Mypuppy:Princess (10 yr. old Lab on Trilostane) - has crossed the rainbow bridge

[labblab]

Hi Jeanette,

I, too, am so sorry that Princess is having some problems again. My non-Cushpup, Peg, just went through an acute pancreatitis attack in June, so I do understand your worry. As it turns out, I had also been feeding Peg a high-quality, high-protein dry kibble prior to the attack. What I had not paid much attention to was the fat content of the food: it was about 17% fat, which is similar to the fat content in the Orijen kibble. This is too much fat for a dog who is having a pancreatic flare. So the issue is not whether a food is grain-free or made of grain, but rather, what the specific nutritional analysis is. Here is an excellent article that explains why/when lowfat food is important for dogs vulnerable to pancreatitis, and it also tells you how to calculate the actual fat intake associated with any given food (it is a bit more involved than just looking at the percentage of fat on the label):

http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjlowfatdiets.html

If you are worried about pancreatitis, you really can't go wrong with temporarily sticking with a homemade diet of mushy boiled white rice and chicken breast. Once you get a better handle on what is going on with Princess, you can make a decision about returning to a commercial kibble. Ever since Peg's acute attack, I have kept her on California Natural Low-Fat Rice and Chicken kibble. That is one of the foods that are listed in the Dogaware link that I gave you. But there are plenty of others to choose from, as well. Unfortunately, most of the high protein, grain-free kibbles tend to be higher in fat. And perhaps Princess can return to that in the future. But I'd keep her off it right now while pancreatitis is a possibility.

Also, if it were me, I'd probably also hold off on the ACTH until you figure out what's going on and get her re-stabilized on the Vetoryl. If she is having a pancreatitis flare, for instance, that can skew the ACTH results and you won't really know what is normally going on with her cortisol level. I would definitely discuss that with your vet before going forward with the testing.

Keep us updated, OK?
Marianne

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

I hope everything turns out okay. Thinking of you and sending hugs your way.

Zoe was recently diagnosed with inflammatory bowel disease and they found helicobacter in her stomach and intestines but she is currently asymptomatic so I decided not to treat her. I did join an IBD group and they all talk about their dog's tummies gurgling from their IBD. Zoe's gurgles here and there but not horribly. I know I got worried about pancreatitis too whenever I would hear her gurgle.

Love and hugs,
addy

[Franklin'sMum]

Hi Jeanette (and Princess)

Hope Princess feels better soon, ((Hugs)) to you,

Jane, Franklin and Angel Bailey xxx

[mypuppy]

Hi Marianne,

Great of you to reply, thank you so kindly. I would have never known to check out the fat content on the label since I learned here that a good high protein food would be ideal for cushpups. Orijens is 17 percent, so yes I will stick to chicken and rice for now. Thanks also for the link, but would it be possible to resend, at your convenience of course. I was having problems viewing the info for some odd reason? As for her stim tomorrow, what exactly would skew the results of the test? GP put Princess on metronidazole as an antiflammatory. Would that also skew the ACTH? As much as I am torn on whether to proceed or not with her stim, I can't help but wonder what her numbers are since it has been 3 months since her last stim, and I fear starting this all over again. It has only been a couple of days without her Vetoryl. UGH UGH. bTW, can you purchase the California diet online only or do some commercial food stores carry? I will check mine up here. Thanks so much again, and I am also sorry your baby had an issue on pancreatitis as well. are their other serious signs I should be looking for since Princess was not truly diagnosed with it?

best regards to you and the colorful gang....luv ya. jeanette

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

Zoe takes metronidazole with her trilostane every morning. Her IMS said it does not affect the way her trilostane is absorbed nor does it affect her stim. If she was in the middle of a colitis/IBD flare up it most likely would have some affect on her stim.

Love,
addy

[labblab]

Hi again, Jeanette!

I'm sorry the link is not working for you. I just tried it again myself, and it is working fine for me. So I don't think it will help much if I repeat it. But you can go directly to the website and locate the article there. Just go to dogaware.com, then click on "Articles" on the menu at the top of the page, and then click on "Low-Fat Diets." Several stores in my area carry the California Natural food that I am feeding Peg. But once you have a chance to read the article, you'll see that it contains a table listing a whole bunch of commercial foods that you can choose from. And as you'll also see from the article, it may or may not be the case that Princess would need to remain on low-fat food indefinitely. It'll depend upon whether she is actually suffering from pancreatitis, and how things go in terms of resolution and recovery.

I agree with Lori that the best test for pancreatitis in dogs is the spec cPL test. That is how we diagnosed Peg. She was vomiting and had some diarrhea, but she otherwise did not outwardly look all that ill. She was still hungry, and didn't seem particularly uncomfortable. But she had vomited several times over a couple of days, so I went ahead and took her in to the vet. On the initial testing, her lipase was somewhat elevated, but no big deal. Just to be on the safe side, we went ahead and drew blood for the spec cPL test, not expecting that it would really be elevated. But holy cow, the results were extremely high and totally diagnostic for acute pancreatitis. I was so grateful we had gotten those results because otherwise I would not have known how important it was to limit Peg's fat intake immediately. It is now five months later and she has not had a recurrent attack. But she is looking and behaving great, and so I am still keeping her on the lowfat kibble indefinitely because she is taking phenobarb for seizures, and dogs on phenobarb are also more vulnerable to pancreatitis -- just like Cushpups.

So if it were me, I'd be swapping the spec cPL test for the ACTH. If by any chance Princess is suffering from pancreatitis, it is the physiological effect of the inflammation that has the potential to skew the ACTH test, and not the metronidazole. Illness other than Cushing's can cause the body to increase the production of cortisol, so Princess' ACTH might come back higher than normal in the event that she is in the midst of a pancreatitis flare. Also, the fact that she's now been off her Vetoryl for a couple of days will also give you an inaccurate sense of the therapeutic effect of the drug. Vetoryl leaves the body in approx. 18 hours, so if you test her tomorrow after having gone for several days without the drug, you'll not be able to judge the appropriateness of her current dose. The only reason why I'd be anxious to press onward with an ACTH tomorrow would be if you're afraid that Princess' cortisol has dropped too low and that is what is causing the vomiting and diarrhea. Otherwise, I'd want to hold off until she is back on her normal Vetoryl regimen and the pancreatitis has been ruled out.

Was the ACTH going to be done by your regular vet or by the IMS? Of course, you'll need to talk all this over with one of both of them. But as I say, if it was me, I'd want to talk to them about rescheduling the ACTH in favor of having the pancreatitis test performed.

Marianne

[lulusmom]

Hi Jeanette.

In addition to echoing everything Marianne has already told you, I wanted to tell you that my mom's dog went through a similar experience a few weeks ago. She had been vomiting all day and unfortunately, my mom didn't call me until after hours. I ran her to the er where she was hospitalized and put on IV fluids after bloodwork showed 5000+ lipase, with a tiny increase in ALT, and cPL snap test confirmed pancreatitis. She was kept until 1) bloodwork done 24 hours later showed improvements and 2) she would eat. She was released with instructions to feed small meals of boiled, boneless, skinless chicken breasts and rice for four to five days and to finish medications prescribed. Chloe is back to her old self and doing well.

Did your vet prescribe any medication?

Glynda

[mypuppy]

Hi Addy,

Thank you for your comments. I have so much to sort out between today and tomorrow. Still torn as to whether I should go ahead with stim regardless. Taking into consideration Princess's sensitivity to Vetoryl and her cortisols dropping below the desired theraupeutic range, why my gut is telling me to go ahead and check those levels tomorrow even though she has been off the meds for a couple of days. but I have considered Mariannes points here as well, so I suppose I will play it by ear tomorrow. Will let everyone know. princess seems fine now and is eating and playing. I hope it stays that way. I'm sending you and your precious Zoe very tight hugs and much love.

Xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

hey Glynda,

Sorry about moms dog--that's very scary. I can't say whatever was happening to Princess can compare to what your moms dog went through, and of course we don't know for a fact if it related to pancreatitis. According to her gp her lipase was high but she did not recommend any medication other than the metradanizole. what else can trigger a high lipase? Could low cortisol give a high lipase? I obviously have a lot to consider before tomorrow, ain't it always the case:(, so I will let you and the others know. Btw, is there a differences between a spec c/pl and a snap c/pl test to rule out pancreatitis? And is it just a simple blood draw? Will the metrDanizole interfere with that test as well?

So many questions so little time, sorry...running to shovel all 20 inches of white he'll that fell yesterday--ughhhh. it will be a white Halloween, now that's no treat if you ask me. talk or pm soon.

Xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Jeanette saying prayers for your little one - hope things get better!! 20 inches of snow - where do you live? Does princess enjoy the white stuff??

[mypuppy]

Awww Cindy, you are so sweet to think of me and my girl, thank you soooo much...I live in New York State, the mountains indeed. I am still amazed we got so much snow in October...WOW! I think this is an indication of what our winter will be like, and last years was terrible, so can't imagine this one.

Talk soon and warmest regards to you and Penny..

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Jane,

How very lovely to hear from such a special "mum", and specially in my hour of need and support, thank you dearly....Hope you and the cute faced Franklin are doing real well these days, and the rest of your gang as well.

Sending you lots of love and tight hugs right back....

Much love...Jeanette and Princess

[mypuppy]

ps. does anyone feel venison would be a lower fat meat to give to my girl against chicken? just saying, because I have heard venison is very lean, but not sure if leaner than chicken?

xo Jeanette

[lulusmom]

Hi again.

A snap test is done in office and results are instantaneous as opposed to sending the bloodwork out to a lab. IDEXX Laboratories sell various snap kits to veterinarians. I spoke to an IDEXX rep a few years back about the acth snap tests, which is how I found out about snap kits. The machines are pretty pricey so they are cost prohibitive for a lot of vets.

Metronidazole is an antibiotic and anti-inflammatory prescribed for pancreatitis and other GI/bowel issues so it looks like Princess is on the right med. Since Princess had mild symptoms and was probably not dehydrated, your vet may not have thought a cPLI test was necessary as the outcome would not have changed his prescribed treatment of bland diet and Metronidazole. That's just my two cents worth. Lori has more experience with this so she can tell you if I'm full of hooey. :D

[labblab]

I definitely agree with Glynda that Lori is our resident expert re: pancreatitis, so you can also take my comments with a grain of salt. However, I do believe that with the snap cPLI test that is done in-office, you only get a "positive" or a "negative" result in terms of pancreatitis. You do not get a numerical result that tells you the degree of elevation, and therefore you also don't have a basis to compare future test results in terms of numerical improvement or worsening. My vet's office had the option of the snap test for Peg, but both he and I preferred to send the blood sample out to IDEXX. And as it turned out, we were glad that we did because her result was elevated so much higher than we would have predicted from her appearance. By sending the test out, we got an actual number that we could compare with her repeat testing a month later (and fortunately she was back within normal range).

If it seems to you that Princess is totally back to normal again, then maybe additional testing isn't necessary. But if she starts back in with the vomiting, I'd be back on the testing bandwagon again, too. Because I think the ongoing test results really will help govern future dietary preferences. I believe Lori's Harley was a dog who was outwardly largely asymptomatic but still suffered from chronic pancreatitis. And in that type of situation, I think the dietary changes are basically permanent rather than temporary. You just don't want to risk an acute flare by returning to higher-fat foods. Whereas in the instance of a one-time acute episode, the dog may do fine with returning to its normal food once the acute flare has subsided. But once again, I also hope that Lori will stop back by to add her thoughts.

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Oh my dear friends,

I feel so blessed to have you during these bumps on the road with my girl. At times it seems so very stressful with everything else to get to on a daily basis, and I feel my hands are tied. I'd love nothing more than to be on this forum all day and night in order to do so much more for my girl, but life takes over and I always get sidetracked with one thing or another. I want to give my Princess 100 percent and feel guilty many a times that I can't. It's such an unbearable feeling at times, alwAys torn about doing my very best, that's why Id like to know which is the best diet I should be feeding her. I hear so many mixed opinions as to what that is and alwAys end up wondering if she is on the proper food. I took a drive to my pet food store after shoveling and it was so overwhelming to say the least. I did not know where to look anymore with so many brands and variations, so I walked out with nothing for now. uGH, help help. right now Princess is on orijen grain free dry. I heard if there is possibility of pancreatitis I should incorporate grains and lower protein and fat? Marianne I did find the California natural you mentioned earlier, but again, went nowhere with it.

Truth is I think I have decided to go ahead with tomorrows stim, because I think I will alwAys wonder if perhaps her cortisol dropped and it's the real cause for the recent episode. Another reason I came to that decision is that Princess is not drinking any water whatsoever, so for me and her past history, that sends a big red flag for me. Anyone agree? if I lose 260.00 unnecessarily, so be it, but this is driving me bonkers.

it seems by popular opinion that Lori is the person to speak to with any issues of pancreatitis, therefore, Lori, I would love to get more in for on how you addressed your boy, Harley's issues with this condition and what kind of diet were you feeding him, as well as anything else you'd like to share with me. What treats did you give him as well?

So this is where we are my friends--stuck between a rock and a very hard place, but this too shall pass I know.

I can't thank each of you enough for your patience and dedication toward me and my girl--I feel her and I would not be here had it not been for your unconditional concern, and I am so happy my girl has made it pass the 2 year survival mark I was told at her diagnosis. I truly wish I can have 100 more, :(:(

I love you all...Jeanette

[addy]

If it is driving you bonkers then do it or you will go even sicker with worry, my opinion. Also the diet and metronidazole the vet gave you is also for an acute IBD flare up which your vet thought may be the case. I am not saying it is not possibly pancreatitis. Lori will stop by, I am sure.

You know Princess best and you do a wonderful job, Jeanette, dont beat yourself up so. The fact Princess is past the 2 year mark you vet mentioned is certainly testamony of that.:):)

As for the food, you need a low fat food. I'll go take a look on dogaware or some of my old Whole Dog Jounals. IMO, I don't know much about panceatitis but if it is not pancreatitis but some kind of IBD flare up from the stomach, you need to be careful when switching foods.

Calling Lori, yoooooohoooooooo:D:D:D:D

trying to make you smile,
love,
addy

Is it possible Princess got into something and ate something she should not have?

[mypuppy]

Awwww Addy, you are just sweet, and definitely made me lol..."Lori, yoo-hoo"--hysterical. if I wouldn't know any better, I'll have to guess she may be shoveling her 20 inches of snow today, since we are both on the east coast and got hit hard last night....let's give her some time to defrost--it's cold too-- this shouldn't be happening in October...yikes...

But anyway, I have not seen Princess get into anything in the yard since I am always with her, and also she's not your typical crazy lab who gets into/chews and eats everything in sight. The only other thing I thought of was that my little one sneaked some food into her that perhaps didn't agree, but I really don't think that's it to be honest. Time will tell I suppose.

Stay tuned....

Much love....Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Something just dawned on me if I decide to go ahead with tomorrows stim...since Princess is not taking her Vetoryl, do they only need to take a pre draw sample or do they still do the post? Sorry for my ignorance but would like to know.

jeanette

[lulusmom]

Jeanette, since pancreatitis can definitely skew the post acth stimulated cortisol level, you may want to consider doing a baseline cortisol but remember that pancreatitis can elevate baseline cortisol too.

[Harley PoMMom]

Hi Jeanette!

So sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, I'm working 7 days a week and we just a snow storm so I had to do some shoveling! :eek:

Since the pancreas is most stimulated to produce enzymes by foods that are high in protein, fiber and fat, a diet for pancreatitis needs to be lower in protein and very low in fat. From what I have read a low fat percentage and a moderate protein and fiber content diet with a lot of carbs is best when first starting the dog to eat after a pancreatitis attack. According to Mary Straus (from dogaware); Low fiber is recommended for dogs in the initial recovery stages of acute pancreatitis, as fiber slows gastric emptying, which may prolong pancreatic stimulation. If you home-cook her meals than a diet lower in protein and very low in fat would have additional carbohydrates added for calories. If feeding kibble than I would look for a very low fat and moderate protein and fiber kibble. Is Princess taking any antiacids like pepsid ac, if not I would recommend it.

I had a diet formulated for Harley and initially this diet contained only 3% fat. Diet is so important with dogs that have pancreatitis, other things I suggest are: Maintaining her ideal weight, Feeding several small meals throughout the day and Making sure that she stay hydrated. A well hydrated dog experiences better blood flow to the pancreas and faster healing. I would also have a fasted serum triglyceride test done.

