sick again:(

PS. Does Zoe have bright red bloody discharge ever?

[addy]

Leslie, I am so sorry to hear about Trinket. Zoe never had blood in her stool that I noticed because according to her vet, I intervened before it got to that point. I don't know if that is true but I admit to conducting strict poop patrol and freaking out even when her stool got a little mushy. She had been so sick the first go around that I never wanted to get to that point again.

I might have a sight bookmarked at work that explains the different stools to suggest where the problem may be, example, large or small intestine or colon. I'll look when I get to work today.

I know when we are going to a flare up because her stool starts first getting soft, the first poop of the day may be normal and then progresses to soft with a mushy tail on it. We then go to soft to mush ,l ike soft serve ice cream with no form. Then we go to watery squirty poops she cannot control and she will go three or four times like that in a morning, even in the house if I am not watching. She can't control it.

How are you giving the metronidazole? Is she getting it twice a day and is still sick? If you have stopped the metronidazole, she may need to go back on it. Or she may need to switch to tylan. Some dogs take both. She may also need panacur. It is so hard to know. we found the best way to use metronidazole is to wean off it. Twice a day until firm stools for 3-5 days, then lower one of the doses for another 3-4 days , then omit one dose for 3-5 days, then 1 dose every other day for a week, then every two days, etc. Trinket may need to stay on a full dose longer, which we had to do this go around. Is she losing weight? This last flare for Zoe was different then previuos flares of the last 2 years. I could not get in under control as quickly and she lost weight. She never used to lose weight. It could mean her disease is progressing. Her IMS says the fact the she responds to metronodazole means she is producing too much bacteria and the question is why?

If Trinket is still sick and still on the metronidazole then we have a different problem, though Zoe did get sick for one day on her full dose. I cut back her food and omitted lignans and she was better the next day. Letting her system rest by cutting back one meal in half always helped her. I don't know if you can do that with Trinket, she is so tiny.

If I missed something I'll post again at lunch time. Also, metronidazole can cause diarrhea. Are you giving a supplement that could be bothering her? Once they get sick, everything bothers them, especially anything new.

I will admit the Science diet perscription ID helped stop the really bad poops the very first time. We just had to supplement it with white rice and pumpkin and had 4-5 muscus poops a day but the watery squirty stuff stopped and she gained weight. I have a whole case of it that is not expired if you want to try some I will send it to you.

Love ya,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Thanks, Addy! That was helpful! Trink has been on a med called Amforol, not the metronidazole. I have some that was Crys' but it is 500mg - much more than Trink would need and not easily divided into the dose she needs. Dr B may go that route this time.

Trink loses weight while the diarrhea is bad but then gains it right back once it stops.

Trink isn't on any supplements at the moment. There were some in her menu but she hasn't eaten that in 2 weeks now - she has been on brown rice and beef in beef broth only for two weeks. After talking with Cat this morning, we are going to put her on a whitefish and sweet potato diet with slippery elm and see how she does with that. In essence, we are going to start eliminating possible food causes. yippee...

I look forward to seeing the info you have on poops and small VS large intestine issues. ;) Ain't life fun!

Have a good day and thanks so much!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

That sounds really good. I wanted to try Slippery Elm for Zoe last year. I have read good things about Slippery Elm and wish I could try your new diet for Zoe. I can only add one new thing at a time so if we are to start maintnenace dose, can't change food. Who is Cat, if I may ask?

Which started me down this whole road about compounded drugs and if the filler in the capsules of mitotane will bother Zoe or will the oil if I get suspended? I really don't want to start Zoe at more than 25mgs per kg. At which point I decided to email Dr. Allen at Dechra.:confused: I sent him Zoe's adrenal panel. He advised that 80% of dogs with similar adrenal panels are successfully treated with Trilostane, meaning their Cushing's symtpoms resolved and the increased "building block" hormones did not matter.

I will discuss all this info I have gathered with Zoe's doctor next week and after we get all her new tests in. Hubby is worried IMS may be miffed about my research gathering:eek::mad::rolleyes:

I planned to do new serum blood work, blood chemistry panel, urinalysis, repeat the C PL1 and redo adrenal panel with UTK. Ask about stool sample (plan to bring one just in case)

What else do I need done?

Leslie- still looking for the info on poops will send later.

Marie- I am glad Maddie has good days and hope you do as well. I admire you so. And I will always be there for you.:)

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
just checking in to see how you and Zoe are doing.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Hi Sonja,

Thanks for checking on us. We are on day two with no evening dose of metronidazole with no watery squirty poops yet. Of course I am holding my breath, just waiting for them to start:mad:

We see IMS on Thursday and I am stressing trying to figure out how I am going to fast Zoe for that long. She does not do well with fasting. Our appointment is at 9:30 in the morning and they said no food after 9:00pm.:eek:

Her legs are getting weaker, she won't even jump on the sofa now. The rapid onset of this hind leg weakness is really bothering me.

I did not yet take down Zoe's Tree. I want to look at it alittle while longer.

Love ya,
Addy

[addy]

Any thoughts?

I was trying to figure out what stopped the flare last July. Well, lets see, there were eight hamburger buns. Hmmm, don't think we should try that again:eek:

Then there was the starting melatonin. Hmmmmm, lets see, she is on 3mgs twice a day. Seems to me Jane said Dr. Oliver was okay with increasing. Let us add 1mg just in the pm.:rolleyes:

It has been three nights with no evening dose of metronidazole. I added 1 more mg melatonin at night instead. We have not had squirty poops and each day our poops have gotten firmer:confused:

Okay, the IMS thought I was nuts last July when I told her what happened. Don't think I'll mention it Thursday:o

Of course, I have learned not to count my chickens with Zoe. They fly the coop!!!!!! Will see what tomorrow brings.

Shaking my head in Milwaukee,
Addy

[apollo6]

Lost my reply in cyber space.
We are always glad when we see a good pop. Don't listen to what other people say.:mad:

I have the same problem with the hind leg weakness. Apollo's legs seem to want to give out on him. Wish I could help.
Will post on my thread.
Hang in there.
Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Just returned from IMS, Zoe was 16.5 pounds. On October 8th, same scale, she was 18 pounds. Weight then was taken in afternoon non fasting. Shows larger weight loss than my scale at home. I increased her food end of October, still have weight loss. Never lost weight beofre with colitis flare up.

PANIC:eek:

Redid UTK panel, results won't be in for 2 weeks. Redid all blood work, urine test and some Ep1 something test at Texas U. Does not think it is pancreatitis.

Gave me panacur only because I brought up about could it be parasites. Got the impression she only gave it to me to ease my mind and she did not think it was needed.

She does not want to do Trilostane. Is willing to do maintenance dose of Lysodren but her experience is won't be enough to bring numbers down. She really wants to load, I think. Asked her if she ever treated dog with lysodren that had chronic diahrrea. Did not get definite answer. Told her I was worried about gastric upset. She is not worried about it.

Said wait until we get all test results back and see where we are.

Still cannot change food.

Am freaking out about the weight loss being worse than I thought.:(

Trying not to cry and be brave.

May have to repeat ultra sound.

Addy

[addy]

IT IS NOT DIABETES.

I won't have the results of the other tests for probably another week or two but the unexplained weight loss and the worsening leg weakness is not diabetes.

I can breathe again for awhile.

Waiting is hard.

Hugs,
Addy

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I'm so glad that it isn't diabetes.

It's so hard to play the waiting game. It would be so nice if we could get instant answers. Once you get the results back from all of the blood work, I hope that your IMS will make a positive choice on the best treatment for Zoe.

I know the weight loss has really been upsetting you. Zoe might not have lost that much weight, even though she lost weight. The morning Corky had his surgery and they weighed him, he only weighed 16.6 pounds. I told the tech that there was no way Corky lost that much weight. She reset the scale, and he weighed over 19, which was what he weighed on the visit to the vet before his surgery.

Corky and I are sending positive thoughts and prayers that the treatment will be the right one for Zoe.

In the meantime, try thinking of other things and do something you enjoy.

Take care my dear friend. (((((HUGS)))))

Lov ya,

Terri and Corkster

[addy]

Thank you Terri for the positive support. It is the weekend and we will try to see a movie again for a break.

They weighed Zoe on two different scales and came up with the same amout. She had been drinking longer and urinating longer but yesterday morning when she had to fast and could not eat food or chew her Kong, she only went to the water bowl once and took a few sips.:confused:

We weighed her as soon as we got home as per IMS and our scale had her at 16.8.

This morning we weighed her after breakfast at the same time we normally weigh her and she was 17.2 or 17.4, I forgot to write it down.

She thinks in Zoe's case, since she already knows Zoe's intermediates are sky high, why would I want to use Trilostane and she concurs with Dr. Oliver. She seems very, very confident with her ability to use Lysodren on Zoe.

We tested again for UTI. I am afraid to giver her the Panacur today, her poops are really, really soft from yesterday. Think I will wait a bit. I only have tried Panacur one time and she got bad diahreea from it.

Are they supposed to get diahrrea from a dewormer if they have worms or parasites?

Have to go to work now. Thank you Terri, your support means alot.:)

Love ya,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

I am so, so, so glad that diabetes has been ruled out! While weight GAIN is typical in Cushing's, we do have babies that lose instead. :rolleyes: So it could be that Zoe is just blowing raspberries at the rules. :p

Trink's weight varies since the colitis came to visit. She has lost 1-3 ozs every time she had problems but then gains it right back once she is able to keep her food in. I don't know about Zoe, but with the volume of stuff that comes out of Trink's little body, it is no wonder she loses. :eek:

I have to say that poop patrol has taken on new dimensions since our diagnosis. As of yesterday, I am photoing poop! :eek::o:p

When I have given de-wormers in the past, I have seen softer poops afterwards but the only one I remember having actual diarrhea was Crys when we first found her. But she was full of tape worms, hook worms, you name it, so I wasn't really surprised. The poor thing was so starved when she came home that the tape worms were leaving on their own! :eek:

I am hoping for the best results possible when the results come in!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

Oh Leslie, you have this wonderful ability to make me laugh no matter what:D:D:D

LOL poo pictures!!!!!!