Concerning the snap cPL and the spec cPL; I prefer the spec cPL (thru IDEXX) if possible for the reason as Marianne has mentioned, getting a specific number so one can see if the changes they are performing are making a difference.

Here's an excerpt about the snap cPL:
The SNAP cPL Test uses the same biological reagents as the Spec cPL Test, but displays results in 10 minutes. The test result is displayed as a colored sample spot that must be compared to a reference spot. If the color intensity of the sample spot is lighter than the color intensity of the reference spot, then cPL concentration is normal. If the color intensity of the sample spot is equal to or darker than the reference spot, then cPL concentration is abnormal (either “elevated” or “consistent with pancreatitis.”)
http://www.idexx.co.uk/animalhealth/testkits/snapcpl/library/096905800m.pdf

Handy link with info about the spec cPL: http://www.idexx.com/view/xhtml/en_us/smallanimal/reference-laboratories/testmenu/innovative-tests/spec-cpl.jsf

I will help in any way I can, so please do not hesitate to ask any and all questions.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[labblab]

Jeanette, if it does turn out that Princess has pancreatitis and needs an altered diet, I just wanted to add that the carbohydrate group includes such things as white and sweet potatoes as well as grains. Mushy white rice is recommended initially because it is probably one of the easiest carbs to digest. But per Mary Strauss of that Dogaware article, you don't necessarily have to exclude grain-free foods that instead contain such things as potatoes as their carbohydrate source as long as the protein level is moderate and the fats are lower. The problem I've had is that most of the high-quality, moderate protein, grain-free kibbles that I've seen still have fat levels that are too high for a dog at risk for pancreatitis (and that's why I switched back to a grain-containing food). But there may be some out there.

[labblab]

Something just dawned on me if I decide to go ahead with tomorrows stim...since Princess is not taking her Vetoryl, do they only need to take a pre draw sample or do they still do the post? Sorry for my ignorance but would like to know.

jeanette
Also, I agree with what Glynda wrote. Under the circumstances, you might want to just opt for a baseline resting cortisol tomorrow and hold off on the full stim test until Princess is stabilized again on Vetoryl. If her cortisol level is high, you couldn't determine the exact cause. But at least you'd hopefully have a clue as to whether it is running so low right now that it could be the reason for her vomiting and diarrhea.

[Harley PoMMom]

I found a list for low-fat kibble on the dogaware site...the link: http://dogaware.com/articles/wdjlowfatdiets.html#drytable

[addy]

yup, I found the list too, was just going to copy it for you:D

also, keep in mind, if it is bothering you about quality protein you could possibly mix 2 foods together or add your own fresh protein to a low fat food. I would caution about making sure you don't use up too many proteins. I made that mistake with Zoe. I did not realize they count even a small bit of a novel protein if you end up ever having to make a list of proteins used in case you ever need one never fed. I mention it because you were talking about venison.

Dogaware.com has so much info and I have a 2008 WDJ issue that also talks about low fat diets. I was worried the foods listed there may have changed since 2008.

I have learned alot about pancreatitis this afternoon waiting for tricker or treaters to come (only 2 showed up:() Was not happy to find a WDJ Nov 2008 issue talking about a possible link from metronidazole as well as other medications :eek::eek::eek: Hope there is newer info which shows that is not the case.

20" of snow!!!! The day before Halloween, thank goodness neither of you lost power.

hugs and love,
addy

[mypuppy]

LOL Lori,

If you backtrack to an earlier post to Addy, I mentioned you may have been shoveling after our big storm.. We got 20 inches, how about you in Pennsy? I am very sore, as Im sure you are too--there's gotta be an easier way--lol

getting back to diets, I have been taking notes of all your info--very useful. And tha ks for all the links. I definitely need to do my homework with all this before I make a final switch.

I appreciate all your help honestly. Just hoping maybe my girl had a little stomach bug, but I will be watching. OH sorry, Princess did take pepcid on occasion with her Vetoryl. I was always afraid to give to her on a daily basis. is it safe to give daily, and do I still give 30 minutes before her Vetoryl?

Aside from that, I was curious what kind of treats did you give Harley that are also low fat? And lastly, are fruits and veggies ok to as well, apples, carrots, any others?

So sorry for picking your brain all day today:eek:

Tight ones...Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi again everyone,

Well it seems Princess is not meant to be stimmed tomorrow as my gut had wanted. it turns out that due to the storm, my daughters will be on a 2 hour delay from school, and so I was forced to cancel my appointment, because I am an hour away, each way it would not give me enough time to get back to get my kids from school. Dang snow...I will try to reschedule her stim for possibly Wednesday.

it's been a long weekend, so I will say good night and check in tomorrow. thanks again to everyone...

Xo Jeanette
Ps to Addy: thanks for doing all that hard work. Sorry. And white Halloween is just not right lol xo

[Harley PoMMom]

Fruits and veggies are ok to give but in moderation because they do contain some fiber. The treats that Harley got were home-made, either I would make them or I would buy them.

Slippery elm or pepcid ac can be safely given every day. I prefer Slippery elm over pepcid ac.

Holy Cow, 20 inches!!! We got 8 inches here in PA but it was so darn wet and heavy to shovel. I guess Winter is here before Fall!:eek:

Love and hugs,
Lori

[addy]

I like to research so happy to try to help. I got curious on the amount of fat in Zoe's raw turkey diet so, calculated on a dry matter basis 39.5%, Bag says minimum 15%:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: OMG, I'm freaking!!!!

Always something to think about:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hope you can work out the stim and the snow melts. You sound so tired.

hugs,
addy

[mypuppy]

OMG Addy, if your bag says 15% and it converted to that high fat, that means Princess is definitely on an even higher fat dry kibble. Orijen's is 17%....OMG, OMG, OMG. I must admit ever since I switched Princess to a grain free, high protein, I notice her different someway. Maybe just coinkidink I noticed when I switched her food, but a mom notices these things, don't we? Just don't know and probably never will. Unfortunately, Princess's stomach started up again last night, all night with the loud gurgling. Ugh..my poor baby. I gave her a pepcid last night with her metro and thought that would help, but seems made it worse? who knows? and I am really bummed I couldn't get her in for that stim today, and just tried to reschedule and no openings till thursday....blehhhhh.

Glad you enjoy researching all this stuff, so search on for the rest of us....lol.....

Take care and rubs to Zoe....xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Morning everyone,

Another one of those questions that dawned on me in the middle of the night--aint it funny how all these thoughts come creeping in on us while we are trying to sleep:eek:

I am not sure if it was Marianne, Glynda, Debbie or all who said cortisol levels continue to go drop even when you stop Vetoryl? Maybe I misunderstood that comment a while back, but can any of you clarify if that could be going on with Princess although she has been off the meds for a few days?

Thanks all....xo J.

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,

I couldn't believe that Princess has had a setback after you were saying how well she was doing last week. I know how it is though, as soon as the words come out everything changes! I can't be sure but I don't think cortisol levels keep dropping after being off Vetoryl for a few days, someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I am really hoping that it's just a bug but, if not, I hope you get some answers soon.

Thinking of you all,
Linda xx

[labblab]

I am not sure if it was Marianne, Glynda, Debbie or all who said cortisol levels continue to go drop even when you stop Vetoryl? Maybe I misunderstood that comment a while back, but can any of you clarify if that could be going on with Princess although she has been off the meds for a few days?
Hi Jeanette,

Linda is right that cortisol levels should not continue to drop after Vetoryl has been discontinued. Maybe you're thinking of comments we've made about Lysodren, because it continues to erode the adrenal cortex further for about 48 hours after the dog ingests the medication. Or re: trilostane, we also tell people that cortisol levels may continue to drop throughout the first few weeks when dogs first start the med or when a dosing change is made -- but this is assuming that the dog is continuing to take the trilostane daily. Once trilostane is discontinued, the drug should clear the body in about 18 hours. This doesn't mean that we haven't seen dogs with cortisol levels that have remained low for extended periods of time after stopping trilo -- I think Princess is an example of that, right? She got to take an extended vacation from trilo because her cortisol level remained low for quite a while. But this must be due to some residual effect on the adrenals, and not because the trilo remains in the system and continues to drive the cortisol lower.

Also, you don't have to worry that the "dry matter" analysis of Princess' Orijen kibble is significantly higher than the analysis printed on the bag. I just checked, and there is only a 10% moisture content in the kibble. So when you look at the "dry matter" analysis for the Orijen, the fat content only increases to approx. 19% (you divide the 17% fat that is listed on the bag by the 90% dry matter). It is foods that have a high moisture content (like canned or raw) that are going to have nutritional numbers that are going to be a lot higher when you do the "dry matter" conversions. Kibble is already very dry, so the analysis stays about the same as the numbers that are printed on the bag.

And even those numbers can be somewhat misleading when you are comparing one dry kibble to another. Because your dog's actual nutritional intake will depend on the calorie differential between foods and how much of each type of kibble you'll be feeding. If you're feeding a smaller amount of high-calorie kibble with a higher fat content, your dog may still be actually consuming less total fat each day than if you're feeding a larger amount of lower fat kibble. That's where the link to the dogaware.com article comes in really handy -- it tells you how to do that comparative calculation, too.

I truly understand how the food decisions can drive you crazy!!!!!!! I obsessed for days when I picked out Peg's new food. Since it has such limited ingredients, I'd like to switch it up a bit and shift to something else for awhile. But she's just doing so well that I hate to rock the boat right now in any way.

I'm so sorry that Princess still seems to be feeling "off." I know you'll be relieved to finally get some testing done, and hopefully get some answers as well.

Marianne

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Sweetie,

Nothing to add other than my support. Following along and sending prayers for all.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[mypuppy]

Dear Linda and Marianne,

Thank you both for clearing up the cortisol issue. Now I do recall it was based on a dog who had begun treatment and continues on meds, but I wanted to make sure of it just in case? As you know there is so much info. on the forum, sometimes its hard to absorb every bit of it, well at least for those with pea and scatter brains..LOL....

Marianne, peabrain here again....would you mind interpreting your Orijen food comments into English? haaaaaaaaaaa......What exactly did you mean? As Addy, math is not my strongest subject, and although that dog ware website is extremely valuable, I would still screw up the math in converting all that fat and dry matter stuff--LOL...So sorry. What I am gathering you said, somewhat is that Orijen may not be as high in fat as I assuming? Again, sorry.

Lastly, due to speak to IMS sometime today regarding her chemistry profile since a few of her numbers were out of range. Princess did well last night, and there was no stomach gurgling at all. She is still on the mushy chicken and rice diet. One strange thing I noticed today though was the fact that she was laying in the living room where the sun was hitting her. It is definitely out of character for her to ever lay in the sun, so does this raise any questions for anyone? Can low cortisol make a dog cold intolerant vs. high to heat intolerance? Always lots of questions, so I do apologize to all for that.

I will let you know how my conversation with my IMS goes and what her plan is, and we are proceeding with a baseline cortisol stim on Thursday?

I appreciate everyones help sincerely...

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Awww Leslie,

It is always so very nice to see you stop in on me and my girl. We have missed you and so many others on here, and certainly hoping you and the babies are holding your own.

Thank you always for your well wishes, it does make a difference in our lives....

All the best to you and the gang.

Tight hugs...Jeanette and Princess

[labblab]

Marianne, peabrain here again....would you mind interpreting your Orijen food comments into English? haaaaaaaaaaa......What exactly did you mean? As Addy, math is not my strongest subject, and although that dog ware website is extremely valuable, I would still screw up the math in converting all that fat and dry matter stuff--LOL...So sorry. What I am gathering you said, somewhat is that Orijen may not be as high in fat as I assuming? Again, sorry.

Jeanette, I'm sorry I made things sound so confusing. What I was responding to was this earlier exchange between you and Addy. First, Addy said this:


I like to research so happy to try to help. I got curious on the amount of fat in Zoe's raw turkey diet so, calculated on a dry matter basis 39.5%, Bag says minimum 15% OMG, I'm freaking!!!!

Then you said this:


OMG Addy, if your bag says 15% and it converted to that high fat, that means Princess is definitely on an even higher fat dry kibble. Orijen's is 17%....OMG, OMG, OMG.

It sounded as though you were figuring that the fat in your Orijen kibble would turn out to be even more than the 39.5% in Zoe's raw turkey food. And that is not true. Because there is so much more moisture in canned food and raw food than there is in kibble, a method by which you can make direct comparisons of the nutritional value is to calculate the nutrients on a "dry matter" basis -- in other words, if the moisture was taken out of all the foods, how would they compare to one another. With the moisture taken out, Addy's raw food is 39.5% fat. With the moisture taken out of the Orijen kibble, the fat content only increases to around 19%. That is too high a fat content for a dog with pancreatitis, but not as high as I think you were fearing.

Hope this makes things a little easier to understand. :o :o

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Hello friends,

Just heard back from my IMS. We discussed Princess's recent chemistry profile, and she didn't see anything remarkable. I pointed out the high lipase and the possibility of pancreatitis, and again she said she did not see any indication of such. Her recommendation is to reintroduce her regular diet again, and see how she tolerates it, and reintroduce her vetoryl after 7 days and stim 7 - 10 days thereafter. She doesn't see the need to stim her now since Princess has been off vetoryl for several days and since she has not been exhibiting any symptoms of diarrhea or vomiting. BTW, I also asked about giving Princess pepcid, and point blank she said she is not an advocate for giving pepcid to a dog on vetoryl. What does that really mean? tune in for more when I get a more direct answer.

So this is it my friends. I will give this a try once again and hope this was just a fluke upset tummy.

I want to thank each and everyone of you once again for holding my hand and guiding me through this every time. This is one ride no one. Should take alone.

love you all dearly...xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Jeanette - I get it - I never get straight answers neither - but my vet and my new IMS both said to give her pepcid and beause she is 82 lbs give it twice a day - I can say I really believe it helps -- fingers and paws crossed that things go well for Princess - keep me updated :) xo

[mypuppy]

hi everyone,

I wAnted to give a quick update on my girl. She seems to be doing well right now. I reintroduced her dry kibble this morning wih her chicken but she wasn't too interested, but by noon she finally ate some. Her stools are solid, and her stomach has not been gurgling.

The only thing that concerns me is that she has not touched her water bowl in two days. OH boy, this reminded me of back when her cortisol had dropped too low, and she was not drinking at all. I find it unusual she is not drinking, although I do know her foods always contain some water, and I also add extra water to it anyway. But just saying, shouldn't she be drinking?

Thats all for now..

Sending some tight hugs to all of you...
Xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi everyone,

Was hoping to learn if any of you had ever given Natures instinct dog food to any of your babies, and if you noticed any problems with it

Thanks for any info .

jeanette

[labblab]

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the Nature's Instinct. But is Princess drinking any more water yet? I hope so! I don't know what it might mean now, but I do remember that it was one of your warning signals before. So I understand why you're concerned. Does your IMS know that she hadn't been drinking any water?

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Hi Marianne,

Thanks for your input. Princess is still not drinking, but I am making her meals quite mushy. She vomited first thing this morning, and barely touched her breakfast. her stools are fine. I just fed her a bit of wet California natural chicken and rice and she ate it, and she then ate a treat. I'm afraid she has gotten so picky with her dry kibble, and am going crazy trying to figure out if I should changer her dry or just feed her canned?

Will keep you posted.

Xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Jeanette - What did the IMS say about not drinking any water - Princess should be drinking - how is she otherwise?

[Rebelsmom]

Hey Jeanette, just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you and Princess. I hope you can get her figured out soon. Rebel has also become quite picky with his food. He doesn't seem to care for the Acana Pacifica as much as he likes the Acana Chicken one. But because of Sadie's skin issues I like her on the Pacifica. I tell you having another pup in the house helps though. He will sit by his bowl just looking at me when it's time to eat. It's more of a "is that what you are feeding me look!" As soon as Sadie is done eating though and walks his way he gobbles it up! He is such a brat, but I love him anyway.

Sending hugs and love your way,
Melissa

[mypuppy]

Hi again,

I just got off the phone with my ims, and she wants to do a stim tomorrow latest. Wow! that was my suggestion to her and she steered me away from it. I asked her if it would only be a baseline cortisol, and she said she wants a complete ACTH. Of course she couldn't elaborate on why? I think I am coming back as a vet in my next life, a rather empathetic, professional, sweet and caring one, that is. uGHHH.

I'm guessing I won't have any results till Monday.

Wish us lucks and prayers...

Xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi Melissa,

Thanks for your support. Here we go again. This not eating issue is very draining, but I cant say for a fact if its due to her pickiness or something else going on. I am hoping tomorrows stim will tell something. If thats good, I may just need to borrow Sadie for a while so Princess can eat. LOL.

Glad you are all doing fine, and btw, I love the profile pic. That's adorable, wish it were a close up.

all the best to you, the spoiled brat, and Sadie.

love you lots. Xo Jeanette and my sweet Princess

[Squirt's Mom]

You'll come back as a vet and end up with a whole slew of panicky, bawling parents like me beating down your door! :p Be careful what you wish for! LOL :D

Hope you get some answers soon and our sweet Princess is once again her usual self.

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[mypuppy]

Dearest Leslie,

LOL, but seriously I know if that were the case, Id be all ears to every single one of those bawling parents' and offer them some very tight hugs. They wouldn't be just another number to get to...Such is life.

Thanks for always making me smile and your kind friendship....

luv ya much....xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

I would want you as my vet!!!!!! You would be the sweetest vet around!!!!! Glad they are doing the ACTH - ok I will get pennys back tomorrow and you will get yours Monday - we have some opposite problems - I cant stop penny from drinking and you can get Princess to drink:eek: Now Penny is being fussy and doesnt want to eat!! ugg here we go!! Maybe she got sick of her new food - I switched to Merrick kibble - now what to I use??? Never a dull moment!! Will keep Princess in my prayers for sure!!! and you too!! xo

[mypuppy]

Oh Cindy,

You are just the sweetest yourself, thank you. Boy, we've certainly gotten our panties in a bunch lately with our girls, huh? LOL.:eek: I can't believe Penny is getting picky as well. I had Princess on Merrick Turducken for 5 years, and she did so well on it. In hindsight I mow regret making the switch, but I started learning on grain free and how brains are not necessary, and in fact not great for dogs with food allergies, and so I switched. I must admit though, Princess does not get as many ear infections since I switched her to grain free. As I have said in many of my earlier posts, I have gone crazy over her diet these last few days, and just wonder if it's the food making her sick or she's just plain old sick of it--lol?? I went back to the pet food store and switched her to acana wild prairie in the hope she will eat. Part of me wants to force her to eat, but then I have heard a dog will not starve themselves and will eat eventually when they are hungry. As you I'm at my wits end with this, but I will continue to do my very best for my girl. As for your Penny, I do so hope tomorrow will tell something and praying it will only be a dose adjustment for her. With Princess, she has had a history of her cortisol dropping too low, and have had to lower her dose several times, and even had to stop it altogether for 5 full months, but of course as easy as it dropped, it came back up full force. this is the most aggravating aspect of cushings I believe. it'd be so nice if they would be stabilized on one dose without the constant worry of serious side effects and rebounding symptoms, but that's in a perfect world I suppose. I am wishing your baby girl a smooth stim tomorrow, and hoping they will allow you to be in with her (I don't see what's the big deal in that, goodness!)--my fur moms will be allowed in my exam room anytime they wish--in my next life--haaa).

Praying for Pennys well being.. Lots of belly rubs to her..

Xo Jeanettw

[addy]

Oh, now up to speed with Princess. I am so sorry the stim was postponed and she is not drinking and wanting to eat.

Sending you many hugs, it so hard when you don't know what is happening with them.

I came to the conclusion, along time ago, I don't think there is a perfect diet, one diet helps this but may cause that, etc. We can just do our best and keep trying.

Can we be your first patient if you come back as a vet? Zoe say "dear Dr. Jeanette, take me, take me!!!!!":D:D:D:D:D:D:DMy Koko can be your resident Dr. Dog- he runs to Zoe's rescue now every time she does that reverse sneezing and makes her stop it.:D:D He thinks it is his job:):):):):)

love and hugs, holding your hand while you wait,
addy

[mypuppy]

Dear Addy,

In the midst of all your trials, you manage to keep your spirits high, your great sense of humor, and a great big heart--that's the spirit and that's what I love about you.....thanks for your great example ..

Let me clarify that Princess did get stimmed yesterday after all. Hope to hear something today... Princess ate and drank a little more yesterday, but it seems she is having a hard time standing up. I learned on the forum that when their cortisol is stabilized they excarberate their arthritis issues, which truth is she had never truly exhibited. Who knows?

As for the diet issue, I think you are so right, so I've given up on trying to figure out what that is, if any. I have to say I know people who feed their dogs a supposedly lower quality commercial dogwood out there, and their dogs don't seem to have the issues that I've seen in many dogs on high quality food. :eek:

BTW, Zoe and Koko are most definitely on top of my list of special patients--haaaa. Now I must get to my real life patients for now, my fur one and my teenage daughter who has a miserable cold...chicken soup and some kibbles and bits anyone? Haaaaa.....

Talk soon. Xo Jeanette

[addy]

I have to say I know people who feed their dogs a supposedly lower quality commercial dogwood out there, and their dogs don't seem to have the issues that I've seen in many dogs on high quality food.

Ditto for me on that one. :D:D:D:D:D Keep in mind Zoe's high fat diet- the one that has enough fat for SLED dogs :eek::eek: as Mary Strauss said:eek: was given to me by a vet I went to see who was advertised as traditional/holistic vet with nutrition counseling available:confused::confused:

Previous to that her other vet had her on perscription canned ID which she never really did well on.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Hope the stim results come soon.

love ya,
addy

[mypuppy]

OMG....:eek: how is that possible?

Sorry, but after hearing that one today I am starting Princess on a premium, extremely high fat table scraps diet----haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.:D

Damned if you do, damned if you don't kinda thing, huh?

love ya....J

[mypuppy]

Hi everyone,

I finally just heard back from IMS wih Princess's stim results:

Pre: 1.5
Post: 5.3

She said these are great numbers, and there is a possibility her cortisol may have been lower in the last week or so, but went up a bit since she was off the trilo. She recommends we wait another week to restart her trilo or even wait for returning symptoms, and we should restart at 10mg daily, as she feels Princess seems to be very sensitive.

Any comments are always welcome.

Thanks to all again for watching out for my girl.

Xo Jeanette

[Harley PoMMom]

With Princess's sensitivity to Trilostane added with her not drinking and eating right, I agree with your IMS about not restarting the Trilostane until symptoms occur.

Sending huge and loving hugs,
Lori

[mypuppy]

Hi Lori,

I couldn't agree more with you and my IMS, however I am quite confused why I should even consider giving trilo to Princess ever again knowing she is sensitive to it. I just don't get that at all? I'm scared what if one day she will really hit rock bottom? obviously these are concerns I need to address with my IMS, but unfortunately I know I am stuck there because I know the only other option is to switch Princess to Lyso, and my IMS does not support or treat with lyso.

Princess is finally eating, but not drinking as much. I guess we are off on another trilo break, if it's 5 months again or more, Id be happy with that:). Here we go again.....

Much love to you, Bear and the kitty.

Xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

My ims said she doenst want to put penny back on trilo because how sensitive to it - but yeah i am nervous about the lyso too- right now she is staying on the holiday till the other tests are done - princess can enjoy her holiday for now - especially since she isnt having the cush symptoms - enjoy it:)

[addy]

Hope your Trilo holiday is going well and Princess is still eating. That has to be so hard when they won't eat.

Thinking of you and hoping the snow is all melted without causing floods!!!!!!!!! Hopefully another 20 incher won't happen anytime soon:rolleyes::rolleyes:;););)

Zoe goes for her stim tomorrow and I have a whole big list of issues to discuss with IMS. We still don't have a big sigh icon!!!!!:mad:

I think we should pester John to see if he can update our icons. We need a dancing mama, hearts, big sign icon, hmmmmmm and a conga line:D:D:D:D:D

So John, if you are reading this, PULLEEZZEEEEEEE??????:p

Hugs to you and Princess,
love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Princess's trilo mini break is going well dear friends. She is drinking and eating normal. The only thing I have noticed is some hind leg weakness. I don't know if it's because the girls are constantly having her jump on their beds and couch, or showing signs of arthritis or muscle wasting?

I don't know if I should be giving her anything for pain or antiflammatory to help her out? I don't think she's in pain because she is not whining or crying, but not sure if she would even if she was in pain?

other than this we are enjoying ever nano second of this little break, and our perky, playful sweet girl. wish it would last....

Wishing you and your babies warm and tight hugs...

Xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

So glad my friend Princess is enjoying her holiday:D Penny also is enjoying hers - eat and drinking is good but those hind legs are not!!! Keep enjoying those good days!:) xoxo

[addy]

Love to hear about good days for you and Princess:D:D:D:D

Wish this was not so confusing for all of us though. We have tried to keep Zoe from jumping off the bed, she can no longer jump on it. Her hind legs have much less trembling. We don't know if it is from that or her cortisol.:o:o:o

Wanted to tell you I was looking at the side effects of Pepcid on humans and one of them was vomiting:eek::eek::eek: I think I better research that some more so don't freak out:D:D:D;);) Also read that it could affect humans absorb some medications more (stronger not less).

Addy's on the case:cool::cool::cool::cool:

love to you:D

[mypuppy]

Hi Addy,

So true....this gets more and more confusing each time:confused:
I have never seen Princess experience the leg trembling your Zoe gets, poor Zoe:(. Within the last week or so, I have noticed just the hind leg weakness. She struggles to stand up, jump and lay down. This is where the confusing :confused: part kicks in. Is it due to low cortisol ( that's what I recall on the forum or maybe I read it wrong?), is it arthritis? I brought it to ims attention, and she does not want to put her on any arthritis medication (why not :confused:), but said we can use tramadol for pain, if any.?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????

Interesting on the pepcid, and again coincidentally Princess seems to have gotten sick on it each time I would give to her, which was not on a regular basis. You are too diligent with your research:rolleyes:. You're goooood.....thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Now please go take a breather from all this...I should take my own advice...

take care of you...xo Jeanette

Ps. How is mom?

[jrepac]

I used to deal with front leg trembling from time to time; hard to say for sure what was driving it, as you point out; muscle weakness or cortisol levels? I think I just had to accept that my baby's jumping days were over and it was time for regular use of doggy stairs in multiple places :)

Now, my new Aussie pup, has these gigantic hind legs (seriously)...she is a jumping and leaping machine.... and just scares me to death when she leaps off the back of my sofa!:D


Jeff, Angel Mandy and the Girls

[mypuppy]

Hello Friends,

I think we can all use a breath of fresh air from time to time, and what better way than with the power of pictures of our precious babies. As such, I have uploaded a new album of my Princess for your sheer enjoyment....

Love and tight ones to you all and your loved babies, here or those RIP...

God Bless you all....xo Jeanette and my baby girl and family...:)

PS: Very Important Date: November 21st, the Princess's 9th Bday. :p

[Cyn719]

Looked at your new pic!! Love them!!!! I left you a few comments!!

Wow we have something else in common girlfriend - our babies are November babies!!!!! Pennys 12th birthday is the 16th - xoxoxo

[mypuppy]

Jeff,
So great to hear from you after so long. I must agree with you in that with our senior/cushdogs we need to limit their exercise level, specially the jumping. who'd ever thought. As your Aussie pup, I remember my Princess's puppy jumping days all to well. She'd jump anything and anyone. So hard to see them slowed down when we know they truly want to go, go, go..:(

Sounds like you have your hands full, but it's always fun..Enjoy, I know you will.

Warmest regards to you and your babies..
Xo Jeanette and Princess

[jrepac]

Aw, such sweet pictures! Just want to give her a big hug!:)

Jeff, Angel Mandy & the Gang

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette and Princess,

HAPPY 9TH BIRTHDAY PRINCESS!
Hoping you all have a great day together and wishing Princess the best birthday ever with lots of treats and cuddles.
Love the new pictures.

Love,
Linda and Brin xxx

[addy]

Princess?????:D:D:D

Birthday????:D:D:D

Nine????:D:D:D

Happy Birthday Princess

May your day be filled with bones, treats, play and hugs

love,
addy, zoe and koko

[Harley PoMMom]

HAPPY 9TH BIRTHDAY PRINCESS!

Sending lots of hugs and love!

[labblab]

HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY BIRTHDAY FROM US, TOO!!!!!

:) :p :D :) :p :D :) :p :D :) :p :D :) :p :D :) :p :D :)

Marianne, Peg and Luna :) :) :)

[Squirt's Mom]

Happy Birthday, Sweet Princess!!!

[Cyn719]

HAPPY 9TH BIRTHDAY BEAUTIFUL PRINCESS!!!!!!

Have treats - lay around - relax - have your sisters give you lots of belly rubs - hey just get treated like a QUEEN!!:D:D

Sending you kisses and hugs and belly rubs!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love you!!

Aunite Cindy and Cousin Penny Pooh!!! xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

[Skye]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY PRINCESS!!!!!! wishing you a day packed full of snuggles, love, kisses, nappy naps,!!!!! whootwhoot!!!!

[Rebelsmom]

Happy Birthday Princess.. Lots of love from us!

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I hope Princess had a great birthday!

[mypuppy]

Dear friends and furbabies,
Thank you from the bottom of our hearts for all your sweet birthday wishes and hugs and belly rubs, etc., etc. We surely had a fun-filled, happy day, and are now relaxing in our cozy bed together. We love you all soo very much, and of course wanted to share this joyous day with all of you, therefore, we have uploaded yet another album. As always, we hope you enjoy it and puts a BIG SMILE :) on all your faces....:):D:p

xo Princess and Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Dear precious, precious k9 family,

Today I find myself posting with very mixed emotions. A day to be thankful for all our wonderful blessings, but a day which also emphasizes those beautiful blessings who are no longer here with us. We know who they are. To those special friends, my guilt is much knowing that I am still blessed with the life of my precious Princess, and only wish that were the case with you. I am so very sorry for the deep pain this day brings you, and pray that on the many thanksgivings to come your pain will be lessened by the memory of your dear fur baby.

I give thanks today for every single one of you and your amazing babies who have enriched my life with so much love, care and concern. I give thanks for having my sweet girl 2 years after her dx even though I was given a 2 year life expectancy with this dratted condition. I give thanks to each of you for helping me fight those odds and giving me my baby's life during these long 2 years.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I love you more than words can ever say....

Xo Jeanette and Princess. (turkey anyone:D)

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,

Happy Thanksgiving to you and all on the K9 site. I second everything you said, I wish none of us had to go through that heartache and you shouldn't feel any guilt. I am sure that Princess will have many more years to enjoy with your family.

Now, where's that turkey, we have to wait until Christmas over here but I will raise a glass of wine to you tonight!

Love,
Linda xx

[Franklin'sMum]

My dear friend,

Thank you, for your love, knowledge and support that you have so very kindly shared with us. Jeanette, you are a wonderful lady, and you mean so much to me, and to many others here.

Please pass along my apologies to Princess, and wish her a belated happy 9th birthday for me and Franklin.

Love and hugs,
Jane, Franklin and Angel Bailey xxx

[mypuppy]

My dearest Jane,

how very kind of you to always pop in on me and my girl. Always wonderful to hear from my great friends and their babies. Hope the sweet face is doing nicely, and please kiss that button nose of his from auntie Jeanette, and take a tight hug for yourself.

You and Franklin mean the world to us also, and we love ya.

Xo Jeanette and Princess

[Cyn719]

Ciao/Hola


Merry Christmas to you Princess and the Family!!

Talk to you soon!!!!

Love and hugs!!!!

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

Hoping you are having a very merry Christmas and that Princess is being hugely spoiled:D:D:D:D:D

Zoe had her bully stick this morning and is now napping with her Daddy. They are so cute, I wish i could take a pix but the flash will wake them both up.

Happy Holidays!!!!!!!

love,
addy, zoe and koko

[mypuppy]

Dearest Addy, Cindy and all my K9 family and babies,

Thank you so kindly. We are certainly having a wonderful Christmas together, and of course the Princess is being spoiled rotten...Santa was very good to her as she has been a good girl all year...haaaaaaa.:D I hope you and all your babies are having the same kind of day.

Merriest Christmas to all and a blessed and healthy 2012 for all our precious pups, moms, dads and siblings....

I love you all dearly.

Tight hugs...xo Jeanette, Princess and family

[mypuppy]

Hello friends,

Hope you and your babies had a healthy and peaceful holiday season. Thought of each and everyone of you and your pups, here or at the Rainbow Bridge and lit a candle on behalf of all our precious furbutts and mommies and daddies.