Hubby used to call me at lunch time and describe Zoo's mid day poo and then if it was even alittle off we would set up a system of pumpkin and rice snack to try to get it back to normal. All we talked about was poo and how to fix it before it got worse.:rolleyes: We were poo obsessed!!!!!!
"It has a tail? Quick, more pumpkin!!!!" We were nuts. I still am, I guess, just can't use the rice and pumpkin anymore.:(


Zoe never lost weight before durring a flare, this is the first time. It is also the first time she has been on metronidazole for more than a month. Vets were always amazed that her came Zoe having a colitis flare and I still had her on a diet.:p

One thing I noticed after we came home yesterday was Zoe was breathing faster than normal. It lasted a qood part of the afternoon.
Was that from the drug they gave her for the UTK panel? I never have seen that with Zoe.

Hugs,
Addy

[addy]

Dear Friends,

I feel a melt down coming on tonite. It has been a hard day at work.

It has been a very long week of waiting and still I have no test results other than Zoe does not have diabetes.

Her back legs seem better since I cut her back to one dose of metronidazole per day (125mgs) She is not walking as crooked or stumbling or dragging her back legs somewhat. She is hesitant to jump on the sofa but will try.

Her poops are not very good, they are deteriorating every day. I cut back the dose the day we went to see IMS. They have gotten progressively worse each day.:mad:

I don't understand any of this any more and am starting to feel so discouraged.

I have not given the Panacur because I would have to give it on the same meal that I give her metronidazole. I searched the whole internet today and cannot find if they can be given within 30 minutes of each other. The vet tech said I could. Not sure if I trust her so if I can't find answer I have to wait for IMS to call.

I need some encouragement. How am I going to start lysodren when she is such a mess?

I'm sure you are all getting tired of our never ending prediciment. Okay, so I say let's try the tylan, lets try going off the raw diet to some other protein. How do all of those changes fit in with lysodren, even if it is just maintenance? And IMS is bound and determined to load her.

How do I do all of this at the same time? I won't know which end is up.:eek:

Almost 3 months on metronidazole and the only way she is better is to give her 125 mgs am and 65 mgs pm. It did not work.:(:(:(

All I do is waste time and end up in the exact same place I started. I am going to break down and give her her 65 mgs tonite. Poops are heading toward a watery squirty mess if I don't.

HELP,
Addy

[frijole]

Addy, I am so sorry and I can so relate to feeling like you are in a vicious circle of doubt. There were times I thought my head would explode and I couldn't think clearly... and everyone here helped so much. So you aren't losing it.... you are just normal. :D

You have been dealt a lot to deal with and I agree that lysodren would be a challenge. Its been a while since I used tylan and did all the research but if I recall it too can cause diarrhea if the dose is too high so double check that and make sure you don't overdo that. Since you haven't tried it and so many have had success with it... I wouldn't hesitate to try it. But I wouldn't do that and lysodren at the same time.

Hang in there and give dear Zoe a hug from me. Huge hugs to YOU. Kim

[marie adams]

Oh Addy, I am so sorry there aren't any good answers. I so hated waiting for test results--it made me crazy when they didn't call.
I can tell you Maddie had no side effects at all from the lysodren, but she didn't have other things going on at the same time either, so I cannot help with any advice.

I say go for the meltdown it helps; right now that is all I do is have meltdowns, but it is getting better--trying to think happy thoughts.:D:D

Just being there for her is good--you are doing the best you can and believe me Zoe knows it. Maddie knew I was doing the best I could and she continue to do the best she could for me; so it works both ways.

Take care, get the box of tissues and go for it!!

[Franklin'sMum]

Addy

I found a meltdown every now and then helps me to feel better after it. I am so glad that diabetes is off the agenda to worry about :D. You are doing the very best you can, and Zoe knows that.
Hoping that when her other results are in, it will give you and the IMS a more clear idea of which path to go down for her treatment.

Hugs,
Jane, Franklin and Angel Baiiley xxx

[foxandhound]

So glad the diabetes was ruled out. So very sorry about the leg pain. We have only had one episode of this and though it was so so drastic, it is almost gone for now. I get the feeling that it comes and goes in waves and I will be seeing that again. Hopefully Zoe will get many, many good waves soon. The limb problems are the most scary to me so I want to send many, many hugs. It's a series of ups and downs for all of us and it is painful to hear of the sadness you are experiencing, but there are still things to try. There's good days, bad days, confusing days. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. Find time to take care of you too, you know?

We were Rxed flagyl and panacur a few years ago for colitis and hookworms (our preventative failed). We went to route of slippery elm and panacur instead, then started the flagyl. Your IMS may find that you can do both. This might help the loose stool. I didnt catch what the flagyl was for, has there been a stool culture? So sorry the poops are not great. I am searching the thread for Zoe's diet.

I wish you all the best, but most of all, I wish you strength and peace. Zoe wants to jump on the couch. That's the part that tells me you are doing right by Zoe so keep on! Firm everything with the IMS. :) Hang in there. Lots of love.

BTW, mine get diarrhea from preventatives here and there, and my yonger one gets it bad with dewormers for a few days, doesnt happen to most dogs though. He is sensitive. It happens.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

Bless your heart. I wish there was a clear cut answer to all Zoe's issues. But there is only one CLEAR answer in all of this - do not let the IMS load Zoe. IMHO that would be a recipe for a sure disaster digestive-wise PLUS that is not protocol for treating intermediate hormones. So just lay your ears back, grit your teeth and tell them that is NOT going to happen - Zoe will start on a maintenance dose only at the lowest possible mg (recommended at 25-50mg/kg/week). :o:oahem...see post #413:o:o

Of course, I can be a rude old broad at times. :o:rolleyes::p

I can so sympathize with you since Trink started having issues. Everything that happens worries me, everything she eats worries me, everything she ISN'T eating worries me, giving meds worries me, not giving meds worries me. :rolleyes: And we have had no where near the problems you and Zoe have! And now we are more than likely going to have to make some major changes in both Trink and Squirt's diets and that makes me just sick. My docs started me on a new med that costs almost 1/2 of what I get each month! :eek: I don't know that I can continue to cook for them much longer. The very idea scares me to pieces for Squirt and makes my stomach knot up for Trink. :(

I haven't started the slippery elm bark for Trink yet because she is doing good at the moment and I am scared to add anything for fear of setting her off again. Plus I am still not clear on how to give it so that will wait until I understand a bit more, then I will share with you what we are doing and how it works.

Squirt is doing ok on the Lyso maintenance. The day of her dose, she doesn't feel too perky but that is not uncommon. She actually drinks more on those days, is less active and interested, and she has some nausea/indigestion. I had planned to have another UTK panel the end of this month, but after getting that prescription filled yesterday, it will have to wait til next month. :eek::(

Keep your chin up, Addy. You are doing such a great job of looking after Zoe and doing what is best for her.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

Kim, Marie, Jane, Leslie, Annie: thank you all from the bottom of my heart for coming to my rescue. I tried to have the melt down. I laid on the floor and started a heart to heart talk with Zoe which she was very interested in (the attention, not the content). It was just getting good when Koko decided to join us. He kept smelling my head and then licking my face and then he would run to Zoe and do the same thing. Well, it started to tickle so I started laughing, at which point Zoe became upset with Koko for interrupting and started a wrestling match with him and that was the end of the melt down. :rolleyes:

I spent the rest of the night brain dead because you are right Kim, my head wants to explode. Something works for a week so I get hopeful and then it stops and I am devastated.:eek:

I am very frightened now because it has never gone on this long and I cannot stop the metronidazole. I worry about neurological side effects. She acts sick on 250 mgs per day. I know I have to wait for test results but the fear is ebbing up into my throat. I’m just scared.:(

I guess it is time to bring out my tomb of IBD/colitis research and start reviewing it all again. Leslie, I hear you and I know exactly what you mean. I truly hope for Trink this is a short term problem. I can't do the pumpkin and rice like I used to, works different on Zoe with the raw food. Maybe I should just put her back on the perscription ID canned dog food.:confused: Gosh, I hate to do that.

Love you all,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Zoe's test, sky high numbers, she was severly stressed and had colitis flare up going on for over a month, her symptoms are still mild,mostly coat and tail as they were then:

UTK Adrenal Panel Thu, 5 /27/2010 11:27 AM
Results/Comments
Endocrinology Lab Case# EN 10-4088
Test: Result: Normal Range** Result Normal Range**
(post ACTH)
Cortisol ng/ml 47.7 2.1-58.8 304.4* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml 1.05* 0.05-0.57 7.69* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 114.8* 30.8-69.9 102.2* 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.99 0.3-0.49 5.91* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml 1.18* 0.08-0.77 20.33* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml *** 33.9 11-139.9 357.1 72.9-398.5

Marianne reminded me of this post and the cortisol level when this test was done. Zoe's cortisol is quite high here which is more than likely why your IMS is insisting on a loading phase for her. I understand the reasoning now and am so sorry if I caused you more angst with my last post.

If she was calmer and not having a flare up when she had the most recent UTK panel and the cortisol comes back that high, then loading may be the best option to get a handle on the Cushing's - her cortisol and intermediates. If that is the case, it may be time to just bite the bullet and try to treat the Cushing's, hoping the colitis can be controlled until her body adjusts - hopefully adjusts.

I have tried to put myself in your shoes....what if Trink's colitis was a bad as Zoe's and she were the one with Cushing's, not Squirt? Would I use any of the traditional treatments? Of them, Lyso is my preference; would I load her? or would I start with a maintenance dose and see what that did? would I then load her if that wasn't enough? What if her system simply couldn't handle anything that had the slightest hope of lowering her cortisol and/or intermediates? Could I resign myself to watching her deteriorate, helpless to do anything for her? I have a feeling I would be continuously trying things and continuously cleaning my bed! :eek: It would be a constant battle of adjusting doses between bouts - "ok, 25mg is too much, we will try 12mg next" - until I either found a level that she could tolerate and we could work up from, or the colitis defeated that attempt completely. Then I would move on to the next treatment until they ran out and I was seriously considering flying her to some foreign country for a black market magic bean. Every time she had a flare-up, guilt would eat me alive for giving her whatever the latest treatment was. Every time I saw her signs, guilt would eat me up because I wasn't doing anything or not enough. In short, I would drive myself crazy.