As always, sharing some more wonderful memories of our sweet girl's 9th Christmas with us...Enjoy my newst album....

Love you all...xo Jeanette

[Skye]

Hello!!!!!! stopping by to embrace you both and let you know your being thought of.
hope all is going well, and that you will both bring in the new year happily and safely and with great health!
love and hugs

[addy]

Hi Jeanette and Princess,

Thanks for stopping by our thread and thinking about us. I hope the New Year brings you only good, happy things.

Zoe seems a bit better but I think we will have a new problem with her paws as the roads are filled with salt. We don't have sidewalks so if we want to walk, it is in the road which means more wiping of her paws which she really does not like:o

Have a wonderful week!!!! Let see, this time of year I start counting the days until daylight saving time returns:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Happy Days!!!

love,
addy

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

I was wondering what happened with your friend's dog. Did she try the spray? It helped Marianne's Peg's hot spots. I think Mary Beth was the first one to tell us about it. She had tried everything for Alivia and then stumbled on the Benadryl spray. I want to go and look for different socks for Zoe tomorrow and then try it on her foot.


Also I hope you and Princess are doing well.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Hi Addy,

I don't think my friend has purchased the benadryl spray yet. Unfortunately, she has had some emergency health concerns of her own which need to be addressed. If and when she gets around to using it I will try to ask her again.

As for me, I'm good while on coffee, and Princess's cushings is as Marianne has phrased it before "rearing it's ugly head" again...:mad: She's waking twice per night to be let out, and is scrounging 24/7:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: but I guess we are used to this by now. Thanks for always asking and so much sweet concern on your part. Same goes for you and sweet Zoe.

I love ya both. xo Jeanette and my girl

P.s. So who invented the Neti Pot? haaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Rebelsmom]

I think some weirdo invented in Jeanette! Lol

Sorry about Princess' cushings symptoms coming back, hope you can find a dose she will do well on.

[addy]

I hear you about the looking for food 24/7. Zoe is too and I don't know if is because I kept giving her treats to distract her from chewing herself or if it is her Cushings.:o:confused::rolleyes:

One day at a time, Jeanette, for both of us.:):):):):)

If we can keep our sense of humor going, it is half the battle I think:D

Have wonderful week!!!!!

love,
addy

[Cyn719]

Hi girlfriend --

sending you lots of love and hugsssssss xoxoxoxoxoxo:)

[mypuppy]

Awwww, thanx to all my gals, Addy, Cindy and Melissa, etc.,

Yes, one day at a time with not just cushings but everything else as well. Sometimes, humor is the one thing I find that gets me through my day, and again, coffee, lots of caffeinated coffee. Melissa LOL, only a weirdo would have invented such an awkward technique, but I wish I would have been that weirdo cause I'd be pretty well off right now to pay for all the cushings bills, heck I'd be scheduling extra stims if that were the case..:D Nice to dream once in a while, no?

Luv ya ladies, every single one of you.:)

xo Jeanette

[clydetheboosmom]

Jeanette -

I miss you!!

Sending you lots of hugs!

XOXOXOX

Lynne

[mypuppy]

Oh Lynne,

How very sweet of you, and how great to get such a loving post from you on our thread. You made my day really. I miss you too and think of you more often than you think. I always wonder how you are doing, and would love to know you are ok now.

Thanks so much for your post. Means the world.

How about some of those tight hugs....xo

Luv ya, Jeanette

[addy]

Giving a shout out to Jeanette and Princess!!!!!:D:D:D:D

I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

Thinking of you both and sending hugs and love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Awww Addy,

You are just the sweetest thing. Princess and I are shouting right back at ya and precious Zoe. And you both have a wonderful weekend as well. We are getting ready for snow tonight into tomorrow...:eek: Not that white stuff again...ughhhhhhhhh....:D

Love ya dearly....xo Jeanette and my girl

[Cyn719]

stock up on hot choc - coffee - some good movies - shovels - choco vino and lots of food for Princess:D awwww sorry the symptoms are back- i get the twice a night - Penny does it every night - the UTI - habit - weak bladder -dont know what her issue is but its cold at 3am! stay warm my friend - lets see how much of this white stuff we get!!!!
love and hugssss xoxo

[Rebelsmom]

Ummm I'm just gonna throw this out there it's bee 80 here this weekend! :D

[mypuppy]

You stink Melissa:D....11 here today and snow on ground:mad:

Enjoy your heatwave while the rest of your friends freeze their butts off....haaaaaaaaaaa.....:D

Luv ya...Jeanette

[addy]

80?!!!! Well, lets see:

you get to walk around in shorts while we look for snow pants.;)

you get to wear cute sandals while we wear snow boots;)

you get to drink cute girly drinks with edible flowers while we sip hot cocoa:)

you can drive a convertible with the top down while our cars slid on ice:eek:

you get to play on the beach while we play in the snow:rolleyes:

Okay, now why do I live in Wisconsin????:D:D:D:D:D:D

Can anyone remind me?:confused::confused::confused::confused:


ARRRRRRGGGG!!!! :D:D:D:D And we can't even sing "Here comes Summer" yet.

Enjoy your weekend !!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

not exactly a winter enthusiast addy

[mypuppy]

LMBUTTO Addy,

So well put, and had a good laugh with it...:D

I too wonder many a times what the heck I'm doing in New York, when I could be on a beach right now having one of those girly drinks with umbrellas in them:D. BTW, the Arrrrrrgggggg reminds me of a very old grammar school Popeye joke: what kind of oil does Popeye like? OLIVE OIL, ahaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaa aahaaaaaaaaa (in Popeye laugh)....LOL.

Stay warm, and so will I.

xo Jeanette

[Rebelsmom]

The beach was nice this weekend. I just wish it would stay this way, but I'm not holding my breathe!

[Cyn719]

Just wanted to check in - hows it going today??

Frustrated with this little girl - I crushed her Previcox over her food and she ate a few bites - uggg so now she didnt get her pill -- which she needs - I just asked Ladys mom how she gives it -- Shes out nice day - not as nice as yesterday - princess waiting for a walk??

talk soon love and hugs xoxo

[mypuppy]

Cindy,

Ugh is right. Not easy at times, specially when we just need them to take their dang meds. I've read here many different ways our members have gotten those pills into their smart furbuttls. Inside a little cream cheese, or peanut butter, inside meatloaf or a meatball. Those are the ones that stuck out for me. Of course, with Princess I just have to roll it inside a piece of that slice of chicken or ham, and she sucks it right up, doesnt even chew. All dogs are different, and since Penny is just giving you hard time eating altogether, maybe even these wont work. Don't know for sure until you try right?
On a much lighter note, yes, my girl went for her daily walk today. It was too nice not to, and I believe we are expecting a lot or rain tomorrow so she will be cooped up. We also played and ran in the yard for a little bit and fetched balls and sticks. Happy camper. LOL.

Wish your girl starts feeling better soon.

Talk soon. xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Good glad you both enjoyed the nice weather - yup thats what I am doing now - putting pill in the meat like roast beef and chicken breast - I give it to her then hand her a piece of the meat with nothing in it quicking to she will swallow it fast - lol ugg rain tomorrow -checking our weather now - 42 tomorrow AM rain on Friday - Penny will have to get alot of fresh air tomorrow:D

hugssss xoxo

[Squirt's Mom]

Just dropping by to hug your sweet neck and pet that soft, brown belly (uh, that would be Princess'...unless there is something you would like to share with us???? :p).

[mypuppy]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:D

Oh Leslie,

That was great! Really made me LMbuttO... However, I must admit I think I was once told I had a soft belly (TMI), so for a second I thought you were talking to me. haaaaaaaaa.....

Thanks for the laugh and for thinking of me and my girl (she has rebounded, but we knew she would, stim in February). Please kiss and hug, and pet and love those babies up on our behalf, and sending you some very tight loving hugs as well..

I love ya...xo Jeanette and the Princess

[Rebelsmom]

Dropping by to say hi from not so sunny but still warm Fl :D

Anymore more surprise guests in your backyard?

[mypuppy]

Well dropping by to say hello from NEVER sunny, bum sticks, New York.

I always have surprise visitors in my yard, deer, bears, fox, turkeys, turtles, snakes, coyote. Did I miss anything? oh yeah, stray cats (bad cat owners). Heard we had sightings of mountain lions, but havent seen that one yet, and don't want to either. :eek: YIKES....

Love to you, Rebel, Sadie and James. heeee..:D

[Rebelsmom]

I had 3 turkeys in my yard the other day, luckily I saw them split second before I opened the door to let them out. That could have been bad seems how Sadie almost caught a momma turkey one day and Rebel had the chicks pinned against a fence batting one on the head everytime it tried to stand back up!! He never bit it, just kept patting his head until he was told to stop then he just stood there looking at it..

[Cyn719]

Hi no sun here and its raw and 39 suppose to rain all day her tomorrow - at least we have a few good days enough to get rid of the snow!!:D xo

kiss and hug to Princess xo

[Cyn719]

Hi. How did princess do at the vet? When will you get the ACTH results?? Ttys Girlfriend:):). Xo

[mypuppy]

Hi Cindy,

Princess's stim went well, thank you for asking. My IMS is out on Fridays, but I always call anyway and demand for another IMS to read me the pre and post, so I will be calling tomorrow for those and will post them as soon as I get them. Princess seems a bit tuckered out from the long ride and wait and poking today. Maybe she will sleep right through tonight so mommy can get some rest also. I have a terrible cold, cough, congestion and achy...ugh...Calgon, take me away...

Nite nite to you and Penny, how cute she was today wanting to get on her big brother's bed...precious...

Luv ya. Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Feel better girlfriend. Talk tomorrow:). Nite so

[mypuppy]

Hello again to all my friends,

As in the past, it is my pleasure to share with you Princess's ACTH results of yesterday. Back up IMS says they look great, and we should keep her on the 10mg daily. My only problem with that is that her symptoms are worse by the evening hours, so mommy's not getting any sleep:(, but looks like my body's adjusting somewhat or my nerves are just dead:D IMS wants to retest in a month--they really must believe we have money trees planted in our yards, huh!

Pre: 4.4
Post: 7.8

For those who can recall Princess's history, we know she has done way better with a lower Post, so we shall see how much further the 10mg takes her.

Warmest regards to all my special friends and puppers.

I hold you all very close to my heart.

xo Jeanette and Princess

[labblab]

Jeanette, I totally missed seeing that you had started Princess back on the trilo! How long has she been back on the 10 mg.? And I can't remember what dose she was taking before she started her "break" during the fall...

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Marianne hi,

I think the only reason you missed it is because I never posted that she had restarted, I sorry! :(

So let me backtrack for you briefly:

July 12: - started her on 10mg BID
October 28: stopped Vetoryl after upset stomach problems
November 5: ACTH: Post 5.3 (stopped Vetoryl until symptoms rebound)

December 17: restarted Vetoryl 10mg daily to present

This is it for now.

Regards. J.

[labblab]

Jeanette, I just glanced back through your thread and it looks like Princess was back on the trilo for approx. a week before the Nov. ACTH test (post-ACTH: 5.3)? But I couldn't tell whether she had been dosed once or twice daily during that time. Do you remember?

My two cents worth :o: if Princess has been on the same dose for two months now and her post-ACTH is still up at 7.8, I wouldn't expect to see much more downward movement -- and I'm not sure why the IMS would want to perform another stim in 30 days without having made any dosing change. Aside from the stomach issues that prompted you to stop the trilo in October, was Princess having any other problems while taking the 10 mg. twice daily? Had her Cushing's symptoms pretty much resolved on that dose?

If so, I'd be inclined to want to try the twice daily dosing again in order to see if you can't get more consistent symptom relief. I don't think the vets ever did figure out what was causing the stomach issues, and they might not have been related to the trilo at all. So at this point, after two months at 10 mg. once daily, you're got a high ACTH and a dog who is symptomatic and keeping her mommy up at night :( :(.

You say this is the backup IMS who you spoke with? I don't think a post-ACTH of 7.8 and a symptomatic dog constitutes a "great" result :o. Can you talk to the regular IMS and see if she is as satisfied with the situation? What would you think, yourself, about trying twice daily dosing again?

Marianne

[Cyn719]

Hi girlfriend

Sorry Princess is still having symptoms and keeping you up at night but maybe if the 7.8 came down just a bit she would do better. I know the lowest does is adding 10 mg but 5 mg would be nice - I know how you feel about raising the dose - (5 mg you would have to get compounded) Its never easy hang in there:)

Love and hugs xoxo

[mypuppy]

Hi Marianne,

I will backtrack even more so everything makes for sense for you. I know how hard it is to go back within the forum. Thank God I keep my own notes.
June 2: ACTH Post 13
June 7: Started her on 20mg once daily
July 7: ACTH Post 6.7
July 12: STARTED 10MG BID
October 28: STOPPED ALL VETORYL
November 5: ACTH Post 5.3
December 17: symptoms were full blown - RESTARTED 10MG once daily

I was quite disappointed that she had this set back since yes, she was doing great on the 10mg BID (even sleeping through the night without interruption:)) . Then she had the stomach issues with slight vomitting and diarrhea. We never did find out the cause for her stomach upset, but IMS thought it was best to stop Vetoryl until symptoms returned just to be sure.

As for rechecking in one month, I agree with you, Why, when we are not changing dose? That issue I will discuss with my reg. IMS next week. Right now, I would love to go back to twice daily dosing in the hope she will do fine again with it without the same problems recurring. I won't know until I try, right? What do you think about Cindy's suggestion (10mg am and 5mg pm)?

Thanks again for your great comments.

Luv ya...XO Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Thank you Cindy,

As Ive said many a times here, this is the worst part of this whole treatment process. I just don't get why I can't keep my girl stabilized on just one dose for a long while. Always up and down with her. It is extremely frustrating and expensive:eek: I'm all tapped out. Looking for some evening shift positions just to help pay for vet bills at this point. Hope something pops up. Oh, and thank you for the dosing suggestion. I will discuss with my IMS next week.

Hope all is well on your end. Please let me know how your girl is doing and cousin as well.

Luv ya..xo Jeanette

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

I understand your frustration. I thought trying 5mgs in the evening was a good idea. That is my next step with Zoe if I keep her on the Trilostane. Have you looked at the new Dechra bulletin? You probably have but I have the link just in case.

http://www.dechra-us.com/Files/dechraUSA/downloads/Case%20Studies/Clinicians%20Brief-trilostane.pdf

Hope you get some sleep.
love,
addy

[labblab]

Jeanette, as far as adding 5 or 10 mg. at night, I think arguments could be made either way. I think you are using brandname Vetoryl, are you not? The most gradual easing would indeed be adding 5 mg. But I'm just a little more uneasy about compounded trilo than are many others here. A recent study revealed there was significant dosage variation among several compounded products that were SUPPOSED to be all the same, including variations among different batches from the same compounder (the identities of the compounding pharmacies were not disclosed). When there is no question but that a compounded dosage is needed or that an owner cannot afford brandname trilo, then I'm still onboard as far as going the compounded route. But if a Vetoryl dosage will work, I'd personally rather stick with it for a dog of my own, especially if I wanted to feel certain of the exact dosage that my dog was receiving due to a history of drug sensitivity. Even when Vetoryl is used as the basis for repackaged capsules, I just don't know whether there is still a greater risk for dosage variability or not.

The reason why I'd consider resuming the 10 mg. at night is because apparently Princess did well on a 20 mg. daily total for about five months (most of the time on 10 mg. twice daily) with her symptoms resolved, and it's unknown whether the GI issues even had anything at all to do with the trilo. It's true that her November ACTH of 5.3 came after a week's break from the trilo, so presumably it would have been lower while on the med. But how much lower? We don't know.

Bottom line -- if Vetoryl came in a 5 mg. dosage, it would probably make sense to first start back with that to see if Princess' symptoms resolve. But in the alternative, I guess I'd opt to add back the 10 mg. Vetoryl at night rather than getting a 5 mg. compounded product. But that is totally my own personal opinion. And regardless, I'd definitely talk to your IMS about starting back with an evening dose of some sort in order to give you guys some relief. She may think that a compounded 5 mg. product is a better route to go.