And you have a melt-down???? PLEASE have 15 or 20....an hour if you need! Trinket and I have only just touched the tip of the iceberg so I can barely begin to imagine what you are going through but my heart goes out to you and Zoe.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Maddie stopped eating the raw would then only eat the rice, chicken, and pumpkin. She would still sort of eat her dry I gave her, but most of the time out of my hand. It helped with the runny poop towards the end.

I know the weakness in the hind leg area is part of the cushings and it got better when I started her on the lyso--she could climb the stairs better. I think there was more going on at the end than we knew so I think her numbers and the symptoms were kind of mixed up--that is why I was so sure she needed to be loaded again when actually her numbers went back down---sooooo confusing.

Keep the box of tissues close so when the 15-20 minute sessions start you are prepared.

Keep up the laughter sessions with Koko at least Zoe wanted to partake in the fun.

[addy]

Leslie, you NEVER distress me or cause me anguish of ANY kind. I understood what was happening. You are my sunny port in the storm.:)

I know Dr. Oliver told me to add maintenance dose first because he knew I was worried about her chronic issues. That was why we even discussed Trilostane. IMS says her experience is maintenance dose will not lower cortisol enough and she is most likely right.:confused:

However, when I asked her if she ever loaded a dog with chronic diarrhea, she first said no, looked away from my stare, came back and said but I have loaded a lot of older dogs with chronic health problems.

I was worried enough about trying lysodren to begin with, that Zoe’s body won’t handle it. I never dreamed I might face the prospect of not being able to take her of metronidazole.

Can you load a dog taking an antibiotic on a daily basis? Has anyone here done that?

Love ya girlfriend,
Addy

[littleone1]

Dear Addy,

I am so sorry for the decisions you need to make. You have gotten very good advice. Since I never used Lyso, I'm not familiar with what it can do.

You and Zoe are in my thoughts and prayers that everything goes well.

(((HUGS)))

Luv ya,

Terri

[addy]

Thanks Marie and Terri,

still trying to find a dog with colitis or ibd that loaded with lysodren.

Koko has been keeping the tears at bay, he has decided to be our little "Koko de Loco" again. He is not getting enough exercise with all the bad weather. Last night I wanted to have a cry session and he decided to chew up my reading glasses:eek: Then he snuck down in the basement and I did not realize it and he was locked up in the dark for about ten minutes. Who knows what he chewed up:mad: So far he is not vomiting:rolleyes: Man, it is going to be a long winter.

I put Zoe back on her 1/4 evening pill until I hear from the IMS. She did walk better this week when she was only one one pill rather than two. In fact this morning she wanted to go for a walk. We had snow last night and salt was all over the road. I could not let her walk on it, her paws burn and freeze. She stuck her face into that ice cold wind and stood there loving it in true Lhasa style:) She is having a good day today. I love good days:D

I plan to spend the weekend rereading all my IBD and colitis literature waiting for the vet to call. I can't really make any decisions until I see test results. All I can do is wait.:mad::mad:

Impatient Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
So sorry what you are going through. Will post on my own thread.
It seems like it isn't just cushing but other health issues on top of this.
I wish I could be more positive. I have long talks with Apollo also. Telling him we are going to fight this together and that I need him to hang in there for me. The walks are less and less. When we do walk he gives me this look and I just want to cry. He falls on his front legs now also and had a fall the other day scraped the skin off part of his little nose, my fault because he walks behind me and I assume he is walking when he can't. I embrace the good times as much as I can.
Love ya
Sonja and Apollo
Always praying for you.

[addy]

Hi Sonja and Friends,

Just heard second hand, vet tech called hubby while I was at work, Texas gastro panel back and everything is normal. Still no word on CBC or urinalysis. Said UTK panel still not in.:confused: I will call and ask her to email results to me.

Not sure to be happy or not. If I had CBC results would feel better.
Tried reducing Zoe's metronidazole 50% am and she was already reduced pm. Seems to be going better than trying to stop pm dose completely but who know what will happen tomorrow.:mad:

Funny thing, I was reading at lunch something that perhaps may explain why we see this one day feeling good and the next day pup feels sick, it was tallking about the the fact that all the hormones including cortisol have cycles so with Cushings, one day the hormones could be in their high cycle, the next in the low cycle. Said that was why it is hard to get doses right and you have to test alot.

Gave me a better understanding of it. I never thought of it that way. That the pups have highs and lowsbased on hormonal cycle.

I will call vet tech tomorrow. The CBC panel has to be in, that was local. Maybe no news is good news.:confused:

Hugs,
Addy

[addy]

Okay, not sure what this means. Vet tech said "everything was normal no problems" asked her to email test results. Still no UTK results.

In June her platlet count was high 589 out of 140-540 (was having cloitis flare not controled with drugs) now it is higher 614 ( colitis flare controled with metronidazole)

In June her ALK PTase was high 325 out of 13-289 now it is normal 283

In June her cholesteral was high 503 out of 98-300 now it is normal 269

So I should be really happy about this except not sure what the platelet count going higher means.:confused:

This time her neutrophil absolute is marked high .24 (Thought I read this is elevated with Cushings)

This time her creatinine is low .03 out of .5-2. (Again Cushings?)

What is a possible worry to me even though tech said "everything is fine, all normal " is BLD 2+ marked abnormal- last time was negative Also PROT is 30 marked abnormal- last time was negative. :eek:She is on a raw diet so not sure how that affects this or is this the start of kidney problems? Why is the platlet higher? What do I ask the IMS?

Breathe in, breathe out Addy, breathe in, breathe out.

Trying not to jump to conclusions, Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

Something I found when looking for info for you:

http://www.vetinfo.com/dbloodwork.html


These are reported causes of increased platelet counts:

hypothyroidism (usually fairly mild increases)

essential thrombocythemia (reported in the Feb 99/March 99 Compendium of Continuing Education) - signs were lethargy, weight loss, depression This condition is also likely to cause an increased white blood cell count due to neutrophilia and anemia.

myeloproliferative disorders (like excessive bone marrow stimulation, cancers of the bone marrow, metastatic cancers stimulating the bone marrow)

platelet function abnormalities sometimes lead to increased platelet numbers as the body tries to compensate for the fact that the platelets don't work well (usually mild increases, though)

iron deficiency and chronic blood loss (from any source - urinary tract, gastrointestinal tract) can lead to thrombocythemia

With the great elevation in these values, essential thrombocythemia seems likely, even though G doesn't seem to have the clinical signs expected with that problem. Bone marrow analysis is helpful in differentiating among the causes of increased platelet counts.

Mike Richards, DVM 7/19/2000

I am sure Debbie could tell you more and I will keep looking.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

Have you ever had blood drawn by a really skilled nurse and then the next time you have the nurse from hell and everything puckers when the needle goes in sideways? Well that latter experience can cause a dog to release more platelets so I wouldn't be surprised if the really mild elevation you are seeing is probably Zoe getting a bit excited during the blood draw.

Some dogs with cushing's have slightly lower creatinine. This is largely due to catabolic effects of cortisol which causes muscle wasting. Cushing's can also cause elevated neutrophil but so can excitability or stress. According to what Leslie just posted, increased platelets can cause an increase in neutrophilia too.

Sorry but I'm not sure what BLD 2+ is nor what the normal reference range for protein is. Are these from the blood chemistry or urinalysis?

Glynda

[addy]

SubTest Name Normal Values Results
SP-TY CYSTO N
Color YELLOW N
Turb CLEAR N
Gluc mg/dL NEGATIVE N
Bilirubin NEGATIVE N
Keto NEGATIVE N
Sp-Gr (1.018-1.045 normal value) 1.019 N
Bld 2+ A
pH (5.2-6.8 normal value) 6.0 N
Prot (mg/dL) 30 A
Uro NORM N
Vol mL <5 N

from urinalysis, Glynda and yes she does get stressed.

but instead of being happy which I should be I don't understand, HOW CAN EVERYTHING BE NORMAL?:rolleyes::confused::eek:

I'm freaking out,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

I know what you mean when things come back normal, but you know something just isn't right, but what.....

Hang in there, there has to be some answers in the test results you don't have yet....

Go ahead and start the breathing exercises--in out in out and grab the tissues:D:D

((((hugs)))):)

[addy]

Oh Marie, you are exactly right. At first I thought the labs were mixed up. I expected to see worsening liver values, I expected things to be worse since last May. I can't get her off the metronidazole and even the gastro panel is normal. I almost wished it showed SIBO so I would know what to do.:confused: I was so shocked yesterday I thought I was going crazy, my mind would not stop racing.:eek:

Does anyone know what the two abnormals are on her urine test? I thought BLD meant blood in urine 2+. Is that from the needle to get the urine? IMS's office was not concerned about it.

Also PROT 30 mg/dl is that protein? is that from her raw diet?

Unless that bacteria she has is from her raw food and the leg weakness I was seeing was from the metronidazole. Maybe the weight loss was from the metronidazole too?

I sure wish the UTK would come in. It has been 2 weeks.

Still confused,
Addy

[StarDeb55]

Addy, the 2+ blood is in the urine. Don't panic. The strips that are dipped into the urine to check for various things such as glucose, blood protein, & a few other things will detect both intact RBC & free hemoglobin. If the RBCs have be lysed (destroyed), they will release free hemoglobin into the urine. Urine is normally pretty acidic which will cause RBC destruction so this isn't all that unusual. Yes, this result very well could be a by-product of the collection by cysto. It's similar to when a human is catheterized to collect a urine, there is always some trauma involved simply from the procedure, so it's not unusual to find a few RBCs. Now, if I remember the report, there were no RBCs seen which leads me to believe that this is free hemoglobin. Guess what, a major component in the structure of hemoglobin are several kinds of protein, so if you have RBCs or free hemoglobin, you will also have protein in the urine. Now, how much is significant, you will have to discuss with your vet.

Debbie

[addy]

Thank you Deb :):):)You explained that so I can easily understand:)

I will ask IMS if she ever calls with UTK results:confused: They said everything was "good" so it did not seem like they were concerned about it.