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Marianne,

You know I have always valued and highly respected your personal opinions, and will continue to do so. Princess has always been on the brand name Vetoryl, and as you, I feel more comfortable staying with the brand name against compounded for the reasons you mentioned. In fact, I was given the same information by a Dechra tech. a while ago when I had called to inquire about compounding. At the same time, I know there are plenty of other members here who have had great results with compounding, so who knows sometimes? Adding a 5mg would be ideal I think to start out slowly, but even if that were the path I would want to take, as you, my IMS does not support compounding of Vetoryl, so I wouldn't have a choice but to go 10mg BID again.

I certainly will let you know which way we will go.

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Thanks my friend Addy,

Yes, sleep, sleep, sleep would be better than winning the lottery right now...:eek: Did I just say that.....?:eek: LOL.

5mg would be ideal, but my IMS does not support compounding, so I'm pretty much stuck. What a poopshoot with all this. Ugh! I'm hoping Dechra will soon come out with a 5mg, and that perhaps would solve a lot of my problems.

Thanks for the insert. I had not seen it. Ya think my IMS would have had the courtesy of handing me one, since apparently, according to my backup IMS, she is the "Vetoryl expert"....well then share the wealth will ya...LOL..

Take care of you and Zoe.

Luv ya, Jeanette.

[Cyn719]

I agree with Marianne

I thought adding the 5mg would be a safe baby step way of approaching it (you know me I am so nervous with the meds cause my vet did the extreme and we know where that went)....BUT after reading what Marianne said about the compound I would definitely stay with the Vetoryl!! So if your vet is on board add the 10 mg at night and just stay on top of the testing --- you are with her all the time so you will know if her levels are dropping to much for sure----I know you are nervous to add more meds but she may need that to do the trick --- will be here for you girlfriend!!!!!!!!!! :)

hugssss xoxoxox

[lulusmom]

Hi Jeanette,

I agree with Marianne and in Princess' case, I would also prefer to stick with Vetoryl; however, I don't want opinions about compounded Trilostane to cause panic with members about using other compounded meds for their dogs. As an owner and rescuer of tiny toy breeds, I'd be hard pressed to treat my dogs without the availability of compounded drugs from a reputable compounding pharmacy, like Diamondback Drugs and a few other pharmacies used by our members. My dogs and hundred of shelter dogs I've rescued don't have an alternative for many drugs, whether approved or used off lable, including the Lysodren and Trilostane I've used for Lulu and Jojo.

If 5mg is what you feel comfortable with, you don't have to be worried about a compounder using bulk drugs. Ask your IMS to have an available Vetoryl dose repacked into 5mg capsules. I don't believe she should have a problem with that. I doubt that your vet is against all compounded drugs because they are necessary in veterinary community. My counter top is littered with them. :D

[labblab]

Hi Jeanette,

I agree with Marianne and in Princess' case, I would also prefer to stick with Vetoryl; however, I don't want opinions about compounded Trilostane to cause panic with members about using other compounded meds for their dogs. As an owner and rescuer of tiny toy breeds, I'd be hard pressed to treat my dogs without the availability of compounded drugs from a reputable compounding pharmacy, like Diamondback Drugs and a few other pharmacies used by our members. My dogs and hundred of shelter dogs I've rescued don't have an alternative for many drugs, whether approved or used off lable, including the Lysodren and Trilostane I've used for Lulu and Jojo.

If 5mg is what you feel comfortable with, you don't have to be worried about a compounder using bulk drugs. Ask your IMS to have an available Vetoryl dose repacked into 5mg capsules. I don't believe she should have a problem with that. I doubt that your vet is against all compounded drugs because they are necessary in veterinary community. My counter top is littered with them. :D

I absolutely don't want to cause panic, either, and surely hope that what I wrote previously won't do so! I know we've had many members here who have reported very stable, therapeutic results from compounded meds. And for sure, if a person or a dog needs medication in a form or a dose that is not otherwise available, then compounding is a necessity and a life-saver. But I do think that any time a drug is manipulated or altered (even repacking brandname drugs), you're introducing an additional opportunity for potential problems such as calculation errors or changes in effectiveness. If there's no dosing alternative, then by all means, that's the route to go. And I will also continue to routinely advise people to see if they can have existing capsules repackaged if they're going to be stuck with a bunch of unusable, expensive meds. But especially for a dog like Princess who has had so many dosing issues, when I could, I'd just want to minimize as many variables as possible.

[mypuppy]

Glynda and Marianne,

I am sorry it seems as if my issues with dosing has caused a little bit of tension. Last thing I want is any confusion amongst our members on their personal choice of meds, but I do believe ALL opinions are justified in accordance to one's personal experience or research. So please everyone, no worries, please...

Luv you both,

xo Jeanette

[labblab]

Yikes, Jeanette, there is absolutely nothing for you to feel sorry about!!!! If anything, it's Glynda and me who hijacked your thread! ;)

The important thing is just for you to talk to your IMS about the best plan for getting Princess some relief, no matter what the plan turns out to be.

[lvasilio]

Just getting up to speed on your pup. I just started with a compounded Veteroyl from what I feel is a reputable local pharmacy. My Jake is on 15mgs twice a day and we are at day 30 and he seems to be tolerating it well. I am not really commenting on compounding, as i respect there are many issues with his. It's worked, so far, d=for me so we are happy. But I am curious about the stomach issues. Jake started to have stomach issues even before he was diagnoses with Cushings. I read all the posts and decided he may have developed an issue with the amount of fat in his diet, and/or developed a food allergy so I switched him over to Blue Buffalo fish and sweet potato dry with a dollop of moist mixed in to make it more palatable. He loves it AND more importantly his stomach has settled considerably. I have to wonder if even though there is no indication there is a pancreas issue whether this disease causes overall stomach issues.
My vet did decide it was better to start with the twice a day dose so as not to load on one end and possibly cause an adverse reaction. Though it can be a problem when you live alone I have to agree. It's a more sustained lower dose.
I certainly hope you can find some positive ground for your pup and hopefully get some peace back in your life as well
Lesley and jake

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,
I think I would also resume the 10mg at night. Princess was doing really well on that dose and the stomach issues may have been a separate issue. Like Spicey, Princess never had any stomach issues or other signs on the other occasions when her ACTH results were very low. Like I've said before, who's to say some dogs don't cope better at those levels and if all else fails you can always stop it again!

Love to all,
Linda xx

[addy]

I'm glad we have these discussions. I think they are always helpful:):)

I don't have a choice with Zoe. I have to be careful not to throw her into a colitis/ IBD flare. I actually did 10 mgs Veotryl and 5 mgs compounded together as one dose when she was on 15mgs rather than jump to 20mgs back then. Ended up at 20mgs anyway after that but at least we had minor poo problems.

Friends call her my million dollar dog:eek: Maybe they really aren't my friends:rolleyes:;) Hubby said he will have to work until he is 90.:D:D:D:D:D:D

Bottom line is whatever you and your vet feel comfortable with for Princess:):):):):):):).

I hope you are not sick any more. Winter colds are the worst. It is freezing cold in Milwaukee and we are not used to it at all, the winter had been so mild until now. I hope the cold is not headed your way.

love and hugs,
addy

[mypuppy]

Someone, anyone, please help me out here. :mad:

I am at my wits end with my IMS. Just spoke to her regarding Princess's stim results, and argued back and forth with each other on why Princess is still symptomatic, and it is NOT due to diabetes insipidus but due to high cortisol. OMG:eek: This woman wants me to use my girl as a guinea pig AGAIN, and start her on desmopressin injections AGAIN. In addition, she refuses to make a dose increase without another stim in a month, and basically suggested I find another vet that could perhaps monitor her stims. Are you kidding me now. I am simply disgusted with the whole situation right now. Sorry for the venting session, you're all I've got right now my friends...I'm crying at the situation and the fact that my hands are tied with this person who claims to care for my dog. Sorry again. This too shall pass, I hope...

xo Jeanette

[Harley PoMMom]

Oh Jeanette,

I am so sorry to hear that your IMS is not listening to you and not working with you.

With a post of 7.8 ug/dl plus Princess being symptomatic, this is definitely a reason for a dosage increase.

If Princess's symptoms are worse in the evening, I wonder if your IMS would consider having an UC:CR done.

Sending huge consoling and loving hugs, Lori

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,
What a drip (you know what I mean!). I don't know if I'm going to be able to offer any real advice but just wanted to offer my support. I don't know anything about Diabetes Insipidus but from my limited knowledge I don't think that is what Princess has. I can't believe she won't agree to a small dose increase, I think it's a power game she's playing. Is there any way you can get a new IMS or vet or are you stuck with this one? Please don't make yourself too upset about this situation, I am sure someone will be along to give you some better advice later. You know we are all on your side. Hugs to you and Princess.
Love, Linda xx

[labblab]

Jeanette, even if there are no other specialists in your area, I would think at this point that a GP vet who is willing to work with you would be preferable over your current arrangement. I know you have felt for a long time as though your relationship with this IMS has not been good. Do you have any options at all? Her recommendations in this situation do not make any sense at all to me...:(

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Thank you Linda, Lori and Marianne,

Lori,
Yes, you nailed it, "NEVER" been willing to "WORK" with me or value my opinions let alone listen to them. I am ashamed and not very prouf of myself for accepting to suck up all her garbage, but only because SHE IS ALL I"VE GOT at this point merely for the stims and the meds.

Marianne,
I do agree with you, but the gp's in my area are not cushings knowledgable at all. I had called around a while back to find out if I can make the switch, and asked about the acth, and they didn't even know how to perform one, so on that note, I stuck it out.

Linda,
Thanks for your support, means a lot. I wish the situation were different. Right now I am just praying for Princess to resolve somehow on the 10mg. Otherwise, wait it out and get no sleep for a few more months until we can increase the dose.

Thanks again for listening my friends, really. Just having one of those moments, but I must keep positive things will work out to Princess's advantage, but WITHOUT desmopressin shots.::mad:

Love to all...xo Jeanette

[4Vicki]

Jeanette: I think your Lab is beautiful!!!!!!!!:D

I don't have a Lab w/Cushings & you know I don't know diddly about the disease itself but I have had a lot of experience w/vets...........

Find another one, period.

I was seeing a vet a few yrs ago that would never listen to me, she always knew so much more than I did. Granted, medically speaking, she does.........but when I had something to say about what was going on, she would interrupt me & blow me off. I'd walk out of her office beyond angry.........

This was the last straw: I brought Hannah in w/a bright red belly.........I thought she had plopped down on grass in a public park that had been treated w/something harsh & it burned her skin. She has allergies (grass included) & very sensitive skin. She about laughed at this suggestion & then went on to treat her for everything you can think of plus a skin biopsy (costing me close to $400, money I did not have). I decided to use pure aloe on her belly because everything she prescribed was making it worse. Then came the day when her skin got all scaly & started to peel (as it would do if she had a burn). I can't describe my anger at this point. I called her office & left a very simple message: that Hannah's skin was peeling on her belly as it would be if she had burned her skin. That was the last they ever heard of me.

You know your dog better than any vet does. Don't argue w/her, find another vet who will listen to you & work w/you, not against you.

Sorry, but I've been there & I know how frustrating that is.....:eek:

[addy]

Jeanette can you fax her the new Dechra updates? Would that help at all?

I'm sorry you are having this happen. I went through it last month with Zoe's IMS and I felt so betrayed.

Vent all you want, it is good to get it all out. I'm still mad at Zoe's IMS and that was a month ago:mad::mad::mad:

love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Hi 4Vicki,

Princess and I thank you for the compliment and words of wisdom. I'm sorry for what your vet did to your Hannah because she couldn't look beyond her ego. Unbelievable! :mad: Mine is all ego as well. It is frustrating to no end, but as I said earlier I have not been able to find a competent gp in my area or the surrounding one, and the closests IMS to me is this one, and that is already an hour away, each way.

Thanks again for your comments. I appreciate them.

Tight hugs. xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Oh Addy,

Thank you for stopping by with your valuable suggestions. Unfortunately, I made the very same one during our conversation and she had "NO" comment--DEAD SILENCE...:mad: Of course, God forbid I'd get the upperhand there. Ugh..

Don't worry, I will figure this out.

Thanks again and I love ya...xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi Leslie,

Im sorry I didn't thank you for your last post, and sharing your opinions. That's the beauty of this forum. I appreciate your feedback, and I as well pray and hope your boy continues on the same path with his treatment. As for my girl, this is just one of those downs for us, but hopefully we will get her back on track as well.

Thank you and tight hugs to you and your baby.

xo Jeanette and Princess

[Harley PoMMom]

Marianne,
I do agree with you, but the gp's in my area are not cushings knowledgable at all.



Jeanette,

Even if the GP's are not that knowledgable about Cushing's, testing, etc...YOU are!!!! And the way it sounds to me, You even know a heck a lot more than your current IMS!! And you do have us to help and to support you. ;):D

Love and hugs,
Lori

[mypuppy]

Awww Lori,

You're too sweet really, but I don't feel competent or comfortable enough to even attempt to guide a gp who is not cushings savy at the risk of my girl's health. I know my IMS is competent, but her rudeness and lack of manners just get in the way of that. I do have a lot of homework and searching to do so we shall see where that gets me.

Thanks again for your support.. I love ya...

xo Jeanette

ps: kissies to Bear and Alex.

[lulusmom]

Hi Jeanette,

Aren't you close to New York City? If you tell us your approximate location, member(s) may be able to give you a name of a specialist or a cushing's savvy vet within an hour's drive for you.

Hugs,
Glynda

[Rebelsmom]

Jeanette, so sorry you are still having these issues with your IMS. She sounds like a real piece of work. I agree with everyone else and think you should find a vet closer to you that may not have much exp but between what you already know this forum I think you and a new vet could work it out. As long as they can draw blood they can figure out how to run the test if not send them off to a lab that could do it. You know how she should be acting and you know where her numbers should be and you would know if she was dropping too low. I think I would be making some appts and seeing if you could develop a good relationship with another vet who is willing to learn. My vets office as 4 in the practice and when one is unsure of whats going on with Rebel they consult the other and then consulted a Dechra endo for answers. Your IMS needs to get her head out of her a@@ :)

Love ya and Happy Valentines Day!

[4Vicki]

Your IMS needs to get her head out of her a@@ :)

I second that.......:D

[mypuppy]

Glynda hi and thank you,

The only reason I have not resorted to NYC is because I am at the very least betweem 1:30 to 1:45 depending on traffic, and that's on a good day, then you are dealing with NYC traffic and parking. I know these all sound like lousy excuses, but when you have children in school, it is not an option for me to get stuck in the City while they need to be picked up from school. This is why the 1 hour is the most I am willing to travel for now. Thank you though for the suggestion, always appreciate it.

Hope all is well with you and the kids.

Much love...xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Ditto for me Melissa.....:mad:

[Cyn719]

Hi girlfriend

I emailed you. Ive been sick and was late catching up. Damm vets!

Love ya xoxo

[Skye]

have you ever put everything out on the table with the IMS? i did that with one specialist...........i was like okay............do you feel we have a client/doctor friction....i realize not everyone interact smoothly perhaps i am exhibiting a behavior that is being misunderstood from how i meaning to come across?
i dont but i do know it sure stinks when that happens. I felt better when i aired out the laundry

[Truffa's Mom]

Just thinking of you and Princess, sending you enormous waves of potent energy, so you can lay out in front of that piece of work of IMS that you have right now, all the info and knowledge that you have about REALLY treating cushings. The Dechra protocol and all the other tools that you can print ought to be enough to challenge your vet or even better a new GP.

Don't despair, and if you feel that your IMS has never listened to you, then keep your efforts finding another vet, no matter if it is just a GP, competence and heart must always be present in the people we as parents have to choose to treat and take care of our fury babies.

Hugs and kisses to you both.

[mypuppy]

Cindy,
No worries girl, get well, that's all, and yes, dang vets. xo

Skye,
I feel same way as you, try to clear the air kind of attitude. That's me for the most part, but with this one I have tried time and again to get through, but she just won't reason with anything I say. You know the saying "it's like beating a dead horse". Thank you for stoppin bye with your thoughts. xo

Marcela,
OMGosh! How very surprised and happy to see you on. I was worried about ya for a moment and wondered how you've been. Thank you for all your encouraging words. You always manage to make me see things in a different and more positive light. Hope all is well. xo

[lulusmom]

Hey Jeanette, I know we have or had members who live close to NYC who may be able to help you out with a good gp vet or a specialist that you may not be aware of. If you let us know what city you are near, you may just find a replacement for your egomaniacal IMS.

[mypuppy]

Ooops! sorry Glynda,

I am in Warwick, New York. My specialist (if that's what we choose to call her, lol) is located in Paramus, New Jersey. It truly is a shame that due to her rude attitude I am forced to leave--I was pretty happy with the state of the art facility. Oh well.

Thanks again.

Luv ya, Jeanette

[lulusmom]

Hi Jeanette,

I did a little digging and found a few specialists at a specialty facility who sound really great. It's in Fairfield, NJ, 37 miles from Warwick. The two specialists on staff have some pretty impressive credentials, including one who works as a consultant for Antech Diagnostics and has been part of clinical trials for the FDA for the latest medication for cushing's. I believe the latest drug would be Vetoryl. I checked reviews on a few sites and they get very high ratings.

Animal Emergency & Referral Associates
Fairfield, NJ
Drs. Justin H. Straus, DVM, DACVIM and Larry Kantrowitz, DVM, DACVIM
http://www.animalerc.com/patients/ERservices/pdf/AERA-brochure_web.pdf
37 miles from Warwick

IMS Bios
http://www.animalerc.com/patients/specialties/internalmed.shtml

P.S. I didn't read the bios very well and noticed that both of these specialists were in the FDA clinical trials for a new cushing's drug.

[Truffa's Mom]

YEY!!!! as always Glynda is my super hero....hope the wonderful info she dogged can be used by you and Princess. I'll keep the good vibes foing your way...YEY. I'll keep checking on you two.
Sorry for being MIA, I am OK, enjoying our home in NM, especially because of Nina and her love for the snow, we haven't had as much snow as last year but the few ones that we have had, for sure have been exploited until they have melted on the grass or my hands have frozen after all the fetch and pictures that we have had.
Keep you in my thoughts.

[mypuppy]

Dearet Glynda,

You are just too sweet, caring, helpful and awesome to me really:). I can't thank you enough for doing that for me, and I will certainly be giving them a call soon. Just trying to tie up some other personal lose ends:mad:

Thank you, thank you, thank you from the bottom of my heart.:) You are the best...

Luv you much.

xo Jeanette and my sweet girl

[Cyn719]

Thanks for the picture comments.....enjoyed reading them!! Love my girl!!:)

Xoxoxo

[mypuppy]

Hello sweet friends and babies,

I do not have anything new to report on Princess as of now. She is still on 10mg once daily but with symptoms rebounding in the evening hours.:mad: Still eating like a piggy. I did put a follow up call to my IMS today to discuss a dose increase to perhaps a 5mg compound, my regular IMS was out of the office today:). I did however speak with her backup IMS (whom I simply love and respect). Based on my conversation with her I am somewhat confused though as to what Dechra's monitoring theurapeutic normal range is since she informed me that Dechra has modified those? So I was still under the assumption that a post within 1 - 5 ug/dl was within the normal range, but IMS says Dechra has modified up to a post of 9???:confused: which would mean that Princess's last post of 7.8 was within the new normal range?:confused: WOW! When did I miss that one?

Sorry everyone for my ignorance as always. I strive real hard to understand all this stuff next to all the experts here, but I guess it takes a little longer for some of the little people...LOL...:D

Hope everyone and their babies are doing well these days.

Tight hugs always...xo Jeanette

[labblab]

Hi Jeanette,

It's true that for quite some time, Dechra has "OK'd" a post ACTH result up to 9.1 ug/dl, but only as long as all symptoms are satisfactorily resolved. If not, the target therapeutic range remains 1.45 - 5.4 ug/dl. Here's a summary of the recommendations contained in Dechra's U.S. Product Insert:


Table 2: Action at 10-14 day evaluation

Post-ACTH serum cortisol [ug/dl]:

<1.45 Stop treatment. Re-start at a decreased dose

1.45 to 5.4 Continue on same dose

5.4 to 9.1 EITHER: Continue on current dose if clinical signs are well controlled OR: Increase dose if clinical signs of hyperadrenocorticism are still evident

>9.1 Increase initial dose

So, yes, a result of 7.8 could be considered acceptable by Dechra, but only if Princess was not having rebounding symptoms.

Please take a look at the actual Product Insert for all of Dechra's current monitoring recommendations:

http://www.dechra-us.com/files/dechraUSA/downloads/Product%20inserts/Vetoryl.pdf

Marianne

[addy]

Hey Jeanette,

Sending love and hugs (((((love)))))) ((((hugs)))))

Maybe we will get Princess and Zoe figured out soon and then we can both rejoice:):):):):):)

love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Thank you Marianne.;)

Unfortunately, this makes it the more difficult for my IMS to warrant an increase even though Princess is symptomatic. Seems this has always been my dilemma with my IMS in that she is more inclined in treating the numbers and not the symptoms.

I am due to speak with her next week, and I will definitely be pushing for at least a 5mg increase.

Warmest regards to you and those precious labbies...:)

Love ya, Jeanette

[labblab]

Jeanette, I'm confused as to why this makes it harder to justify a dosing increase. A stim of 7.8 is definitely higher than 5.4, and Princess is definitely still suffering from unresolved symptoms.


5.4 - 9.1 ug/dl ... Increase dose if clinical signs of hyperadrenocorticism are still evident

I can't understand why your IMS would ignore symptoms when making a dosing decision. That just baffles me. :confused:

M.

[mypuppy]

Yes Marianne,

That's what I keep pointing out to her, but she keeps dwelling on the assumption that Princess seems to be highly sensitive to the trilostane and why she is taking a slower approach even though Dechra says to increase the dose. It baffles me too, you are not alone.

Thank you really..

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Oh Addy,

Rejoice doesn't come close to cutting it.:D If these vets can figure out both our girls, rather sooner than later, I'll be doing the "partie dance, partie dance", like on that commercial on tv....LOL...:D

Got your (((((((LOVE))))))))) and ((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))), now get my ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((TIGHT ONES))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))).

Love ya...

xo Jeanette

[addy]

Yup, dancing in the streets!!!!!:):):) You and me whirling!!!!!

The other day on the phone I got the old "we're all getting older" lecture:mad: and how I should focus on the positive:o I admit I have not been doing that, focusing on the positive,

And like I really did not need to be reminded of everyone getting older, I am freaking out about it:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

LOL, Jeanette, I think our vets are sisters:D:D:D:D:D:D

Hugs to you and the most regal of Princesses!!!!!!

Happy Weekend,
love ya
addy

[Cyn719]

Hi girlfriend and precious Princess....just checking in ...I got your text ....:)

Love and hugs xoxo

[addy]

Hey Jeanette,

thank you for stopping by. What is new on the Princess front? My IMS is out of town:(:(:(:(

I sure hope some of this warm weather of ours made it east.

love ya,
addy

[mypuppy]

Oh hi there Addy,

I almost missed your post. Thank you as well for posting. Im not very active here myself as I've got some personal stuff going on as well, but i do check in once in a while. Ive been wanting to post an update on my sweet girl but havent gotten around to it. Princess is still on 10mg once daily, and last week I had gotten the green light finally from IMS to up her dose to another 5mg in the evenings. In the process, I have noticed subtle changes in her symptoms, such as not waking 3 times per night, and now only once per night. Water intake has also decreased a bit. Still drinking but not buckets and buckets. Taking that into consideration, I made the choice to wait this out a little longer and give the 10mg a little while longer before I start the 5mg. Just the same, I at least have the meds in the event I need them. Thank you for asking and stopping in yourself. I will let you know how Princess gets on in the next few weeks.

Love you lots and hang in there with everything.

xo Jeanette

[Cyn719]

Xoxoxo Sweet Princess......seems like you are doing alittle better:)


Hugs xoxoxo

[Altira]

Wishing you continued success! :)

(((((hugs)))))

[mypuppy]

Thanks so much Janis and Cindy,

Trying to enjoy every single second.

Much love to both of you and your babies.

xo Jeanette and my sweet girl

[addy]

thinking of you Jeanette, wanted to tell you that.

hugs to Princess, I hope she is well.

love,
addy

[Cyn719]

Ciao ....

My cell screen has been working on and off brought to be fixed....but it will be back to me by noon tomorrow

Dad is coming off IV saturday
but not good....

Hernia operation next week also

Update you tomorrow

Ciao
Xoxo

[mypuppy]

A very Blessed Easter to my K9Family and all their precious babies.:)

Thinking of you always...:)

Tight hugs,

Jeanette, Princess & my family:)

ps: We need some doggie emoticons...:D

[mypuppy]

Hi to all,

Just wanted to update briefly on my sweet girl since she went for her 3 month acth yesterday.

Post: 7.2

IMS instructed to stay on the 10mg daily and re-check in 3 months. I am happy with these results as they are slightly lower than February's, and Princess is doing well with symptoms right now.

Sending you and your babes a lot of tight hugs and warmest regards. I have been keeping myself updated on all of you...:)

We love you dearly...xo Jeanette and my girl

[addy]

Oh Jeanette, that is wonderful news. I am so glad Princess is doing well on her low dose.

I am so glad you checked in. I think about you two a lot.

love,
addy

[mypuppy]

Thank you my sweet friend, thank you...

:)

[Cyn719]

So happy my neice is doing well:D

Love you Princess:)

Luv Auntie Cindy and cousin Penny xoxo

I texted you back:)

[labblab]

Oh, I'm SOOOO happy to hear that our puppy girl is doing good!!! :) :) :)

This is super news, Jeanette! Please give Princess a big ole neck hug for me, OK?

Love ya both,
Marianne

[mypuppy]

Thank you and we love you Auntie Cindy and cousin Penny,:D

and Auntie Marianne, neck hugs given and enjoyed...:D


xo Jeanette and Princess

[Jenny & Judi in MN]

I would be happy with those results too, congratulations!!

[lulusmom]

At long last! Congratulations!

[Squirt's Mom]

Woohoo!!!!!

At long last! I know you are happy and I am happy for you both!

Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[Harley PoMMom]

Congrats to you and sweet Princess! Sending huge and loving hugs, Lori

[mypuppy]

Awwwww, Leslie, Glynda, Lori, and Jenny..Thank you all so much. I've missed you ladies. Very strange not being a regular lately, but I'm not complaining.

Love you all.

xo Jeanette:)

[mypuppy]

Hi friends,

Has anyone's baby here ever suffered from a hygroma? And you ask "what is a hygroma"? lol. Friday night Princess was laying on the carpet, and I notice a small pool of blood under her. :eek: Of course I freaked. Got her to stand and notice this bulge the size of a peach on her elbow:eek: Freaked again. I called vet and scheduled her for first thing the next morning. I cleansed the area, used topical antibiotic and bandaged it up. Took her in, and basically it is inflammation caused to irritation on her elbow when she lays on hardfloors. She has always had the calluses due to her laying on the hardfloor, but they had never swollen up like that. She is on simplicef for 10 days and topical ointment. Was wondering if anyone knows of any contraption I can use on her so she does not continue to aggravate this, and if it involves ripping up all the hard floors, my husband's not gonna go for that since we installed those when we moved into this house:D lol.

Any comments are appreciated.

Hope you and the babies are all doing well.

We love ya, xo Jeanette and Princess

[labblab]

Thanks to suggestions and links from Addy and Glynda, I found out about the possibility of buying/making some socks on suspenders that will cover sore spots or injuries on paws/legs. Peg had been chewing on her paw, and I needed something to cover it up. Fortunately, we were able to get by with just putting her paw in a short sock that I taped up with surgical tape. But that sock did keep coming off. My next step would have been to give the suspender socks a try. Here's a link to a website that both sells the suspender socks, and also tells you how to make your own:

http://www.dermapaw.com/About_Stay-Put_Socks.html

Hope this may help our girl!!

Marianne

[mypuppy]

OMG, that's awesome! Thanks so much Marianne and Addy and Glynda.

I will go there now.

xo Jeanette

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

Sorry to hear about Princess. Maybe the socks, suspender thing will work. I went out and bought cheap queen size quilts and folded them in large squares and put them down in stratigic places along with some cheap dog pillows.

The house looks a mess but the pups are happy they dont have to lay on the wood floors.:D:D

hope she gets better real soon.

[mypuppy]

Hi again all,

Seems as if every time Princess is starting to show improvement, something else sets her back. Princess threw up 2 days ago with no other symptoms, but ate thereafter and held it. She did great all day yesterday until 4 a.m. in which she vomitted and had some diarrhea.:confused: I have not been giving her Vetoryl in 2 days since her first vomitting episode, and since we just stimmed her a few weeks ago, and her numbers were not in the low range, I refuse to believe this has anything to do with low cortisol, and feel running to get her stimmed will not show much there???

Ive read a lot here about the slippery elm, but I am a bit fried right now with other things as well and can't pinpoint the threads I can go to to get more details on it. Is slippery elm used for both vomitting with diarrhea, or just vomitting, will it stop diarrhea, where may I purchase and how do I administer? In the meantime, is it wise for me to try to feed Princess some boiled chicken with rice or just let her stomach settle? Since I probably can't get the SEB today, is there anything else I can give her for the diarrhea?

Any thoughts are appreciated, and thanks.

xo Jeanette

[addy]

Oh Jeanette, sorry to hear this, poor Princess. Pumpkin can help loose stools - finding the right amount is sometimes tricky, rest her tummy, no food for 12 hours, start back with watery rice porridge mix in the pumpkin, try maybe a tablespoon first, feed small frequent water rice (every 4 hrs) if she holds it down.

That is my arsenal:):):);)

IMS was going to give Zoe pepto bismuth for her helicobacter infection so I know that is okay to give but we have to find the right dose for Princess.

[Squirt's Mom]

Hi Jeanette,

I would hold off on feeding anything solid for 24 hours, then ease her back into solid foods - starting with home made broth, then adding a little rice, then a little meat, then on to her regular feed slowly. And keep with holding the Trilo until she is better...as I'm sure you already know. :)

The SEB will help with diarrhea and nausea as well as loss of appetite. I purchase the NOW Foods brand - http://www.luckyvitamin.com/p-4657-now-foods-slippery-elm-powder-vegetarian-4-oz.

I'm not able to find any in the stores so I have to order online. Others here are finding it health food stores but had no luck with that. I did find some in GNC but it had other ingredients added that I didn't want. ;)

Hope our Princess is feeling much better real soon!
Hugs,
Leslie and the gang

[mypuppy]

Hi Addy and Leslie,

Thanks gals for all the suggestions. The SEB seems to be the ideal fix for upset tummies. I believe you even swear by it Leslie. When I get it should I give the suggested dose on the package or do I need to figure out the right dose for my girl based on her weight as well? Sorry, but I don't want to screw it up:eek: And I do know I must give 2 hours prior or after any other meds, specially Vetoryl. Princess seems to feel a little better and has not thrown up again or had diarrhea after the 4 a.m episode. She even parked herself in the kitchen and was looking up at her cookie jar on top of the fridge..:p She is so cute when she does that, but it was tough love today and it broke my heart not to give her delish treats.:(

She is now resting in her bed in my bedroom. Please pray she gets a good nights sleep, and a long one at that. Momma needs her sleep too.:D

Well my sweet ladies, thank you again for loving us sooo very much, as we do you and your babes.

Tight hugs and night night. xo Jeanette:D

[labblab]

Jeanette, here's a link that Glynda has posted elsewhere that gives directions on preparation and dosing of slippery elm.

Hi Cindy,

Do not buy the liquid...you want to get the capsules. Use the link below for directions on how to make SEB soup/tea. You can find the proper doseage for Penny's weight too. FYI, a heaping teaspoon is approximately 6 capsules. Using a spoon is difficult so I would recommend a large syringe.

http://www.holvet.net/slippery_soup.html
Hope you girls get a good night's sleep!

Marianne

[addy]

Hi Jeanette,

Checking in with you to see how Princess is. I sure hope eveything is okay.

You know me, worry wart Addy:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[mypuppy]

Hello friends,

Does anyone have a list of longterm effects of Vetoryl?

Princess is doing well so far on the digestive front, no vomitting or diarrhea, and is eating all her meals and treats. She has however been very hesitant to stand and lay down and limps a bit. Another thing I noticed is she seems a little confused lately when I call her. She does not react in the same and quick way she normally does. Also, and I can only say this in this way, but she poops as she is running, when she would normally squat.:confused: The last strange thing she has been doing is she seems to choke up/gag/cough (???) when she gets a little excited.