I guess I was so expecting bad things so I jumped on anything marked abnormal or high or low:rolleyes: But your explanation and Glynda's make sense.

Deb, does it seem strange to you that her symptoms would get worse but her blood work, etc would be so normal? Dr. Allen from Dechra told me to expect whatever symptoms she has to worsen and then she will develop new ones. So now even her cholesteral is normal? Normal, never thought the word would freak me out so much. I should be used to it, it is what I have heard for 3 years except for the Cushings. That was "significant". I got hung up on that word too:eek:

She has been on melatonin and lignans since August. Could it be that helped her intermediates? She has been on metronidazole for 3 months!!!!

Thanks Deb, for shedding some light on it. I have to go see what happened with Winnie.

Hugs,
Addy

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

I had this whole little reply done and then it disappeared--darn!!!! :eek::eek: Oh well, it must be normal for this last test to take this long so hang in there--get some Koko time and laugh a little!!!:):)

[apollo6]

Dear
Addy
I would ask for a copy of the results look at the notations. Then in my case I asked the vet what the results meant for the different readings. Always get the copies so you can compare from previous labs.
On the blood 2+ , Apollo had the same -more than likely due to needle used to get urine.
Apollo had same reading on Specific Gravity -Zoe is still in normal range.
The reading on the Protein is what I would ask the vet about(Apollo's was neg) I did read can go high if stressed.
Apollo stopped losing weight when he was on medication, but the leg weakness is still going on , now in front also.
HUgs Sonja and Apollo
will post on my thread tomorrow.

[addy]

Thank you Sonja, that info helps.:)

I guess it will just be another long weekend. Hopefully her adrenal panel will come in next week. Can't believe it takes this long.:(

She is walking better since I lowered the metronidazole. Maybe it was side effect. She had never been on it that long. I was going to give her the Panacur tomorrow but we are to have the coldest weather that we have seen in 2 years. If you gets diarrhea, I don't want her running outside all day in 25 below:eek: Guess we wait again.

Hugs,
Addy

Kind of thinking maybe we won't be doing the Panacur. Won't be the first time:rolleyes:

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

I hope you are keeping warm. :D:D That is a good thing Miss Zoe is walking better.

Please enjoy the weekend snuggled up all together inside by the warm fire....

Take care of yourself--my husband said beer cures all.....:) I prefer white wine or a tall sweet exotic drink--mojitos are goooood if made right!!!:D:D

[addy]

Hey Marie,

Thanks for checking on us. It has been freezing but funny thing, I am not as cold as I anticipated so that is a good thing!!!

Hubby says it is not my imagination, that he thinks Zoe is walking better, she was like a drunken sailor some times and lots of trembling, back legs giving out. It can't be that her increased melatonin and new lignans kicked in, but maybe. I think it was side effects from metronidazole. I did not feel good about keeping her on that. My gut said no but figured maybe I should listen to the IMS.:confused: Then IMS said don't change anything while we wait for test results but now I did not listen and cut her back to 125 mgs. Glad I did because I see she is walking better. I guess sometimes we need to disobey and follow are own instincts!!!!

Now if I can only get her off this dose to nothing I would be happy.

How are you doing? Hoping the zinnia garden is starting to take root:D

I like beer when it is really hot. Otherwise fruity and ice cream drinks are fabulous. Though a good margarita can do the trick:D

I had a furlough day Friday so I burned off a lot of stress cleaning and reorganizing closets, playing with my puppies and being a stay at home Mom. I love that;)

Happy Saturday!!!

Love ya,
Addy

[apollo6]

Glad to hear Zoe is walking better. Wish I could say the same for Apollo. Will post on my thread.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo.

[addy]

Could someone help me try to figure this out? I feel like I am losing it. Our saga started end of October with the colitis flare up. I could not control it as I used to. Thought perhaps it was her lignan's fillers complicating her problem. Cut back on her lignans and she was better, not well, but better. Continued the metronidazole at 125mg bid per IMS instructions on the day before Thanksgiving.

Beginning of December she started losing weight even though I had increased her food. She was drinking longer and peeing longer and I was seeing increased back leg weakness. She would stumble, walk crooked, sometimes back legs would start to give out. Her colitis was controlled on the 250 total mgs.

December 20 started new lignans with no filler. Cut back metronidazole to 125mg am and 62.5 mgs pm. Maintained stool quality after a week.

January 1 started 1mg more melatonin at night.

January 6th went to IMS, stools controlled with 125mgs metronidazole am 62.5 mgs pm.

Blood work, Texas gastro panel came in normal. Her Cholesterol is even normal now as well as her ALK. No diabetes. Urine okay.

Cut back metronidazole to 62.% mgs BID, has been a week and stools maintained very nicely, no problems cutting back.

Leg weakness has improved. Weighed her this morning and she has now gained 4 ounces.

I feel like I live in the Twilight zone.:eek: What does any of this mean? Is it all just a fluke?

Still waiting for adrenal panel.:rolleyes:

Need input Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
All I can say is just be greatful for the improvement. Sometimes there is no clear answer. Little miracles happen and there is no reasonable answer. Apollo climbed a flight of stairs a few days ago, can't tell you why but he did.
Our babies can suprise us with their well to live.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[frijole]

Sonja - I find it bizarre that Apollo has lost strength in both front and rear legs but yet can still make it up onto your sofa and climb steps?!!!! Annie's issues aren't nearly as bad but she hasn't even attempted the sofa in 10 months. Its like Apollo's issues are intermittent? Sorry.. just noticed I posted this on Zoe's thread. OOPS.... Kim

[addy]

Zoe's is intermittent. Not sure of Apollo's. Zoe always walks with a stiff gate in the back legs. Here and there she will attempt to jump on the sofa but as with the bed, it is getting less and less. She won't even attempt the bed anymore or the car.

Her back legs tremble off and on but that has not happened now for over a week.

The stumbling is much improved. That was bad for awhile. You can see the muscle loss in her back legs and thighs when you look at old pictures and look at her now.:(

We used to tease her and call her the mutt with the butt but now her butt is tiny:(


Hugs, Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Same with Apollo. The massage therapist for his legs said he used to have a cute muscular behind not any more.
Will post on my thread what results of ultrasound and what IMO said.
Let's just say I was sobbing in the parking lot. I need to regroup , I don't think Apollo has inflammatory bowel disease. He doesn't have any symptoms.
I am glad Zoe is doing better.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[marie adams]

Hi There,

Who would have ever thought we would appreciate a big butt...:D at least on the cute little ones. I remember we use to call Maddie Fluffy Butt. I wish there was a way to put muscle back there for them to make it easier for them to get around.

Take care!!! I hope the test results are on their way for you today!!!!

[addy]

I called yesterday before I left work and the results were not there :(
They were having a tech call UTK to check today.

I noticed a new bald spot on the back of one of Zoe's hind legs last night:( The rest of her thin coat is shiny and soft.

She seems happy and this morning she wanted to take a walk since it was warmer outside but she had a mushy tail on her poo this morning. I am hoping it was from eating crumbs off the floor Sunday when the kids were over. I thought I would cut back a tad on her food today and see if that helps. Sometimes it does.:confused:

I feel like I have been waiting for these test results forever. I'm numb.

Thanks for checking,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

This is reminding me of the time Squirt's vet "lost" her sample to UTK....it was found weeks later in their freezer! :p Of course, the sample was no good by then and we had to redo it, but at no cost to me. It was actually funny....the clinic, me, the vet had all been calling UTK and FedEx raising hell, and there it was all the time right where they had put it! LOL So, ask them to double check their freezer just in case! ;)

I hope you hear back soon! I know how frustrating the wait can be.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[addy]

Boy, it better not be in their freezer:eek:

But thanks for alerting me to ask:D I sure don't want Zoe to redo the test now. Last time she was breathing really fast after we got home for part of the afternoon. She did not do that the first time. I was a bit concerned about it but then it finally stopped.:confused:

Gosh, I sure hate all these tests. If we have to redo it we will but I will complain alot.:mad::mad::mad:

But Leslie, I was so excited to hear of Squirt playing with toys:):):)

Watch out, you might not be able to keep up with her:D

Hugs,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

But Leslie, I was so excited to hear of Squirt playing with toys...

Oh, Addy! That was just so, so, so wonderful to see! I was amazed, proud, tickled pink, dumbfounded, giddy....just blown away! :D:D And, a tad bit guilty that I had waited as long as I did to start the Lyso. :rolleyes: I should have started it right after her last UTK panel. But nooooo....I had to fret and worry and research first. The flip side of this is - Squirt didn't start showing signs until a bit after that last panel and her signs were what made me start the Lyso. :rolleyes: I wear guilt so well, tho! ;)

I hope, hope, hope Squirt's story will help others feel better about using Lyso as a maintenance dose with Atypical babies. There is so much fear over Lyso. :( I just wish her story could relate to Zoe and help you, too.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
will be praying for you. Make sure you get a copy of the report with explanations , look over and ask the vet to interpret, also get a copy of vets notes if possible. I always ask all sorts of questions.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Marianne, Sue, Lori, Glynda, Leslie, Kim and ALL OF YOU, your frank, brutally honest opinion: IMS is a bit stumped and has not yet given me HER plan but left it up to me. UTK advises we can do just about anything except Trilostane. IMS concurs and I have to agree.

May test and January test results listed below-background first:

Zoe now has normal CBC, urine test, gastro panel, her cholesteral and ALK are now normal, in May they were elevated. IMS is stumped on that not sure why that would happen. Her hypothosis is that Zoe has "stress colitis" and the stress is coming from her body's high cortisol. She believes her poos will improve when we reduce cortisol.

Zoe is walking better now and has gained 4 ounces. She still does not want to jump on the couch now. She is having one extra potty break at 10:00am but we think it is because her chewing and licking has gotten worse, she chews and chews her Kong and then goes and drinks water in the morning. Whenever she chews, licks or eats, she goes for a drink afterward so she is drinking more water but not abnormal amounts. Her coat is soft and shiny but remains thin, still has rat tail. No panting unless she has stomach pain. Holds urine for the whole night, no house accidents

MAY 2010 adrenal panel


Cortisol ng/ml 47.7 2.1-58.8 304.4* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml 1.05* 0.05-0.57 7.69* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 114.8* 30.8-69.9 102.2* 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.99 0.3-0.49 5.91* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml 1.18* 0.08-0.77 20.33* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml *** 33.9 11-139.9 357.1 72.9-398.5



JANUARY 2011 Adrenal Panel -Melatonin and lignans at full dose for 3 months

Cortisol ng/ml 41.6 2.1-58.8 440* 65.0-174.6
Androstenedione ng/ml .33 0.05-0.57 4.29* 0.27-3.97
Estradiol pg/ml 54.5 30.8-69.9 52.2 27.9-69.2
Progesterone ng/ml 0.46 0.3-0.49 4.79* 0.10-1.50
17 OH Progesterone ng/ml .72 0.08-0.77 9.9* 0.40-1.62
Aldosterone pg/ml 33.2 11-139.9 213.6 72.9-398.5


The intermediates have come way down and I can't help but wonder had we been on melatonin and lignans for a longer time, would they not have decreased more. Cortisol went higher.

Choices:

maintenance dose of lysodren

load with lysodren

keep on melatonin and lignans if I feel Zoe is doing well.

Thanks,
Addy

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

Let me start by saying that I'm glad Zoe has you because if she were mine, I'd probably be back in the closet, curled up in a ball, drooling like a worked up St. Bernard. :p I just told a member that I don't do that anymore. :)

In my opinion, a maintenance dose of Lysodren is not going to be effective in lowering cortisol in a dog with a post stim of 44 ug/dl. I personally wouldn't flush $5 a pill down the toilet. I'm probably the odd woman out here but if my dog had chronic colitis and had a post stim cortisol of 44 ug/dl with no overt symptoms, no concerning blood abnormalities and I was being pushed to start treatment to reduce cortisol in the hopes it would cure chronic diarrhea, we'd be starting with a low dose of Vetoryl.

I think I've mentioned before that based on my own experience with Lulu and everything I've read and listened too, I no longer agree with the "don't use Trilostane" if intermediates are elevated" theory. You can pretty much assume that every dog with elevated cortisol has some degree of elevation in intermediates. This fact was confirmed by Dr. David Bruyette, a huge fan of Vetoryl, who very rarely prescribes Lysodren. So if intermediates are always elevated with typical cushing's, then according to UTK, Vetoryl should never be prescribed, or at least not for the reason it was approved by the FDA. :confused: Maybe I should ask Dr. Oliver to explain that to me.

Glynda

[Squirt's Mom]

:p PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE!!! :p


This fact was confirmed by Dr. David Bruyette, a huge fan of Vetoryl, who very rarely prescribes Lysodren.

Dr. Bruyette's "theory" would carry MUCH more weight if he were a huge fan of Lyso and rarely prescribed Trilo...IMHO. ;) And I would LOVE to hear Dr. O's response. :)

************************************************** ********************

Ok, Addy,

One point I do now agree with Glynda on, is that a maintenance dose will more than likely not work on Zoe's cortisol - she would need a loading phase.

Zoe doesn't have many signs at all and that would be a concern, for me, in loading since you wouldn't have much to gauge her reaction on. Soft poops or diarrhea would not be much of a clue either. :rolleyes: Is there a sign you see that would tell you if she were loaded?

If Zoe's diarrhea worsened on the loading, what would you do? Do you continue with the load in the hopes she will adjust and the maintenance dose wouldn't bother her, or do you stop the Lyso period? Would you then try the Trilo, hoping that, for Zoe, Dr. B is right and Dr. O is wrong? If she cannot handle the Trilo, that leaves Keto or Anipryl. If those are too hard on her, you are back to where you are today - the UTK treatment only.

I believe the intermediates have gone down due to that treatment - lignans and melatonin working as they are supposed to. :D

As for the cortisol rising - I haven't looked back, but has Zoe had an ultrasound where her adrenals were visible? Has she been diagnosed as PDH or is there a possibility of an adrenal tumor? The reason I am wondering about this is - what if some of her elevated cortisol is a result of the physiological stress her body in under due to the colitis? From Squirt's history, I know this is possible - but she had a tumor causing her elevations when she was first diagnosed. Could prolonged colitis cause the same reaction? I don't know.

As for the cortisol causing her colitis - I don't know about that either. In some research online this morning on cortisol and colitis, what I found was that corticosteriods are used to treat colitis, but in reference to ulcerative colitis, not stress colitis. I have yet to find anything relating to Lyso and colitis.

It might be worthwhile to talk to the manufacturer of Lyso - Bristol-Meyers Squibb if you haven't already. Here is their info:

Bristol-Myers Squibb contact info:

The Americas
800-321-1335 (toll free US only)
609-897-6669

Drug.Information@bms.com

I simply cannot believe that Zoe is the first cush pup to also have colitis...that is just statistically improbable! Those two populations have to have intersected at some point. :confused::confused::confused:

Don't you really wish one of us would just say, "Addy, do THIS!" :p I think I know what I would do....but I haven't lived with Zoe and that could very well change my mind. But I come back to what is known - Lysodren will lower all the intermediates, with the possible exception of estradiol - it does not cause any of them to elevate. ;) I think everyone agrees on this.

Another point I agree with my dear friend on is that I am glad Zoe is yours. Evil, ain't we?!! :p Honestly, I don't know how you deal with all of this - I would be completely bald, my face constantly swelled up from bawling all the time, and my eyeballs spiraling! So you tell sweet Zoe that she is so, so lucky to be with you and not one of the OTHER crazy ladies here. :p

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[lulusmom]

:p PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE!!! :p



Dr. Bruyette's "theory" would carry MUCH more weight if he were a huge fan of Lyso and rarely prescribed Trilo...IMHO. ;) And I would LOVE to hear Dr. O's response. :)

************************************************** ********************



I don't believe Dr. Bruyette's opinion that intermediates are always elevated with pdh, or adh for that matter, is theory. I believe there's scientific evidence of this and now I'm going to have to find the evidence. :D Dr. Bruyette's practice runs 450,000 diagnostics for cushing's each year and I would safely assume that very few IMS' in the So Cal area have near the number of cushing's patients than VCA West Los Angeles. With that said, I would think that a vet who chooses to treat 100's of patients with Trilostane would most certainly have had several cases of dogs with relapses due to Trilostane's effect on the intermediates. Why is it that we're not hearing about this from anybody but UTK? I have been unable to find one reknown specialist in endocrinology that has mentioned anything about this in lectures, reference papers, etc. The list includes Dr. Feldman, Peterson, Nelson, Cook, Behren, Bruyette and a few others.
Now that I know that Dr. Peterson responds to emails, I think I'm going to ask him the very direct question and see what he has to say about it.

Dr. Edward Feldman pretty much sets treatment protocol at UC Davis and despite his bias toward Lysodren, UC Davis' choice of treatment for adrenal tumors is Trilostane. As a rule, a functional adrenal tumor can and usually does secrete excess sex hormones so why is it that UC Davis thinks Trilostane is a better choice for ADH, despite warnings from UTK? Just playing devil's advocate from the other side.

[labblab]

Glynda may be surprised to know that she's got some back-up here, but I'm agreeing with her. Since Zoe's cortisol has increased from 30 to 44 since May, I do not think a maintenance dose of Lysodren is going to serve any useful purpose. So if it were my choice to make for my own dog, I'd be looking at either Vetoryl or Lysodren loading. And with a lack of overt symptoms with which to monitor the Lysodren loading process, I'd probably feel more comfortable giving the Vetoryl an initial try. I know this recommendation puts you in a bind, since neither Dr. Oliver nor your IMS wants to consider Vetoryl. If Vetoryl is truly "out," I guess I'd opt for the Lysodren load.

Just to remind you, my Cushpup was one who did have chronic issues with diarrhea. Even though we didn't do biopsies or specific diagnostic testing related to colitis, my IMS said that he had seen other Cushing's dogs for whom colitis appeared to be associated with longterm uncontrolled cortisol levels. I know this sounds paradoxical since, as Leslie says, steroids are often used to treat such conditions. But there may be a big difference between transitory steroid treatment vs. unremitting high levels of steroid exposure. I wish I could give you more specifics as to what my IMS said. But all I recall is him telling me that he was hopeful that the diarrhea would resolve once treatment was underway (we treated with trilostane). Unfortunately, it did not improve significantly. But neither did it worsen, either. So for my pup, the colitis did not end up being a treatment contraindication.

Marianne

[addy]

I'm probably the odd woman out here but if my dog had chronic colitis and had a post stim cortisol of 44 ug/dl with no overt symptoms, no concerning blood abnormalities and I was being pushed to start treatment to reduce cortisol in the hopes it would cure chronic diarrhea, we'd be starting with a low dose of Vetoryl.

Thank you Glynda. IMS is not pushing me to start treatment, she even said maybe we should not rock the boat and keep things the way they are. If I kept things the way they are I could switch Zoe to tylan and see how that goes. And I am getting gray hair I never had before so I might be in that closet drooling sometime soon:eek: I am worried about the rise in her cortisol which is why I am afraid to leaves things the way they are. What if it goes even higher? Is that possible? I am freaking about that:eek::eek::eek:

I understand your point about vetoryl, I even emailed Dr. Allen Zoe's May adrenal panel. My gut is telling me no right now.


If Zoe's diarrhea worsened on the loading, what would you do? Do you continue with the load in the hopes she will adjust and the maintenance dose wouldn't bother her, or do you stop the Lyso period? Would you then try the Trilo, hoping that, for Zoe, Dr. B is right and Dr. O is wrong? If she cannot handle the Trilo, that leaves Keto or Anipryl. If those are too hard on her, you are back to where you are today - the UTK treatment only.

Good point Leslie, and I should really ask the IMS this question.



As for the cortisol rising - I haven't looked back, but has Zoe had an ultrasound where her adrenals were visible? Has she been diagnosed as PDH or is there a possibility of an adrenal tumor? The reason I am wondering about this is - what if some of her elevated cortisol is a result of the physiological stress her body in under due to the colitis? From Squirt's history, I know this is possible - but she had a tumor causing her elevations when she was first diagnosed. Could prolonged colitis cause the same reaction? I don't know.