My mind keeps racing thinking low cortisol? arthritis? sprain? tear? addisons? lyme? kidneys/liver?

I have continued to withhold her Vetoryl until I get some more answers.

Warmest regards to all and the babies.

xo Jeanette

[lulusmom]

Hi J.

Nice to see an update from you. Please see my comments in blue below:


Does anyone have a list of longterm effects of Vetoryl?

I'm unaware of any long term side effects from Vetoryl but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Based on our own experience here, I suspect the muscle tremors is a chronic side effect. When a pharm company is conducting clinical trials, they are required to list absolutely every side effect noted during testing. Unfortunately, they don't isolate those side effects, like tremors and listlessness, as to causation, such as initial side effects due to low cortisol as opposed to long term/chronic side effects. Believe me, I've searched high and low for any new long term studies that might have information a lot of the side effects we've seen here that aren't caused by low cortisol. i.e. loss of appetite, weight loss, tremors and general malaise.


Princess is doing well so far on the digestive front, no vomitting or diarrhea, and is eating all her meals and treats. She has however been very hesitant to stand and lay down and limps a bit. Another thing I noticed is she seems a little confused lately when I call her. She does not react in the same and quick way she normally does. Also, and I can only say this in this way, but she poops as she is running, when she would normally squat.:confused:

If I were to take a guess, I'd say that Princess may be experiencing some arthritic aches and pains that makes it difficult for her stand, lay down, walk and squat to poop. You may want to bring this to your vet's attention. I'm not sure about her confusion but pain could be a factor.

The last strange thing she has been doing is she seems to choke up/gag/cough (???) when she gets a little excited.

Has your vet checked Princess' heart? My two Maltese boys with congestive heart failure will start choking and gagging if they get excited. They will also start the backward sneezing/snorting after they finish inhaling their food.

My mind keeps racing thinking low cortisol? arthritis? sprain? tear? addisons? lyme? kidneys/liver?

I have continued to withhold her Vetoryl until I get some more answers.

Do you have a call into the vet to get those answers?

Warmest regards to all and the babies.

xo Jeanette

Warmest regards to you and yours too.

Glynda

[labblab]

Jeanette, I'm so sorry to hear that Princess has developed these new problems. When you've withheld the Vetoryl at other times, have you ever seen any of these types of problems? I'm just wondering since it's now been about a week since she's been off it, right? Overall, I know these are not typical symptoms of high cortisol, but it does sound as though they've started now that she's been entirely off the med for several days. And it may be the case that the initial digestive problems weren't related to the Vetoryl at all.

I know it's counter-intuitive to think she might be better off WITH the Vetoryl, but I'm just wondering...:confused:

Marianne

[mypuppy]

Hi Glynda,
How are you? Been a while since we have communicated. Glad you came along with your comments, thanks doll.

Shame there is no more information on longterm use of Vetoryl. Considering we know what the short term effects can be, I'm guessing the longterm studies will perhaps show even more serious ones in the near future. Ughhhh....

Princess has never been evaluated for any heart conditions considering there has never been a reason to, but I guess it's something to add to my list for my vet.

I too, am thinking Princess is developing some form of arthritic pain, and why she is hesitant to stand. I do hear her moan a couple of times when she switches her position in bed at night, or again, could she have sprained something while running in the yard?

Yes, I am scheduling Princess for either end of this week or Monday, and will let you know how we make out. Would you recommend I do a chemistry profile on her, or should I just request an xray of her back legs?

Thanks for stopping bye. It's always a welcome surprise.

Luv ya, xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi again Marianne,

No, Princess has never experienced these symptoms all those other times she was off the Vetoryl. As for high cortisol, I do not know either because if her cortisol was high wouldn't she be drinking excessively, and as I said, she is barely touching her water bowl.

So let me get this straight, you feel if I restart her Vetoryl, her symptoms may improve? I just figured to keep her off because she is not ravenous with her appetitie right now or drinking and well I always assumed low cortisol unmasks arthritis, and therefore, why I am giving this a while longer before I re-introduce her Vetoryl so long as she's not uncomfortable with cushings symptoms.

I spoke to a friend today, and she scared the pants off of me saying Princess could be becoming toxic and going into kidney failure:eek: Huh? Why on earth would she even think that based on her symptoms? What are the common symptoms of kidney failure? I'm very scared, and I'm sorry, I know these are issues I need to address with my vet, but it doesn't hurt to vent in the meantime.:(

Please everyone, pray my girl will recover from whatever it is that's bothering her. Thanks to all for just being there ALWAYS for me and my sweet girl--she really is sweet as apple pie, if not sweeter.

Love you all. Tight hugs,

Jeanette

[addy]

Oh Jeanette, you have my prayers and hugs and love, both you and sweet, sweet Princess.

I think my first thought was as Marianne's but the not drinking water has me stumped. When Princess had higher cortisol did she drink alot of water?

Sweetie, I am so sorry your baby girl is feeling badly. I hope the vet has some ideas to help Princess.

I love you both very much, I wish I could help.

[lulusmom]

Hi again,

A dog has to lose the majority of their kidney function before they start to show symptoms. Those symptoms would include dilute urine, excessive drinking and peeing, nausea with loss of appetite. The latter two symptoms are due to a build up phosphorus in the gut. If you are concerned about this, then have the vet do a mini chemistry which provides kidney and liver values. It's cheaper than a full chemistry. I usually have these done for my cushdogs periodically.

Lowering cortisol does unmask arthritis and if that is the problem you are dealing with, withholding the Vetoryl should make a difference; however, sometimes it can take forever for cortisol to increase enough to make that difference. I'm glad you will be taking Princess in to see the vet because she should be able to determine if Princess has arthritis or hip dysplasia.

Glynda

[Harley PoMMom]

Keeping you and sweet Princess in my thoughts and prayers. Waiting anxiously with you for the test results and hoping our precious girl feels better soon.

Love and hugs,
Lori

[labblab]

Hi Jeanette,

I definitely agree that it's a good idea for the vet to take a look at our girl. But I'm just wanting to clarify whether these changes appeared before you stopped the Vetoryl (aside from the vomiting and diarrhea that is -- I know that's why you did stop the Vetoryl). But did you see the limping and difficulty standing beforehand? If not -- if they've just started within the last week -- then it seems to me that it would be odd if arthritis were suddenly being unmasked AFTER you stopped the Vetoryl (and especially since her ACTH three weeks ago was up at 7.2). To me, that just points to a different culprit (and not particularly to kidney problems -- don't know why your friend is suspecting that). So I do think the best thing is to let the vet have a look. We'll be really anxious to hear what she says!

Please give Princess some extra hugs for me,
Marianne

[mypuppy]

Marianne,

This started while she was already "off" the Vetoryl. And yes, the only reason I discontinued her Vetoryl was merely due to her vomitting and diarrhea episode that one morning, so do not know what happened to have caused these other sudden issues?

I will definitely be taking her to vet, but in order to prep for that appointment, are there any pertinent test requests I should make while I am there? If it is arthritis, how will they determine, just by physical examination or will they recommend x-rays of her hind legs, and if not, should I recommend them to x-ray them anyway? As for hip dysplasia, would the same hold true for diagnosis, x-rays of both her legs?

Thanks to all...

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Dearest Lori,

Thank you for being here for me and my girl.

We love you much.

xo Jeanette

[labblab]

Boy, unfortunately I am stumped as to what is going on. But if these issues started suddenly this week after you had already stopped the Vetoryl, I remain doubtful that arthritis would be the cause. So I would not be too surprised if it turns out that your vet does not push for a bunch of x-rays right now, especially depending on the outcome of her actual physical examination of Princess and manipulation of her legs and hips. I'm kinda wondering if there could be something GI in nature going on that is causing her discomfort when she moves around, and the gagging, and the strange pooping behavior. If so, your vet might opt for an ultrasound instead of x-rays. And I'm certain she'll do a panel of her blood chemistries and cell counts.

Does her poop look normal, even though her pooping behavior is odd? One other wildcard test you might want to discuss with your vet is the specialized blood test for pancreatitis (the cPL test). Cushpups are vulnerable to pancreatitis, and as we've discovered from several members here, overt symptoms may be vague and not overly obvious. But various forms of GI distress, including discomfort when moving around, are associated. When my Peg was diagnosed last summer, it was based on vomiting and nasty diarrhea. But those were her only outward symptoms, and she never lost her appetite at all. Her routine blood levels were all normal including her routine pancreatic enzymes, so her vet and I were shocked when the cPL test came back very highly elevated. There are two versions of the cPL test, and one is a "snap" version that your IMS may be able to run right while Princess is in the office. It gives less information than the other version that has to be read by a lab, but I think it may be cheaper. Just something you might want to discuss with your vet. Because if Princess does have some smoldering pancreatitis going on, you may want to both resume the Vetoryl and also make some very specific dietary changes. I may be totally off-base with this thought, but wanted to throw it out there anyway.

Marianne

And just thought of a P.S. to add...can't remember whether Princess has ever had thyroid issues or is taking a thyroid supplement? Can you remind us about that?

[Rebelsmom]

Hi Jeanette, just wanted to stop in and say that I'm thinking of you and Princess and I hope you find some answers and solutions soon. Sending you warms thoughts and hugs.

Love always,
Melissa

[mypuppy]

Wow Marianne,

So overwhelming, but thanks for putting in out there either way.

I understand you feel this may possibly have nothing to do with an arthritic problem, but how do we explain her limping? Interesting you asked though about her poop, and this just dawned on me because I only saw this once, but last week as I was doing poop patrol in the yard, I found a rather strange looking poop which I had never seen in all my years with Princess. I hate to give a vivid description, but it's the only way someone will possibly know what I am talking about. When I picked up her business it looked as if it was enclosed in a clear casing, in the same way of say a sausage?? :eek:and it was very mustard like color.:eek: But it's been fine ever since.

As for thyroid, Princess has never been on thyroid medication.

We shall see where her appointment takes us next week.

Warm regards,

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Dear all, again!

I just walked in from doctor appointment for mom, and Princess's hygroma was bleeding again--there were large stains of blood on the carpet at top of stairs. Now I am thinking if perhaps Princess may have developed some type of infection from her hygroma. Her open sore had healed, but seems she has aggravated it again. Could infection cause the symtoms which Princess has been exhibiting? I did STOP the Simplicef back when she vomitted thinking it would just continue to aggravate her stomach, so this is why I'm thinking she may have infection.

I was able to move Princess's appointment to tomorrow instead of Tuesday. I don't think she nor I can wait much longer than that.

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Baffled here!

Received a call back from my IMS. She basically told me to give Princess Tramadol for pain and to follow up on the hygroma with my gp:mad: She did not even give me an indication of what she thought could be going on with Princess, did not discuss having any tests done, not concerned Princess is not drinking so long as she is eating fine, did not discuss possibility of arthritis or sprain, and lastly did not see it necessary to bring Princess in since it's not the "cushings". WOW! REALLY!

Love always, feeling very yipped, Jeanette

[addy]

are you sure we dont have the same IMS? That is how I was blown off with Zoe and her paw chewing and allergies. Their theory is"if it is not Cushings" and if it is not "internal "because they are, for crying out loud "INTERNAL MEDICINE" specialists and can only deal with the INSIDE-:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: The words still ring in my ears:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I am still mad all these months later, Jeanette, so I can understand how you feel.

But I dont have a solution for you. Why would an infection make her limp? I just dont know, sweetie.

[GabbySue]

Jeanette

I can see that reaction from the IMS, one time I asked one of my equine vets about a cat at the barn and he said "what are you asking me for, take it to a vet" Uh ,helloooo I believe you went to VET school too??

I would definitely have them run a panel for Tick diseases, just to rule that out. So many times it can cause increased confusion and even behavior issues. Do you have Princess on a probiotic even after she is on the antibiotic? (for at least a week) and have you de-wormed her recently? Bring in a stool specimin just in case. A mucous covered stool in indicative of an irrititated lower intestine. I would as the vet to do xrays and see if there are any arthritic changes going on, maybe even in the spine itself. Spondylosis comes to mind,or a more temporary condition that makes the lower back/tail area painful called Cauda Equina, that one is treated with pain meds and anti-inflammatories, but both conditions can make going to the bathroom more difficult. If it's arthritis then Adequan and Tramadol with an anti-inflammatory are somethings that we've used on our dogs before, though I usually add some Pepcid to protect their tummy from the NSAID.
Hope Princess gets some relief soon and you get some answers, it always feels like the worst part, the not knowing.

[mypuppy]

Hi friends,

I have a few other questions before I take Princess to her gp appointment tonight, if anyone cares to comment.

Re: Tramadol: is it only for pain or is it an antiflammatory as well? Princess took Demaraxx 2 years ago for what seemed to be an arthritic episode, and it worked wonders without any stomach side effects. My concern is that perhaps Tramadol may cause stomach upset considering she has a sensitive stomach, but do not know if the Demaraxx is for pain as well? Does anyone here have a preference as to which is the lesser of the 2 evils when it comes to digestive upset?

Lastly, when Princess developed her hygroma her gp wanted to give her a cortizone injection, but I was opposed due to the cushings. Does anyone feel the cortizone would benefit her at this point and do the benefits outweigh the risks? I'm thinking my gp may suggest the cortizone again at today's visit since her hygroma has flared up again, and I'm thinking if it may also avoid any digestive issues if put on another round of antibiotics?

Sorry for all the questions as always, but any comments do help.

Love to all,

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Dear GabbySue,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Honestly, I'd hate to go to the vet today and start jumping into a dozen tests and end up with a very hefty bill. I think I will start with the most obvious with a physical exam to determine any arthritic or abdominal pain, and address her hygroma as well. I really do so hope it is just a simple fix with pain management and anti flammatories as you mentioned. Oh, and by the way, I agree, a vet is a vet, why couldn't my IMS just answer more of my questions?

Thanks again so kindly,

Tight hugs, Jeanette


Jeanette

I can see that reaction from the IMS, one time I asked one of my equine vets about a cat at the barn and he said "what are you asking me for, take it to a vet" Uh ,helloooo I believe you went to VET school too??

I would definitely have them run a panel for Tick diseases, just to rule that out. So many times it can cause increased confusion and even behavior issues. Do you have Princess on a probiotic even after she is on the antibiotic? (for at least a week) and have you de-wormed her recently? Bring in a stool specimin just in case. A mucous covered stool in indicative of an irrititated lower intestine. I would as the vet to do xrays and see if there are any arthritic changes going on, maybe even in the spine itself. Spondylosis comes to mind,or a more temporary condition that makes the lower back/tail area painful called Cauda Equina, that one is treated with pain meds and anti-inflammatories, but both conditions can make going to the bathroom more difficult. If it's arthritis then Adequan and Tramadol with an anti-inflammatory are somethings that we've used on our dogs before, though I usually add some Pepcid to protect their tummy from the NSAID.
Hope Princess gets some relief soon and you get some answers, it always feels like the worst part, the not knowing.

[mypuppy]

Addy,
Seems there's a lot of this stuck-up attitude going on lately with these "I ONLY TREAT YOUR INSIDES" vets...LOL. For crying out loud is right. I'd like to send them all off to Oompa Loompa Land andt live in harmony with the wang doodles and vermicious kemits...:D:D:D

As for the limping, I agree, infection would not cause that. Oh my dear Addy, the trials and tribulations of trying to figure out our babies. We certainly try our best.

Thanks for all your comforting words, they mean a lot.

Luv ya, xo Jeanette


are you sure we dont have the same IMS? That is how I was blown off with Zoe and her paw chewing and allergies. Their theory is"if it is not Cushings" and if it is not "internal "because they are, for crying out loud "INTERNAL MEDICINE" specialists and can only deal with the INSIDE-:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: The words still ring in my ears:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I am still mad all these months later, Jeanette, so I can understand how you feel.

But I dont have a solution for you. Why would an infection make her limp? I just dont know, sweetie.

[lulusmom]

Wow Marianne,

Interesting you asked though about her poop, and this just dawned on me because I only saw this once, but last week as I was doing poop patrol in the yard, I found a rather strange looking poop which I had never seen in all my years with Princess. I hate to give a vivid description, but it's the only way someone will possibly know what I am talking about. When I picked up her business it looked as if it was enclosed in a clear casing, in the same way of say a sausage?? :eek:and it was very mustard like color.:eek:

Jeanette, since Marianne is traveling at the moment, I thought I'd drop by to offer my thoughts on things. Let's face it, there is no way to candy coat what poop looks like and if we did, we might not be able to share our experience with like kind of turds. :D What you describe sounds like mucous encased feces which is not uncommon if there is an intestinal disturbance. My Buster, as well as a few of my precious pets who have passed had chronic colitis so I am very familiar with what you are describing. I'd see it one day and the next day things were back to normal or things would go downhill, requiring a trip to the vet. Sounds like things are back to normal for Princess.