Leslie, ultra sound showed bilateral enlargement of adrenal glands, one slightly larger than the other-IMS thinks pituitary not adrenal tumor.

I have asked Dr. Oliver and the IMS at least three times could another illness be causing these rising hormones and BOTH said each time not at such significant levels, so there answer is no.

Is it possible for the cortisol to come down even to 20 on a maintenance dose? I mean her intermediates came down without much work. Her symptoms are not horrible, maybe 20 would be okay for her right now. She is like me, she over responds to medication, a normal dose is sometimes too high for her.

Need to know: can her cortisol go even higher? what will that do to her? can maintenance dose lower the cortisol at all?

When she was so sick in November and December it was hard to watch and think that it was possibly rising cortisol doing it to her. I can't watch that.:eek::eek:

I don't want you to tell me what to do, just want feedback. The IMS won't even tell me what to do:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I know I have to decide on my own. But I went from having a dog that was in good shape nine months ago to a dog that can't even jump on the sofa anymore and chews and licks all day long and then goes and drinks water:mad::mad::mad: She also is looking for food more, forgot to tell you that.



How doe we watch them get worse and do nothing? Do you think I am jumping the gun? Dr. Allen said her symptoms will get worse and she will develop new ones. I don't know if I can wait for that:eek::eek:

Addy

[addy]

Oops, posted and missed Marianne's comments. Thank you Marianne.

I don't think the IMS will use Trilostane. She is pretty set against it so I would have to go elsewhere and the only other possibility is to have a vet with not much experience work with Dr. Allen for Zoe's trilostane and stims.

I did not forget about your pup but I thought the issues were not as frequent as Zoe's. I even tried to search for your thread but must be in the old site. That was one of my choices, wait on treating cortisol and keep things the way they are and switch to Tylan. I remember it helped you alot even with the drinking and peeing.

Hugs,
Addy

[labblab]

Addy, you're right, I don't have a thread here about my Barkis because we lost him back in 2004. But our decision to treat him for his Cushing's was much more clear-cut and easier than your decision with Zoe. He was a poster child for the disease, and had every classic symptom: excessive hunger, thirst and urination; elevated liver enzymes, hair loss on his haunches and abdomen, panting, seeking out cool places to lay down, hind leg weakness such that he could no longer jump on the couch or even easily negotiate the stairs. He also had frequent episodes of diarrhea with bloody mucous, but I don't believe they were as constant as Zoe's.

He had bilaterally enlarged adrenals on ultransound, and his ACTH was also at least 40+. So for us, it was a no-brainer to treat. And the trilostane did help to relieve many of his Cushing's symptoms, even though the diarrhea was not solved. We ended up losing him due to the development of neurological symptoms consistent with an enlarging macrotumor. But the trilostane did give him several months of quality life prior to the neurological decline.

Marianne

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
I am so sorry to read what you are going through. I don't understand why the IMO is not giving you some options. What is his/her reasoning about the Trilostane? Is it the hormones? I am going through the same with Apollo. Does he have SIBO? Do I start the Trilostane again? You mentioned some positive changes in Zoe,and from what I understand , you have not started any medication as of yet. And do you know what form of cushing Zoe has? Like was mentioned , can't remember was an ultrasound done? So many tests we have all had done on our fur balls can't keep tract.
Maybe the hind leg weakness is the muscle wasting? And maybe medication will help?
I will not get into the discussion as to what medication is best. Did Dr. Allen respond to you ? You are getting to much information overload.
I was told Apollo had pancreatitis scarring, didn't even know. He has had bouts of throwing up through out his life and was put on medications that probably did more harm then good.
Zoe is on medication for her colitis? So maybe the question is do you resolve this first and then go on medication or do you see if the medications can be taken with the cushing medication.
I am no a authority, but for me the low dosage of Trilostane made major improvements in Apollo's readings, the drinking, his skin and coat. The only reason I stopped was thought it related to his hind leg weakness. But Corky is going on a three time daily dosage. And now Dena has Simon on LYsodren was on Trilostane. So each case is different.
Being very analytical in nature, myself, first we know Zoe is overproducing cortisol? Then what is causing the overproduction? is it a pituitary or adrenal or medication based?
After Apollo started the TRilostane his readings improved, his drinking improved. But you and I still don't have an answer about the hind leg weakness.
You need to take some time for yourself and only when you feel more confident make a decision. For me , the more input I get the more anxious I get and can not make a decision.

If Zoe is doing better why do anything for now?
Also just a link on Trilostane
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2010&PID=56127&Print=1&O=Generic

Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Thanks Sonja:)

I need information because you all bring up good points and questions I did not ask. I need to sort through it all.

In fact just thought of one more thing:

Why would Dr. Oliver list as one of the treatment options "maintenance dose without loading" for Zoe.

Sheet states consider options one through six depending on symptoms.

Well, her symptoms are not full blown and overt. If a maintenance dose will not bring down such high cortisol, why is it one of my options? Wouldn't Dr. Oliver not list it? Wouldn't he know it won't do anything?

Is it then wrong to reason that perhaps based on her symptoms, it is a viable course of treatment? If her symptoms were full blown and her cortisol was over 40, I would not question this option but he is saying it is an option even though her cortisol is over 40.

WHY:confused::confused::confused::confused::confus ed:

Am I driving you crazy yet?

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

NO
Wish you would be getting a straight answer. But cushing in the drawer for the weekend and open it when you are ready.
Sonja and Apollo

[labblab]

Why would Dr. Oliver list as one of the treatment options "maintenance dose without loading" for Zoe.

Sheet states consider options one through six depending on symptoms.

Well, her symptoms are not full blown and overt. If a maintenance dose will not bring down such high cortisol, why is it one of my options? Wouldn't Dr. Oliver not list it?
Addy
Addy, I really wonder about this myself -- why maintenance Lysodren is recommended for a cortisol level that is so highly elevated. Maybe you can ask him this question directly.

Marianne

[Harley PoMMom]

Why would Dr. Oliver list as one of the treatment options "maintenance dose without loading" for Zoe.

Hugs,
Addy

I don't know if Dr. Oliver receives feedback from any vets regarding whether this course of treatment works or does not. I know for Harley it did not. When his vet and I started the maintenance dosing protocol, Harley's cortisol post level was 26.2 ug/dl.

Harley's post cortisol levels kept rising even though we adjusted up his maintenance dose of Lysodren. Harley's last post cortisol level was 49 ug/dl and this was on 125 mg Lysodren being given 4X a week. The span of Harley's maintenance dosing was from January - April.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

Harley's post cortisol levels kept rising even though we adjusted up his maintenance dose of Lysodren. Harley's last post cortisol level was 49 ug/dl and this was on 125 mg Lysodren being given 4X a week. The span of Harley's maintenance dosing was from January - April.

Lori, thank you. How high can their cortisol go?

Oh Lori,
I expected Zoe's CBC panel to be worse not better. I did not expect her intermediates to come down as far as they did. She was not on the correct dose of melatonin and lignans for that long, she has been so sick. I did not expect her cortisol to bump as high as it did. I had hoped perhaps it would have come down a tad.

The last two mornings she has done her "stretch" you know how they stretch out their back and legs? I have not seen her do that since summer yet she will not jump on the couch at all now. In some ways she seems better, some ways worse. Compared to one year ago, she is worse.

I will email Dr. Oliver Monday for some insight. I am compiling a list of questions for IMS. She is in a quandry I think too.

Hugs,Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

In your list of questions, ask Dr. O if it is at all possible if elevations in the hormones we associate with Atypical can be caused by chronic stress from non-adrenal illnesses.

I would also want to know if Zoe's chronic colitis could cause the cortisol to continue rise yet she not have PDH/ADH.

In short, could her chronic condition be at the root of all these abnormalities on her cush tests?

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[apollo6]

Sounds like you have a good plan of action.
It will all come together slowly.
Wish I could give you more insight.
Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Thank all of you for being so kind to give me your thoughts and opinions. I am so very grateful to all and I hope you always keep the discussion going.;) I love a good debate and we all learn so very much.

I have composed an email to Dr. Oliver and hope to get feed back from him to help clear up questions on some of the treatment options he has listed for me. Then I will tackle the IMS. Shouldn't she be offering up something? Why is it my decision? She's the one that went to medical school (I hope):p

Then I am going to go and enjoy my Zoe and Koko whom both had a visit to the groomers yesterday and look so very pretty. I swear Zoe's coat looks a little thicker on her spine but it might be the poof from the blow dryer.

We are to have a bad snow storm tomorrow. Hoping I can't go to work, wow, maybe the roads will be impassible.;) I could use a snow day:)

I love all of you, your knowledge amazes me, I am so proud that you are all so smart;););) I brag about all of you. I'm a big fan.

Love you,
Grateful Addy

[addy]

Lol, I just typed out this long post thanking all of you for your input and telling you how much you all mean to me and I lost it!!!!!!!:eek:

Okay, I don't think I can retype it all especially cause hubby spoiled the moment by telling me the IMS had the test results Wednesday and was probably studying them and drinking martinis trying to get up enough nerve to call me and Friday at 4:00 she was still afraid to call:eek::eek:

LOL, come on, just because I have some questions? Am I really that bad?:p:p (He said yes, but it is understandable:rolleyes:)

Anyway, what I had said first time around is I love a healthy debate because I learn so much and don't ever stop debating!!! I can't thank you all enough for sharing your opinions and thoughts.

I admire and respect ALL OF YOU and I am always so proud of this forum.:):)

So keep it coming, the girl loves it:)

Love you,
Addy

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
You are not losing it . You posted on someone else's thread. I will copy for you and tell where you did it. Don't feel bad I throw my W-2 in the garbage this morning.:eek: We are just stressed to the hilt.
Sonja and Apollo

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
You posted on Rene-Endocrinologist San Diego I think?
Pasted this hope I was not out of line in doing so.


Thank all of you for being so kind to give me your thoughts and opinions. I am so very grateful to all and I hope you always keep the discussion going. I love a good debate and we all learn so very much.

I have composed an email to Dr. Oliver and hope to get feed back from him to help clear up questions on some of the treatment options he has listed for me. Then I will tackle the IMS. Shouldn't she be offering up something? Why is it my decision? She's the one that went to medical school (I hope)

Then I am going to go and enjoy my Zoe and Koko whom both had a visit to the groomers yesterday and look so very pretty. I swear Zoe's coat looks a little thicker on her spine but it might be the poof from the blow dryer.

We are to have a bad snow storm tomorrow. Hoping I can't go to work, wow, maybe the roads will be impassible. I could use a snow day

I love all of you, your knowledge amazes me, I am so proud that you are all so smart I brag about all of you. I'm a big fan.

Love you,
Grateful Addy
P.s. I always wished it would so much when I was growing up in Toronto, Ontario , Canada never happened.

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy!
We are from Toronto & now live near Palm Springs. Snow in Milwaukee, how romantic (lol)!! Maybe you want to come here where we are freezing our b..tts off in the 60's............
Carrol

[addy]

Hi Carol,

20" inches and unbelievable drifts, I have not seen a storm like this in, I honestly can't remember. The wind howled like a freight train all night:eek: We don't know where to put the snow.

Glad to hear the Embark is working for you and your pups are doing well. I really want to switch Zoe to the Zeal. Did your babies like the Zeal?

I would love to be singing "California here I come":D:D:D
My parents lived in San Francisco for 10 years. I loved going to visit. Did you know Apollo's Sonja is originally from Canada? Toronto, I think.

Well, guess I have to go try to shovel some more before the temperature plummits and everything freezes. Zoe and Koko were real troopers last night and went out for bed time potty break with the wind and snow blowing like crazy in their face. I was going to carry them but they walked.:)

Hugs,
Addy

[apollo6]

Hope you are doing well. Don't envy the snow.
Did you get you get a reply yet?
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy!
The dogs are doing really well on the Embark and they LOVE the Zeal even though I think it stinks to high heavens!!! They have absolutely no problems with switching "flavors".
I remember well the freezing cold and shovelling snow.:eek: Be careful attacking that snow, don't overdo it.
Have you heard from Dr O yet?
Love and WARM hugs,
Carrol

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Boy, I wish I could give you an informed idea of what to do, but since Maddie was also a poster child for Cushings with most of the classic symptoms the loading would be harder for you to judge. I know the later loadings were harder to judge, but still there were just the slightest changes that we could tell. I can tell you this if Maddie had that high of a number I would do the load and try it for maybe half of the 7-10 day load and then test. I know it will cost for the test, but better safe than sorry as the saying goes. Of course with a number of 40 that IMO would take longer than a number of 26 to bring down, but then I would only be going into my 2nd year of treating if Maddie were still here--so I do not have a lot of experience.

I am soooo sorry there is no clear cut decision--let me hold your hand (darn there isn't a hand to show to hold :D). I wish I could figure out a way to make it clear cut or get the answers for you.

Guess I better think about work.....:eek::eek:

Hang in there you are doing a GREAT JOB!!!!!!!

[addy]

Thanks Marie and I can feel you holding my hand:)

The metronidazole and colitis cloud the picture for me. Her IMS said if we did a load, she would perhaps do a 3-5 day load at a lower dose. If we did maintenance she would do a higher dose.

I worry that if she is on metronidazole long term how would I know if it was the lysodren causing side effects or the metronidazole? Her IMS keeps reassuring me that at the lower doses of metronidazole are safe but I feel I already saw side effects. :confused: I could be wrong.

If it was a perfect world and I thought I had time, I would switch Zoe to Tylan, change her food and reassess those things and then start lysodren maintenance. IMS has said no so far to that. I will hopefully get to ask her my questions next week.:) The blizzard set things back a bit.

Dr. Oliver responded that he felt a maintenance dose was certainly an option for Zoe and that I could try it for 3 months and if it did not work, then load her. WHen I asled her IMS had she ever loaded a dog with colitis and on metronidazole, she said no.:eek::eek::eek:

Thanks for listening, Marie, you are so sweet to listen.

Hugs,
Addy

Forgot to thank Carol and Sonja for checking in!!!!!! Will post to you both after work

[marie adams]

Hi Addy,

Is Dr. Oliver the only one who knows this stuff?? There has to be someone somewhere that had this going on with their little one...:confused::confused:

Oh how I wish I had the correct decision to give you. I don't think a maintenance dose will work, but then I didn't think upping Maddie's maintenance dose the last time would have made a difference, but it did bring down her numbers from in the 8's to the 4's and that was for about 3 weeks; so....what could it hurt to try other than money for the pills....I was thinking out loud---haha!!! So not a good decision or maybe...:o

I hope you have dug out from the storm. If it makes you feel better it was 37 yesterday morning so it does get cold at the beach--haha!!!

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy!
It's still freezin' cold here in the desert but you should see all the tourists/snowbirds wearing shorts:eek: They are bound & determined that they will have a vacation come hell or high water and they're walking around like icicles doing it!
I wish I had answers for you my dear friend, but, since we are still at the melatonin/lignan stage, this is way out of my league. But I will keep following your thread as Zoe is very dear to us and we want to know how she is doing.
Love,
Carrol

[addy]

Thanks Guys, you sure put a smile on my face.:D

Yup, snow birds think 40 is warm:D :D :D:D I remember one trip to Florida when my daughter was 10, the weather had been cool and the outdoor pool was maybe 72 and the temperature was in the high 60s. I could not get Chris out of the pool:rolleyes: She begged, just let me swim for 10 minutes.:p Everyone thought we were nuts:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: I told them, hey Lake Michigan is 55 degrees so the pool fees warm to her.:p:p

I want to try maintenance dose for 3 months. I just have to find out where Tylan and a food change fits into the treatment plan. What if this 3 month flare up is from her raw food? Maybe she cannot tolerate the bacteria any more. If I go down the lysodren road now I fear she will never get to change food.

What is more important try a little while longer to cure colitis or leave it go and treat the Cushings? The stress colitis from high cortisol, well, if Zoe has that, why does metronidazole help her? I would not think an antibiotic would mean anything. Maybe I am wrong.

Love you all and hope that California sun shines on all of you:) I won't even mention how cold it will be next week:eek::eek::eek:

Have my interrogation list for IMS. If anyone thinks of a question to add, let me know.

Love ya,
Addy

[apollo6]

Wish I could wave a majic wond for you.
It seems like it is getting more complicated. No clear answers.:mad::eek: Will post on my thread.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[addy]

Metronidazole is able to modify cell-mediated immunity so as to normalize excessive immune reactions, especially in the large intestine. We do not know how metronidazole is able to do this.


Is someone able to translate this into layman's terms for me?


I also read it can affect ALP- could it be the metronidazole affected Zoe's ALP making it normal and it is not really?

I am taking the rest of today off for Super Bowl Sunday. I am not huge football fan, hubby is, but our team is playing in the game today and our whole city has gone Super Bowl crazy:rolleyes:

Might as well join them:D:D:D

Have a great Sunday!!!!

Love,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Hi Addy!
There are 2 types bacteria that can cause colitis but there are other causes of the inflammation as well. Did your vet mention a bacterial infection? Antibiotics can in there own right, cause diarrhea and a bout of colitis. Just putting in my two cents:rolleyes: because I really have no knowledge about the medications.
Wanted you to know that we are thinking of you and Zoe.
Love and hugs,
Carrol

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Addy,

Here is info on what is meant by cell-mediated immunity....but what that means in English hopefully Debbie or someone can say.

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/content/BPL_Images/Content_store/Sample_chapter/9781405103473/gandhi.pdf


Cell-mediated immunity, an arm of the adaptive immune
system, is involved in the surveillance of not only the extracellular
but also the intracellular compartment for the
elimination of pathogens. Its mediators not only help B-cells
produce antibodies to neutralize extracellular pathogens
but also eliminate intracellular pathogens by killing cells
that harbor these pathogens. Targets of cellular immunity
include mycobacteria, fungi, and cells viewed as defective
or foreign, such as tumor cells and transplanted cells. Like
the humoral immune system, the cellular immune system
must be capable of (1) specific recognition of its targets, (2)
processing and presenting antigen to effector cells involved
in the immune response, (3) activating the most appropriate
components of the immune response to optimize pathogen
elimination, and (4) establishing memory of these pathogens
for more rapid elimination upon re-exposure.

[apollo6]

Just praying for you.
You are doing a great job. Sometimes we need to be cheered on.
Sonja and Apollo

[lulusmom]

Hi Addy,

I couldn't find any better explanation of cell mediated immunity than this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9rkTYCHf8

With respect to your other question about metronidazole and alkaline phosphatase, the answer is yes. I have seen Metronidazole listed as a good antioxidant for liver health so it can lower alkp. You also should remember that ALKP comes from the liver, bone and the gut (intestinal lining) so a dog with cushing's and chronic IBS/colitis can have high alkp from both conditions. It seems logical to me that effective treatment for both conditions can reduce alkp.

[addy]

Thank you Gylnda and Leslie,

It seems that cell mediated immunity is a positive thing about metronidazole. I guess I am trying to find information to make me feel more positive about her being on it. I somehow lost control of her colitis and am so upset I cannot get it back.

I cannot get her off this drug. I did read that Tagament used concurrently with metronidazole will increase the chances of side effects from the metronidazole. I am not clear if that is all Tagament type drugs. If it is that would present a problem treating Zoe with Trilostane or Lysodren.

Thaks you again and have a great day.