Now I am thinking if perhaps Princess may have developed some type of infection from her hygroma. Her open sore had healed, but seems she has aggravated it again. Could infection cause the symtoms which Princess has been exhibiting?

I'm not sure you are dealing with a bacterial/systemic infection from a hygroma that would cause the symptoms you mention. Bloodwork would need to be done to determine if this is the case. In my experience, inert dogs who lie around, especially on hard surfaces have problems with pressure points that become aggravated and the problem is usually isolated to the area of the pressure sore. Did you ask your vet if s/he thought the hygroma was grossly infected?


Baffled here!

Received a call back from my IMS. She basically told me to give Princess Tramadol for pain and to follow up on the hygroma with my gp:mad: She did not even give me an indication of what she thought could be going on with Princess, did not discuss having any tests done, not concerned Princess is not drinking so long as she is eating fine, did not discuss possibility of arthritis or sprain, and lastly did not see it necessary to bring Princess in since it's not the "cushings". WOW! REALLY!

Aside from the fact that your IMS didn't emote good bedside manners, but then again, I don't recall that she ever had them, her response is not surprising. If she were a compassionate and understanding type, she could have told you that since none of the symptoms you laid out on the table seemed to be endocrine related, it would be logical and certainly more economical for Princess to see your gp vet. It's all about attitude and presentation with these vets and your IMS' attitude has always been less than desirable. How's that for being diplomatic? :D



Re: Tramadol: is it only for pain or is it an antiflammatory as well? Princess took Demaraxx 2 years ago for what seemed to be an arthritic episode, and it worked wonders without any stomach side effects. My concern is that perhaps Tramadol may cause stomach upset considering she has a sensitive stomach, but do not know if the Demaraxx is for pain as well? Does anyone here have a preference as to which is the lesser of the 2 evils when it comes to digestive upset?

Lastly, when Princess developed her hygroma her gp wanted to give her a cortizone injection, but I was opposed due to the cushings. Does anyone feel the cortizone would benefit her at this point and do the benefits outweigh the risks? I'm thinking my gp may suggest the cortizone again at today's visit since her hygroma has flared up again, and I'm thinking if it may also avoid any digestive issues if put on another round of antibiotics?

Tramadol is an analgesic pain reliever that blocks the pain receptors in the brain. It is not an anti-inflammatory. Deramaxx is a NSAID (nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory) and a pain reliever. These can be used by themselves or together. Nausea, vomiting and diarrhea are listed as side effects for both drugs; however, they are higher on the list for NSAIDS.

I've always been leary of NSAID's but I have tramadol and Metacam for Jojo with excellent results and no side effects. Other members have also reported good results with no side effects. As a matter of fact, I don't recall any dogs on the forum who had several gastroinestinal problems with an NSAID. My memory sucks so I'm hoping other members can validate or invalidate me.

I personally would forgo the cortizone shot if possible. If there is an active infection, I don't believe cortizone would be appropriate. I think the most important thing to do is protect the pressure sore(s) from further and any future aggravation by keeping Princess away from hard surfaces and provide extra padding while healing. Was the hygroma bad enough for your vet to have to open it up and drain it?

I hope I've covered everything you put out there but if not, let us know and we'll try as best we can to help.

Glynda

P.S. I am always preaching about how we should never place blind faith in our vets and learning the value of doing our own research on any pill we put in our dogs' mouths. My counter looks like a pharmacy so I've done a ton of research over the years and I'm always happy to share what I've learned; however, I heartily recommend that everybody do their own research because knowing what a drug is used for, how it works, what side effects to watch for and what drugs it should not be given with can eliminate undue risk if our vets should slip up. Most often our vets do a pretty good job of safeguarding our dogs but I think we've all seen that a lot of vets have failed their patients. Thank goodness for the internet and the easy reading sites available to us these days.

[mypuppy]

Glynda,

Wow! You covered everything and then some, and now I feel more than ready for tonights appointment. Thank you so much...:) I have a very bad habit of saying "thank you" a whole lot, sorry..lol.

As for Princess's hygroma, it was the size of a peach when it first flared up at the end of May, and filled with pus and blood. Her gp drained it, but I guess it was not enough to alleviate it completely, and now we are back to the peach size and bleeding again. I bandage it every day, but she continues to aggravate it by always favoring laying on that side. I try to get her to stand and turn on the other side, but she has become a little stubborn lately, and not budging when I try to switch her position...I think she has become a little frightened of what I will be doing to her, specially since all she has been seing me lately is me coming at her with ointments, gauzes, bandages in my hand. Poor baby..:(

BTW, no comment on your comments on my "lovely" IMS--you are absolutely 100% right in saying its all about attitude, and she's got one that of an ice-cube...:eek: For some odd reason, it gets really chilly when she is in that exam room--:D

Well wish us luck tonight, and I will try to post an update thereafter.

Luv ya, xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi again everyone,

Finally just got back from Princess's gp appointment. Her hygroma is infected. He drained it, and they put her on antibiotics again (Cipro).

As for her limping and trouble standing and laying down, he agreed at her age it is due to arthritis. He gave her the Tramadol for pain. Apparently, the Deramaxx is no longer available. He didn't recommend any further testing for now unless we see no improvement in the weeks to come and after she has completed her oral meds.

I want to thank each of you for your wonderful support these past several days in trying to help me figure out what was going on. I sure do hope this is all there is to it for now, as I do need to go revisit the cushings soon and restart her Vetoryl before we head into more problems.

I love you all deeply...

Tight ones. xo Jeanette and my girl

[Truffa's Mom]

Praying for you and specially for Princess.

Truffa had the same symptoms that you describe
*very hesitant to stand and lay down
*limped a sometimes
*she pooped as she was walking (as she was getting older she sometimes pooped when she was trying to seat down into my van....the poor baby was soooo embarrassed:)
*she seemed to choke up/gag/cough (???)

and she wasn't on Vetoryl, so I am guessing Princess symptoms are not Vetoryl related.

Hope your GP has better answers than your IMS (wow I can hear my blood boiling over those memories of such kind of practitioners ).

Tramadol was the better option for Truffa for pain relief (surgery, pancreatitis, etc), and I used Boswellia and Curcumin, as well as homeopathic's for her arthritic pains and she was pain free and not limping. As for her choking, never knew what it was, we checked her heart and was OK, and me being a Holistic nut, I decided to strengthen her lungs with Chinese herbs and also a "Hound Honey Heart Syrup" (from http://www.pawhealer.com/) for her cough/choking, and they truly disappear.

But as Glynda said, I am just expressing my experiences, and I am encouraging every one to do his own research, and follow what they feel is best for them and their pups.

I am sending you tons of love and whispering into Princess heart "please get well sweetheart, we love you ".

[addy]

Oh Jeanette, I am so relieved. I rushed to the computer as soon as I got home. Did you happen to ask about Princess not drinking any water? I just wondered. Not to make you worry, dont worry about it.:o:o:o:o

I was trying not to laugh at how diplomatic Glynda was writing, I love reading her threads, she just gets right at it, I crack up. I love that girl.:):):):)

Please, dear friend, give Princess a really big, long petting and scratching treat from me.

Holding you close, both of you. Still saying prayers.

[mypuppy]

OMG, Marcela,

How very surprising and happy to see you here again after so long. I lost hope I would never hear from you again, and here you are, as always offering all your support, valuable resources, friendship and prayers. Thank you my sweet and very missed friend. As you can see, Princess has been going through a rough patch right now, but as you very well know this is how it will be. It is hard to digest at times though. So interesting Truffa experienced same type of issues my girl is having lately. I really do not know "yet" what to make of it. But on a much lighter note, I gave her her first dose of Tramadol today, and within an hour I noticed some improvement. I feel she is still NOT out of the woodwork between the lameness and the hygroma, but she even drank a little more water today, and even showed interest in wanting to play ball with my little girl. I did stop her for fear of aggravating whatever is going on with her legs or pain?

Oh my friend, how glad you came along to show your love and concern. It was a very welcome surprise, honestly.

How are you and your loved ones doing?

Take care of you and Warmest regards and much love always.

xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi there my Addy,

You will be a little happy when I tell you Princess has finally started to drink water. I do not know if perhaps her antibiotics may be making her thirsty, but she is drinking now, thank God. And to answer your question if I had asked my gp about the water, I completely forgot, but I had asked my IMS prior to going to gp, and wow, I was quite taken when she told me she's not concerned about her not drinking so long as she's eating? Huh? I always thought we could live without food, but NOT WITHOUT water? At least that's what I've always heard. Ugh, that one! Aside from drinking water today, she got up several time, still limping and struggling, but she got up, and she wanted to play ball with my little girl. I guess Tramadol really works. Thank God for drugs after all. LOL...

Well my friend, this is it for tonight. Going to her her last dose of Tramadol and then putting everyone to sleep, including myself. It's been a longgg week.

I love ya. kissies to the Zoe.

xo Jeanette

ps: And I love Glynda a whole lot too...I wish she'd take a trip up and accompany me to Princess's next INTERNAL ONLY Dr. appointment, so she can continue practicing her great language skills....LOLLLLLL

[Altira]

Hi Jeanette...

I just read thru this page. What a time you had this last few days. I'm glad the GV didn't find anything horribly urgent. Yes if she's taking meds for infection, now is not the time to test. But I would do it soon.

If I understood correctly your having a problem with her skin bleeding? Have you ever tried Vetericyn - wound and infection spray? You just spray it on and let it sit for 30 seconds. That's all it takes. If they lick it off after that it doesn't matter. It heals stuff so fast. I know someone who's horse was bit by a snake. It got infected and nothing was helping. It was like that for months. Then she used this spray and it started healing up the next day and was gone in a week! It worked great for my Neeka too.

[Cyn719]

Hi girlfriend....just came on to ask the Angels question and read your posts.....tramadol has been penny's life for awhile now....praying Princess feels better and better each day....yup same thing with penny ....they stopped using derramax that's when we started rimadyl and dasaquin......got your text....yesterday was better for eating...the standing up and trying to walk is awful.....thank you! Text me tomorrow.....hope you sleep well....

Hugs xoxo

[mypuppy]

Hi Janis,

So nice of you to post. I have never heard of that spray you mentioned, but her gp told me to get a spray called "Bactine". Im guessing it must be the equivalent to yours? I have been using that in conjunction with neosporin. Thanks for sharing your info.

She did well today, and has spent most of her day hanging out in the living room with us against laying in her bed in my room. Still limping a bit, but her hygroma swelling has gone down a lot and it didnt drain at all today. Thank goodness for drugs sometimes.

Glad you stopped by to visit us. Hope you and your loved ones are well.

Luv ya..xo Jeanette

[frijole]

Wanted you to know that Annie used the Vetericyn spray also. There were two varieties - one was a mist and the other was a spray gel and that is what I purchased. They told me (the vet's front desk) that it was so good they used it themselves. I cut my arm up pretty good on some chicken wire while gardening (had six long lines etched in my arm). I sprayed it on and it healed very quickly. :) So I can attest to it working on Annie and myself. Kim

[lulusmom]

I would recommend that any petowners have Vetricyn in their little black bag. :D I found out about it at a pet expo three or four years ago. We had a rescue with severely amputated back legs and his little butt was always scraped up and bloody. I talked to the marketing people for Vetricyn, which is manufactured down the road from me, and they donated several bottles to our rescue. We were amazed by how well and how fast it helped the healing process. I've used it for skin problems, scrapes, cuts, you name it. I use it on my boo-boos too. It is non toxic so if a dog licks it, it won't hurt them. You can also use it as a hand sanitizer. You can buy regular strength OTC online or you can ask your vet to either order some for you or ask for a prescription for the veterinary strength.

[Cyn719]

Just checking in on princess:).my vet told me about that spray..suppose to be very good......penny's elbows and toes are just big calluses and are always bleeding...going to try it.....give that sweet girl a lot of kisses for me:)

Love ya xoxo

[mypuppy]

Thanks all. I wonder if anyone had a bottle on hand, and list the ingredients here in order for me to compare if they are equal to the Bactine spray my gp told me to get? Just curious!

Thanks all for all your inputs. I'm writing the name on my list of things to get either way, right along with the SEB.

Love you all.

xo Jeanette

[lulusmom]

Wow, Bactine is a blast from the past. That stuff has been around since I was a kid with skinned up knees, and that was a half a century ago. :D Bactine and Vetricyn do not share any common ingredients. Active ingredients in Bactine are Benzalkonium and Lidocaine. Ingredients in OTC Vetricyn are Electrolyzed Water (H2OSodium Chloride (NaCISodium Hypochlorite (NaOCI& Hypochlorous Acid (HOCI)(0.003%)

[mypuppy]

Glynda,
You crack me up:D. Well that's just great, now I've got gp's who recommend ancient drugs on my girl....lol...no offense to you...haaaaaa....im right behind ya. On that note, I will roll with the times and will definitely acquire the other spray. haaaaa

Love ya darling.

xo J.

[addy]

thinking of you and Princess:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

just dont tell me you still drink OVALTINE

hey, wait, I dont think I spelled that right:D:p;):o

[mypuppy]

Addy,

You too "quack" me up, just like all the "quacks" taking care of Princess...haaaaa.

Princess is hanging in there, but can't say she's wonderful. Must try to get her in soon is all I can say. Very hard time right now on all levels. Please pray, that's all.

And I believe you did spell OVALTINE correctly, but I'm more of a "TANG" kinda lady..lol. Remember TANG? haaaa..

Thinking of you and Zoe also.

With much love. xo Jeanette

[mypuppy]

Hi all,

You are probably wondering how my girl has been doing. She is doing ok, aside from the limping and trouble standing and laying. The Tramadol doesn't seem to be helping in that department, but I am wondering if it's because I have not been giving her a high dose. I just learned today I can give her up to 6 pills per day, and I have only been giving her 2.5 daily. I just get scared of side effects. Does anyone know if there are long term effects of Tramadol?

I put a call in to the gp to ask what our next intervention will be if we do not see any improvement. I am thinking that will be to x-ray to check for arthritis or any other orthopedic problem as Glynda suggested. If this turns out to be an arthritic problem, has anyone ever used Adequan injections on their baby, and were they effective? And again, are there any short/long term side effects of these injections? Or what other arthritis meds has anyone used?

Sorry for always bombarding you with so many questions,"knowledge is power" so they say. :D

Thank you all dearly,

xo Jeanette

[Altira]

No don't over load on the tramadol! It will only make her dopey and seem worse because she wont be able to walk right. I hate tramadol. Etogesic works best for Kira. I don't know about the shots. Hopefully someone here does. And X-rays? Well I can never see anything much in x-rays where bones are concerned but it's better then nothing. I would do it. ;)

[Casey's Mom]

Hi Jeanette - I used Adequan with Casey for 3 years and had great results and no side effects - the vet assistant gave her a monthly shot. It has been used in the horse world for many years and is known as a wonder drug there for arthritis issues. I also used L-Glutamine, Salmon Oil and Glucosamine Chondroitin as supplements.

Hope this helps!

[mypuppy]

Hi Ellen,

Thanks for sharing your experience with the shots. The IMS told me it is not a good idea to give yet until we have diagnosed her problem because it can be a sports injury against arthritis. I don't know which is worse? :eek: For now, she wants her on anti-inflammatory (Rimadyl) for 10 days and see how that goes.

Will update once I get them.

Thanks again and warmest regards to you and your loved ones.

xo Jeanette

[Spiceysmum]

Hi Jeanette,

Thinking of you and Princess, as always.

Linda xx

[addy]

Me too Jeanette, thinking of you and Princess

[Squirt's Mom]

Just stopping by to give some hugs and belly rubs! :)

[mypuppy]

Awww Leslie,

Belly rubs given and hugs taken...and boy did they feel good.:D

I love you and the babes.

xo Jeanette and Princess

[mypuppy]

Sweet Addy,

Right back at ya lady..

Tight ones...xo Jeanette and the Princess

[Truffa's Mom]

Tons of healing kisses from Nina and angelic sweetness from Truffa.
Thinking of you both