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Just checking in, Addy, and to say "Hi, we're thinking of you". Can't help with the med stuff but can still send warm hugs your way.
Love,
Carrol

[addy]

Hi Carrol,
I missed your last hi somehow, I saw Glynda and Leslie and missed you and Sonja:confused:,


Zoe finally had normal poo tonight. It is so cold she does not want to even go out and try to poo but tonight I carried her and insisted and then carried her back in. Her feet freeze right away. So now I will try another way of stopping one dose. I might haul out the pumpkin and give it a go. At least she has gained some weight after losing 1 1/2 pounds in December. I feel better she has her cushion of fat:D:D:D. I cut her food back a bit for a few days and fasted her between meals. She was not a happy camper about that:rolleyes:

Hoping to get in to see IMS next week. I feel like I am obsessed with metronidazole:eek::eek::eek::eek: Like I am on a crusade to stop it.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

From what I have read, it kills bacteria, kills parasites, helps inflammation and has the cell mediated immunity which could help if allergic problem:confused::confused:

So how does that tie in to stress colitis? Perhaps stress can cause inflammation? I feel like such a daaaaaaaaa:D:mad::rolleyes::confused:

LOL, I think I rest my brain for a few days. Our pipe from our well to the house needed to be replaced:eek: Thankfully, the damage to the yard, house and pocket book was not too great:rolleyes:

Love ya,
Addy

[Bichonluver3]

Oh, Addy, doesn't it just seem like one thing after another? I think this is supposed to make us stronger!:rolleyes:
Do you have boots for Miss Zoe? I remember, in Canada, having cold feet and it's not pleasant.
Yes, stress can cause inflammation - have you ever had the "trots" when you have been extremely nervous?
But, I would try to think of other things until you see IMS next week and get this all straightened out. I would take my shopping list of questions and stage a sit-in until I had all the answers.Try to relax, my dear friend, with a cup of coffee or glass of wine;) and maybe curl up with a good book (that has nothing to do with Cushing's!!) It would be a perfect "cuddle time" for the little Miss.
Well, off tomorrow am with all 3 in tow to non-anaesthetic dental appointments:)
Warm hugs,
Carrol

[littleone1]

Hi Addy,

I hope you finally be able to get some positive answers as how to proceed with Zoe's treatment.

Take care my dear friend.

[apollo6]

Dear Addy
Hope you get some answers next week.
I will post what is going on my thread.
Praying for you and Zoe. Always something.

[addy]

Thanks Best Friend, you are the best to always find time to check in.

Funny thing, I have been wondering why Zoe's B12 on her gastro panel is always high. Texas A & M says "there is no significance in this range"

Well today they were talking on TV about fad diets and one of the nutrionists said B12 comes from animals. The light bulb went on-Zoe's raw diet- she eats basically meat thus her high B12.

So of course, the nut that I am has now decided to research the benefits of B12 since we have so much of it:rolleyes: Not that I am trying to talk myself out of changing her food. I guess I was just excited to finally figure out why she had that high B12.

I should get a job as a researcher since that is all I seem to do;):cool::eek::rolleyes:

We are off to buy Valentine presents for the grandkids and the pups. The cold has finally left and the pups and I need to fly this coop.:D

We need to move forward, as I like to say.

Love you all,
Addy

[frijole]

Interesting Addy - buried deep the in Annie's thread is the fact that when she had the test that resulted in the diagnosis of bacteria in her small intestines (SIBO) her B 12 was WAY high also. I looked all over the place and most dogs with SIBO had low B12.

I then took Annie to Kansas State and they did the endoscopy which found the helicobacter in her stomach. She had bleeding ulcers in her stomach as well as down her entire esophagus. The vets there said it was not SIBO.

Just sharing since we seem to have a lot of similarities in our dog's cases. Kim

[Bichonluver3]

Oooooo, Addy, what do you mean "the cold has left"? You live in Milwaukee, girl!!!!!:eek:
Seriously, glad to know you guys are able to get a breath of fresh air. Interesting thought about the B12. Hmmmmm........wonder if the dogs in the wild had this problem:confused:
Hope everything settles itself out for you soon. Will keep checking in, my friend. We've got to keep Miss Zoe bopping along.
Lots of love & hugs,
Carrol

[addy]

Gee Kim, Just when I thought I had a B12 theory:) I forgot Annie had high B12. Was her folate normal? Zoe's is normal.

But was is yet even more interesting to me is a vet we saw two summers ago thought Zoe had helicobacter in her colon. He based that on her history and that all her other tests came back "Normal". He did not find it in her. My husband and I did not pay too much attention to him. We called him Vet Columbo as he was a bit like Columbo if you remember the TV series. We did not go back to him, he tried to tell me he knew Zoe as a puppy:rolleyes: and she had intestinal issues back then. WHAT???? The whole thing was just icky feeling but I still remember him saying he thought she had helicobacter. No one else has ever said that.:confused:

And yes Carrol, anything in the 30's is considered warm in Milwaukee. :D:D Wow, scary, huh? We get above freezing and it is a heat wave.:cool:

Texas A &M say no significance in her B12 reading. I just wanted to see the benefits of B12.

Hey Carrol, hubby wants to know how badly the Zeal smells. He is freaking out I might switch Zoe to Zeal. I alway put a dab of her Embark in her Kong for her to lick out so now he thinks the whole house is going to smell like fish if I do that with Zeal:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thanks Kim and Carrol and have a really good weekend!!!!!!

Love ya,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Tell your hubby he should be grateful you don't cook cod and liver once a week! :p:eek::p

[frijole]

Addy - yes, her folate was normal I believe.

From reading about it helicobacter is very very common and alot of dogs have it and live with it without any problems. They say that stress and 'events' can trigger it and that is when it needs to be treated.

In my case I had multiple big events that happened at the same time - Annie was given lysodren despite not having cushing's and Haley died. To treat the helicobacter you give 3 strong antibiotics at the same time for two weeks.

They would not have discovered it without the endoscopy.

On a better note - your weather will be getting even better because we are in the 40s and headed to the 60s next week! Hurrah. The snow will all melt which means I need to get out the pooper scooper. ha.

Kim

[addy]

Hmmmm, Kim, you do have me thinking though. I went to Vet Columbo because he saved my friend's dog's life. He was the only vet who figured out what was wrong with my friend's dog. So Zoe would have to have colonoscopy to find it? They can't find it any other way?

This is the first winter since Zoe was diagnosed with "colitis" that she did not have good poos. It used to be she got better in the winter. Last winter she was "cured" and I could not believe it. I could give her little pieces of food she could never eat and she was fine. I admit I even gave her popcorn (no butter or salt) and she was fine. It is her favorite so I can't eat it at home anymore because now she gets sick from it again.

Last winter she was on the shen calmer and natural thyroid supplement becuase she had borderline low T4 and T3. I then started to wonder if maybe she isn't borderline anymore but low thyroid becuase of the Cushings. Maybe I should ask IMS about both of these Wednesday.

What's a few more questions, right:eek::eek::eek:;);):D

HUGS

Addy

[frijole]

They took a culture from her stomach etc to look under a microscope to get the helicobacter dx. I would assume it would be similar for the other 'end'. ;):D

I am glad you are hiding the popcorn because it is awful for the colon. Sorry Zoe no more popcorn for you buddy. I'm sure mom has found alternative treats though.

[addy]

Organic boneless, skinless turkey breast that I slow roast:p Her only treats are turkey breast. I swear the dogs eat better than me. Though she does share her turkey with me for lunch sometimes.:D

I don't even want to tell you what we just spend at the pet store for their food:eek::rolleyes: I thought hubby was going to have a heart attack:o Then we came home and had a frozen pizza for our lunch. Yuk:p:p:p

I did not know that popcorn was horrible for the colon, glad you told me. That makes it even more amazing she was able to eat 4-5 pieces last winter.:confused:

[addy]

Zoe and I went for a walk!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Her paws did not freeze and I did not have to carry her home. It has been a long time.

She pranced down the hill and then stopped for some smells, woofed at my neighbor when I called out "Hi" and then stopped and did "watch me" waiting for chucken, which I forgot to bring and then she pranced right back up the hill and was not out of breath, her legs did not shake.

It may not seem like much, but I am smiling from ear to ear and so loving the moment:D:D:D

I have tears of joy in my eyes and just had to share.

Love,
Addy

[Squirt's Mom]

Oh, Addy!

I am so happy for you and Zoe! :D I know what a great, great feeling it is to see your baby acting so happy and full of life! I hope this is something you see much more often - you both certainly deserve to!

Hugs,
Leslie and the girls - always

[apollo6]

Dear Addy

So glad to hear about Zoe.
Compared to you I am a wimp about cold weather. Born in cold Toronto, Ontario, Canada now if it gets below 60 I am freezing:eek::eek:
I am waiting to get my computer back. Praying my data is not lost. I have so much research and articles on Apollo's cushing and copies of input from everyone. Computer tech has had my computer since WEdnesday now may not get until Monday.:eek:
I will post on my thread about Apollo.
Hugs Sonja and Apollo

[marie adams]

Hey There!!!

You thought I dropped off the face of the earth!!!:p:p

I am so happy for you and Zoe!!! Walks--they are the best--especially with your buddy!!!:):)

Maddie had 2 favorite people foods--POPCORN and Watermelon. She could smell both or knew the sounds of the popping and the cutting open of the watermelon. We were eating both one day in the kitchen--she sat between my husband and myself so we tested to see which one she would go for first---watermelon won, but it was a tough decision for her. The tortoises love watermelon also, so I would have to tell Maddie to LEAVE IT because she would lay in wait for the tortoises to finish or she would just outright steal it from them.:D

Keep enjoying those walks!!! :):)

[addy]

LOL Marie, Popcorn and watermelon are Zoe's favorites too. Though her number one is her turkey breast which we still call "chicken" from when we used to give her chicken. She knows the word so we never taught her the word "turkey"

One time at dog school Zoe was supposed to go through a tunnel. I was at the other end calling her to come through and she was too afraid to do it. Finally, the trainer said "don't make her, she is too afraid". My reply was "she can do it" and I yelled "chicken" really loudly throught the tunnel opening and there came Zoe at a million miles an hour. Of course I gave her her reward and the trainer just stood there dumb founded :D That's my girl, never underestimate her when it comes to "chicken".;)

Glad your back, I missed you.

Hugs,
Addy

[marie adams]

LOL!!!!:D:D I can just see you at the end of the tunnel yelling. Maddie would have been the same way, but I think when she was a puppy the first time she saw the tunnel she ran the opposite direction with the look of what the heck I'm not going thru that. She finally went thru when they shorten it up then no problem--she liked the game. They are sooo fun and their sense of humor priceless.:):)

So how's the weather???? I hope you got a heat wave going!!!:D

Looks like we are finally going to get some rain this week. I hope it is a good storm--guess we will wait and see. Darn those zinnia seeds are not planted yet!!!:( Why does work have to get in the way....

Happy Valentine's Day!!!:p Had to use a pink face--hehe....